There has been considerable damage to the Ukrainian road infrastructure during the Russian invasion. This kind of damage to roads has not been seen in Europe since 1945.
As of this writing, the invasion is underway for a week, most bridges have been blown up by the Ukrainian army to slow the Russian advance to major cities. The documentation of destroyed infrastructure on Twitter has been much more detailed than in most other wars.
Blowing up road bridges has been particularly concentrated in the central northern regions, especially in Chernihiv and Kyiv oblasts, less so in the south (as of this post). However the Ukrainian army has started to blow up railway bridges in southern Ukraine. Several bridges have also been blown up in Kharkiv oblast.
As of this post, no Dnieper Bridge or dam from Kyiv south has been destroyed.
I've been able to geolocate all but one bridge.
M-02 bridge over Seym River in Baturyn destroyed (Chernihiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3394801,32.9080183,597m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/vw3yxNC.jpgp)
R-30 bridge over Irpin River between Kiev and Irpin destroyed (Kiev Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4911141,30.2596918,304m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/j7TbP7z.jpg)
R-07 bridge over railroad destroyed in Kupiansk (Kharkiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.7093052,37.6094084,238m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/DREV76Y.jpg)
R-79 bridge over Oskil River blown up in Senkove (Kharkiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.5269663,37.6919423,451m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496943186597617671
Furthermore, heavy fighting was reported at the Antonovsky Bridge (M-14) over the Dnieper River near Kherson. The bridge has not been damaged significantly. Russian forces captured the hydroelectric dam of R-47 near Nova Khakova as well.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.669909,32.7240687,2779m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497120639903092736
Bridge of R-69 over the Dnieper Canal near the Kiev Dam destroyed (Kiev Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5843327,30.5427811,371m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497138623820357635
Border bridge of R-56 across the Dnieper at the Belarusian border destroyed (Chernihiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.394973,30.6455273,1032m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/ynl9Gm9.jpg)
Bridge of R-12 over the Snov River east of Chernihiv. The other bridge was already decommissioned.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5583497,31.5495953,374m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/5uqW3zb.jpg)
The M-06 bridge across the Irpin River near Stoyanka, just outside of Kiev, has been blown up. This is the main route from Kiev to Western Ukraine, significantly limiting traffic and evacuation from Kiev.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4470501,30.2350051,221m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/H2dN8l7.jpg)
The Inhulsky Bridge of M-14 at Mykolaiv. This is a four lane drawbridge, footage showed that the bridge was raised. This is not the main bridge to Odessa, but to the north.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9797013,31.9906028,251m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/kJUvYc6.jpg)
Bridge of R-66 at Troitske (Luhansk oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.9183129,38.2943849,194m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/KrSaW4Q.jpg)
The large four lane bridge of M-01 over the Desna River in Chernihiv has been blown up. It's part of the Chernihiv bypass.
Location: Google Maps (http://"https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3702979,31.2125329,596m/data=!3m1!1e3")
(https://i.imgur.com/n3zykIi.jpg)
I could not localize this bridge. Was mentioned to be a pedestrian bridge in Chernihiv, but it is quite large and a different type than the pedestrian bridge over the Desna there.
(https://i.imgur.com/AuZh1uT.jpg)
A bridge of R-06 near Nova Odesa (Mykolaiv oblast)
location: Google Maps (http://"https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3268879,31.7401816,265m/data=!3m1!1e3")
(https://i.imgur.com/N4UQONC.jpg)
Bridge of M-07 between Kiev and Irpin. This looks like it was bombed, not intentionally blown up.
location: Google Maps (http://"https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5533269,30.2847685,170m/data=!3m1!1e3")
(https://i.imgur.com/sgOLbZt.jpg)
A bridge of a local road at Sartana near Mariupol
location: Google Maps (http://"https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1729088,37.7065413,325m/data=!3m1!1e3")
(https://i.imgur.com/bNDmBDG.jpg)
Those pictures are heartbreaking from a nonpartisan perspective of destroying perfectly useful infrastructure. I will, as moderator, request that ALL DISCUSSION pertain only to the infrastructure and that there is NO DISCUSSION OF THE CONFLICT ITSELF. Thank you.
Any ideas as to how much of this infrastructure was built post-independence versus during Soviet occupation?
Ukravtodor (the Ukraine DOT) has been urging local authorities to assist them in removing guide signs, as the Russians seem to display a lack of knowledge of Ukrainian geography. A Photoshopped image they posted to their official Facebook page has gone viral:
(https://i0.wp.com/signsbyjake.com/wp-content/uploads/274219682_321509086674375_957467661382887879_n.jpg?fit=2048%2C1366&ssl=1)
Translation:
Top line: FUCK OFF
Middle line: AGAIN FUCK OFF
Bottom line: FUCK OFF BACK TO RUSSIA
Translation of the original image caption:
Quote from: Ukravtodor
[in Ukrainian] We are dismantling road signs on all roads of the country. Priority # 1 - signs, names of settlements. We're passing the collected signs to local authorities and road workers.
The enemy has a pathetic connection, they do not focus on the terrain. Let's help them go straight to hell.
