New York State Thruway

[vdeane]

I'm not sure if most people even know that licence plate cameras exist.  One would think that people would know about cell phone tracking in the post-Snowden era, but I wouldn't be surprised if many people are still ignorant of that, too.

[kalvado]

How can the backups at the Williamsville Toll barrier be mitigated?

All-electronic tolling or people in Buffalo being less paranoid about government surveillance and getting E-ZPass. Dead serious. I've heard way too many people say they're afraid of Big Brother tracking them, as if license plate cameras and cell phones don't already do that.

ezpass-only lanes operating at full speed, like in Woodbury, could also help.

[cl94]

How can the backups at the Williamsville Toll barrier be mitigated?

All-electronic tolling or people in Buffalo being less paranoid about government surveillance and getting E-ZPass. Dead serious. I've heard way too many people say they're afraid of Big Brother tracking them, as if license plate cameras and cell phones don't already do that.

ezpass-only lanes operating at full speed, like in Woodbury, could also help.

That was canned a few years ago. The big issue in the Buffalo area is the low percentage of E-ZPass users. Woodbury is over 75% last I checked, hence why express lanes work. Go through that barrier and almost everyone stays in the express lanes. The Buffalo area is around or under 50%, which is one of the major reasons why NYSTA didn't see a reason to put them in if they'll have AET in 10-15 years anyway. We'd still have the big backup in the cash lanes and, because so many people are paying cash, the backup might extend beyond the split. Niagara Falls getting a lot of visitors from outside the IAG complicates matters further.

[Buffaboy]

How can the backups at the Williamsville Toll barrier be mitigated?

All-electronic tolling or people in Buffalo being less paranoid about government surveillance and getting E-ZPass. Dead serious. I've heard way too many people say they're afraid of Big Brother tracking them, as if license plate cameras and cell phones don't already do that.

I've heard the same arguments and you can just get an RFID bag for free from EZPass

I got one for the first time last week and it's a breeze.

[cl94]

One would think that people would know about cell phone tracking in the post-Snowden era, but I wouldn't be surprised if many people are still ignorant of that, too.

After the Erie County Sheriff's Office was caught illegally using Stingray a little while back, people in Buffalo have been quite conscious about it, as it is always in the news.

[vdeane]

The planned ORT lanes would have also moved the barrier to Newstead, where it faced NIMBY opposition.

[cl94]

The planned ORT lanes would have also moved the barrier to Newstead, where it faced NIMBY opposition.

The EIS was also quite poor. Most of the stretch between NY 77 and NY 78 is wetlands. Only way they could have gotten local support out that way was if they added a free exit in the eastern part of Lancaster.

[cl94]

Cross-post from the Tappan Zee thread:

Thruway Closed between Exits 8 and 12 until further notice due to crane collapse

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/2016/07/19/crane-collapses-closes-tappan-zee-bridge/87290800/

So much for the brand-new deck on the old bridge. Crane went right through it.

[seicer]

Curious as to why a new deck was placed on the old bridge when it's going to be demolished - was it in that bad of condition?

[cl94]

Yeah, it was. Before they redecked it a couple years ago, they spent 20 years patching holes as they appeared. I remember there being quite a bad period in the late 90s-early 2000s where several holes that went all the way through formed and chunks of concrete were falling onto boats in the river. There's a reason why I didn't cross it for 15 years.

[roadman]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

[cl94]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

Good question. They're diverting most traffic at 287 on either side. Bear Mountain appears to be backed up to the Taconic, I-95 SB is backed up to the New Rochelle tolls, Newburgh-Beacon is congested, Thruway SB backed up to Woodbury, the list goes on and on.

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

[roadman]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

Good question. They're diverting most traffic at 287 on either side. Bear Mountain appears to be backed up to the Taconic, I-95 SB is backed up to the New Rochelle tolls, Newburgh-Beacon is congested, Thruway SB backed up to Woodbury, the list goes on and on.

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

Here's the full alert posted on the Thruway Authority's web page.  Talk about an understatement.

ACCIDENT I-87 - NYS THRUWAY IN BOTH DIRECTIONS FROM MILEPOST 13.1 TO 16.2 ON TAPPAN ZEE BRIDGE
Accident, all lanes blocked I-87 - NYS Thruway in both directions from milepost 13.1 to 16.2 on TAPPAN ZEE BRIDGE. All northbound traffic must exit at 8. All southbound traffic must exit at exit 15.
Motorists should plan for extended delays. Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes. During major incidents, the Authority broadcasts information on Highway Advisory Radio (HAR) and activates Dynamic Message Signs (DMS) to alert motorists.

