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Author Topic: Interstate 81 in Syracuse  (Read 151375 times)

seicer

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1150 on: January 13, 2022, 08:32:20 PM »

How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that weíve been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we canít do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isnít respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldnít every other city in America do the same thing?

Nothing knee-jerk about it; you are just taking it personally when someone disagrees with your viewpoint that we should just build portals to a tunnel with funds that don't exist for a tunnel that won't really exist in our lifetimes - or any lifetime. No highway DOT has built in the past at high expense roadway stubs with the goal of using it as a tool to push a highway through later. Countless examples litter across the US with examples of the reverse; stubs or ghostly remains of highways that were canceled through urban centers. This would be another example of that.

vdeane

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1151 on: January 13, 2022, 08:46:02 PM »

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1152 on: January 13, 2022, 09:23:01 PM »

How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that weíve been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we canít do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isnít respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldnít every other city in America do the same thing?

Nothing knee-jerk about it; you are just taking it personally when someone disagrees with your viewpoint that we should just build portals to a tunnel with funds that don't exist for a tunnel that won't really exist in our lifetimes - or any lifetime. No highway DOT has built in the past at high expense roadway stubs with the goal of using it as a tool to push a highway through later. Countless examples litter across the US with examples of the reverse; stubs or ghostly remains of highways that were canceled through urban centers. This would be another example of that.
I donít think Iím the one taking it personally. Iíd say that about someone who feels the need to insult someone else because they have a different opinion of how a freeway should be built :p

I also disageee about the stubs comparison to building for a future tunnel. The stubs that were built actually were for surface or elevated freeways planned to tear through neighborhoods. Not sure thatís a valid comparison to a tunnel passing underneath them. Lots of great opportunities for tunnels at stubs however whenever we can decide as a country to get serious about infrastructure instead of consistently acting like itís too expensive to building anything other than boulevards.
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Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1153 on: January 13, 2022, 09:55:18 PM »

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
These are pretty well occupied from looking around downtown.
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Alps

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1154 on: January 13, 2022, 11:09:34 PM »

This has been all of a sudden and is reflective of a change in what is considered a good vs. bad decision, and is compounded by previous projects never constructed that would divert traffic from the segments now considered bad.

seicer

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1155 on: January 14, 2022, 09:50:50 AM »

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
These are pretty well occupied from looking around downtown.

At or near 100% occupied, with variances for routine moves. I photographed and documented many of the projects for several developers and the change in activity street-level has been profound in just a few years. The next big push is to fill in the empty parking lots (that produce no tax revenue) between downtown and College Hill and stabilize and rehab the many grand houses in near-downtown. But for whatever activity that happens in the center part of the city, the metro area isn't really growing all that much. It's almost a zero-sum game but without a healthy heart, the rest of the body will deteriorate.

Right now, there are at least 2 large firms looking to snatch up some underutilized lots along the future BL I-81 corridor for residential developments. Land is devalued now but now that this project is a sure-deal, expect those land values to increase.

As a sidebar: There is an issue with empty condos but that affects mostly high-priced locales like New York City, where you have half of entire skyscrapers stand empty. Apartments generally don't get affected by investments companies. The Atlantic had a great article on it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/american-housing-has-gone-insane/605005/

roadman65

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1156 on: January 14, 2022, 11:12:18 AM »

^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.



I am aware of the conditions brought on by it all. The viaduct is in dyer need of replacement. So this was the best option out of others.

I am talking about this purge all of a sudden as other cities are studying this option like Dallas for a very congested freeway.  Itís not like the Sheridan which ended up becoming incomplete due to cancelling the part from itís northern end to somewhere along the New England Thruway, which made it useless.

Itís like we are going backwards instead of forwards. No I am not progressive except when it comes to technology though.  However, if itís a much needed freeway and if developers keep building ( which we all know wonít stop) they increase the need for more autos and the need for these roads due to not going for alternative transportation.
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Sheryl Crowe

Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1157 on: January 26, 2022, 04:11:29 PM »

THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG.

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
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kalvado

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1158 on: January 26, 2022, 04:17:45 PM »

THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG.

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
So... is something  going to actually happen this summer?
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Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1159 on: January 26, 2022, 04:22:43 PM »

THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG.

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
So... is something  going to actually happen this summer?