Ukravtodor calls on all road organizations, territorial communities, and local governments to immediately begin dismantling nearby road signs.
[in Russian] FUCK YOU
...I have a feeling that's not something KYTC would let H.B. Elkins get away with posting. :-D
From another thread:
Quote from: Kniwt on March 02, 2022, 01:28:18 PM
Ukrainians have covered the destinations on this motorway sign and have replaced them all with "The Hague":
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM2CGiVXEAMSDTY?format=jpg)
Source: https://twitter.com/KatyaYushchenko/status/1498997307945140225
Quote from: jakeroot on March 02, 2022, 06:40:16 PM
Any ideas as to how much of this infrastructure was built post-independence versus during Soviet occupation?
Most of it would date to Soviet times. Contrary to popular belief of a 'railway only' policy in the USSR, they actually invested substantially in the road network, but generally a few decades later than in the west.
You can see the history of Ukraine by looking at the road network. The west was historically ruled by Poland and Hungary-Austria. They developed a dense and more organic network of roads. The east was ruled by the Russian Empire, which did not invest in roads until after World War II, there, roads are typically straighter and often bypass the settlements. So the road network in western Ukraine is more similar to Central Europe, whereas the road network in eastern Ukraine is more similar to Russia.
Ukraine has seen only limited investment in its road network after independence. Not much happened during the 1990s and most roads were in poor condition by the early 2000s. They went on a road rehabilitation programme from 2007-2012 in anticipation of the Euro 2012 soccer tournament, which was co-hosted by Ukraine. Current president Zelensky went on a 'Big Construction' (Bigbud) programme to modernize the country's infrastructure. This has had real impact on the quality of Ukrainian road infrastructure, which is usually assessed to be one of the worst in Europe. However three decades of neglect is not repaired in a few years.
When I was in college with a major in international studies and a focus on Russia, I was taught by a bunch of professors that were former U.S. intelligence community analysts/agents and the like. One of them in particular loved bashing Russia on its lack of a real highway system, pointing out that Moscow and Saint Petersburg were connected by a two-lane road for decades (college was in the later 1990s for me). Not very much later, when I learned a more comprehensive view of Russia's infrastructure -- along with a deeper history of U.S. intelligence efforts -- it was evident that this was only one exanple where our intelligence community inappropriately viewed Russia through an American lens and thus hampered their abilities.
The rate of bridge destruction has slowed considerably over the past 5-7 days, presumably due to the slow Russian advance.
However some more bridges were destroyed since early March, mostly on secondary territorial roads (T-roads):
Road T-1508 near Kalynivka, just outside of Mykolaiv. Blown up with a Russian tank on top of it.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.033991,32.2182175,199m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/ecBnETN.jpg)
The bridge of N-21 over the Severskyi Donets River near Shchastia has been blown up. This bridge was a military checkpoint since the original War in Donbass in 2014. It's not far north of Luhansk.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.7303718,39.2567037,472m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/RLjXlK3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qB3PXwb.jpg)
The bridge of road T-2104 over the Severskyi Donets in Staryj Saltiv (40 km east of Kharkiv) has been blown up. (footage (https://t.me/objectivetv/8646))
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.07778,36.8114,1377m/data=!3m1!1e3
The bridge of road T-2114 in Dvorichna has been blown up (100 km east of Kharkiv).
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8550251,37.6825421,336m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/oHEZBGf.jpg)
The bridge of road T-0608 over the Irsha River has been blown up or bombarded in Malyn (Zhytomyr oblast).
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.7627596,29.2393023,302m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/p4k3tZ3.jpg)
Quote from: Chris on March 02, 2022, 11:41:11 AM
There has been considerable damage to the Ukrainian road infrastructure during the Russian invasion. This kind of damage to roads has not been seen in Europe since 1945.
So this level of destruction exceeds that of Serbia's attacks on Slovenia, Croation, Bosnia, and Kosovo during the Yugoslavian War of the 1990's?
Most of the destruction to roads and bridges during the Yugoslav wars was the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999, where they destroyed several Danube bridges.
However in Ukraine it's taking place over a vastly larger front.
[This post and subsequent were split off from a thread in the Sports forum of all places. -S.]
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: Takumi on March 12, 2022, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 03, 2020, 01:07:04 AM
the MLS
Not grammatically correct, and few people would make the mistake of using "the MLB".
Unfortunately, "the MLB" is a phrase that's growing in use. I suspect "the MLS" is too.
That's a function of using initialisms as words, because emelbee or emelless are not yet words.
Unless you're Ukraine, it's time to get over it.
The Ukraine.
Quote from: Alps on March 13, 2022, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: Takumi on March 12, 2022, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 03, 2020, 01:07:04 AM
the MLS
Not grammatically correct, and few people would make the mistake of using "the MLB".
Unfortunately, "the MLB" is a phrase that's growing in use. I suspect "the MLS" is too.
That's a function of using initialisms as words, because emelbee or emelless are not yet words.
Unless you're Ukraine, it's time to get over it.
The Ukraine.
"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...
A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2022, 06:24:52 PM
"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...
A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?
And I suppose there's no negative connotation to a certain other European nation being called "the Lowlands".
