I recently drove the entire US-50 across southern Illinois this past week.
Poor spot. The intersection of US-50 and IL-4 south of Lebanon.
It is a 3 way stop with mostly trucks using IL-4 for north south transit. In fact with the number of trucks I saw on IL-4 in my short experience, I wonder how much it is becoming the north-south eastern bypass of the Metro-East that IDOT had thought IL-158 would become (and gave up).
Other than Lebanon, there are no cities on the route from I-55 all the way to I-64. The mayor who promoted the US-50 Bypass (and has since passed away) was a proponent of a IL-4 Eastern Bypass of Lebanon. He may have been ahead of his time.
Current US-50 from IL-158 to IL-4 is just too old, has much to many businesses up against it. If the Lebanon Bypass is to be done correctly, it really needs to begin at Air Mobility Drive (IL-158) all the way to Summerfield, where the upgrade to Carlyle from the 80's begins/ends.
From Summerfield to Carlyle, the road has been repaved with signs reporting it as "test pavement". It was in excellent shape with no rip-raps or joint heaves. IDOT still owns all the land to complete this as a 4 lane limited access as I was watching the property line fences throughout.
I did take a look at the bridges from the construction done back in the 80's and subsequently abandoned. Used generally by contractors to get equipment across those creeks and rivers without having to tie up a lane, many of them are showing some bridge joint issues probably caused by lack of use and seasonal temperature changes over the past 35-40 years. Mostly expansion heaves.
Truck traffic on this route during my time on it was light to moderate. Mostly logistics operators and agricultural trucking.
Of course I hit the "end" of that work north of Carlyle where the new route stops abruptly at IL-127 and made the jog through downtown Carlyle to goes back to the 1928 alignment.
Once back on this old alignment, you see many of the functional and engineering compromises that have been kicked forward by IDOT over the years. Guardrails over a few swamps that are directly up against the highway with no shoulders. Much the route had been resurfaced, but there are many farms, small industrial and the usual grid county roads that intersect the road every mile.
It stayed this way all the way to Sandoval. Once there US-50 has to make yet another jog through town (showing off its 1928 roots) and the traffic types changed immediately once we continued east of town. IDOT recently cancelled the US-51 Bypass east of Sandoval where they had planned for a cloverleaf with a future US-50 north bypass. Won't happen now.
Truck traffic picked up markedly and grew as we got closer to Salem. The AADT between Odin and Salem is over 10k and I believe it. XPO Logistics has a large truck terminal between Salem and Odin and those were the trucks we were seeing. I can only assume those westbound trucks were headed to Centralia. Between XPO and I-57 is the usual collection of fast food, small industrial, etc. The former printing plant off Selmaville Road is totally gone and so was the truck traffic to/from it.
There is no bypass of Salem for US-50 and so you are limited by typical urban speed limits. The Union Pacific bridge over the highway was upgraded some 20 years ago, so there are no clearance issues.
One odd result of a bridge upgrade is a jog over the creek from the C&EI Reservoir. They built the new bridge next to the old one, but didn't put a lot in getting the road realigned to the new bridge.
Not a big deal really, but when you come down the hill towards the bridge, you clearly see this sudden jog to the north for no reason.
Between Salem and Xenia, it follows the old ROW, but IDOT has replaced all of the narrow bridges and widened & paved for shoulders where possible. Much better than the 1970's where there were no shoulders and lots of narrow bridges. But this segment still has lots of farm access, driveways, county roads, etc.
Also a difference in the types of trucks heading west changed. No longer logistics firms, about 40% of the trucks were from WalMart and the rest industrial supplier types. This reflects traffic generated by the distro center in Olney and some of the industry in Flora.
Once at Xenia you get moved back over to the expressway ROW that was not finished and eventually cancelled. Interesting to look at the abandoned pavement next to you all dirty and unused with grass pushing up through the cracks.
IDOT still owns a good wide ROW here and they have no farms, driveways or small business access on this segment, but the county roads remain.
Along here it is cosigned with US-45 as it bypasses Flora and Clay City. Flora has built local streets which serve as frontage roads. It appears the planned intersections with US-45 were all to be ground level and traffic lights prevail here. Lots of truck skid marks, so this tells you the light seems to surprise many of the drivers.
The road is still in good shape here.
Once past Flora and Clay City, the trucks going west are now 99% WalMart based. I think I counted only 1 non-WalMart truck all the way to Olney.
From south of Clay City all the way to Vincennes, US-50 uses a ROW that was developed back in the early 60's as part of the planned I-64 to Louisville. You can see "old US 50" a few times while driving this route which was put down in 1923 and appears got its last update sometime after WW2.
Also of historical note, the Old US 50 bridges over the Big Muddy and Small Muddy Creeks are still standing. With their unique brick sidewalls and trusses you will see some old style road building techniques. Built in 1923 you can read more here. https://bridgehunter.com/il/clay/big-muddy-creek/ (https://bridgehunter.com/il/clay/big-muddy-creek/)
You can get to them, but you cannot drive across them as they have been closed.
The segment from Olney to Vincennes is showing its age. IDOT has inexplicably allowed driveways to be built between Olney and Sumner. I can only assume with the old US-50 (former IL-250) so close by this may have been a compromise, but 1 development clearly shows they did not force them to build a frontage access. The many proposals to update this route will have issues with ROW. From Sumner to the Wabash River, it is much improved. The truck types now have shifted to WalMart in both directions. The rest of the trucks were agricultural.
