Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[EngineerTM]

For those who are interested (or want to raise their blood pressure), there is an excellent article in today's Evansville Courier and Press about the history of the opposition to I-69 by opponents in Bloomington, and how they see the recent opening of Section 4.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/facing-the-future/i-69-opponents-the-process-is-broken-267e8ec7-416f-5b77-e053-0100007ffbb2-361357841.html

And they are not ready to give up.  Although they are resigned to the fact that they couldn't stop the interstate, they are still committed to being obstructionists, but on a smaller scale locally.  I also expect to see them try and gum up the Section 6 process towards a Record of Decision.

Mayor Mark Kruzan voted against including I-69 in the Bloomington/Monroe County Metropolitan Planning Organization's long-range plan. He's not convinced the highway will have the economic benefits touted by proponents, or that Bloomington even needs that boost.

"If you look at Bloomington, most people think of the economy doing well even though it's not on an interstate," he said. "The culture is strong without that link."

And if more jobs come, they might be in the form of chain stores, restaurants and other typical roadside attractions that can be seen on interstates throughout the country.

"Some people come here because there is not an interstate," he said. "It's unique."

As the construction continues up Indiana 37 through Bloomington, Kruzan wonders how it will affect city and county roads. Many that once crossed the state highway will dead end at the interstate. Those that will crossover, such as 17th Street, will now become major east/west connectors. Will those roads need to be altered to handle the increased traffic load? Who will pay for those changes?

Now that Section 4 is open and Section 5 is under construction, it's no longer a question of being for or against the highway, Kruzan said. Now it's about how to deal with it. He wants to see the people who organized and opposed the highway stay involved and weigh in on planning and zoning issues.

"I hope opponents don't feel like we lost and disengage," he said.

[EngineerTM]

the 445 exit is a teardrop roundabout interchange right? it's showing up as a diamond, also what is the lane configuration for the 37 interchange?  if you want to follow 37 straight through, are both ramps 2 lanes?

Section 5 Thoughts:

It's interesting that both the Fullerton Pike and Tapp Road interchanges are going to have roundabouts. (More on these roads later.)

Why is INDOT going to redo the SR 45 interchange? A folding diamond isn't already interstate quality? They just did construction and improved the interchange a year or two back.

If I read the documentation correctly, I think that the construction at SR 45 is going to only consist of minor improvements primarily related to pedestrian use.

[silverback1065]

2 quotes that annoy me and my responses:

1- "Some people come here because there is not an interstate," he said. "It's unique."

I don't believe that is true in any meaningful way

2- "I hope opponents don't feel like we lost and disengage," he said.

you did lose, get over it, it happens in life, move on!

All of these runoff concerns seem very overblown, just a minor concern that gets blown up when you don't have any real concerns.  I've done many erosion control plans, and I can tell you the erosion concerns have been addressed.  Of course you can't stop all runoff, but that shouldn't stop you from building a road.  This runoff issue can be put on every 2 lane state road that was or will be built down there, they just bitch now because it's an interstate.  They'll all grow to like it in the end, and if they don't tough shit, it here for all to use now! 

[andy]

I made the trip from US231 to Bloomington and back last night.  Nice road with a lot of elevated views.

There were a couple of bridges with slight dips on the approaches, so they will probably will need add some asphalt over the next few years.

The 69N to 37N interchange flowed smoother than I feared. Still pinched to one lane each for 37N and 69N, but this is sensible until Section 5 gets further along.

Monroe County has "No Salt" signs along the length. Hmmm....

The reason I remember for no SR54 exchange is proximity to SR445 and SR45.  The elevation could have been overcome, but it would have been more costly than average. I will be curious to see if the county will improve existing roads parallel and south of I69 to accommodate local folks wanting to get to 54 East.