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2022, 06:24:52 PM
"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...
A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?
And I suppose there's no negative connotation to a certain other European nation being called "the Lowlands".
Well, it's an accurate description, at least, as a quarter of the place is below sea level, and about half of it is no more than one meter above sea level. But in any case, the government of the Netherlands refers to it as "the Netherlands" in their own official English-language communications, so they seem to have no problem with it, whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 06:01:15 PM
... whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo. And, frankly, it's kind of annoying when people get upset when people call their land the same thing they've always called it, especially for reasons that aren't obvious. The Ivory Coast, Burma, Bombay, Swaziland, the Sears Tower, the artist formerly and now once again known as Prince, etc, etc...
And now I'm waiting for West Virginia to start throwing a fit that their name makes them seem less important than Regular Virginia.
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 06:10:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 06:01:15 PM
... whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo. And, frankly, it's kind of annoying when people get upset when people call their land the same thing they've always called it, especially for reasons that aren't obvious. The Ivory Coast, Burma, Bombay, Swaziland, the Sears Tower, the artist formerly and now once again known as Prince, etc, etc...
It's not really an apples-to-apples because the Dutch haven't spent the last 30 years trying to distance themselves from a prior colonial overlord, which is what a lot of Ukraine's actions in this regard are geared toward - Ukraine's government spent that same 30 years asking not to be called "the Ukraine" also asking English speakers to stop using "Kiev" to refer to their capital city before most people listened.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 07:44:38 PM
It's not really an apples-to-apples because the Dutch haven't spent the last 30 years trying to distance themselves from a prior colonial overlord, which is what a lot of Ukraine's actions in this regard are geared toward - Ukraine's government spent that same 30 years asking not to be called "the Ukraine" also asking English speakers to stop using "Kiev" to refer to their capital city before most people listened.
So I guess my point is that such is Ukraine's prerogative, but that doesn't make it everyone else's prerogative.
I mean, Joe Schmoe doesn't really care one way or the other if Ukraine is trying to distance itself from a prior colonial overlord. Until such time as the country changes its name to something completely different, then Joe Schmoe is just going to call it what he and his parents have
always called it. And even then, if it were to change its name to something completely different, it would naturally take some time or even an entire generation for people on the other side of the world to naturally make the switch.
For example, I don't know with certainty if it's preferable to say "Yukon" or "The Yukon", "Seychelles" or "The Seychelles", "Congo" or "The Congo", "Maldives" or "The Maldives". And, unless I have an active interest in the culture of that place, I'm not likely to really care all that much–whether their ambassador has made an official statement about it or not. Considering that I'm much more interested in foreign cultures than most people, then, I find it exceedingly unlikely that most people care one tiny bit whether Ukranians prefer "Ukraine" or "The Ukraine". I imagine that, if they've taken any interest in the topic at all, it's taken a war to even bring it to their attention. In fact, I'd warrant a further guess that the majority of people reading this very thread had no clue until this year that we're supposed to be saying "Ukraine" instead of "The Ukraine".
Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 06:10:38 PM
...
And now I'm waiting for West Virginia to start throwing a fit that their name makes them seem less important than Regular Virginia.
I assume you saw a week or two ago when a contestant on Jeopardy referred to "Regular Virginia" and Ken Jennings suggested "Original Recipe Virginia."
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.
In my experience, the average people I know would respond to an explanation like the one I gave with "Huh, didn't know that. They really don't like being called that?" "Nope." "Guess I won't call them that then." And then they don't call them that anymore.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.
In my experience, the average people I know would respond to an explanation like the one I gave with "Huh, didn't know that. They really don't like being called that?" "Nope." "Guess I won't call them that then." And then they don't call them that anymore.
Well, as I said...
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 06:10:38 PM
Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo.
At least, not until the last few weeks, in the case of Ukraine. And, even then, I haven't heard a single news segment informing me not to say "The Ukraine".
I'm not sure how we even got on the subject of Ukraine in a sports thread but...
I actually haven't even heard "the Ukraine" in the past few weeks. Now that I think about it, I guess I have heard that in the past, but since the current crisis began, I've only ever heard and said just plain Ukraine.
Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:14:49 PM
I'm not sure how we even got on the subject of Ukraine in a sports thread but...
I actually haven't even heard "the Ukraine" in the past few weeks. Now that I think about it, I guess I have heard that in the past, but since the current crisis began, I've only ever heard and said just plain Ukraine.
I mostly only said "Ukraine" since I was a kid because I thought the "the" was stupid and unnecessary, long before I learned there was a political headache involved.
Since we're on the subject...Ukraine has one of the best-designed border signs I've seen.
(https://i.imgur.com/yIoc6EO.jpg)
How many state welcome signs do you know of that can work in the state seal, the flag, and the name of the state in two different languages, without ending up a cluttered mess?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 10:25:47 PM
Since we're on the subject...Ukraine has one of the best-designed border signs I've seen.
(https://i.imgur.com/yIoc6EO.jpg)
How many state welcome signs do you know of that can work in the state seal, the flag, and the name of the state in two different languages, without ending up a cluttered mess?