Well, that is US-50 today across Illinois.
That section with all the unused bridges fascinated me when I drove it several years ago.
Great description. The unused bridges were from the supplemental freeway upgrade and the Xenia to Indiana section were from the 64 ROW. It's great how you point that out.
Do you think the old bridges are usable with a re deck?
I was reviewing the unbuilt freeway sections. Can we consider 50 inbuilt or with the addition of the Lebanon bypass was it In fact completed much as the expressway segments should be considered completed?
Quote from: 3467 on June 22, 2021, 11:55:09 AM
Great description. The unused bridges were from the supplemental freeway upgrade and the Xenia to Indiana section were from the 64 ROW. It's great how you point that out.
Do you think the old bridges are usable with a re deck?
I was reviewing the unbuilt freeway sections. Can we consider 50 inbuilt or with the addition of the Lebanon bypass was it In fact completed much as the expressway segments should be considered completed?
As for the old bridges, redeck = yes, the problem would be with scour at the piers. If the route gets funding ever again, I would say they would probably replace the stringer steel with pre-stressed concrete.
It is a mixed bag from Summerfield east. Because the project was cancelled so hastily in 1974, there is a mix of expressway with diamond exits (Breese), some county roads where the intersections were put back in, some with overpasses, but a 2 lane stub intersection put in. All of the county road overpasses that were built support a 4 lane expressway.
The road suffers from incompletion and anyone looking to expand anything industrial or for logistics will lose because they can't check the box for a 4 lane highway. So essentially it's a frankenstein, part Super 2, part 4 lane expressway, part rural arterial.
Having seen the route from IL-158 to Lebanon, I can easily say the bypass is needed, but it has to go west of IL-4 to be fully functional.
Reconnecting the bypass to the 1973 project at Summerfield should be fairly easy. All the dirt the contractors amassed for the planned overpass is still there (covered with trees) and IDOT still owns all the ROW between Summerfield and IL-4.
I like the term Frankenstein for that segment.
It looks like and it's just the maps in the MYP that the bypass will begin at 4. Think they will remember 50 on to 4 to 64?
I count about 21 miles from Carlyle to the 4 lane before 57 and then about 10 to Xenia.
I also wonder if it's that development after Olney that Ed observed that scuttled the 4 lane?
Quote from: 3467 on June 23, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
I like the term Frankenstein for that segment.
It looks like and it's just the maps in the MYP that the bypass will begin at 4. Think they will remember 50 on to 4 to 64?
I count about 21 miles from Carlyle to the 4 lane before 57 and then about 10 to Xenia.
I also wonder if it's that development after Olney that Ed observed that scuttled the 4 lane?
I suspect the "study" of a 4 lane from Olney (WalMart) to Lawrenceville was to politically placate the locals involved in the US 50 Coalition.
There have been several studies to restart the 4 lane project on US 50 in SE Illinois since the late 1970's. but have not gone anywhere.
The studies either disappeared, never finished or found no impact. I remember one that actually finished back in the late 1980's but couldn't get funding from IDOT or from the Fed's.
Another one was triggered by the RCDC for a new proposed business/logistics park east of Olney, but fell apart when CSX wanted top dollar to put a rail siding in and Olney didn't want to put a new water main in until they had a tenant confirmed.
They are trying.
I used 50 from Salem to Carlyle on my way home Friday.
Your analysis is spot-on. The section between Sandoval and Carlyle is narrow, with no shoulders. Thanks to the several inches of rain on Friday many ditches were full, almost up to the road.
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
At first this part of US-50 was to be the future route of what is today I-64. The Vincennes Bypass with US-50/US-41 and US-150 was built with this future in mind in 1961-1964. The proposed 4 lane route was to continue on to Louisville using US-150.
But after the planned I-64 route was moved farther south, Illinois had attempted to upgrade US-50 as part of the funding around the supplemental highway system. Illinois had plans to try and get so many square miles of Illinois within a certain distance of a 4 lane highway to support industry and commerce.
Today US-50 doesn't support the needed AADT in a couple of places which has forestalled any attempts to have it be 4 laned across the state.
Since the work on US-50 as part of the supplementary routes lost funding in 1974 and finally was removed from the plan completely, industry along the route has since either closed or relocated closer to either I-70 or I-57.
Its a catch-22. Many logistics firms or industrial park developers like the easy access to cheaper labor these towns provide, but always have 4 lane access a required checkbox for their consideration to facilitate easy truck access.
This is why the US-50 Coalition formed in Illinois several years ago to attempt to bring a highway that would attract these types of commercial developments.
There are a couple of threads in the Ohio Valley section that describe these attempts over the years in more detail, so i won't repeat them here.
The subject keeps coming up probably because Illinois spent a large amount of dough acquiring ROW and getting the future 4 lane highway planned for from 1956 until finally in 1986, when Gov. James "Big Jim" Thompson had the funding moved from US-50 to extend I-39 to Bloomington as an Interstate to entice Mitsubishi to build their factory in Normal. (now it is a Rivian factory building EV trucks and SUV's).
This is why US-50 across the state in various places has abandoned modern river bridges and sections of pavement for a 4 lane freeway that were never used and lots of wide ROW.
