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New York State Thruway

Started by Zeffy, September 22, 2014, 12:00:32 AM

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machias

Quote from: amroad17 on October 01, 2014, 05:17:15 AM


During my earlier post, I forgot to mention how "free" I-90's exits could be renumbered.  Like with I-87, I really have no preference as to having the exits begin with "1" or "349" as long as they are mile-based.  However, with the first few exits in close proximity, I would number them in sequence (1N-S, 2, 3 or 349N-S, 350, 351) until the mileposts synch up again.  I do not mind lettered suffixes until they start getting to F, G, H, or even I (Chicago? Kansas City? Even Cincinnati with an Exit 1G on I-75?).   IIRC, the first six or seven exits on "free" I-90 are within the first four miles from the Thruway to Albany.

One of the things that has made NYSDOT hesitant about renumbering to distance based interchange numbers is the creation of lots of lettered suffixes in the five boroughs and on Long Island. I have always been a proponent of what you just described, for example on I-87 coming out of New York: number the interchanges sequentially until the sequential numbers overtake the mileposts, then convert to distance based. This would work perfectly on the I-87 portion of the Thruway.


vdeane

Quote from: cl94 on September 30, 2014, 07:47:01 PM
Spring Valley likely isn't on the list because it has highway-speed E-ZPass. Why eliminate the congestion there (none) when you can get rid of the 4 busiest barrier tolls on the system at places prone to backups? Also more of a cost savings when jobs get eliminated. We're talking millions of dollars that don't have to go toward salaries.

When they do any changes to the ticket system, the precedent is to do it west of Buffalo first, then move it elsewhere because it's easier to implement on a shorter (67 miles vs. 380 miles) section of highway. Could they do it all at once? Certainly. But it would be a more immediate savings if they got rid of as much as possible as early as possible. Since each ticket section has to change at once, it makes more sense to do the short one first.

If/when it does all change to AET, there won't be a reason why NYSTA couldn't add intermediate exits to relieve congestion. I could picture them between 16 and 17 (Cornwall), 23 and 24 (NY 85, direct ramps to Northway/US 20), 31 and 32 (west of Utica, NY 49), 46 and 47 (NY 36), 48A and 49 (Akron/Newstead and central Clarence/Lancaster), and 56 and 57 (US 20/62).
Spring Valley still has manned cash booths though.  Since passenger cars are exempt from that toll, and trucks probably have E-ZPass, that means it's just tourists with boats and RVs.  Why not close the cash booths when the surrounding booths go AET?  Nothing says they can only convert four barriers to AET.  I still want to see how the Harriman to I-87 NB movement is handled with AET.

There have been plans to add interchanges even without AET.  The Thruway has long had proposals for interchanges at NY 88 and Union St (between exits 46 and 47).  I don't know what happened to the NY 88 idea, but the Union St one was defeated by Chili residents (never mind that they would be the primary benefactors and they currently don't have good access to the Thruway; my aunt an uncle have more direct access to the Thruway now, even though they live two and a half hours away, than they ever did in Chili despite being close to it; they were sad to see that proposal die).

There is a proposed interchange near Tuxedo that would have connected to NY 17A and Orange CR 106 (part of the proposed casino), but it was vetoed by the Palisades Interstate Park Commission, which controls CR 106.

Quote from: amroad17 on October 01, 2014, 05:17:15 AM
Quote from: Jim on September 29, 2014, 07:14:09 AM
If the best point against renumbering to have exit numbers and mile markers that follow the the route numbers (as it done nearly everywhere else) is that it is more confusing to motorists than having the current 3 separate numbering schemes for each of I-87 and I-90, then I see this as a very one-sided argument.  Anyone who's been at the I-87/I-90 interchange in Albany during holidays and other times when the traffic isn't just the regulars who know the roads well has probably seen the confusion that results from the current scheme.

I'd go a step further and argue that an exit renumbering is the right opportunity to do some renumberings in NYC, like having I-87 replace the I-278 designation from the Triboro/JFK to its junction with I-95 or even US 1/9 in NJ.  But that's probably a topic for another thread.
I agree with you about I-87.  It should replace I-278 from its current terminus.  Until I-278 reaches Staten Island, the freeway follows more of a north/south orientation than east/west.  Perfect for a number such as 87.