Sure.  Things are happening now.
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silverback1065

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1160 on: January 26, 2022, 08:45:49 PM »

"Street level community grid"  :-D pure political bullshit. I support the removal, but that's a total PR line  :-D
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1161 on: January 27, 2022, 03:05:58 PM »

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machias

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1162 on: March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM »

Iím curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
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Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1163 on: March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM »

Iím curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.
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machias

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1164 on: March 07, 2022, 09:01:37 PM »

Iím curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?
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Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1165 on: March 07, 2022, 10:03:36 PM »

Iím curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?
Ah, signage.  I read too quickly.  Yep, signage will change.
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roadman65

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1166 on: March 09, 2022, 08:44:58 PM »

I’m curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?

Watertown at 36 might end up staying as BL I-81 is still freeway connecting to I-81 north, however Binghamton May get greened out for Syracuse.  34A might see Watertown and Binghamton replace what is there now and Syracuse on supplemental signs instead.

https://goo.gl/maps/wHrTCBFYGSreGwzN9
The 34A ramp, though, already includes I-81 destinations.  Though why mention the Fairgrounds when Exit 39 is the exit to take for that is beyond comprehension to include with this.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 08:54:17 PM by roadman65 »
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1167 on: March 09, 2022, 09:07:31 PM »

Iím curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?

Watertown at 36 might end up staying as BL I-81 is still freeway connecting to I-81 north, however Binghamton May get greened out for Syracuse.  34A might see Watertown and Binghamton replace what is there now and Syracuse on supplemental signs instead.

https://goo.gl/maps/wHrTCBFYGSreGwzN9
The 34A ramp, though, already includes I-81 destinations.  Though why mention the Fairgrounds when Exit 39 is the exit to take for that is beyond comprehension to include with this.
While exit 39 is naturally the exit for the Fair if coming from Rochester or Buffalo, I don't see why someone coming from Utica or Albany would go that way.
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TonyTrafficLight

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1168 on: March 10, 2022, 09:43:57 AM »


While exit 39 is naturally the exit for the Fair if coming from Rochester or Buffalo, I don't see why someone coming from Utica or Albany would go that way.

I've never taken Exit 39 for the State Fair. 34A to Rt 690 is how i've always gone coming from Rome and Exit 32 or 33.
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dzheng35

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1169 on: March 17, 2022, 01:20:48 PM »

This leads me to wonder how will people get to the mall or the airport after the project finishes within a decade if it's no longer going to be near the interstate after its rerouting. Because for the past years before the COVID craziness, my family has been going to the mall every Black Friday and there were times when we would go to the Syracuse Airport to pick up or drop somebody.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 01:24:59 PM by dzheng35 »
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1170 on: March 17, 2022, 08:29:02 PM »

This leads me to wonder how will people get to the mall or the airport after the project finishes within a decade if it's no longer going to be near the interstate after its rerouting. Because for the past years before the COVID craziness, my family has been going to the mall every Black Friday and there were times when we would go to the Syracuse Airport to pick up or drop somebody.
If coming from the south, either take the "community grid" through downtown, or take present-day I-481 to I-690. Since the latter is 9 minutes or so longer now, I would imagine the "community grid" will still be the quickest after completion.
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1171 on: March 26, 2022, 04:12:57 PM »

Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?
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seicer

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1172 on: March 26, 2022, 06:29:16 PM »

The topography around Cumberland is completely different than Syracuse. Whereas Syracuse had ample room for a bypass with plenty of spaced-out interchanges, Cumberland is surrounded by linear mountains that creep up over 1,700 feet. There aren't really any good crossings over the mountains, and you'd probably have to run I-68 south of the city over the N. Branch Potomac River, across Short Gap, and then around Cresaptown which would involve substantial property takings, a route by the airport's runways, and still involve steep grades.

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1173 on: March 27, 2022, 02:11:16 PM »

Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?

Syracuse has an already-existing I-481 bypass that can take over I-81. Hagerstownís Cumberlandís suburbs have no such thing, nor as has been noted, the topography to allow one to be built at a reasonable cost and without unreasonable disruption to the area.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 05:21:57 PM by davewiecking »
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1174 on: March 27, 2022, 02:25:23 PM »

Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?

Syracuse has an already-existing I-481 bypass that can take over I-81. Hagerstownís suburbs have no such thing, nor as has been noted, the topography to allow one to be built at a reasonable cost and without unreasonable disruption to the area.
Hagerstown?
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