[US 41]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The whole thing would probably be done by now too. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

[silverback1065]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

I see your point of what they feel, US 41, but I have to disagree with it
you could say that about every new road in the country, fact of the matter is, the 41 route made absolutely no sense, this route did.  I'm sure not everyone didn't want this road, but they got it, and they'll come around to it, it made no sense for this road to have not been built with the original interstate plans back in the day.  I really feel these obstructionist objectors are, like with a lot of issues a very vocal minority.  As I said before, opposition is totally OK, it just angers me with the opposition is illogical and just simply obstructionist. I am more than willing to listen to well thought out reasons not to do something, I'm not willing to listen to their get off my lawn bullshit. 

[US 41]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

I see your point of what they feel, US 41, but I have to disagree with it
you could say that about every new road in the country, fact of the matter is, the 41 route made absolutely no sense, this route did.  I'm sure not everyone didn't want this road, but they got it, and they'll come around to it, it made no sense for this road to have not been built with the original interstate plans back in the day.  I really feel these obstructionist objectors are, like with a lot of issues a very vocal minority.  As I said before, opposition is totally OK, it just angers me with the opposition is illogical and just simply obstructionist. I am more than willing to listen to well thought out reasons not to do something, I'm not willing to listen to their get off my lawn bullshit.

I agree that I-69 should go to Bloomington, but I also think it should have been built as a toll road from the the SR 57 interchange (Exit 22) to the SR 37 interchange. There's was really no good reason not to toll that section.

[EngineerTM]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The whole thing would probably be done by now too. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

Your point is a fair one, but you are forgetting that there were towns such as Petersburg, Washington, and Bedford that wanted this new terrain highway, as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.  This is not just an Evansville to Indianapolis interstate, but is part of a much larger transportation and economic corridor.

[silverback1065]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The whole thing would probably be done by now too. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

Your point is a fair one, but you are forgetting that there were towns such as Petersburg, Washington, and Bedford that wanted this new terrain highway, as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.  This is not just an Evansville to Indianapolis interstate, but is part of a much larger transportation and economic corridor.

I agree with that, I don't know the history of the area, but I've always wondered why there wasn't at least a divided highway that connected Indy to Eville, something akin to US 31 with Indy and South Bend.  Does anyone have an idea why?  Also I see this route being very beneficial to Eville and all cities along the route. I really don't think the 41 route would have been at all.

[RoadWarrior56]

US 41 was deliberatly widened between Vincennes and Farmersburg between 1970 and 1975 to provide that 4-lane route via I-70.  When the ribbon was cut upon completion of the last section, that is what the governer said.  US 41/I-70 was the first all 4-lane route between Indy and Evansville.

[Henry]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The whole thing would probably be done by now too. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

As it is, the original I-69 runs from SW to NE, and the extension will continue that orientation all the way into TX. So in a way, routing it to Evansville via Bloomington makes a lot more sense than piggybacking on I-70 west to Terre Haute and US 41 to Evansville.

[vdeane]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

I see your point of what they feel, US 41, but I have to disagree with it
you could say that about every new road in the country, fact of the matter is, the 41 route made absolutely no sense, this route did.  I'm sure not everyone didn't want this road, but they got it, and they'll come around to it, it made no sense for this road to have not been built with the original interstate plans back in the day.  I really feel these obstructionist objectors are, like with a lot of issues a very vocal minority.  As I said before, opposition is totally OK, it just angers me with the opposition is illogical and just simply obstructionist. I am more than willing to listen to well thought out reasons not to do something, I'm not willing to listen to their get off my lawn bullshit.

I agree that I-69 should go to Bloomington, but I also think it should have been built as a toll road from the the SR 57 interchange (Exit 22) to the SR 37 interchange. There's was really no good reason not to toll that section.

Heck, they could have tolled all the new sections and called it the Trans-Indiana Turnpike.

[triplemultiplex]

as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.

Crane should be closed regardless.  Why the hell is there a Navy base in central Indiana in the first place?  Talk about military pork...


I would have rather seen the US 41 corridor upgraded, too.  In addition to providing a good connection between Indy and Evansville, it would also double as an improved N-S corridor between established medium-sized cities.
The new I-69 could've been built as a toll road, but the traffic projections weren't going to make that viable.  So they needed a massive federal subsidy and a ridiculous extension to Mexico to get the support to make it happen.
How long will it take for the extra billions spent on the new terrain alignment to pay off in terms of economic improvement for a handful of small towns?  I'm sure it all be worth it once they build a Love's in Petersburg.