During my earlier post, I forgot to mention how "free" I-90's exits could be renumbered.  Like with I-87, I really have no preference as to having the exits begin with "1" or "349" as long as they are mile-based.  However, with the first few exits in close proximity, I would number them in sequence (1N-S, 2, 3 or 349N-S, 350, 351) until the mileposts synch up again.  I do not mind lettered suffixes until they start getting to F, G, H, or even I (Chicago? Kansas City? Even Cincinnati with an Exit 1G on I-75?).   IIRC, the first six or seven exits on "free" I-90 are within the first four miles from the Thruway to Albany.
If free 90 were converted to distance based using the existing mileage, the numbers would probably be 1A/B, 1C, 2A, 2B, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10... (from 1N/S, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5A, 6, 6A, 7, 8, 9...).  I don't see what the anxiety about a few letters.  We have them now and nobody complains when they're the result of adding an interchange, even though that defeats the purpose of having any system at all beyond "random".
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

That's how I feel about stuff in New York City. There are a zillion letters already and adjacent exits in opposite directions have different numbers. If you combined stuff and renumbered many of those roads, there would be few more suffixes than currently exist. The "A" exits take away the "befefit" of a sequential system, especially when there are a lot of them.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Pete from Boston


Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2014, 02:01:52 PM
Regarding widening, it would be nice, but not really needed.  Traffic moves fine most of the time, though issues can develop between Buffalo and Syracuse and south of Albany on holiday weekends.

Most people in the area consider I-87 and the Northway to be one and the same... even the Northway stub to US 20 that's only a reference route gets called "I-87".  The Thruway is just "the Thruway", and nobody in the NYC area uses numbers other than roadgeeks.

Usually true, though "287" seems to be spoken much more than the ungainly "Cross Westchester Expressway," and in the parts of the NYC area not in New York, it becomes increasingly less the rule.

cl94

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 01, 2014, 04:51:06 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2014, 02:01:52 PM
Regarding widening, it would be nice, but not really needed.  Traffic moves fine most of the time, though issues can develop between Buffalo and Syracuse and south of Albany on holiday weekends.

Most people in the area consider I-87 and the Northway to be one and the same... even the Northway stub to US 20 that's only a reference route gets called "I-87".  The Thruway is just "the Thruway", and nobody in the NYC area uses numbers other than roadgeeks.

Usually true, though "287" seems to be spoken much more than the ungainly "Cross Westchester Expressway," and in the parts of the NYC area not in New York, it becomes increasingly less the rule.

I'll add I-684, NJ 495, NJ 3, everything else in Jersey save the Turnpike and Garden State, and several of the the NY 1xxs on Long Island. Many know that I-495 is the LIE, NY 27 is Sunrise (Montauk) Highway/Linden Boulevard, etc. even if they aren't referred to as such. NY 24 (the western one) and 25 are a little less known, probably because they tend to be in built-up areas with pretty familiar names and not much signage. Once you get into Westchester, Rockland, and Orange, it's all numbers unless it's a parkway.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Duke87

Quote from: vdeane on October 01, 2014, 01:21:41 PM
There is a proposed interchange near Tuxedo that would have connected to NY 17A and Orange CR 106 (part of the proposed casino), but it was vetoed by the Palisades Interstate Park Commission, which controls CR 106.

Not to mention that the people in southern Orange county like the fact that their area is somewhat inaccessible from the city and do not want the extra suburban development that a new exit off the Thruway would bring.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

roadman65

What development?  The area is protected by Harriman State Park.  Having an exit at CR 106 would take some traffic off of NY 17 through Southfields and Tuxedo and lower counts later on in Sloatsburg and Woodbury on the other end.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Pete from Boston


Quote from: roadman65 on October 02, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
What development?  The area is protected by Harriman State Park.  Having an exit at CR 106 would take some traffic off of NY 17 through Southfields and Tuxedo and lower counts later on in Sloatsburg and Woodbury on the other end.

My theory is that the obvious target of this exit wouldn't be Tuxedo, 106 traffic, or even necessarily 17 traffic (which has two good nearby access points to the Thruway), but rather that to/from 17A, which is the most direct route from Greenwood Lake, Florida, Warwick, the whole Black Dirts area, and even places like Vernon, NJ (Action Park!).  The closest area to 17 along 17A (Sterling Forest) is now part of the PIP and thus protected, but I think you'd find pretty immediate pressure to develop whatever isn't. 

I know a lot of people from closer in who moved up that way because it's an affordable area to get a little space and quiet at a reasonable proximity to the city, and I could see why there might be pushback to something that might threaten that.  All just a guess, of course.

