Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Beltway]

"Community Grid" option chosen as preferred alternative. The bike/ped movements are gathering in strength.  I-81 going away in downtown and expect to see other cities use Syracuse as an example of "hey if they can do it so can we."

This makes me feel like puking. 

I better keep the trash can handy...

[vdeane]

As expected, though (personally) not my preferred alternative.  Syracuse already didn't have a great freeway system, and this will only make that worse.  The western suburbs will have no good all-freeway route to get to the south.  If only the western bypass had been built.

A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.

Cuomo's been pretty anti-freeway as of late.  Have you seen how he's been with the Scajaquada and the Buffalo Skyway?  It's also the cheapest alternative, and it's not like NYSDOT is rolling in cash right now.  I wouldn't be surprised if the constant tunnel re-evaluations were just to push the decision to a more politically convenient time.

New York City is the downgrade of I-895/Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. Which project are you referring to for Albany?

Probably the Albany Skyway (removing the US 9 north ramp at I-787 and turning it into a park similar to NYC's high line), though there is desire among some advocates for a complete removal of I-787.

[Plutonic Panda]

I really hope this is reconsidered.

[kalvado]

As expected, though (personally) not my preferred alternative. 

Which one you prefer? I see only very bad and even worse options

Probably the Albany Skyway (removing the US 9 north ramp at I-787 and turning it into a park similar to NYC's high line), though there is desire among some advocates for a complete removal of I-787.

Maybe NY787 in Cohoes? It is in full swing...

[Revive 755]

It looks like the boulevard replacing the viaduct would lack dedicated left turn lanes at a lot of intersections and instead used shared thru-left turn lanes - good way to get rear end crashes and increase congestion.  Where there are left turn lanes, they appear to have a very negative offset - good way to get the left turning vehicle hit by an opposing through vehicle.  Yet this is called "safe and efficient"?

[machias]

Today's announcement was one of the stupidest things I've read about in New York in years. Glad I moved out. Now, if I could just figure out how to change my username here on this board doohickey.

[machias]

On the bright side, Interstate 81 is going to get all new mileage based exits!

[Anthony_JK]

John Norquist gets his dream of an Interstate removal finally. And Syracuse will be much the worst for it.

[webny99]

It's not a question of pleasing a few communities. This is what the powers that be at the state level want because it fits their grand visions of urban renewal. Note how Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and NYC all have at least one freeway or expressway downgrade or removal project completed or in progress - it was inevitable that Syracuse was going to join the club.

My whole point is that I-81 is not even remotely comparable to the Inner Loop or anything else that has been torn down. You can't say with a straight face that anyone in Syracuse or Buffalo - or even the Rochester suburbs! - actually cared about the removal of the Inner Loop. I-81, on the other hand, serves a significant statewide purpose and carries a lot of long distance traffic, and people from Rochester, Binghamton, Watertown, actually do care about the inconvenience and increased travel times they would face if the viaduct was torn down.

In short, when a project affects the general motoring public, including a high number people from outside the area, the number of interested parties multiplies, and my guess is that in this case none of those additional parties are in favor of removal. So to ignore the interests of the rest of the state as if the project only affects a few neighborhoods, i.e. treating it like the Inner Loop project, is incredibly foolish and short sighted, and I hope that will be reflected in the feedback received by the state.

[froggie]

To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.

That said, I do think there are some changes that need to be made to the "community grid" alternative to make it more feasible.  Revive mentioned the lack of left turn lanes on the envisioned Arnold St and I agree.  I also agree with val on some sort of southwestern bypass arterial although I don't think it necessarily needs to be controlled-access.  And there should be a consistent 6 lanes from 690 to the Thruway along 481 instead of the proposed auxiliary lanes that don't go through the Kirkville Rd interchange.

[kalvado]

To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.

I still wonder where these numbers came from. I can see 20k traffic south of Elmira, well south of Syracuse to filter out Ithaca/Cornell to Syracuse (I guess mostly mall and airport, north of proposed change); and 15k south of Watertown, going down to 6k at the border.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

[hotdogPi]

I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I know that roadgeeks often complain about minor things like numbering issues. However, this is the actual removal of a through route.

[kalvado]

I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

As far as I understand, this is indeed a very significant change. This is a highway with 100k/day traffic feeding city center from southern suburbs. Dissipating that traffic will be difficult, bypass road which is proposed to be used as new 81 is already very buzy
With that, there is really no good option here which avoids pissing off large group of people.
Not very modest of me, but look at my reply #280 on page 12 of this thread. I think I am realistically pessimistic.

[cl94]

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I don't think it's going to be as crazy as roadgeeks think if a couple of minor changes are made to the proposal. Specifically, a continuous 6 lanes along current I-481 from the south end to the Thruway and removal of tolls along the Thruway within the Syracuse metro to encourage traffic between the south and west to avoid 690. Neither of these would be particularly hard to accomplish, especially with the impending AET conversion. Like it or not, Syracuse is hemorrhaging population like a natural disaster happened. In fact, the only medium-large city that has lost population faster since the 2000 census is New Orleans (for obvious reasons). Frankly, it does not NEED a freeway system designed for almost a million people as was originally proposed for the region.

Regardless, we're looking at several years before shovels even hit the ground and it's very possible that state leadership will change before that point. This is only a draft EIS and there are going to be years of court battles over this. The rich people in the suburbs and the rich developer who owns the mall formerly known as Carousel Center are vehemently opposed to removal/rerouting. The trucking lobby won't like this, either. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if it's another 10+ years before I-81 is formally rerouted, IF it ever happens. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the viaduct falling down before they have a chance to complete the reroute/reconstruction.

