Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[tdindy88]

It is a bit wrong to think about cutting off Bloomington from the interstate via exits, given the utter lack of services from the east side of Evansville along that interstate all the way up to Bloomington, any traveler is going to be happy to get off at B-Town to get something to eat or use the restroom. I drove the new highway for the first time yesterday and found myself getting off at 3rd Street to use the restroom. And while I would agree about this new highway cutting through forest and karst topography to the southwest of town, I don't buy the whole I-69 cutting through Bloomington argument, it's using the same divided highway as SR 37, it's the limitation of access, especially north of town that will make things a little harder for those living in that area and to me it is a legitimate complaint. On that note, how major of a hospital is Monroe Hospital, I always thought that Bloomington Hospital was basically "the" hospital in town.

As for Tapp and Fullerton, I would have thought that Bloomington wouldn't be in favor of widening because of the nature of the people in that area. I believe that town is more about alternative forms of transportation and developing the more mature parts of town in the center than building four lane boulevards around the south side of town. That sort of development also (to me) makes it harder to justify building up around the Fullerton and Tapp exits to keep commercial development concentrated north near 2nd and 3rd Streets. That also explains why there were no exits between 37 and 445.

In addition, I would agree that the southwestern quadrant of the county is actually the least development, making it nice for people to move away from it all, so a new four-lane freeway through there I could see the disruption. Still, connecting Bloomington to Evansville and in the future Indy via a new freeway to me makes sense.

As for Section 4, very neat highway to drive on and a decent amount of traffic even for Saturday morning. It is a bit weird to see no control cities for Exits 98 and 104 but I would see why there was no need as there really isn't much along that corridor from Bloomington to US 231. Maybe a mention of Bloomfield for traffic from SB 69 to 445 and perhaps another sign for the Crane NSA by Exit 98 for those who use SR 45 to get to Crane via the eastern entrance. Otherwise, not much in terms of settlements.

I do wish they did have the mileage signs, they eventually got around to adding county line signs for Sections 1-3 and are so immersed in adding signs for not spraying salt or something like that, but telling people the distance to communities along the highway would bring I-69 up to a standard that the rest of Indiana's freeways hold. Southbound mileage signs should have no problem since the distance to Evansville is basically set. I could see the reluctance for northbound signs due to the uncertainty of Section 6's route. That said, if we can lead the BGSs at the exits blank for I-69 north, they can leave the bottom line of a typical three-control mileage sign empty until they can get the exact distance to Indianapolis, or make the bottom line Bloomington for most of the signs with Indy only mentioned once or twice north of Evansville.

[hoosierguy]

This is sick. You think "justice" is building an interstate that cuts off access to a major hospital on Fullerton Pike and medical complex on Tapp Toad?

Exactly how is the hospital cut off if there is going to be an interchange at Fullerton Pike?

The poster I quoted said justice would be not building any interchanges that weren't already on 37. There is no interchange at Fullerton or Tapp.

Also, it is much more than a bit wrong to cut off access to the interstate just to spite those opposed it. It is insane. Any governmental agency that would act that way is guilty of criminal recklessness and endangerment.

[qguy]

If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. ...

Sick? Really? Howabout just "frustrated?"

See, the problem with using words like "sick" to describe something that clearly isn't sick is that it drains words like that of their meaning. Then when you encounter something that is truly sick, you either have nothing to use to accurately describe it or you need to resort to higher levels of exaggerated language, draining those words of their meaning.

Just call EngineerTM guilty of hyperbole (without the attack on his psyche) and we'll all ignore your hyperbole as well. Deal?

[lordsutch]

I think the frustrating thing about (some people in) Bloomington's attitude to me is that regardless of whether I-69 came through or not, it was going to grow and attract development because it's an appealing location. SR 37 to Indianapolis was eventually going to need to be upgraded to a freeway regardless.

So all the arguments about I-69 from that perspective boiled down to "people in southwest Indiana don't deserve better access to Bloomington and IU" because Bloomington was going to get a better SR 37 to Indy eventually no matter what happened with I-69.