Buffaboy

Quote from: cl94 on September 30, 2014, 07:47:01 PM
Spring Valley likely isn't on the list because it has highway-speed E-ZPass. Why eliminate the congestion there (none) when you can get rid of the 4 busiest barrier tolls on the system at places prone to backups? Also more of a cost savings when jobs get eliminated. We're talking millions of dollars that don't have to go toward salaries.

When they do any changes to the ticket system, the precedent is to do it west of Buffalo first, then move it elsewhere because it's easier to implement on a shorter (67 miles vs. 380 miles) section of highway. Could they do it all at once? Certainly. But it would be a more immediate savings if they got rid of as much as possible as early as possible. Since each ticket section has to change at once, it makes more sense to do the short one first.

If/when it does all change to AET, there won't be a reason why NYSTA couldn't add intermediate exits to relieve congestion. I could picture them between 16 and 17 (Cornwall), 23 and 24 (NY 85, direct ramps to Northway/US 20), 31 and 32 (west of Utica, NY 49), 46 and 47 (NY 36), 48A and 49 (Akron/Newstead and central Clarence/Lancaster), and 56 and 57 (US 20/62).

The exit ideas are good. Having driven down US 20 between 56 and 57 my whole life, I know there isn't ample room for toll booths but there certainly is for AET.

In Utica, it is possible that the NY 840 expressway could be extended to the 90 and create an exit there.
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machias

Quote from: Buffaboy on October 02, 2014, 03:45:03 PM

In Utica, it is possible that the NY 840 expressway could be extended to the 90 and create an exit there.

I spoke with the Thruway Authority a few years ago about an interchange at CR 840 between Westmoreland and Utica and they were very much against that idea, citing that it would be better to upgrade the roads between 840 and the Westmoreland interchange instead.

An E-ZPass only exit for NY 49 in the Town of Marcy is on the HOCTS (Herkimer Oneida Counties Transportation Study) long range plan, but is currently in the "unfunded" category. Local politicians have been pushing for it a little bit (along with the upgrade of NY 49 to NY 790 and eventually I-790, so it may happen someday.

roadman65

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 02, 2014, 02:36:14 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 02, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
What development?  The area is protected by Harriman State Park.  Having an exit at CR 106 would take some traffic off of NY 17 through Southfields and Tuxedo and lower counts later on in Sloatsburg and Woodbury on the other end.

My theory is that the obvious target of this exit wouldn't be Tuxedo, 106 traffic, or even necessarily 17 traffic (which has two good nearby access points to the Thruway), but rather that to/from 17A, which is the most direct route from Greenwood Lake, Florida, Warwick, the whole Black Dirts area, and even places like Vernon, NJ (Action Park!).  The closest area to 17 along 17A (Sterling Forest) is now part of the PIP and thus protected, but I think you'd find pretty immediate pressure to develop whatever isn't. 

I know a lot of people from closer in who moved up that way because it's an affordable area to get a little space and quiet at a reasonable proximity to the city, and I could see why there might be pushback to something that might threaten that.  All just a guess, of course.
Interesting theory you have.  Just like in Delaware you have limited interchanges on DE 1.  No direct connection to DE 6 and DE 300, also that chose to put two interchanges on both sides of town rather than in the middle.  That is to prevent outskirt sprawl and keep the City of Smyrna the way it always was and also to keep the intown businesses alive as an interchange with DE 6 would indeed take that away.

Too bad DelDOT built a partial interchange with DE 8 further south as that may open up a new door for outskirt sprawl for Dover.

Also I-78 in NJ did well by not putting interchanges with CR 519 and Carpentersville Road near Phillipsburg and letting Exit 3 in Greenwhich be Phillipsburg's only interchange.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Buffaboy

Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 02, 2014, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 02, 2014, 03:45:03 PM

In Utica, it is possible that the NY 840 expressway could be extended to the 90 and create an exit there.

I spoke with the Thruway Authority a few years ago about an interchange at CR 840 between Westmoreland and Utica and they were very much against that idea, citing that it would be better to upgrade the roads between 840 and the Westmoreland interchange instead.

An E-ZPass only exit for NY 49 in the Town of Marcy is on the HOCTS (Herkimer Oneida Counties Transportation Study) long range plan, but is currently in the "unfunded" category. Local politicians have been pushing for it a little bit (along with the upgrade of NY 49 to NY 790 and eventually I-790, so it may happen someday.