Ah, there's no point in griping about this anymore.  The road's built.
I will be interested to see how the traffic numbers are over the next year or so now that it actually goes somewhere.  I wonder if those numbers will even justify the freeway conversion of IN 37 yet.  I've been hearing for decades now how 'important' this Evansville-Indianapolis interstate is.  Now that they have the connection they want, I can't wait to see if reality matches the vision.
If it doesn't, can we cancel the Ohio River bridge?    

[silverback1065]

as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.

Crane should be closed regardless.  Why the hell is there a Navy base in central Indiana in the first place?  Talk about military pork...


I would have rather seen the US 41 corridor upgraded, too.  In addition to providing a good connection between Indy and Evansville, it would also double as an improved N-S corridor between established medium-sized cities.
The new I-69 could've been built as a toll road, but the traffic projections weren't going to make that viable.  So they needed a massive federal subsidy and a ridiculous extension to Mexico to get the support to make it happen.
How long will it take for the extra billions spent on the new terrain alignment to pay off in terms of economic improvement for a handful of small towns?  I'm sure it all be worth it once they build a Love's in Petersburg.

Ah, there's no point in griping about this anymore.  The road's built.
I will be interested to see how the traffic numbers are over the next year or so now that it actually goes somewhere.  I wonder if those numbers will even justify the freeway conversion of IN 37 yet.  I've been hearing for decades now how 'important' this Evansville-Indianapolis interstate is.  Now that they have the connection they want, I can't wait to see if reality matches the vision.
If it doesn't, can we cancel the Ohio River bridge?    

I think for the highway to be worth it, the ohio river bridge has to be built IMO

[mvak36]

That and also finishing it down to Memphis since it's a big transportation hub.

[thefro]

Ah, there's no point in griping about this anymore.  The road's built.
I will be interested to see how the traffic numbers are over the next year or so now that it actually goes somewhere.  I wonder if those numbers will even justify the freeway conversion of IN 37 yet.

I have no doubt that the freeway conversion of IN 37 between Bloomington and Indianapolis is justified.  Certainly more traffic on that road than I-74 and I think more than I-70 westbound (at least immediately outside of the I-465 beltway) as well.

I would also guess some people that switched over to IN 67 in Martinsville will take the freeway instead once all the stoplights are removed.

Edit:  Okay, maybe not I-70... some of that is an illusion since there's so many lanes by the airport.

[silverback1065]

I feel like 74 west into Illinois is less needed than 69 if the same thing happened along that corridor

[2trailertrucker]

as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.

Crane should be closed regardless.  Why the hell is there a Navy base in central Indiana in the first place?  Talk about military pork...


I would have rather seen the US 41 corridor upgraded, too.  In addition to providing a good connection between Indy and Evansville, it would also double as an improved N-S corridor between established medium-sized cities.
The new I-69 could've been built as a toll road, but the traffic projections weren't going to make that viable.  So they needed a massive federal subsidy and a ridiculous extension to Mexico to get the support to make it happen.
How long will it take for the extra billions spent on the new terrain alignment to pay off in terms of economic improvement for a handful of small towns?  I'm sure it all be worth it once they build a Love's in Petersburg.

Ah, there's no point in griping about this anymore.  The road's built.
I will be interested to see how the traffic numbers are over the next year or so now that it actually goes somewhere.  I wonder if those numbers will even justify the freeway conversion of IN 37 yet.  I've been hearing for decades now how 'important' this Evansville-Indianapolis interstate is.  Now that they have the connection they want, I can't wait to see if reality matches the vision.
If it doesn't, can we cancel the Ohio River bridge?    

If you think Crane is a Navy base, you need to do some serious research.
Seriously! There is a great reason it is where it is at. Indiana was very smart to build the interstate to serve it.