Is this neglect of US50 due to a lack of Downstate political clout?
Quote from: cbalducc on July 28, 2022, 10:40:13 PM
Is this neglect of US50 due to a lack of Downstate political clout?
Yes for the most part.
In the 1950's and 1960's, Illinois had a large amount of clout in the House Ways and Means.
But as the 80's came along, it was really only Dan Rostenkowski who had retained that clout at the Federal level.
When SE Illinois was pumping a lot of oil from 1925 to around 1982 (this area of the US did not suffer from a depression as much as others) it was able to maintain a large amount of clout through political giving.
But as the population of Illinois stopped growing and the shift moved west, they started losing seats in the house. The population center of the US in 1950 was between Dundas and Olney Illinois.
This caused the SE Illinois congressional district to get larger and larger and essentially diluted their ability to get funding.
On top of this the oil output for the area has dwindled to a trickle.
At one time in the 1960's SE Illinois was slated to get a 4 lane freeway (US-50), an international airport (Lawrenceville-Vincennes Airport), and a TV station (WUSI-TV).
The road we already know about. The airport which used to have scheduled flights (some international), has regressed into a civil airport and WUSI-TV which came very close to shutting down, is a multi-channel digital tower for Southern Illinois University.
Olney, Flora, Salem, Lawrenceville, have all been trying to increase their economic vitality using the corridor. Olney had several federal grant applications in to build a large logistics and business park on US50 east of town but had to let them lapse because they couldn't get citizen funding to extend the water services. With the State of Illinois so broke, they can't help.
So the area is essentially regressing from it use for oil, small industry and agriculture, to mostly agriculture.
Briefly, there was a movement to bring oil fracking to the area and fracking equipment and local permits were actually issued for the city of Grayville to start. However, a moratorium was issued by the state until new environmental rules could be established. The frackers waited and when the rules were finally released, it made fracking so completely uneconomical, they gave up and pulled their equipment. Contrast this is with yet more liberal standards for the coal strip miners and reduction of the taxes collected from them. They scar the earth with impunity and its all ok.
So any hope of bringing oil economics back to the area was essentially lost. And there is still a very large amount of oil in the region, just not reachable using standard drilling methods. A recent oil find near Salem using horizontal drilling methods discovered under Stephen Forbes state park, is still producing today. The guy who bought the rights back in the 80's when others gave up is sitting pretty good right now.
Since IDOT essentially gave up on US-50 in 2017 east of Salem from a funding perspective, nothing significant is on the books today. I remember going to a public hearing in 1974 for the planned expressway!
I think if the scope is rolled back a little and simply make US-50 a Super-2 from Carlyle to Vincennes with a Salem bypass on the south end, I think it will meet 100% of the areas needs for trucks and industry for the next 30 years. And if oil fracking becomes viable again, it will be positioned properly. Also it should cut down on the collisions at these flashing yellow and flashing red intersections. Which is most definitely an issue on many parts of the route.
Quote from: edwaleni on July 29, 2022, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: cbalducc on July 28, 2022, 10:40:13 PM
Is this neglect of US50 due to a lack of Downstate political clout?
Yes for the most part.
In the 1950's and 1960's, Illinois had a large amount of clout in the House Ways and Means.
But as the 80's came along, it was really only Dan Rostenkowski who had retained that clout at the Federal level.
When SE Illinois was pumping a lot of oil from 1925 to around 1982 (this area of the US did not suffer from a depression as much as others) it was able to maintain a large amount of clout through political giving.
But as the population of Illinois stopped growing and the shift moved west, they started losing seats in the house. The population center of the US in 1950 was between Dundas and Olney Illinois.
This caused the SE Illinois congressional district to get larger and larger and essentially diluted their ability to get funding.
On top of this the oil output for the area has dwindled to a trickle.
At one time in the 1960's SE Illinois was slated to get a 4 lane freeway (US-50), an international airport (Lawrenceville-Vincennes Airport), and a TV station (WUSI-TV).
The road we already know about. The airport which used to have scheduled flights (some international), has regressed into a civil airport and WUSI-TV which came very close to shutting down, is a multi-channel digital tower for Southern Illinois University.
Olney, Flora, Salem, Lawrenceville, have all been trying to increase their economic vitality using the corridor. Olney had several federal grant applications in to build a large logistics and business park on US50 east of town but had to let them lapse because they couldn't get citizen funding to extend the water services. With the State of Illinois so broke, they can't help.
So the area is essentially regressing from it use for oil, small industry and agriculture, to mostly agriculture.
Briefly, there was a movement to bring oil fracking to the area and fracking equipment and local permits were actually issued for the city of Grayville to start. However, a moratorium was issued by the state until new environmental rules could be established. The frackers waited and when the rules were finally released, it made fracking so completely uneconomical, they gave up and pulled their equipment. Contrast this is with yet more liberal standards for the coal strip miners and reduction of the taxes collected from them. They scar the earth with impunity and its all ok.
So any hope of bringing oil economics back to the area was essentially lost. And there is still a very large amount of oil in the region, just not reachable using standard drilling methods. A recent oil find near Salem using horizontal drilling methods discovered under Stephen Forbes state park, is still producing today. The guy who bought the rights back in the 80's when others gave up is sitting pretty good right now.