Man that's too bad. In my opinion it would improve the continuity of the highway, but there are always reasons to everything.

The Utica area and NYSTA do not have large pots of money either.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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cl94

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 02, 2014, 02:36:14 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 02, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
What development?  The area is protected by Harriman State Park.  Having an exit at CR 106 would take some traffic off of NY 17 through Southfields and Tuxedo and lower counts later on in Sloatsburg and Woodbury on the other end.

My theory is that the obvious target of this exit wouldn't be Tuxedo, 106 traffic, or even necessarily 17 traffic (which has two good nearby access points to the Thruway), but rather that to/from 17A, which is the most direct route from Greenwood Lake, Florida, Warwick, the whole Black Dirts area, and even places like Vernon, NJ (Action Park!).  The closest area to 17 along 17A (Sterling Forest) is now part of the PIP and thus protected, but I think you'd find pretty immediate pressure to develop whatever isn't. 

I know a lot of people from closer in who moved up that way because it's an affordable area to get a little space and quiet at a reasonable proximity to the city, and I could see why there might be pushback to something that might threaten that.  All just a guess, of course.

The only warrant I can see for an interchange in that location is reducing traffic on the short stretch south of Sloatsburg. I don't think the Renaissance "Faire" that lasts a month and a half is enough to warrant an exit if NY 17 has the capacity to handle the extra traffic. I bet Sloatsburg and Harriman don't want to lose the traffic, either. Due to the terrain, an interchange there certainly wouldn't be cheap - there's a river on one side and a mountain on the other.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Duke87

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 02, 2014, 02:36:14 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 02, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
What development?  The area is protected by Harriman State Park.  Having an exit at CR 106 would take some traffic off of NY 17 through Southfields and Tuxedo and lower counts later on in Sloatsburg and Woodbury on the other end.

My theory is that the obvious target of this exit wouldn't be Tuxedo, 106 traffic, or even necessarily 17 traffic (which has two good nearby access points to the Thruway), but rather that to/from 17A, which is the most direct route from Greenwood Lake, Florida, Warwick, the whole Black Dirts area, and even places like Vernon, NJ (Action Park!).  The closest area to 17 along 17A (Sterling Forest) is now part of the PIP and thus protected, but I think you'd find pretty immediate pressure to develop whatever isn't. 

I know a lot of people from closer in who moved up that way because it's an affordable area to get a little space and quiet at a reasonable proximity to the city, and I could see why there might be pushback to something that might threaten that.  All just a guess, of course.

Bingo. I know a couple people in Warwick, and the comment has been made by quite a few guests of theirs that there isn't a good direct route to where they live. Their response is that they like it that way and would strongly oppose any attempt to change it.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

NJRoadfan

Warwick, NY and West Milford, NJ are effectively cut off by the Ramapo Mountains. There is no "easy" way to get there outside of Skyline Drive (curvy and slow), cutting through Wanaque on CR-511 (slower), or taking Eagle Valley Rd. and Sloatsburg road from NY-17 (out of the way). NJ-23 is too far south for many of those points as well.

Any interchange in the area would support this not so popular casino project right in the middle of preserved land.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/09/ny_casino_proposal_just_over_nj_border_an_environmental_gamble_opponents_say.html
http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-senate-asks-new-york-to-reject-sterling-forest-casino-bid-1.1093931

cl94

Improvements at Williamsville Toll Plaza in Amherst: http://www.thruway.ny.gov/netdata/contractors/documents/d214355_tab14-43_plans-volume-1-of-1.pdf

Adding a new WB toll lane (to be numbered 12X) to reduce backups, creating a 20 mph E-ZPass lane for EB traffic, realigning the EB side to accommodate an extended EB auxillary lane from Exit 50 to the plaza, widening the WB approaches, and installing a constant slope median barrier within the project limits. Until AET comes in and changes everything, this will be a good (and relatively inexpensive) low-cost partial solution to the delays experienced at this barrier. Not the move that area politicians want, but it should have a positive impact.
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vdeane

I remember when they were going to demolish the barrier and build a new ORT barrier in Pembroke.  Doubt we'll see it with the AET conversions downstate though.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

Quote from: vdeane on October 06, 2014, 05:21:49 PM
I remember when they were going to demolish the barrier and build a new ORT barrier in Pembroke.  Doubt we'll see it with the AET conversions downstate though.