[NE2]

If you think Crane is a Navy base, you need to do some serious research.
Seriously! There is a great reason it is where it is at. Indiana was very smart to build the interstate to serve it.

what
http://cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrma/installations/nsa_crane/about/history.html

[SW Indiana]

I checked INDOT's interactive traffic map. The last year of data is from 2011. The avg daily count of SR 37 between SR 46 at Bloomington and the south edge of Martinsville is 21,278 (I took the avg of the 6 traffic counts listed between the two cities). That's more than I-74 between Indy and Illinois. It's also a few more thousand more than US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute.

Also, Crane isn't really a Navy base, per se. There's less than 100 active duty personnel stationed there, and that's a combination of Navy, Army, Marine Corp and yes, the Coast Guard. But there's probably 3,000 or more civilian/contract employees there.

[andy]

If you think Crane is a Navy base, you need to do some serious research.
Seriously! There is a great reason it is where it is at. Indiana was very smart to build the interstate to serve it.

what
http://cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrma/installations/nsa_crane/about/history.html

I really shouldn't bite on this since it is so far off topic, but....
NE2, I don't suppose you actually read the link, other than to be purposefully literal about 2trailertruckers comment.
Crane is historically Navy, but its original function still exist as an Army tenant activity.
Also, there is a lot of Navy work that does not require being on the water's edge and being centrally located does provide some utility in serving both coast.

as well as the Crane Naval Base.  There was serious concern that Crane, due to its isolated location, could be selected for closure.

Crane should be closed regardless.  Why the hell is there a Navy base in central Indiana in the first place?  Talk about military pork...

As your signature says, "That's just like... your opinion, man."
.
Sorry in advance, couldn't resist.

And on more sober note and back on topic, Crane's ammunition function used to rely very heavily on rail service. With the unfortunate decline in rail in this country, it is now much more dependent on the road system.

[seicer]

There is actually a lot of naval and other support functions far from the oceans - such as the supply depots in Point Pleasant, West Virginia and elsewhere.

[mgk920]

If you think Crane is a Navy base, you need to do some serious research.
Seriously! There is a great reason it is where it is at. Indiana was very smart to build the interstate to serve it.

what
http://cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrma/installations/nsa_crane/about/history.html

I really shouldn't bite on this since it is so far off topic, but....
NE2, I don't suppose you actually read the link, other than to be purposefully literal about 2trailertruckers comment.
Crane is historically Navy, but its original function still exist as an Army tenant activity.
Also, there is a lot of Navy work that does not require being on the water's edge and being centrally located does provide some utility in serving both coast.

Also, the central location is why the USNavy's only enlisted 'boot camp' is in north suburban Chicagoland (Great Lakes N.T.S.).  Also, the majority of the Navy's recruits come from the central USA.

Mike

[Captain Jack]

The biggest problem with I-69 is that they shoved it down a bunch of people's throats that didn't want the interstate in the first place. And the people that really wanted it (Terre Haute, Sullivan, Vincennes, Princeton) didn't get it. There would have been no resistance what so ever had Indiana ran it up US 41 to Terre Haute. It also would have saved the state billions of dollars. The whole thing would probably be done by now too. The route to Bloomington without question is the best route, but why give it to people that don't want it?

That's a pretty big misconception, brought to you by a very vocal minority. I do a lot of business in Bloomington, as well as the rest of Southern Indiana, and I can assure you most of the commerce leaders, the general population of Monroe County, along with every single parent of an IU student from Southwest Indiana wanted that highway. Trust me, Washington, Petersburg, Oakland City, etc wanted it and needed it much more than Princeton and Sullivan. US 41 in it's present state isn't great, but those towns along it were much better off than Washington and Petersburg were with the only access being two lane goat trails.

My daughter goes to ISU, so personally, I would love to see 41 in better shape, but the Bloomington route is much more beneficial for the greater good.

[Captain Jack]

I agree that I-69 should go to Bloomington, but I also think it should have been built as a toll road from the the SR 57 interchange (Exit 22) to the SR 37 interchange. There's was really no good reason not to toll that section.

I guess no better reason than not to toll I-70 from SR 46 to I-465.......