Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[kalvado]

Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976, and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.

I am not sure what I am supposed to see.. Would the city be better off without a highway? Maybe yes-  or maybe not. But it is not relevant to what is going on in 2019. Whatever city's problems are, removing highway is not going to solve them. Creating new problems by whatever new approach is choosen? Good question.
We have a certain situation at hand, and there is a need for a single major decision. I am not sure saving old buildings is a good objective for such projects - it may be cheaper to build anew. But - whatever comes out of this, 50 years from now,  same questions we are asking today are going to be asked again: why was it done in such a way? Which problems those decision created? WHo is to blame?
Unfortunately my crystal ball is out of comission, so I have no answers. But I do see faults in ongoing process, no crystal ball required.

[Alps]

Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976, and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.

Racist dog whistles abound.

[kalvado]

Racist dog whistles abound.

It is easy to pull rasist card - especially when there is no substance behind that. My pet peeve is "historic preservation" - when there is money for bronze plaque, but no money for upkeep, and no takers for all the limitations imposed.
Lets take a close look at what is to be the pain here.
Exhibit 1:

160+ years eyesore. Definitely worth saving, right? This seems to be the #1 in lists of affected places. Owner is a white man, BTW.
There are a few more. Like really gorgeous building used for sex offenders housing (OK, I guess nobody else wants to live facing active interstate) - and I wonder what the building condition is.
Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.

[Alps]

Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.

The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.

[kalvado]

Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.

The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.

Well, looks like its a good idea to expand the answer even further.
I think that whatever comes out of this project will be a strong statement about the future of the region, and possibly define that future. A very big statement for 2 miles of a highway, huh?
Basically, Syracuse area is not doing well to say the least. Rust belt, enough said. There are some interesting companies - Crucible, Inficon (just looked up - they now list Switzerland as their headquarters locations.. yikes...), but manufacturing companies are not a powerhouse it used to be.
City population is shrinking, the metropolitan statistical area is shrinking (fastest shrink among top 100 MSAs), the state is shrinking.
Two prominent leaders on opposite ends of political spectrum tell people to leave the area (although in a slightly different narrative: Trump says "my people should leave for greener pastures", gov. Cuomo II says "your people should leave somewhere")
So that is a grim context of the project which costs about $5k per MSA resident.
My impression is that all the crap about "reconnecting the city" and "preserving the history" doesn't even touch the key problem: area needs jobs, badly. Some vision of future - other than "last person to leave please turn lights off". And there is no understanding of where to go.
There is a significant healthcare sector in the city, is it enough? I don't know. Large centers - Boston, NYC, Toronto - are far away. Canal and lake shipping, which were a big booster, are not there. No big company in their right mind would go to Syracuse. Local agriculture can do only that much. Finger lakes tourism (including wine trails) is only that big, as well as Cornell outreach. Salt mining and NYC landfill don't sound as a solution.
Cutting transportation capacity to whatever is in the center, IMHO, seals city decay as a done fact for today and into the future. Cutting the road through the city center doesn't do anything to help while spending shitloads of money. So I am totally glad my opinion doesn't count here as all choices are depressing. If there is any hope highway would help, 30-40 properties in the city center may be a tiny price to pay... and that is a big "if"

[Duke87]

Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.

The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.

I could be reading this wrong but the reference to "slum clearance" by NoGoodNamesAvailable seemed to be sarcastic, i.e. berating that line of thinking.

[vdeane]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

[kalvado]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

[sparker]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Gee whiz -- I wonder what today is?  4/1?  I'm stumped! 

[qguy]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Having your cat and eating it too.

[Verlanka]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.

[kalvado]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.

Too bad that there is a grain of truth in it: there is no clear future for the project, and my bet is on the old one collapsing before new construction starts.

[vdeane]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.

Yeah, as far as I know, nobody has actually figured out how to put such a large object into a state of superposition, much less how to let people walk/drive through it without collapsing the wave function.