Yeah, that died a couple years back. Not only would it have been very expensive, but the stretch between Clarence and Batavia is all wetlands that would have to be replaced. Wouldn't shock me if the bigwigs looked at the AET projects that have been successfully implemented across North America and figured that the Thruway would change over in the relatively near future (as they're already starting to do).
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Buffaboy

Quote from: cl94 on October 06, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 06, 2014, 05:21:49 PM
I remember when they were going to demolish the barrier and build a new ORT barrier in Pembroke.  Doubt we'll see it with the AET conversions downstate though.

Yeah, that died a couple years back. Not only would it have been very expensive, but the stretch between Clarence and Batavia is all wetlands that would have to be replaced. Wouldn't shock me if the bigwigs looked at the AET projects that have been successfully implemented across North America and figured that the Thruway would change over in the relatively near future (as they're already starting to do).

I think the Thruway Authority feels they get a bigger cut if they keep the toll booths where they are, so they leech off of commuters from Exit 49/48.

I feel similar about Exit 57. Many motorists use that exit and pay higher tolls every day than they need too.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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vdeane

Quote from: cl94 on October 06, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 06, 2014, 05:21:49 PM
I remember when they were going to demolish the barrier and build a new ORT barrier in Pembroke.  Doubt we'll see it with the AET conversions downstate though.

Yeah, that died a couple years back. Not only would it have been very expensive, but the stretch between Clarence and Batavia is all wetlands that would have to be replaced. Wouldn't shock me if the bigwigs looked at the AET projects that have been successfully implemented across North America and figured that the Thruway would change over in the relatively near future (as they're already starting to do).
Someone needs to tell the person who maintains their website.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Buffaboy

Have you seen the windmills going up on the Thruway? I saw them when I was driving down to Eden Angola. Here's a the article if you want to read it: http://wivb.com/2014/10/23/thruway-authority-taps-blustery-winds/
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

Zeffy

I'm sure glad I don't live in New York...

QuoteA state of emergency was declared in the Buffalo suburbs of Orchard Park and West Seneca, and a travel ban was issued in the town of Elma, just east of the city of Buffalo Tuesday morning. A 13-mile section of the New York State Thruway (Interstate 90) was closed from the east side of Buffalo southward. To avoid traffic backups, a 37-mile stretch of the Niagara Thruway (Interstate 190) southbound from Niagara Falls to the Interstate-90 interchange was also shutdown Tuesday morning.

From http://www.weather.com/news/weather-winter/lake-effect-snow-significant-lake-erie-lake-ontario-20141115
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

cl94

Thruway closed from Exit 46 to PA line per WGRZ. I-190 closed south of I-290. 4 feet has fallen in places, expect over 6.
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Zeffy

Quote from: cl94 on November 18, 2014, 11:40:39 AM
Thruway closed from Exit 46 to PA line per WGRZ. I-190 closed south of I-290. 4 feet has fallen in places, expect over 6.

You live in the Buffalo area, right? I'm sure your commute is absolutely hell right now. Also, it looks like the Aurora Expressway / NY 400 is closed between NY 16 and NY 277. It's pretty crazy looking at the Buffalo area on Google Maps with the traffic reports enabled.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

cl94

Quote from: Zeffy on November 18, 2014, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: cl94 on November 18, 2014, 11:40:39 AM
Thruway closed from Exit 46 to PA line per WGRZ. I-190 closed south of I-290. 4 feet has fallen in places, expect over 6.

You live in the Buffalo area, right? I'm sure your commute is absolutely hell right now. Also, it looks like the Aurora Expressway / NY 400 is closed between NY 16 and NY 277. It's pretty crazy looking at the Buffalo area on Google Maps with the traffic reports enabled.

I'm at UB. We got an inch yesterday and nothing since then. My parents live 15 miles southeast of here, if that. They have close to 5 feet already and it's still falling. They might have 8 feet by the weekend. Where I am right now, I can see the storm a couple of miles in the distance. White wall blocking everything. But that's the nature of lake effect snow.

I posted the list of major closures on the New York page. ALL of NY 400 closed, US 219 closed north of NY 242 in Ellicottville (most of its length north of I-86), NY 5 closed south of downtown, I-290 closed east of Exit 6.

To give you an idea of how close I am, I'm at I-990 Exit 1. Travel is banned entirely south of NY 33. It's sunny here. Cold, but the only clouds in the sky are to the south.

Here's a link showing all road closures in the area: http://www.wgrz.com/story/news/traffic/2014/11/18/travel-bans-and-advisories/19211015/
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Travel Mapping (updated weekly)



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