This easily wins the thread, and for good reason.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 10:25:47 PM
How many state welcome signs do you know of that can work in the state seal, the flag, and the name of the state in two different languages, without ending up a cluttered mess?
I think that's a function of minimalist design, something that hasn't always caught on for long in the Americas. There seems to be more backlash when a design becomes more simplified (though I think there's complaints and artificial amounts of public outcry when
anything changes). Some of that may be as the times of fashion and technology changes, too.
We seem to gravitate to more baroque and detailed designs in seals, flags, banners, team logos, et cetera for some reason; generally leaving the concepts of minimalism and empty space to corporate logos and pictographs.
In the case of the Ukrainian welcome sign at a border; a US state would include a slogan, possibly a governor's name, some official state "object", along with at least two types of typefaces.
Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."
One of the first things that the Russian army did upon capturing Mariupol was replace the city limit signs to Russian spec. Note the spelling change from Ukrainian Маріу́поль to Russian Мариу́поль.
(https://preview.redd.it/1mdfblr7mox81.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8ff938e5c5e76343c92113bb2dbe165385b8c433)
This sort of thing is precisely why Ukraine is touchy about things like "Kiev" vs. "Kyiv", "the Ukraine" vs. "Ukraine", etc.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 02, 2022, 12:43:20 AM
One of the first things that the Russian army did upon capturing Mariupol was replace the city limit signs to Russian spec. Note the spelling change from Ukrainian Маріу́поль to Russian Мариу́поль.
(https://preview.redd.it/1mdfblr7mox81.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8ff938e5c5e76343c92113bb2dbe165385b8c433)
This sort of thing is precisely why Ukraine is touchy about things like "Kiev" vs. "Kyiv", "the Ukraine" vs. "Ukraine", etc.
...and taking away the bilingual aspect of the Ukrainian-spec signage.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-explosion-kherson-bridge-crimea-putin-birthday-rcna51324 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-explosion-kherson-bridge-crimea-putin-birthday-rcna51324)
Here is more a bridge has been destroyed in Russia as a result of war.
Note this is bound to be politically loaded here.
https://news.yahoo.com/hours-putin-turns-70-bridge-213607917.html
That bridge has been doomed for a long time. In fact, I'm surprised it took this long to get wasted. Ukraine must have been waiting for the right moment when it would provide an additional tactical advantage on top of the strategic advantage. It could signal their intent to liberate all of Crimea and not just drive the Ruskies out of Kherson. They've been saying as much all summer, but things might be happening sooner rather than later. Winter is coming...
^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.
Quote from: oscar on October 10, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.
That
was what the plan was...until the Russians found out they didn't actually have any boats on hand that would be suitable for use as ferries. Oops.
The explosion only actually destroyed one carriageway. The other is damaged, enough to have warped from the heat, but is still standing. The Russians are operating one lane on the damaged carriageway, with pilot cars, and not allowing trucks or buses across. (I've seen speculation that this is probably not safe, since there's no way a safety inspection as thorough as what we'd expect in the United States could have taken place in the time before they reopened it.) There have been reports of 6-km-long queues to head from Crimea into Russia.
Kyiv is staying quiet about exactly how the bridge was damaged–for several hours after the attack the only Ukrainian government acknowledgement of the attack was a tweet reading merely "sick burn" in English. Last I heard, they still haven't officially taken responsibility for the attack. The prevailing Internet theory is that the SBU (the Ukrainian intelligence agency) was involved, and that it was done by blowing up a truck loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer (the same explosive used in the Oklahoma City and Nashville Christmas bombings). It is not known whether the driver of the truck, who died in the explosion, was part of the operation or not.
The Crimea Bridge consists of two parallel bridges, which are physically separate, a higher railway bridge and a motorway bridge. Both bridges consists of two parallel spans built right up to each other. This explains why the Crimea-bound roadway collapsed but the Russia-bound roadway did not.
The road bridge is in fact a steel bridge, unlike the Antonivka Bridge across the Dnipro River at Kherson, which is a reinforced concrete box girder bridge. The Antonivka Bridge has been pounded by HIMARS launched GMLRS rockets. Some estimates are that 120 - 140 GMLRS rockets have been fired at the Antonivka Bridge. This has rendered it unsafe for motorized traffic, but it hasn't collapsed. There are large holes in it.
The Ukrainians have targeted the larger box girder section of the Antonivka Bridge and not the beam bridge segment (which might have been repaired easier). However this shows that concrete bridges are sturdy structures that cannot easily be destroyed by artillery fire. This bridge is also not very old, it was built from 1977 to 1985.
Aerial photo of the Antonivka Bridge near Kherson. The section under constant fire is on the left (south side).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/View_of_Kherson_and_Antonovskiy_bridge%2C_2006.jpg/1280px-View_of_Kherson_and_Antonovskiy_bridge%2C_2006.jpg)
Quote from: Road Hog on June 01, 2022, 10:28:06 PM
Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."
But Eastern Slavic languages don't even have definite articles.
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 11, 2022, 07:57:54 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 01, 2022, 10:28:06 PM
Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."
But Eastern Slavic languages don't even have definite articles.
But English does.
