Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[kalvado]

They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?

The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.

Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...

[Beltway]

The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.

Rebuild it just like many other older freeway bridges have been rebuilt.  The substructure looks adequate, so the superstructure (beams and roadway deck) can either be replaced or redecked.  If there is room then widen the substructure so that it can support a wider roadway deck with full shoulders.  If there is room then realign roadways and ramps as needed.  If there is not room for widening and/or realignment of the viaduct then don't do that, just replace the substructure or the roadway deck.

This is not complicated; some of the locals are making it complicated.

[froggie]

The substructure looks adequate

I can tell you from experience that it's not.

And the FHWA won't sign off on "just replace the substructure" without substantial improvements to the geometry.  So it really is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and not just because of "the locals"...

[Beltway]

The substructure looks adequate

I can tell you from experience that it's not.
And the FHWA won't sign off on "just replace the substructure" without substantial improvements to the geometry.  So it really is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and not just because of "the locals"...

Then replace or rehab the substructure.  The bridge was built in an Interstate highway project.  The FHWA is not going to force them to widen it and/or realign it if there would be infeasible right-of-way impacts.

The realignment/expansion of the highway would obviously have huge right-of-way impacts --
http://cdn.thinglink.me/api/image/660135028889485313/640/10/scaletowidth


The I-95 James River Bridge in Richmond was rebuilt 1999-2002, was originally opened in 1958.  Major rehab to the substructure, replacement of most of the superstructure and all of the roadway deck.  The FHWA did not force them to widen it to provide full shoulders, which would have been rather expensive.  So there are precedents for rebuilding Interstate highway bridges even when the DOT keeps certain features from the original design that are obsolete today.  (I would like to see full shoulders there, but it would have greatly increased the costs).

[PHLBOS]

They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?

The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.

Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...

FWIW, here's the Wiki account with an excerpt (below) regarding the Embarcadero (bold emphasis added):

In the 1980s, opposition to the Embarcadero Freeway resurfaced in proposals to tear it down. On November 5, 1985, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to tear down the Embarcadero Freeway.   The proposal was put to the voters in 1987 and soundly defeated, opposed in particular by influential Chinatown community organizer Rose Pak, who feared that Chinatown would suffer catastrophic consequences if it would lose this fast crosstown connection.  The October 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake significantly damaged the structure, causing it to be closed to traffic. Caltrans planned to retrofit and retain the double-decker freeway. Various groups in and outside the City supported the Caltrans plan, but there was a significant opinion within the City in favor of removing the freeway structure. Then-Mayor Art Agnos proposed demolishing the freeway in favor of a boulevard with an underpass at the Ferry Building to allow for a large plaza.

Opposition to demolishing the freeway mounted again, with over 20,000 signatures gathered to again create a ballot measure.   Prior to the earthquake, the Embarcadero Freeway carried approximately 70,000 vehicles daily in the vicinity of the Ferry Building. Another 40,000 vehicles per day used associated ramps at Main and Beale streets. The strongest opposition came from Chinatown and other neighborhoods north of downtown.  Merchants in Chinatown had suffered a dramatic decline in business in the months immediately following the earthquake and feared that if the freeway was not reopened they would not recover.

Agnos continued to negotiate with federal and state officials to win enough funding to make the demolition practical, and the opposition relented. Agnos argued that the city would squander "the opportunity of a lifetime" if it allowed the freeway to remain.  After months of debate, the Board of Supervisors narrowly voted in favor of demolition by a 6—5 margin.  Demolition began on February 27, 1991. That year, Agnos was defeated for re-election as Chinatown switched its support away from him.

Upshoot to the above IMHO:

1.  Had the 1989 earthquake not happened, the Freeway might be still standing & in use.

2.  Support for the keeping the freeway came from locals (i.e. voters) as well as commuters (i.e. outsiders).

3.  The Mayor who supported the freeway removal was shortly voted out of office.

[kalvado]

They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?

The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.

Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...

FWIW, here's the Wiki account with an excerpt (below) regarding the Embarcadero (bold emphasis added):

In the 1980s, opposition to the Embarcadero Freeway resurfaced in proposals to tear it down. On November 5, 1985, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to tear down the Embarcadero Freeway.   The proposal was put to the voters in 1987 and soundly defeated, opposed in particular by influential Chinatown community organizer Rose Pak, who feared that Chinatown would suffer catastrophic consequences if it would lose this fast crosstown connection.  The October 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake significantly damaged the structure, causing it to be closed to traffic. Caltrans planned to retrofit and retain the double-decker freeway. Various groups in and outside the City supported the Caltrans plan, but there was a significant opinion within the City in favor of removing the freeway structure. Then-Mayor Art Agnos proposed demolishing the freeway in favor of a boulevard with an underpass at the Ferry Building to allow for a large plaza.

Opposition to demolishing the freeway mounted again, with over 20,000 signatures gathered to again create a ballot measure.   Prior to the earthquake, the Embarcadero Freeway carried approximately 70,000 vehicles daily in the vicinity of the Ferry Building. Another 40,000 vehicles per day used associated ramps at Main and Beale streets. The strongest opposition came from Chinatown and other neighborhoods north of downtown.  Merchants in Chinatown had suffered a dramatic decline in business in the months immediately following the earthquake and feared that if the freeway was not reopened they would not recover.