And somebody obviously forgot that it's not exactly easy to cross the Hudson River if you can't use the Tappan Zee Bridge.

[RobbieL2415]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

Good question. They're diverting most traffic at 287 on either side. Bear Mountain appears to be backed up to the Taconic, I-95 SB is backed up to the New Rochelle tolls, Newburgh-Beacon is congested, Thruway SB backed up to Woodbury, the list goes on and on.

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

Rip Van Winkle Bridge all the way, baby.

[empirestate]

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

Rip Van Winkle Bridge all the way, baby.

Nuts to that; I'd wade across Lake Tear-in-the-Clouds!

[jeffandnicole]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

Good question. They're diverting most traffic at 287 on either side. Bear Mountain appears to be backed up to the Taconic, I-95 SB is backed up to the New Rochelle tolls, Newburgh-Beacon is congested, Thruway SB backed up to Woodbury, the list goes on and on.

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

And that, in part, is the answer to Roadman's question.  There is simply no highway that you can divert 100,000 vehicle to.

Thus, seek alternate routes, because a route that works for you won't work for someone else.

[SignBridge]

As of 5pm, all northbound lanes were reopened. From the news video I saw earlier in the day I'd say the NYSTA did a commendable of job of clearing the debris and getting at least one direction moving again. I fully expected the entire bridge to be closed until tomorrow.

[roadman]

So one of the major bridges across the Hudson River is completely closed, with no reliable ETA of when it will be reopened.  Yet, on their website, the Thruway Authority advises

Motorists may wish to seek alternate routes

Who writes this stuff?

Good question. They're diverting most traffic at 287 on either side. Bear Mountain appears to be backed up to the Taconic, I-95 SB is backed up to the New Rochelle tolls, Newburgh-Beacon is congested, Thruway SB backed up to Woodbury, the list goes on and on.

If I had to get down there, I'd cross as far north as possible.

And that, in part, is the answer to Roadman's question.  There is simply no highway that you can divert 100,000 vehicle to.

Thus, seek alternate routes, because a route that works for you won't work for someone else.

I agree with advising people to use alternate routes.  Given the circumstances of this situation (total bridge closure for unknown period), I do not agree with phrasing it as "motorists may wish to use alternate routes".  I also do not agree with the "Roadway closed at Exit XX, with no other information"  In other words, "our road is closed, you figure out another way to get across the Hudson."

And no, I'm not expecting the Thruway Authority to post a signed detour to all of the other bridges across the river.  But a little information about other available bridges wouldn't hurt (consider Mom and Pop tourist that are totally unfamiliar with the area).

Lastly, even the tone of the alert seriously downplayed the severity of the situation.  Stating "Accident" instead of "Road Closure" is very misleading, as it implies to the average person "oh, this will be cleared up shortly."

[kalvado]

I agree with advising people to use alternate routes.  Given the circumstances of this situation (total bridge closure for unknown period), I do not agree with phrasing it as "motorists may wish to use alternate routes".  I also do not agree with the "Roadway closed at Exit XX, with no other information"  In other words, "our road is closed, you figure out another way to get across the Hudson."

And no, I'm not expecting the Thruway Authority to post a signed detour to all of the other bridges across the river.  But a little information about other available bridges wouldn't hurt (consider Mom and Pop tourist that are totally unfamiliar with the area).

Lastly, even the tone of the alert seriously downplayed the severity of the situation.  Stating "Accident" instead of "Road Closure" is very misleading, as it implies to the average person "oh, this will be cleared up shortly."

I would assume they used one of 10 pre-written messages. I believe "seek alternative road" is a generic wording used in emergency with no pre-planned detour. And yes, closed Tapan Zee is a huge mess, you cannot be fully prepared for that.
I assume things would be a bit sorted out if closure went into next day,  but we didn't see anything beyond first response.

[roadman]

I agree with advising people to use alternate routes.  Given the circumstances of this situation (total bridge closure for unknown period), I do not agree with phrasing it as "motorists may wish to use alternate routes".  I also do not agree with the "Roadway closed at Exit XX, with no other information"  In other words, "our road is closed, you figure out another way to get across the Hudson."

And no, I'm not expecting the Thruway Authority to post a signed detour to all of the other bridges across the river.  But a little information about other available bridges wouldn't hurt (consider Mom and Pop tourist that are totally unfamiliar with the area).

Lastly, even the tone of the alert seriously downplayed the severity of the situation.  Stating "Accident" instead of "Road Closure" is very misleading, as it implies to the average person "oh, this will be cleared up shortly."