In English, we generally don't put articles in front of country names, but we do put them in front of
region names. This is why Ukrainians don't like when people use "the Ukraine" in English - it suggests it's merely a region instead of a country on its own. In addition, the name "Ukraine" literally means something along the lines of "borderlands" which in today's political climate might suggest a role as a borderland region of Russia.
It's similar to how we use "the Southwest" for the region in the US, or "the Midlands" for the region in England.
Quote from: Chris on October 11, 2022, 04:29:36 PM
The road bridge is in fact a steel bridge, unlike the Antonivka Bridge across the Dnipro River at Kherson, which is a reinforced concrete box girder bridge. The Antonivka Bridge has been pounded by HIMARS launched GMLRS rockets. Some estimates are that 120 - 140 GMLRS rockets have been fired at the Antonivka Bridge. This has rendered it unsafe for motorized traffic, but it hasn't collapsed. There are large holes in it.
The Ukrainians have targeted the larger box girder section of the Antonivka Bridge and not the beam bridge segment (which might have been repaired easier). However this shows that concrete bridges are sturdy structures that cannot easily be destroyed by artillery fire. This bridge is also not very old, it was built from 1977 to 1985.
This is the first time I've ever actually seen a picture of the Kherson area. It looks like a lovely area; it's a shame that it's been subject to such heavy fighting.
I've seen posts from Ukrainians commenting that the Antonivka Bridge is somewhat typical of Soviet-era bridge construction–spartan in appearance, but built like a tank (moreso than an actual Soviet tank, as it turns out). There's a similar story with the bridge at Nova Kakhova.
Soviet bridges are generally seen as oversized, maybe they were designed to withstand tanks, bombing and other abuse in wartime.
The Russians fired over a dozen cruise missiles on the Dniester road/rail bridge at Zatoka (southwest of Odessa) and they only managed to incur relatively minor damage.
https://twitter.com/ghostofkebab/status/1518939823842766848
More details of the damage at the Crimea Bridge:
(https://i.imgur.com/n3JcJri.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kgSkAT2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nxHbt6j.jpg)
Ukraine renamed a lot of Russian-themed streets.
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukrainians-vote-to-change-names-of-russian-themed-streets-squares.html
Apparently Russia wants to rename some streets back.
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1612720258921684992
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2022, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 10, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.
That was what the plan was...until the Russians found out they didn't actually have any boats on hand that would be suitable for use as ferries. Oops.
The explosion only actually destroyed one carriageway. The other is damaged, enough to have warped from the heat, but is still standing. The Russians are operating one lane on the damaged carriageway, with pilot cars, and not allowing trucks or buses across. (I've seen speculation that this is probably not safe, since there's no way a safety inspection as thorough as what we'd expect in the United States could have taken place in the time before they reopened it.) There have been reports of 6-km-long queues to head from Crimea into Russia.
Kyiv is staying quiet about exactly how the bridge was damaged–for several hours after the attack the only Ukrainian government acknowledgement of the attack was a tweet reading merely "sick burn" in English. Last I heard, they still haven't officially taken responsibility for the attack. The prevailing Internet theory is that the SBU (the Ukrainian intelligence agency) was involved, and that it was done by blowing up a truck loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer (the same explosive used in the Oklahoma City and Nashville Christmas bombings). It is not known whether the driver of the truck, who died in the explosion, was part of the operation or not.
Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship. :-D :-D :-D
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 02:12:49 PM
Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship. :-D :-D :-D
The number of Russian claims of military equipment going up in flames due to improper cigarette disposal is kind of hilarious.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 02:12:49 PM
Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship. :-D :-D :-D
The number of Russian claims of military equipment going up in flames due to improper cigarette disposal is kind of hilarious.
The number of Russians who oppose the war
and mysteriously fall out of windows is also "odd".
I just did some Google surfing and I want to make some notes:
There's only one proper rural motorway in Ukraine: E105 from the far outskirts of Dnipro to the outskirts of Kharkiv. The proper motorway section is 157 km long, part of the 218 km route from Dnipro to Kharkiv.
There are some other four-lane routes, too. Generally, they have narrow grassed medians with nearly-continuous metal guardrails. Opportunities to cross are rare, with right-turn-only access to and from side roads and u-turn ramps provided at varying distances. Interchanges are few, and a surprising proportion of them are full four-loop cloverleafs. Simple diamonds are extremely rare, as are traffic signals and roundabouts. Interchanges are more common and more familiar in layout on the newer sections.
Corridors include:
E95 from Odesa to Kyiv and beyond to a point north of Chernihiv, a total of 641 km. this corridor ends almost 50 km short of the border with Belarus. In fact, none of the four-lane corridors connect to any international border, east or west. I'm not gonna do a big Streetview tour, but check this out: an interchange that's nearly complete except that the bridge isn't connected to the approach roads! (https://goo.gl/maps/eF6M4N6M3GW1hUzu6) There are two or three of these on E95-- I didn't see any anywhere else. WTF?