[silverback1065]

http://www.courierpress.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-like-it-or-not-i-69-opens-up-links-26e2ec26-4fe5-59c8-e053-0100007f2552-362478941.html

A major piece of infrastructure improvement is opened that will greatly benefit Indiana and all communities along this route, and these local officials are still spitefully holding their collective grudges.  These officials still decided to show their true selves, their true pettiness, and not even attend the opening ceremony.  These people should be ashamed of themselves, especially for the years of how they derisively referred to their fellow state residents living south of them.  Frankly, I will make sure that every time I drive up to Indianapolis, I will not do any commerce with this town's businesses.  If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. You think "justice" is building an interstate that cuts off access to a major hospital on Fullerton Pike and medical complex on Tapp Toad?

How mature of you to punish a town's businesses because some of its residents had the audacity to oppose having a highway blasted through their city, a highway blasted through precious forest land and very environmentally sensitive karst terrain.

Evansville already had the highway infrastructure for I-69, Bloomington didn't, so nobody down south had homes destroyed, property taken, access roads cut off. The people of Monroe County actually care about the environment and many moved there to get away from the congestion an interstate brings. I am so very sorry if that dares challenge your worldview.

not only will there be an exit at fullerton pike, there will be a connection to gordon pike built soon, so that point is moot.  Also the highway did little to no damage to the city along 37, the part splitting off did, but again as I said, people of your opinion lost, get over it, move on. It sucks that people lost their property, but this was needed to get this project done, all other routes made no sense at all.  also the idea of removing all exits in bloomington was a joke and nothing more.

[silverback1065]

I suggest people who are against development work with zoning laws to prevent it, rather than continuing to bitch about this already built highway.  continuing to complain about this isn't helpful.

[mgk920]

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

[silverback1065]

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

Is there really any need for more interchanges ever in that area?  Also, how much extra development will actually happen?  I think this claim is overstated, look at all of the reasonably sized cities near interstates in the state, development didn't exactly explode, making a huge sprawling city.   

[US 41]

Not putting an interchange at Tapp or Fullerton would have been a disaster. It's already hard enough getting from the west part of town to the east side. Connecting Fullerton and Gordon Pike will definitely help.

[Pete from Boston]

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

Is there really any need for more interchanges ever in that area?  Also, how much extra development will actually happen?  I think this claim is overstated, look at all of the reasonably sized cities near interstates in the state, development didn't exactly explode, making a huge sprawling city.   

Didn't Evansville's east side kind of explode once 164 and the Lloyd went in?

[silverback1065]

Bloomington's street grid is weird on the south side, roads change names 3, sometimes 4 times on the same alignment.

Nexus 9

[jnewkirk77]

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

Is there really any need for more interchanges ever in that area?  Also, how much extra development will actually happen?  I think this claim is overstated, look at all of the reasonably sized cities near interstates in the state, development didn't exactly explode, making a huge sprawling city.   

Didn't Evansville's east side kind of explode once 164 and the Lloyd went in?

Yes. And it continues to grow.

[Pete from Boston]

Burkhart is nearly built out up to Lynch and is being "boulevardized" north of there, and now the office parks are filling the final frontier along the new Cross Pointe Blvd. 

I didn't know this area before that wave started, but I'm told even North Green River was a backwater before those major roads were developed. 

[jnewkirk77]

Burkhart is nearly built out up to Lynch and is being "boulevardized" north of there, and now the office parks are filling the final frontier along the new Cross Pointe Blvd. 

I didn't know this area before that wave started, but I'm told even North Green River was a backwater before those major roads were developed.

That's absolutely true. I can remember when planning to widen the first part of Green River north of Morgan to 5 lanes started, and INDOT widened Morgan Avenue as well. There wasn't much need for it at that time, because there was almost nothing north of Morgan, and indeed very little east of Green River. That's all changed.

The road infrastructure out that way really is primed for more development - and in any case, as you note, that's where the available land is now anyway.  There was a push to put the coming IU Medical School Evansville campus out there, but it's going downtown by the Ford Center instead.  Some felt that was a disappointment, but others may well see it as an opportunity.  I have a feeling that, if the economy does well in '16, there should be some news out there.

[theline]

Kind of back to the subject: my daughter made the drive yesterday from Evansville to South Bend and had high praise for the newly-opened section of I-69. Her phone GPS didn't know about it though, and kept telling her to turn on every crossroad, even if that was impossible. 

She made the E-ville/SB trip in less than 5 hours, certainly a record.

[noelbotevera]

There have been some new problems though.