Had I decided to do a more elaborate version (which would have included writing a fake news article or press release), there would have been mention of it complicating NY's annual data submittal to FHWA due to the inability to take measurements.

[The Ghostbuster]

A rebuilt viaduct and a community grid? That might work. How long until such is constructed? 10 years? 20? 30? Sometime in the 22nd century? By then, it will probably have crumbled to dust.

[vdeane]

A rebuilt viaduct and a community grid? That might work. How long until such is constructed? 10 years? 20? 30? Sometime in the 22nd century? By then, it will probably have crumbled to dust.

The joke was based on the fact that it is impossible for the two to co-exist in reality.  Note that "community grid" is a euphemism for "boulevard".

(personal opinion)

[qguy]

Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.

THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.

Thanks for spelling that out. Otherwise none of us would've known. 

[Mergingtraffic]

"Community Grid" option chosen as preferred alternative. The bike/ped movements are gathering in strength.  I-81 going away in downtown and expect to see other cities use Syracuse as an example of "hey if they can do it so can we."

https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/library

Read the reader comments on any story on Syracuse.com and most people are against it.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/i-81-replacement-community-grid-would-displace-parking-lots-three-businesses-but-no-homes.html

[kevinb1994]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/exclusive-new-york-selects-community-grid-alternative-for-i-81.html?outputType=amp

Here's a news-worthy update from the Syracuse.com website. Obviously the comments are all over the place on this, to no one's surprise.

[Michael]

Mergingtraffic, you beat me!  I was proofreading my post.

NewsChannel9: NYS DOT report favors 'Community Grid' for I-81 replacement

I had a feeling this would be the preferred alternative.  I've mentioned before that I think it's stupid to send traffic over to I-481.  The streets in downtown can get pretty busy at times, so I think that even with improvements, it will end up being congested.

As for the historic buildings, I wonder if it's possible to move them to this area since it's pretty close and there's nothing there.  Once the old bridge is taken down, it would be relatively easy to move them a few blocks.

On a side note, I wonder how many people realize that this project involves most of I-81 through Syracuse, and parts of I-690 and West Street.  People keep focusing on the viaduct, but on I-81, the project starts at the southern city line, and ends just before the bridge by Destiny USA.  The northern city line is at the end of that bridge, so with the exception of the bridge, it's literally the entire length of I-81 in Syracuse.  On I-690, the project will be between West Street and the eastern end of the I-81 interchange.  Technically, the recent Beach/Teall viaduct project was considered part of the I-81 project.  On West Street, the project involves the interchange with Genesee St/NY 5.  This is basically the original downtown construction from the late 1950s all over again.  That's a whole lot more than a single viaduct!

EDIT: I wonder what would happen if the viaduct was closed for a week as an experiment.

[kalvado]

OK, wake me up when last legal process ends  - or when another review is ordered

[webny99]

A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.

[cl94]

By the time shovels hit the ground, the Syracuse metro will be 10% smaller than it is right now, which is quite a bit smaller than it was at the 2010 census. Combine this with the lack of jobs downtown and the long court fight we're looking at and a removal may result in minimal traffic increases once the thing actually closes (IF it closes).

[Alps]

EDIT: I wonder what would happen if the viaduct was closed for a week as an experiment.

Keep in mind the future includes a surface grid. Closing the viaduct without that would be much more chaotic and jammed.

[Duke87]

A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.

It's not a question of pleasing a few communities. This is what the powers that be at the state level want because it fits their grand visions of urban renewal. Note how Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and NYC all have at least one freeway or expressway downgrade or removal project completed or in progress - it was inevitable that Syracuse was going to join the club.

Realize as well that with the way government works in New York, this decision was made behind closed doors years ago. They've just waited until now when there isn't an upcoming election and the idea has had a chance to gain some traction to publicly acknowledge it.

[KEVIN_224]

New York City is the downgrade of I-895/Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. Which project are you referring to for Albany?