E40, Rivne via Kyiv to Chutove, 728 km. I was unpleasantly amazed to discover that there aren't four-fane highways from Kyiv to either Lviv or Kharkiv; it's another 211 km from Rivne to Lviv and another 92 km from Chutove to Kharkiv. 342 km east of Kyiv, E40 passes through Poltava, which has a motorway spur headed a short distance toward Dnipro, though along a corridor with no existing major roads. For that matter, while it appears that E40 from Chutove to Kharkiv will be widened in situ, a case could be made to strike out on a new terrain alignment that joins E105 to connect to Kharkiv instead.
Finally, there H20 from Mariupol via Donetsk toward Kramatorsk, something like 200 km-- Google won't plot a direct route through the active combat zone. This route the least elaborate in terms of intersection treatments, though the Donetsk bypass is pretty impressive.
Kyiv is interesting, too. Maybe later.
Quote from: Tom958 on January 23, 2023, 07:39:43 PM
Finally, there H20 from Mariupol via Donetsk toward Kramatorsk, something like 200 km-- Google won't plot a direct route through the active combat zone. This route the least elaborate in terms of intersection treatments, though the Donetsk bypass is pretty impressive.
It looked like the Donetsk Bypass was set to become the Donetsk Ring Road, but the northern sections that had been built have since been closed and have
fallen into disrepair severely damaged by war, and other sections that were partially built were abandoned.
I assume this is the result of a change in local politics (to put it lightly). The nearby airport became the epicentre for initial Ukraine-Russia battles, which caused severe damage to surrounding infrastructure, including this new freeway.
The Donetsk Bypass was under construction when it became a front line in 2014-2015. Trenches have been dug across it at several locations.
Wow, people actually read that! Thanks!
Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2023, 03:40:25 AM
The Donetsk Bypass was under construction when it became a front line in 2014-2015. Trenches have been dug across it at several locations.
I swear they weren't there the last time I looked, but there are 2011 Streetviews for the bypass and most of Donetsk now, with the bypass clearly open for traffic. :clap:
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2023, 09:24:47 PMIt looked like the Donetsk Bypass was set to become the Donetsk Ring Road, but the northern sections that had been built have since been closed and have fallen into disrepair severely damaged by war, and other sections that were partially built were abandoned. I assume this is the result of a change in local politics (to put it lightly). The nearby airport became the epicentre for initial Ukraine-Russia battles, which caused severe damage to surrounding infrastructure, including this new freeway.
That's what it looked like to me, too. And there's still fairly intense fighting around there, with no end in sight.
The western bypass was not yet completed by the time the initial War in Donbas broke out in 2014.
Fighting was really intense at that time, most satellite towns near the bypass were completely destroyed, as well as the Donetsk Airport.
Right now the front line hasn't moved much, it's around where the western / northwestern bypass is. Russian advances to the suburbs of Mari'inka and Avdi'ivka have stalled out for almost a year now. Much of that is done by the Donetsk People's Republic armed forces, which are combat ineffective due to heavy losses on the periphery of Donetsk city.
Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?
Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2023, 06:29:54 AM
Fighting was really intense at that time, most satellite towns near the bypass were completely destroyed, as well as the Donetsk Airport.
The pictures I'm seeing of the airport are just mind-boggling. An impressive infrastructure project on its own, completely laid to waste only a couple of years after opening. Never seen anything quite like it.
Quote from: Evan_Th on January 24, 2023, 01:37:07 PM
Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?
Very, very unlikely. From what the war has done to the region as a whole, I doubt a completed ring road would have changed anything. Maybe accelerate the evacuation of citizens?
Quote from: Evan_Th on January 24, 2023, 01:37:07 PM
Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?
Doubtful. The cause of the fighting in 2014 is more or less the same as it is now–Vladimir Putin wants the Donbas because it has a lot of natural resources, primarily fossil fuels. The 2014 fighting was basically an attempt at doing this through backdoor means, putting up Russian-backed separatist governments so that Russia could pretend that the people in the region actually wanted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. The precipitating event for the 2022 invasion was Putin recognizing the Donetsk and Luhansk separatist governments as independent, and then invading Ukraine to "protect" these governments from the Ukrainian government (who, as you might expect, have always treated them as illegitimate).
The overpasses of the Donetsk bypass are known to be used as shelter for artillery barrages.
The wholesale destruction of Ukrainian cities and infrastructure is just astounding. This really is a 'Cold War becomes hot' scenario, only 1,000 kilometers farther east than assumed before 1991.
Mariupol is the largest city to be laid to waste, almost the entire city was destroyed by artillery bombardments. Large amounts of apartment towers have been torn down in the past 6 months. Some have been rebuilt by the Russians though quality is reported to be extremely poor, it's a propaganda stunt.
At the risk of getting too political, Russia will soon have to pick and choose where to send its missiles because they are getting low on supply and Ukraine is enjoying a shootdown rate of over 75 percent. The hypersonic missiles are the only ones Ukraine can't shoot down at the moment. Ukraine is also swatting the slower Iranian drones like flies.