(this feels untrustworthy - FOX News, dated 12/21/15)

[theline]

^^

The trooper, suspecting something was not right, called in a fellow trooper with a K9 officer.

That trooper better come up with a better reason for the stop than that, if he hopes to get a conviction.

The fears of the anti-freeway crowd in Bloomington have already come to fruition. It's making it easy for the drug dealers to ruin their bucolic town. 

[US 41]

^^

The trooper, suspecting something was not right, called in a fellow trooper with a K9 officer.

That trooper better come up with a better reason for the stop than that, if he hopes to get a conviction.

The fears of the anti-freeway crowd in Bloomington have already come to fruition. It's making it easy for the drug dealers to ruin their bucolic town. 

Just wait until all of I-69 is completed from Bloomington to Mexico. There will be so many drugs in Bloomington that the town might actually turn pro I-69.   

[Pete from Boston]

Kind of back to the subject: my daughter made the drive yesterday from Evansville to South Bend and had high praise for the newly-opened section of I-69. Her phone GPS didn't know about it though, and kept telling her to turn on every crossroad, even if that was impossible. 

I had this experience when the first leg opened.  I have some funny screen shots of proceeding along an empty space on the map.

The fears of the anti-freeway crowd in Bloomington have already come to fruition. It's making it easy for the drug dealers to ruin their bucolic town. 

Based on the people I've known in Bloomington, they'll be welcoming the drug dealers with open arms.

[hoosierguy]

If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. ...

Sick? Really? Howabout just "frustrated?"

See, the problem with using words like "sick" to describe something that clearly isn't sick is that it drains words like that of their meaning. Then when you encounter something that is truly sick, you either have nothing to use to accurately describe it or you need to resort to higher levels of exaggerated language, draining those words of their meaning.

Just call EngineerTM guilty of hyperbole (without the attack on his psyche) and we'll all ignore your hyperbole as well. Deal?

Do you know for a fact that it was just hyperbole? Either way it is reckless and uncalled for. The consequences of cutting off Fullerton and Tapp would be devastating.

[hoosierguy]

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

The roads in SW Monroe County couldn't handle the traffic an interstate interchange would bring. They would need to be completely rebuilt first.

[hoosierguy]

not only will there be an exit at fullerton pike, there will be a connection to gordon pike built soon, so that point is moot.  Also the highway did little to no damage to the city along 37, the part splitting off did, but again as I said, people of your opinion lost, get over it, move on. It sucks that people lost their property, but this was needed to get this project done, all other routes made no sense at all.  also the idea of removing all exits in bloomington was a joke and nothing more.

The county has no funding to complete the Fullerton Pike corridor, just a small federal grant to upgrade part of the existing route between Walnut and Henderson. As a result, there will be a period of several years, if not more, where interstate traffic dumps on to Fullerton which dead ends at Rockport. These roads are not meant to handle much traffic and are not well maintained. This is a reality the highway cheerleaders don't discuss, preferring pie in the sky predictions of jobs and economic growth.

[silverback1065]

not only will there be an exit at fullerton pike, there will be a connection to gordon pike built soon, so that point is moot.  Also the highway did little to no damage to the city along 37, the part splitting off did, but again as I said, people of your opinion lost, get over it, move on. It sucks that people lost their property, but this was needed to get this project done, all other routes made no sense at all.  also the idea of removing all exits in bloomington was a joke and nothing more.

The county has no funding to complete the Fullerton Pike corridor, just a small federal grant to upgrade part of the existing route between Walnut and Henderson. As a result, there will be a period of several years, if not more, where interstate traffic dumps on to Fullerton which dead ends at Rockport. These roads are not meant to handle much traffic and are not well maintained. This is a reality the highway cheerleaders don't discuss, preferring pie in the sky predictions of jobs and economic growth.

You say that like the entire interstate's traffic will dump off there, if people want to go further east they'll use the exits north of Fullerton. We all know the jobs aspect usually ends up being bullshit.
The state should have paid to fill the gap. They've done similar things along 31 in Hamilton county.
Nexus 6P

[mukade]

not only will there be an exit at fullerton pike, there will be a connection to gordon pike built soon, so that point is moot.  Also the highway did little to no damage to the city along 37, the part splitting off did, but again as I said, people of your opinion lost, get over it, move on. It sucks that people lost their property, but this was needed to get this project done, all other routes made no sense at all.  also the idea of removing all exits in bloomington was a joke and nothing more.