Since IDOT essentially gave up on US-50 in 2017 east of Salem from a funding perspective, nothing significant is on the books today. I remember going to a public hearing in 1974 for the planned expressway!
I think if the scope is rolled back a little and simply make US-50 a Super-2 from Carlyle to Vincennes with a Salem bypass on the south end, I think it will meet 100% of the areas needs for trucks and industry for the next 30 years. And if oil fracking becomes viable again, it will be positioned properly. Also it should cut down on the collisions at these flashing yellow and flashing red intersections. Which is most definitely an issue on many parts of the route.
Thank you. But I was actually referring to Downstate's lack of clout in state politics. Chicago Metro gets all the goodies, and the rest of the state gets crumbs.
Quote from: cbalducc on July 29, 2022, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 29, 2022, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: cbalducc on July 28, 2022, 10:40:13 PM
Is this neglect of US50 due to a lack of Downstate political clout?
Yes for the most part.
In the 1950's and 1960's, Illinois had a large amount of clout in the House Ways and Means.
But as the 80's came along, it was really only Dan Rostenkowski who had retained that clout at the Federal level.
When SE Illinois was pumping a lot of oil from 1925 to around 1982 (this area of the US did not suffer from a depression as much as others) it was able to maintain a large amount of clout through political giving.
But as the population of Illinois stopped growing and the shift moved west, they started losing seats in the house. The population center of the US in 1950 was between Dundas and Olney Illinois.
This caused the SE Illinois congressional district to get larger and larger and essentially diluted their ability to get funding.
On top of this the oil output for the area has dwindled to a trickle.
At one time in the 1960's SE Illinois was slated to get a 4 lane freeway (US-50), an international airport (Lawrenceville-Vincennes Airport), and a TV station (WUSI-TV).
The road we already know about. The airport which used to have scheduled flights (some international), has regressed into a civil airport and WUSI-TV which came very close to shutting down, is a multi-channel digital tower for Southern Illinois University.
Olney, Flora, Salem, Lawrenceville, have all been trying to increase their economic vitality using the corridor. Olney had several federal grant applications in to build a large logistics and business park on US50 east of town but had to let them lapse because they couldn't get citizen funding to extend the water services. With the State of Illinois so broke, they can't help.
So the area is essentially regressing from it use for oil, small industry and agriculture, to mostly agriculture.
Briefly, there was a movement to bring oil fracking to the area and fracking equipment and local permits were actually issued for the city of Grayville to start. However, a moratorium was issued by the state until new environmental rules could be established. The frackers waited and when the rules were finally released, it made fracking so completely uneconomical, they gave up and pulled their equipment. Contrast this is with yet more liberal standards for the coal strip miners and reduction of the taxes collected from them. They scar the earth with impunity and its all ok.
So any hope of bringing oil economics back to the area was essentially lost. And there is still a very large amount of oil in the region, just not reachable using standard drilling methods. A recent oil find near Salem using horizontal drilling methods discovered under Stephen Forbes state park, is still producing today. The guy who bought the rights back in the 80's when others gave up is sitting pretty good right now.
Since IDOT essentially gave up on US-50 in 2017 east of Salem from a funding perspective, nothing significant is on the books today. I remember going to a public hearing in 1974 for the planned expressway!
I think if the scope is rolled back a little and simply make US-50 a Super-2 from Carlyle to Vincennes with a Salem bypass on the south end, I think it will meet 100% of the areas needs for trucks and industry for the next 30 years. And if oil fracking becomes viable again, it will be positioned properly. Also it should cut down on the collisions at these flashing yellow and flashing red intersections. Which is most definitely an issue on many parts of the route.
Thank you. But I was actually referring to Downstate's lack of clout in state politics. Chicago Metro gets all the goodies, and the rest of the state gets crumbs.
It really comes down to "he who gives the most, gets the most". Chicago Metro overtook the rest of Illinois in political power years ago and therefore the "goodies" as you say then to flow north.
The last time southern Illinois had an effective counter weight to Chicago was when Jim Edgar was Governor (he was from Charleston) and Frank Watson was the ranking member in the legislature (he was from Greenville).
They were able to somewhat contain the prolific spending to some degree by getting agreements to limit budget growth. But after the GOP lost the majority in both houses, public service pensions and educational benefits went through the roof.
It really comes down to population and growth outside the Chicago Metro and it has been pretty much negative. After NAFTA was passed by Congress, the small industrial base in southern Illinois was nearly wiped out.
Several towns in and around the Murphysboro/Carbondale/Benton MSA have shown growth, but most of the rest are negative. Most of the kids who grow up in southern Illinois don't return. They go to college and find careers that their hometown can't provide.
To get any sense of empowerment politically, essentially southern, western, and northwest Illinois would have to form a bloc to offset the Chicago influence. And many times the needs of Moline and Peoria just don't line up with the needs south of US-50. So the rot continues.
There has been some new developments on US 50 around Crackerneck Road in Clinton County as IDOT has used some of that ROW to build a new "frontage road" that will go all the way towards the one bridge.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s politically this part of Southern Illinois leaned towards the Democrats but since then it has flipped hardcore Republican even in Madison and St. Clair counties. Madison County is Republican controlled for the past few years and while St. Clair remains Democrat controlled that party has barely held a majority and has even seen some high profile flips (including longtime friend of Democrat chairman Mark Kern that was the mayor of Belleville losing his own reelection bid last year). This same change of shift is being fueled at the statewide level, with Effingham based Darren Bailey winning the Republican primary for Governor and Edwardsville based Tom Devore winning Republican primary for Attorney General back in June.