Does anyone here know how route numbers are marked in the field in Ukraine? To my surprise, my perusal of major junctions around Kiev indicates that route numbers aren't posted at all-- just the destinations in (I presume) Ukrainian and English. The only exception I found is this map (!) (https://www.google.com/maps/@50.3733748,30.4534765,3a,22.8y,124.1h,92.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s980YYYNE6ap2ze7K-JObVQ!2e0!3e11!7i13312!8i6656) posted at the junction of the Kiev ring road and the highway to Odesa showing alternate routes to the latter. South is at the top even though Odesa is to the right here. It doesn't surprise me that the map uses Ukrainian numbers rather than E 95 for the Odesa highway and E 40 for the ring road, but it does surprise me that no route numbers are included on the big blue signs.
Route signing was traditionally quite poor. Ukraine has an extensive system of route numbering:
* M-roads, these are international routes and main corridors. M comes from міжнародні автомобільні дороги
* N-roads, these are the national roads. N comes from національні автомобільні дороги. Many maps display them as a Latin 'H', while the Cyrillic н means N.
* R-roads, these are the regional roads. R comes from регіональна автомобільна дорога. Many maps display them as a Latin 'P', while the Cyrillic Р means R.
* T-roads, these are the territorial roads. T comes from територіальні автомобільні дороги
And local roads also appear to be numbered.
Traditionally, the M-roads were the best signed, at least on trailblazers. N-roads were almost never signed, but newer signage does include them. R-roads (P) are also signed on trailblazers and occassionally on directional signage. The T-roads are indicated on newer signage.
P- and T-roads are known to be displayed both on a yellow shield as well as on a blue background.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1763/42424139965_18d90d59ab_b.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2oGWFV6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/y4PUIuf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iOE74UF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yyWlm3v.jpg)
Quote from: Chris on February 11, 2023, 06:59:57 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1763/42424139965_18d90d59ab_b.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2oGWFV6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/y4PUIuf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iOE74UF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yyWlm3v.jpg)
Thanks. Still, though, I can't find anything resembling any of this on Streetview, even at the site of your best photo, on the Naddnipryans'ke Highway headed south from central Kiev: https://goo.gl/maps/Bu1T1yzkRNabN84t7. I am genuinely perplexed.
Wait: Here's one (https://goo.gl/maps/kMAFAEg1AbrypJqn9), out in the countryside. This Streetview's from 2020-- the others I've seen are mostly from 2015 or so. Could it be that modern signage didn't start appearing until recently? That's not really believable.
I did find another big map (https://goo.gl/maps/uaFfxfve3xXhf4zj7), though.
Quote from: Tom958 on February 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AMCould it be that modern signage didn't start appearing until recently? That's not really believable.
Recent Ukrainian governments launched the Велике будівництво (big works) programme, which aimed at rapidly modernizing the Ukrainian road system, which mostly dated back to Soviet times and was in very poor condition.
A World Economic Forum survey in 2018 ranked the Ukrainian road network 130 out of 137 countries worldwide, even behind many African countries. Ukraine has a large road network, but most of it had seen no serious investment since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Zelensky and his prime ministers aimed to improve this. Part of the Велике будівництво (big works) programme was not only resurfacing but also a more modern road signage system. The Ukrainian road authority Ukravtodor also began to use social media to let the country know what they're doing. So most of these signed routes only appeared in the field over the past 3 years or so.
Of course, this development was abruptly cut off in February 2022...
Heh. Great Works, I would think would be a better translation.
More information can be found here:
Overhaul of direction signing standards in Ukraine (http://a3.kyiv.ua/projects/road-wayfinding/)
The new direction sign design manual (http://roadguide.a3.kyiv.ua/#/)
Roads.org.uk's piece on the new Ukrainian signs (https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/ukraine)
When it was still in the Soviet Union, signing in Ukraine was supposed to conform to the relevant GOST standard and thus match that provided in Russia proper. The most comprehensive GOST standard dealing with signing was issued in the mid-1970's and has standard alphabets for legend appearing in Cyrillic, Latin, and Georgian script. The one that currently governs in Russia is thinner and less comprehensive, but does still include Latin characters for major corridors that receive bilingual signing.
Both Russia and Ukraine have autonomous highway agencies (Rosavtodor and Ukravtodor respectively), as well as tendering platforms where public bodies advertise contracts for construction. I have downloaded design documentation from Russia, which maintains availability in arrears of tender closing (which is far from universal--e.g., in western Europe the Netherlands does, but France and Germany do not). However, I had not gotten to Ukraine before February 2022.
This sign panel detail, which is pattern-accurate, is pretty typical of Russian signs without Latin legend. As you can see, the aesthetic is very Soviet--functional without sophistication.
(https://i.imgur.com/QXHJIPZ.png)
And this one has Russian placenames in Latin transliteration. (I've seen "Moscow," but otherwise I don't think use of English exonyms is the norm.)
(https://i.imgur.com/mflwHzc.png)
Older Ukrainian signs would have looked similar, as have signs installed by Russians in the areas they have occupied during the present war, in which they have also pointedly omitted Latin transliteration.
And just to add: the Russian phrase for "traffic organization," which forms the usual section title for the part of each construction document package that deals with signing and marking, abbreviates in Cyrillic as ОДД, or ODD. So there is explicit acknowledgment that our hobby interest is odd.
Ah, Rostov. I lived there for a month in the mid-1990s. At least back then, I think I saw one bona fide road sign either there or in Volgograd, where I lived for another bunch of months. In other words, signage was nonexistent.