I would assume they used one of 10 pre-written messages. I believe "seek alternative road" is a generic wording used in emergency with no pre-planned detour. And yes, closed Tapan Zee is a huge mess, you cannot be fully prepared for that.
I assume things would be a bit sorted out if closure went into next day,  but we didn't see anything beyond first response.

Points taken.  I guess my bias against the current PR philosophy of "choose the pre-selected message that most closely fits the situation" (as opposed to providing accurate messages based on the actual situation) is showing.  Then again, back in the day when I was involved in PR, state DOT PR people were actual engineers that were given PR training.  Now they hire former media hacks for the jobs, and try to automate the public announcement systems (i.e., the ten "stock" messages) as much as possible - IMO Boston's MBTA transit system is one of the worst in this regard.

I'm not entirely convinced the current system provides a greater benefit to the public than the old way did.  Especially where "local" news outlets, which used to pick up the slack, are increasingly shying away from providing actual local news.

[jeffandnicole]

Using the VMS boards, the best you can do is 27 characters per line for 6 lines; 3 lines on a rotating basis, such as:

TAPPAN ZEE
   BRIDGE
   CLOSED

    SEEK
ALTERNATE
  ROUTES

Maybe they could've said...

   TAPPAN ZEE
BRIDGE CLOSED

USE 87 SOUTH
  TO GWB TO
    80 WEST

But remember...it's rush hour.  The GWB is already at capacity to begin with, with the other highways close to capacity.  Do you just use one route as an alternative?  You can't put too much info on the sign, because people would easily become confused.

And remember also...if mom & pop traveler don't know their way around too much, what are the chances they're even going to know the name of the bridge and where it's located?  Do now do you say I-287 closed at Exit 9?  Do you say Use 87 South to 95 South to 80 West?

You're never going to make 100% of the people understand what you're trying to say...as the saying goes, make it idiot-proof and they'll design a better idiot.  You shoot for the common terminology that the vast majority of the people know and go with it. 

[roadman]

You can't put too much info on the sign, because people would easily become confused

Totally agree there are practical and procedural limitations as to what you can and should put on VMS signs.  But my comments were specifically directed at the information provided on the Authority's web page, where one has much greater flexibility to post detailed information about alternate routes and the like.  Also remember that, on a web site, that additional information does not need to be placed in the body of the initial traffic alert.

You shoot for the common terminology that the vast majority of the people know and go with it

Correct again.  However, once the full extent of the incident was known, I still maintain there was no legitimate reason to continue to downplay the severity of the disruption on the web page by stating "Accident" instead of "Road Closure".  Not to mention stating "may wish to use alternate routes" instead of "should seek alternate routes" is incorrect, as it conveys a totally different meaning as to the severity of the disruption.

[cl94]

You can't put too much info on the sign, because people would easily become confused

Totally agree there are practical and procedural limitations as to what you can and should put on VMS signs.  But my comments were specifically directed at the information provided on the Authority's web page, where one has much greater flexibility to post detailed information about alternate routes and the like.  Also remember that, on a web site, that additional information does not need to be placed in the body of the initial traffic alert.

You shoot for the common terminology that the vast majority of the people know and go with it

Correct again.  However, once the full extent of the incident was known, I still maintain there was no legitimate reason to continue to downplay the severity of the disruption on the web page by stating "Accident" instead of "Road Closure".  Not to mention stating "may wish to use alternate routes" instead of "should seek alternate routes" is incorrect, as it conveys a totally different meaning as to the severity of the disruption.

I agree. Until the press conference with Cuomo, everything from NYSTA, including their website and social media, said "accident" without indicating a long-term closure. Google showed it pretty quick thanks to Waze (patting my own back here, I'm the one who relayed exact closure data to higher-ups to have it posted, and everything posted on here by others regarding closures was relayed to have it shown on the map), but NYSTA could have been a lot better.

[jeffandnicole]

It was a 5 or 6 hour closure. Wasn't exactly long term. A flipped over truck or fatal can last several hours as well.

[roadman]

It was a 5 or 6 hour closure. Wasn't exactly long term. A flipped over truck or fatal can last several hours as well.

With respect, there was a big difference here.  Unlike a rollover or a fatal crash, which are (unfortunately) increasingly common enough that the DOT or toll agency can reliably predict the duration of any given lane or roadway closure to within about half an hour, the potential duration of the Tappan Zee closure was not truly known until after the structural engineers had completed their inspections.  Based on that alone, I maintain my position that NYSTA should have been more proactive in the information they provided to their patrons once the circumstances and extent of the accident were known to them.

I also believe that NYSTA was extremely lucky in that the crane collapsed onto the old bridge where two deck sections met at a pier.  If the crane had fallen in the middle of one of the deck spans, chances are very good that the bridge would still be completely closed to traffic today.