Quote from: kharvey10 on August 22, 2022, 12:18:30 AM
There has been some new developments on US 50 around Crackerneck Road in Clinton County as IDOT has used some of that ROW to build a new "frontage road" that will go all the way towards the one bridge.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s politically this part of Southern Illinois leaned towards the Democrats but since then it has flipped hardcore Republican even in Madison and St. Clair counties. Madison County is Republican controlled for the past few years and while St. Clair remains Democrat controlled that party has barely held a majority and has even seen some high profile flips (including longtime friend of Democrat chairman Mark Kern that was the mayor of Belleville losing his own reelection bid last year). This same change of shift is being fueled at the statewide level, with Effingham based Darren Bailey winning the Republican primary for Governor and Edwardsville based Tom Devore winning Republican primary for Attorney General back in June.
TRENTON— The Illinois Department of Transportation (IDOT) announced that it has begun construction of a research & certification track along US 50 near Trenton. The purpose of this track is to certify, validate, and calibrate the Department and contractor equipment which will aid in the construction of smoother, safer, and structurally sound roads. This work is expected to be completed by Spring 2022.
Drivers are urged to reduce speed, be alert for changing conditions, obey all construction signage, and refrain from using mobile devices while approaching and traveling through the work zone.
Today I'm going to run across 50 from Sandoval to Vincennes. The short Sandoval to Salem stretch is part of my usual route to Mt. Carmel, but I haven't been west of Salem on 50 since probably 2006, at least not the whole way east.
Quote from: adt1982 on September 03, 2022, 08:55:34 AM
Today I'm going to run across 50 from Sandoval to Vincennes. The short Sandoval to Salem stretch is part of my usual route to Mt. Carmel, but I haven't been west of Salem on 50 since probably 2006, at least not the whole way east.
East of Salem was repaved in places, but in areas there are no shoulders. Once you are past Xenia the rip/raps get more frequent, the bridge over the Big Muddy should be done. But Olney to Vincennes has some bad spots before you reach the Red Skeleton Bridge
Oops. That should have said east of Salem.
I did notice the new pavement east of there. The Big Muddy bridge is done. East of Olney is rather bumpy in places. Work on a bridge at the east interchange for BUS 50 to Lawrenceville has it down to one lane, and there's construction on the Red Skelton Bridge. Traffic was very light once I was more than a few miles east of Salem.
There was a lot of traffic on 51 in both directions south of Salem both in the morning and even about 8:30 in the evening when I went through, which was unusual.
For the return trip I took IL 15 all the way to Ashley and then 51 north. I've found that no matter which route I take to or from Mt. Carmel they all take about the same total time.
Quote from: adt1982 on September 04, 2022, 07:22:12 PM
Oops. That should have said east of Salem.
I did notice the new pavement east of there. The Big Muddy bridge is done. East of Olney is rather bumpy in places. Work on a bridge at the east interchange for BUS 50 to Lawrenceville has it down to one lane, and there's construction on the Red Skelton Bridge. Traffic was very light once I was more than a few miles east of Salem.
There was a lot of traffic on 51 in both directions south of Salem both in the morning and even about 8:30 in the evening when I went through, which was unusual.
For the return trip I took IL 15 all the way to Ashley and then 51 north. I've found that no matter which route I take to or from Mt. Carmel they all take about the same total time.
I am surprised IL-15 through Mt. Vernon didn't slow you down (or US-51 in downtown Centralia) I haven't been that way in many years, but I have stopped at IL-15 and I-57 for food/gas quite a few times.
How is the US-51 four lane south of Centralia? I remember the huge political delegation that petitioned IDOT to get that built when they were dropping the US-51 plans left and right south of Decatur.
I'd love to see the US 51 4-Lane pushed even further south, but I acknowledge it won't be pushed past I-64
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 11, 2022, 10:11:18 PM
I'd love to see the US 51 4-Lane pushed even further south, but I acknowledge it won't be pushed past I-64
You will probably see an expansion of highway from the Metro-East to Murphysboro/Carbondale via Pickneyville before they try to do something to US-51 that far south (if anything).
IDOT has been systematically removing any ideas of the US-51 spine line concept from the 1950's below Pana.
- Sandoval Bypass = cancelled
- Centralia to Sandoval = cancelled
- Sandoval to Vandalia = cancelled
- Vandalia Bypass = current scope was not approved by locals (concept was bad IMHO)
- Vandalia to Pana = cancelled
- Pana Bypass = cancelled, not wanted by locals
Quote from: edwaleni on September 11, 2022, 01:13:38 AM
How is the US-51 four lane south of Centralia? I remember the huge political delegation that petitioned IDOT to get that built when they were dropping the US-51 plans left and right south of Decatur.
It's an expressway with one interchange between I-64 and Centralia, and the crossroads are low-volume, no signals on any of them until you are well into Centralia at Calumet Street on the one-way couple thru town. Checking the ADT, 5400-6800 on the expressway section and increasing slightly on the two directions of the one-way couple. This was justified as "interstate access to Centralia" and not necessarily as a building block to an overall 51 corridor improvement although it would function as such.