What we call street blades were actually painted on the side of buildings. And most looked like citizens painted them themselves.
Oh, hey, so the new mixed-case signs with the Transport-derived font did get posted in the field before the war. I had seen the updated standards book mentioned on some roadgeek website, but never seen photos of any sign actually using it, so I was afraid that the author of the piece I read had misidentified a think piece or bit of roadgeek fantasy for a real standards document.
Given how many signs have been removed and/or destroyed during the war, I would imagine Ukravtodor is in a much better starting place for a widespread signage refresh after the war ends.
Quote from: Rothman on February 11, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
Heh. Great Works, I would think would be a better translation.
Probably, though the official government website uses 'bigbud', I think they wanted to differentiate how they were going to upgrade the country; by big construction projects instead of piecemeal projects.
https://bigbud.kmu.gov.ua/
An interesting policy position is to use concrete roads, because it reduces the dependency on imported materials (like oil). This was already policy before the war, as concrete could be produced domestically. Only a very tiny percentage of roads were built in concrete though, some projects in southern Ukraine were finished before the war and they recently completed some new roads in western Ukraine.
Although Ukraine is tied up in a war on the scale of World War II, not the entire male population has been mobilized. They still execute some road projects with local contractors, though I assume the international contractors have left the country. A major project was the new Dnipro Crossing at Kremenchuk, which was done by a Turkish company. Also nearing construction phase was KOD = Київська обхідна дорога, which was the planned beltway around Kyiv.
BTW, the newish font used on Ukrainian signs is open source and available here: https://github.com/agentyzmin/Road-UA-Font. Courtesy of the Roads.co.uk site linked above.
Meanwhile, the old font (which is still used in Russia and on new signs in Russian-occupied parts of Ukraine) can be found here: https://github.com/shoorick/russian-road-sign-font
two more strategic-level items:
I didn't notice it on Google Maps, but E 373 looked strikingly smooth on one of the military maps I've seen. Looking more closely, it avoids towns (though some nearby towns have expanded up to and across it) and appears to have a high design speed, suggesting it was built relatively recently. It runs 488 km westward from the northwest corner of Kyiv's main ring road more or less directly toward Lublin, Poland, and thence toward Warsaw and Berlin. It's an efficient enough highway that it's Google's preferred route from Kyiv to Warsaw (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Kyiv+%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2/Warszawa,+Poland/@51.2148937,23.4880405,527000m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x40d4cf4ee15a4505:0x764931d2170146fe!2m2!1d30.5234!2d50.4501!1m5!1m1!1s0x471ecc669a869f01:0x72f0be2a88ead3fc!2m2!1d21.0122287!2d52.2296756!3e0) despite the border post on E 373 currently being closed, requiring a substantial detour.To me, it'd be better if there was a single full motorway from Kyiv to Rivne, then branching toward both lviv and Lublin and Warsaw, but I doubt that that'll ever happen even if the postwar economy is a runaway success.
Also, one video I watched speculated that the Russians would try to take out all the bridges across the Dnipro in the massive air strike that's currently being predicted. While this would certainly be catastrophic, it wouldn't be easy. There are 19 crossings of the Dnipro north of occupied Kherson, five of which are dam crest roads. Most are in the larger cities of Kyiv, Dnipro, and Zaporizhzhia where air defenses are surely located, but I hope some effort is made to protect the others.
Quote from: Tom958 on February 19, 2023, 05:10:54 PM
Also, one video I watched speculated that the Russians would try to take out all the bridges across the Dnipro in the massive air strike that's currently being predicted. While this would certainly be catastrophic, it wouldn't be easy. There are 19 crossings of the Dnipro north of occupied Kherson, five of which are dam crest roads. Most are in the larger cities of Kyiv, Dnipro, and Zaporizhzhia where air defenses are surely located, but I hope some effort is made to protect the others.
Kherson city is no longer occupied as of November 11. As a result, all Russian-occupied territory is now on the left (east/south) bank of the Dnipro. Russia destroying any bridges crossing the river would essentially be an acknowledgement that they are not going to control any more territory than what they have. Given that Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts were both "annexed" by Russia, and both include (Ukrainian-controlled) territory on the right bank of the Dnipro that would be inaccessible, that seems like an admission Russia is unlikely to make.
The Russians have so far only bombed a Dnipro crossing once, the Amursky Bridge in the city of Dnipro. It was hit by a missile and repaired within a day.
The Russians blew up the Antonivka Bridge near Kherson during their retreat from the right bank, but it was already severely damaged by a very large number of HIMARS strikes (some estimates are 120 HIMARS strikes on the bridge from July to November). The Ukrainians targeted the box girder segment of the bridge, which would be harder to repair. The Russians blew up the northern approach spans, which are more simple beam spans. They also blew up a couple of short spans of the road bridge at the Nova Kakhovka Dam. This has effectively shortened the front line by some 300 kilometers.
The Ukrainians destroyed the Dnipro bridge west of Chernihiv in February 2022. This bridge is on road R-56, on the Belarusian border. It's the only road bridge north of Kyiv which extends into Ukraine.