[kalvado]

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the viaduct falling down before they have a chance to complete the reroute/reconstruction.

Too bad I cannot take your bet as I also think so.

[vdeane]

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I don't think it's going to be as crazy as roadgeeks think if a couple of minor changes are made to the proposal. Specifically, a continuous 6 lanes along current I-481 from the south end to the Thruway and removal of tolls along the Thruway within the Syracuse metro to encourage traffic between the south and west to avoid 690. Neither of these would be particularly hard to accomplish, especially with the impending AET conversion. Like it or not, Syracuse is hemorrhaging population like a natural disaster happened. In fact, the only medium-large city that has lost population faster since the 2000 census is New Orleans (for obvious reasons). Frankly, it does not NEED a freeway system designed for almost a million people as was originally proposed for the region.

That would help a LOT, though unfortunately the only proposal I've seen is for limited aux lanes around exit 5.  Possibly also widen the Thruway in the area too.

Honestly, if the western bypass had been built, I wouldn't care as much.  I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.  Syracuse isn't very good with that as it is - Liverpool requires taking the Thruway for at least some trips, the areas to the north aren't really freeway accessible, and with I-81 gone, Camillus, Fairmount, and Baldwinsville will be unable to head to Binghamton and points south without either taking a surface boulevard or going way out of their way to current I-481.

There's also the precedent.  As far as I know, this would be the first instance of a through freeway being removed in the country.  Everything else has been a spur.  It will only embolden the activists further, and I don't seem them stopping until every city is like Winnipeg (which has no freeways of any kind).

[seicer]

And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.

[oscar]

And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.

Plus a thoroughly painful west-east route (TCH 1) into and through the central city, though there is a good freeway bypass to the south of the city (TCH 100) and an expressway bypass to the north (MB 101) for through travelers. (Which would not include people from elsewhere in the province, or outside the province, who need to do in-person business with government offices in downtown Winnipeg.) Under the proposal as it now stands, Syracuse would have just one bypass to replace the removed segment of I-81.

[webny99]

To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.

Maybe, but through and long distance traffic on other major freeway removals to date has been, for the most part, zero. So 6,000 per day is a big deal in that context. That's almost 2.2 million vehicles per year, and I'd guess at least 220,000 individual vehicles, i.e. people on non-recurring trips as opposed to the same cars every day.

[webny99]

I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.

Thanks to growing up in Rochester, no doubt. 

There's also the precedent.  As far as I know, this would be the first instance of a through freeway being removed in the country.  Everything else has been a spur.  It will only embolden the activists further, and I don't seem them stopping until every city is like Winnipeg (which has no freeways of any kind).

Parts of the TCH 100 / Perimeter Hwy are now full freeway, but said segments are far removed from the city center, which is a nightmare. And yeah, if every city was like Winnipeg, the world would be a terrible place, for a multitude of reasons which I won't go into at this time.   

[webny99]

And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.

Please tell me this is sarcasm. Of any large city I've been to, Winnipeg is among the worst to navigate, especially at rush hour. Every single through route is crowded, laden with stoplights and massive inefficient intersections, and basically just a slow-motion nauseating nightmare (to put it bluntly!!  )

[The Ghostbuster]

Does anyone think the people of Syracuse might unite to prevent the Community Grid from being constructed? Or, as I suspect, city residents will deliver a collective "meh" to this project, and the Community Grid will be constructed as proposed? I know this wasn't a final decision, but it seems set in stone to me.

[kalvado]

Does anyone think the people of Syracuse might unite to prevent the Community Grid from being constructed? Or, as I suspect, city residents will deliver a collective "meh" to this project, and the Community Grid will be constructed as proposed? I know this wasn't a final decision, but it seems set in stone to me.

Guess what? like many older areas, Syracuse had a period of suburb flee, so city itself is on a poor side of spectrum, while wealth is in the suburbia.
And the highway is used a lot to drive between suburban home and city job. So the city doesn't benefit from highway that much (or at least people think so).
Accordingly, there is a lot of "it's our city, we got to decide! Move in or get lost!" - "but it is everyone's (read: mostly out of the city) money, we have something to say!"
Which, of course, doesn't make the situation any easier to resolve.

[vdeane]

Found an article that includes actual details about what will be built: https://expo.syracuse.com/news/g66l-2019/04/8c50a10c522772/how-would-community-grid-work-check-out-maps-from-interstate-81-report.html

Looks like the upgrades to I-481 got SLIGHTLY more extensive, with aux lanes in both directions between I-690 and exit 5.  Still no widened lanes through exit 5 or SB between 6 and 5, unfortunately (I'd also add in aux lanes between 6 and 7, both directions).

Very disappointed to see that the full interchange between I-690 and the remainder of I-81 was removed.  The lack of access between Camillus/Fairmount and the north is a major flaw in Syracuse's freeway system, which is now not being fixed.

(personal opinion)

I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.

Thanks to growing up in Rochester, no doubt. 

And in an inner suburb just a mile from I-590, too.  The most major cancelled corridor is one I never need to use (but would be a glaring flaw for anyone trying to get between Greece and Webster).  Where I live in the Capital District is also well situated for using freeways to get around, although we do have more freeway inaccessible areas than Rochester.