The EIS for 51 was cancelled in the Federal Register. I can get you the date.
Also US 30 and Peoria Bypass.
Quote from: edwaleni on September 11, 2022, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: adt1982 on September 04, 2022, 07:22:12 PM
Oops. That should have said east of Salem.
I did notice the new pavement east of there. The Big Muddy bridge is done. East of Olney is rather bumpy in places. Work on a bridge at the east interchange for BUS 50 to Lawrenceville has it down to one lane, and there's construction on the Red Skelton Bridge. Traffic was very light once I was more than a few miles east of Salem.
There was a lot of traffic on 51 in both directions south of Salem both in the morning and even about 8:30 in the evening when I went through, which was unusual.
For the return trip I took IL 15 all the way to Ashley and then 51 north. I've found that no matter which route I take to or from Mt. Carmel they all take about the same total time.
I am surprised IL-15 through Mt. Vernon didn't slow you down (or US-51 in downtown Centralia) I haven't been that way in many years, but I have stopped at IL-15 and I-57 for food/gas quite a few times.
How is the US-51 four lane south of Centralia? I remember the huge political delegation that petitioned IDOT to get that built when they were dropping the US-51 plans left and right south of Decatur.
I hit a couple lights in Mt. Vernon, but it didn't slow me down much. US 51 south of Centralia is in pretty good shape from what I could see, but it was dark and raining.
Quote from: adt1982 on September 17, 2022, 06:42:18 PM
I hit a couple lights in Mt. Vernon, but it didn't slow me down much.
Yeah, it's a long distance across Mount Vernon, but it's not a slog. There's downtown, and the area around I-57, but in between there aren't many lights to worry about.
Quote from: 3467 on September 12, 2022, 06:42:03 PM
The EIS for 51 was cancelled in the Federal Register. I can get you the date.
Also US 30 and Peoria Bypass.
February 13, 2020.
https://casetext.com/federal-register/environmental-impact-statement-christian-shelby-fayette-marion-clinton-jefferson-and-washington-counties-illinois
The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.
Quote from: 3467 on September 21, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.
The guy who ran the US 50 Coalition in Illinois left for another position not long after IDOT pulled the funding of the final EIS on the eastern end with no warning. The gentleman who served with him on the same coalition was the Mayor of Lebanon, who passed away before his bypass was finally funded. That particular one is currently in engineering. Nothing fancy there, just a 2 lane from Summerfield to IL-4 with a bridge over the CSX tracks. I don't even think they are going to build an approach at IL-4 for a future highway, just stub it with a traffic light and make everyone recross the tracks they built the bridge for or turn south down IL-4.
When IDOT publishes the site plans, I will take a look.
Quote from: edwaleni on September 22, 2022, 10:07:57 PM
Quote from: 3467 on September 21, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
The U.S. 30 project had a long discussion of the cancellation at the FEIS stage. It suggested 4 passing lanes and a couple of intersection proposals. The one at Emerson road is in the current MYP.
The U.S. 50 project cancellation is more mysterious.
The guy who ran the US 50 Coalition in Illinois left for another position not long after IDOT pulled the funding of the final EIS on the eastern end with no warning. The gentleman who served with him on the same coalition was the Mayor of Lebanon, who passed away before his bypass was finally funded. That particular one is currently in engineering. Nothing fancy there, just a 2 lane from Summerfield to IL-4 with a bridge over the CSX tracks. I don't even think they are going to build an approach at IL-4 for a future highway, just stub it with a traffic light and make everyone recross the tracks they built the bridge for or turn south down IL-4.
When IDOT publishes the site plans, I will take a look.
That's disappointing. I was hoping the bypass would go from Summerfield to I-64; I thought that was the plan at one point but this article from a few years ago (https://www.ibjonline.com/2016/03/05/lebanon-mayor-pushing-u-s-50-bypass-around-community/) which interviews Lebanon's late mayor makes it clear that the corridor you mentioned was the only one being considered in recent years. I do hope they build it with the potential to four lane it in the future like US 50 east to Lake Carlyle.
While road geeks and some locals may want US 50 four lanes east to Indiana, there really is no demand to widen it to four lanes between Carlyle and I-57. I've driven that a few times when I dated someone from Salem and that section has very little traffic. US 50 west of Carlyle mostly supports commuter traffic to St Louis during the week and vacation traffic to Lake Carlyle on weekends; there's just not much thru traffic.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville. Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville. A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville. As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on September 23, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville. Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville. A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville. As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.
Had the US 50 interests prevailed over the US 460 interests for I-64's final routing, I bet I-24 would have been built to at least I-255, if not into East St Louis and to the Mississippi River
Regarding that straight "line" (really curve) between Chicago and Nashville, it is pretty darn close to US 41. Not exact, and it certainly does not go thru Indy nor Louisville
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 23, 2022, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on September 23, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 23, 2022, 12:51:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US-50 corridor through southern IL supposed to be the original route for I-64 in the state?
Yes, that is correct until it was lobbied to go south towards Evansville. Had they been successful in moving it all the way to Evansville, it would have been able to service Mt. Vernon (IL), Carmi, Evansville, and be in closer proximity to Owensboro, KY before heading toward Louisville. A few additional travel miles, yes, but if you draw a line between Chicago and Nashville, it doesn't go through Indianapolis and Louisville. As a result, then a US 50 corridor through Illinois and into Indiana might make more sense due to the distance.