Agnos continued to negotiate with federal and state officials to win enough funding to make the demolition practical, and the opposition relented. Agnos argued that the city would squander "the opportunity of a lifetime" if it allowed the freeway to remain.  After months of debate, the Board of Supervisors narrowly voted in favor of demolition by a 6—5 margin.  Demolition began on February 27, 1991. That year, Agnos was defeated for re-election as Chinatown switched its support away from him.

Upshoot to the above IMHO:

1.  Had the 1989 earthquake not happened, the Freeway might be still standing & in use.

2.  Support for the keeping the freeway came from locals (i.e. voters) as well as commuters (i.e. outsiders).

3.  The Mayor who supported the freeway removal was shortly voted out of office.

Each situation is somewhat unique... I-81 (and - somewhat similar - I-787 next door) are a bit different, as there is more or less clear division of local vs commuter. And while 787 removal is just a pipe dream (riverfront? How about learning how to deal with your shit first, Albany? literally), 81 is a possibly winning case. If there is much to win for Syracuse anyway...

[Rothman]

I really doubt removing I-81 is a win.  I just imagine a crowded boulevard and angry long-distance drivers.

[kalvado]

I really doubt removing I-81 is a win.  I just imagine a crowded boulevard and angry long-distance drivers.

A win as in win of inner city residents' current opinion. Long term.... My impression is that there are only some bad solutions on the table. Some are even worse than others, but no good one. Combined with upstate not having a prime time in general....

[froggie]

and angry long-distance drivers.

One of them in this thread.  Though they are clearly in the minority here.  And it's not like there aren't alternatives for that long-distance travel, despite the claims that it's "too long of a detour".

Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...

[Rothman]

Although funding is a significant issue, I believe it isn't as problematic as it could be.  Unlike other states, NYSDOT has stayed well under its advance construction threshold and therefore I bet it will use that room to help fund I-81.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

Although funding is a significant issue, I believe it isn't as problematic as it could be.  Unlike other states, NYSDOT has stayed well under its advance construction threshold and therefore I bet it will use that room to help fund I-81.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Depending on what is considered "problematic". Tunnel will be an ideal solution - and wouldn't cost much more than the Big Dig...

[Rothman]

Tunnel will not be happening.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

Tunnel will not be happening.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Of course. Until they find some gold in the ground to be mined during construction....

[Beltway]

Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...

The last 10 to 15 years we have entered a new era in the Interstate highway system, namely where numbers of major Interstate bridges are reaching 40 to 50 years old or more, and  are simply wearing out and need major reconstruction or replacement.  Saying that "it's cheaper" to let them deteriorate and eventually close is no solution, this is something that state and federal funding needs to address and solve.

[kalvado]

Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...

The last 10 to 15 years we have entered a new era in the Interstate highway system, namely where numbers of major Interstate bridges are reaching 40 to 50 years old or more, and  are simply wearing out and need major reconstruction or replacement.  Saying that "it's cheaper" to let them deteriorate and eventually close is no solution, this is something that state and federal funding needs to address and solve.

NYSDOT recently invested quite a bit of money into rehabilitation of I-787, which is of similar era and design as I-81
Problem of I-81 is that there is no (relatively)cheap and (comparatively)simple option of fixing existing structure. There has to be a significantly different replacement, and given high traffic road in dense city - anything you can think of is a pain. Discussion is primarily focused on the question if cutting off a leg is better than cutting off a hand. Or maybe let the patient die to avoid making a choice? 

[Rothman]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

[kalvado]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

Problem of I-81 is that there is no (relatively)cheap and (comparatively)simple option of fixing existing structure.

[Beltway]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

[PHLBOS]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

To add: one of the new spans is already (temporarily serving both directions) in use & the old bridge is now closed for removal/demolition.

[Beltway]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

To add: one of the new spans is already (temporarily serving both directions) in use & the old bridge is now closed for removal/demolition.

Indeed, I was aware of the project stage.

[Alps]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

Can't toll I-81.

[seicer]

I travel it on a very routine basis and it would not inconvenience me. FWIW.

[Michael]

It's pretty common to see garbage trucks going from NYC to the Seneca Meadows landfill in Seneca Falls cut the corner of Syracuse by going through Auburn.  They travel along US 20 when it splits from NY 5.  There's a ban for trucks over 10 feet wide on NY 41 and NY 41A, so I'm not sure how they get between US 20 and I-81.

At one point, there was talk of banning all trucks on NY 41 and NY 41A, but I couldn't find anything online about it.  I did come across a list of truck restrictions in the Finger Lakes on the NYSDOT website.  I don't know if garbage trucks are restricted under a Special Hauling or Divisible Load permit.

On a side note, in 2015, Seneca Meadows proposed building a rail spur, which would have cut down a lot of the truck traffic between the south and west.  Seneca Meadows withdrew the proposal last year after local opposition.  I thought of building a rail spur years ago since the landfill is so close to the railroad, and I was surprised it took as long as it did for it to be proposed.

[Beltway]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

Can't toll I-81.

Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.

[Alps]

For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes.

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.

Can't toll I-81.

Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.

But you're comparing apples and oranges. Tap is more money, but supported by toll revenue.