The county has no funding to complete the Fullerton Pike corridor, just a small federal grant to upgrade part of the existing route between Walnut and Henderson. As a result, there will be a period of several years, if not more, where interstate traffic dumps on to Fullerton which dead ends at Rockport. These roads are not meant to handle much traffic and are not well maintained. This is a reality the highway cheerleaders don't discuss, preferring pie in the sky predictions of jobs and economic growth.

How is that different than the rest of the state? It has taken years or tens of years in some cases for roads to be properly improved beyond interchanges on both new and old freeways in Indiana. It is up to the local governments to plan for and prioritize such improvements - that includes lining up federal or state funding. If you look at the new US 31 in Hamilton County, roads were only improved in close proximity to the new interchanges. In Kokomo and South Bend, such improvements in comparable situations happened after the freeway was completed. For example, Touby Pike (starting in 2016) and Kern Road (completed this year).

In my opinion, Bloomigton was a nightmare to drive through, and the state has done an excellent job there in the last five years.

As far as the extension/improvement of Fullerton Pike taking several years, the MPO decides how to prioritize projects. The "several years if not more" statement may or may not be true. That was the claim to try to stop I-69 from being built in Bloomington due to no immediate plans for construction north of Bloomington. The state was serious so it happened faster than anyone believed. Likewise, if the county or city want to improve Fullerton Pike, they will make it happen.

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

Is there really any need for more interchanges ever in that area?  Also, how much extra development will actually happen?  I think this claim is overstated, look at all of the reasonably sized cities near interstates in the state, development didn't exactly explode, making a huge sprawling city.   

Didn't Evansville's east side kind of explode once 164 and the Lloyd went in?

It happens a lot. Consider what all of these areas were like 15-25 years ago (i.e. look at old maps):
- I-65 and US 30 in Merrillville/Hobart - tons of commercial growth
- I-65 and SR 26 in Lafayette
- I-65 and County Line Rd. in Indy/Greenwood
- I-65 and US 31 in Edinburgh
- I-65 and old SR 131 in Clarksville - Bass Pro and other development
- I-94 and SR 249 in Portage - Bass Pro and other development
- I-94 and SR 49 - Chesterton used to be a sleepy little town
- I-69 and SR 1 in Fort Wayne
- I-69 and SR 3 Fort Wayne
- I-69 and Illinois St. in Fort Wayne
- I-69 and Jefferson (Fort Wayne)
- I-69 and SR 22 in Gas City - nothing like the big cities, but a good amount of commercial and industrial growth
- I-69 and Campus Pkwy in Noblesville
- I-69 and 116th St. in Fishers
- I-69 and 96th St in Indy/Fishers
- I-70 and US 41 in Terre Haute
- I-70 and SR 267 in Plainfield
- I-70 and SR 9  in Greenfield
- I-469 and SR 37 in Fort Wayne
- I-465 at several interchanges on the west and north legs
...and others.

Major automotive facilities were built at - I-74 at US 421 in Greensburg (Honda), I-65 at SR 38 in Lafayette, and I-69 at I-469 in Fort Wayne.

Significant development can certainly happen at key interchanges. In Bloomington, I would say the best potential would be at the SR 46 interchange.

[Rick Powell]

The county has no funding to complete the Fullerton Pike corridor, just a small federal grant to upgrade part of the existing route between Walnut and Henderson. As a result, there will be a period of several years, if not more, where interstate traffic dumps on to Fullerton which dead ends at Rockport. These roads are not meant to handle much traffic and are not well maintained. This is a reality the highway cheerleaders don't discuss, preferring pie in the sky predictions of jobs and economic growth.

Looking at Street View of the neighborhood around Fullerton, there seems to be little to draw a substantial amount off of SR37/I-69 at present, it looks like it is used now for local access for those it will be convenient to, and little else.  Wonder what the current traffic counts are?  It does look like a route that could be improved and would be a good route for southern east-west major collector or arterial access if widened and connected to Gordon Pike...depending on what the ultimate local/regional planning priority is, and how fast it is desired to happen.  Leaving roads the way they are, considering how the SR 37 connection is already there, might not result in too much land use change in the near future, nor much different traffic counts.  Without good connectivity to the rest of the city, any business that developed at the Fullerton interchange might be mostly an "off-exit, on-exit" type of draw.