Had the US 50 interests prevailed over the US 460 interests for I-64's final routing, I bet I-24 would have been built to at least I-255, if not into East St Louis and to the Mississippi River
Regarding that straight "line" (really curve) between Chicago and Nashville, it is pretty darn close to US 41. Not exact, and it certainly does not go thru Indy nor Louisville
Thing is, slight movements off a straight line between two relatively distant points doesn't make that much difference in the overall mileage. I was surprised to find out when I lived in St Louis that it's only 15 miles further to Chicago via I-70/57 as it is via I-55. I certainly never suspected it when the map shows just how far out of the way Effingham is. It was also about the same time back then as the Bloomington bypass was still two lanes (and Springfield's still is though that is gratefully changing soon). Part of the surprisingly short difference is the jogs I-55 makes as it bypasses Springfield, Lincoln, and Bloomington, but I-57 does the same around Kankakee.
I'm too lazy today to figure out what the distance difference is between Chicago and Nashville via Evansville vs via Indy/Louisville but I'm guessing it's no more than 10% of the total mileage between the endpoints. (Don't forget to include the I-64/69 Evansville bypass when doing the calculations.)
As for US-50, yes it was supposed to be I-64. The only portion built to that requirement was from BUSN US-50 @ Lawrenceville and as part of the Vincennes Bypass for US-41, US-50 and US-150.
The only major remnant of that aborted Interstate effort in 1962 is the US-50 Red Skelton Bridge over the Wabash River. Built with the idea of handling lots of truck traffic from Cincy and Louisville to St Louis, it never saw the expected AADT it was designed for.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbridgehunter.com%2Fphotos%2F49%2F70%2F497016-L.jpg&hash=b2cee5992b1794b2c779400f4adec30169ffeb59)
Quote from: skluth on September 23, 2022, 05:22:26 PM
I'm too lazy today to figure out what the distance difference is between Chicago and Nashville via Evansville vs via Indy/Louisville but I'm guessing it's no more than 10% of the total mileage between the endpoints. (Don't forget to include the I-64/69 Evansville bypass when doing the calculations.)
Using Google and going from around the Circle Interchange to where I-24 crosses Main Street around downtown Nashville:
* Using the US 41-IN 63 corridor from I-80/I-94, I-69 to get around Evansville, then down the Pennyrile to I-24: 448 miles
* Using I-65 between I-80/I-94 and Nashville: 471 miles
* Using I-65, IN 37, I-69, and the Pennyrile: 492 miles
* Using I-57 and I-24: 506 miles
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Not necessary and the tax base would not support it. Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Not necessary and the tax base would not support it. Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.
No shit? Taxing and not spending would be idiotic. Spending and not taxing would be even more idiotic.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Not necessary and the tax base would not support it. Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.
No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.
The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.
Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.
Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.
As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.
The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.
Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.
The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.
- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes
In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.
That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.
This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.
Quote from: edwaleni on September 23, 2022, 08:01:22 PM
As for US-50, yes it was supposed to be I-64. The only portion built to that requirement was from BUSN US-50 @ Lawrenceville and as part of the Vincennes Bypass for US-41, US-50 and US-150.
The only major remnant of that aborted Interstate effort in 1962 is the US-50 Red Skelton Bridge over the Wabash River. Built with the idea of handling lots of truck traffic from Cincy and Louisville to St Louis, it never saw the expected AADT it was designed for.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbridgehunter.com%2Fphotos%2F49%2F70%2F497016-L.jpg&hash=b2cee5992b1794b2c779400f4adec30169ffeb59)
So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 25, 2022, 10:14:36 AM
So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
Yup, the original 64 routing followed US 50 in IL and US 150 in IN between St Louis and Louisville
Quote from: edwaleni on September 24, 2022, 10:05:38 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Not necessary and the tax base would not support it. Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.
No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.
The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.
Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.
Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.
As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.
The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.
Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.
The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.
- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes
In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.
That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.
This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.
I agree with most of this. US 50 definitely acts as mostly a local route with some segments getting much more traffic than others. I disagree with the Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem. A bypass of Lebanon at the west end of the corridor to US 50 is definitely needed and may possibly be the one place where a four lane segment makes sense (especially if it also incorporates an IL 4 bypass of Lebanon). There is absolutely no need for an upgraded road east of Carlyle to Sandoval; a US 50 bypass of Carlyle wouldn't be easy as it would either involve building a highway through parkland and a cemetery or a longer bypass south of town. I can somewhat see the need between Sandoval and Salem, especially if US 51 is upgraded from Centralia to Vandalia and points north but I wouldn't count on that happening soon either. Upgrading US 50 east of I-57 should involve a Super 2 bypass of Salem, upgrading US 50 to Super 2 status through Olney and Flora, and interchanges at the crossroads to the small built-up communities like Xenia, Noble, and Bridgeport. I'd also prohibit any new accesses to US 50 along the entire corridor except between Carlyle and Sandoval. These upgrades could be done in phases for easier budgeting.
Something like this notional concept (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1YwxG2TdtM-FeKI6TwswJrY9Xrj5Ael0&usp=sharing). Note there are two bypasses of Salem. Only one would be built depending on whether it extends west to US 51 or I-57 and upgrades to US 51 to Vandalia and/or Centralia. The Salem bypass is probably the last thing built besides a few random interchanges.
Quote from: skluth on September 25, 2022, 01:55:53 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 24, 2022, 10:05:38 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Should US 50 have been four lanes across Southern Illinois? Of course, that is assuming there would be sufficient funding for the design and construction of a four-lane US 50.
Not necessary and the tax base would not support it. Of course I do believe IL is a bond, tax and spend road state.
No, as it stands today, it isn't justified to have US-50 be a 4 lane across the state based strictly on current traffic trends.
The US 50 Coalition was trying to get a long term plan in place to support the redevelopment of small industry along the corridor.
Much of this was lost not only when the interstate highways bypassed the corridor, the ongoing neglect of small industry by railroads (or their abandonment) along the way, but also due to NAFTA, which caused a large exodus of manufacturing.
Since many business and industrial parks can't attract good paying tenants without proximity to a regional 4 lane highway, essentially to support trucks, these collection of pro-business/pro-highway entities petition the state government to upgrade the highways nearby.
As noted before, US-50 *was* a major trucking arterial between Cincy and St Louis prior to the Interstate Highway System. Some of the original highway designers were going to take the route and turn it into Interstate grade with a split near Shoals, Indiana that would aggregate/split traffic (depending on your direction of travel) between Cincy, Louisville and St Louis.
The route was moved south closer to Evansville and on to Louisville, and Cincy traffic goes by way of Indianapolis now.
Today the route is a "Frankenstein" mix of 4 lane limited access, 4 lane all access, Super 2, Standard 2 and in places not so super 2 as it still uses a ROW from 1927.
The usage is broken up in 3 sections from a AADT perspective.
- O'Fallon to Carlye
- Sandoval (technically Odin) to Salem
- Olney to Vincennes
In between these sections, the traffic counts fall off dramatically and don't justify a large degree of work, if anything it could be justified strictly for safety purposes.
That is why (IMHO) the route should baselined out as a Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem (to I-57) and from Flora (US-45) to Vincennes (US-41) and a Standard 2 from Salem to Flora and someday replace that old geometry from Salem to Xenia.
This will help meet the business and industrial parks appeal to new tenants, increase the safety by getting truck traffic out of certain city centers, and remove a large number of those flashing red's that cause so many accidents at night.
I agree with most of this. US 50 definitely acts as mostly a local route with some segments getting much more traffic than others. I disagree with the Super 2 from O'Fallon to Salem. A bypass of Lebanon at the west end of the corridor to US 50 is definitely needed and may possibly be the one place where a four lane segment makes sense (especially if it also incorporates an IL 4 bypass of Lebanon). There is absolutely no need for an upgraded road east of Carlyle to Sandoval; a US 50 bypass of Carlyle wouldn't be easy as it would either involve building a highway through parkland and a cemetery or a longer bypass south of town. I can somewhat see the need between Sandoval and Salem, especially if US 51 is upgraded from Centralia to Vandalia and points north but I wouldn't count on that happening soon either. Upgrading US 50 east of I-57 should involve a Super 2 bypass of Salem, upgrading US 50 to Super 2 status through Olney and Flora, and interchanges at the crossroads to the small built-up communities like Xenia, Noble, and Bridgeport. I'd also prohibit any new accesses to US 50 along the entire corridor except between Carlyle and Sandoval. These upgrades could be done in phases for easier budgeting.
Something like this notional concept (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1YwxG2TdtM-FeKI6TwswJrY9Xrj5Ael0&usp=sharing). Note there are two bypasses of Salem. Only one would be built depending on whether it extends west to US 51 or I-57 and upgrades to US 51 to Vandalia and/or Centralia. The Salem bypass is probably the last thing built besides a few random interchanges.
The last study I saw was to bypass Caryle to the south starting near Flat Branch Road crossing old-US 50 and turning east at Highline Road. The new road would cross the Kaskaskia River at a bluff on the east bank. Then come back north east of Huey. Use the existing ROW until west of Sandoval where it pops north of town and a cloverleaf was planned with US-51 NE of Sandoval. US-51 was supposed to bypass Sandoval to the east. That is dead now.
As for a Salem Bypass, none have been planned or discussed to my knowledge. Most of the traffic west of Salem is due to a large number of logistics firms having truck terminals right off the exit ramps for I-57. This explains the really high AADT between I-57 and Odin. I thought this was driving traffic to Centralia via US-51, but the AADT south of Sandoval doesn't show that.
As for a Salem bypass, it would most likely go to the south, use a former railroad ROW which for the most part is Blair Street now. This ROW goes all the way to the UP line and then have it come back up east of town. I don't think Salem or IDOT would have any interest in any bypass because the AADT east of Salem is very, very low. IDOT fixed the bridge under the UP for clearance issues back in the 1990's, so the bypass is just not needed right now.
The only reason I bring up Super 2 is because IDOT already owns most of the land, this will get the local towns and their business park developments to quit biting their ankles and continue to waste money on EIS'es for a four lane road.
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 25, 2022, 11:31:13 AM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on September 25, 2022, 10:14:36 AM
So if 64 had followed 50 in IL, I assume then that 64 would have followed 150 on a Vincennes-Washington-Paoli route?
Yup, the original 64 routing followed US 50 in IL and US 150 in IN between St Louis and Louisville
Probably better farther from 70