Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[cl94]

An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?  That in itself would serve either as further incentive to continue down the selected path of urban revamping or, alternately, indicate that the regional population, rather than abandoning the region in a wholesale fashion, has simply rearranged itself around the periphery as with so many other urban areas.

The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.

[webny99]

An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?

The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.

Massive? I really have a tough time believing that the Syracuse region is losing population at any significant rate, much less the rate of Detroit in the 1970s. I know at least some of the suburbs are still growing, albeit slowly. I hope to get time tomorrow to compile some actual data for both the city and the metro area.

[Rothman]

Meh.  Syracuse is a hurting city.  It's been losing people over the decades.

[kalvado]

An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?

The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.

Massive? I really have a tough time believing that the Syracuse region is losing population at any significant rate, much less the rate of Detroit in the 1970s. I know at least some of the suburbs are still growing, albeit slowly. I hope to get time tomorrow to compile some actual data for both the city and the metro area.

To make your life a bit easier:
https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/popest.html

[seicer]

Down but not out: https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/unemployment-hits-18-year-low-in-syracuse-area.html

Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector. The university and hospital system are the biggest drivers for the economy today - and that's nothing to sneeze at. High paying, gainful employment.

[Rothman]

Heh.  They'll take any positive spin they can get.

[RobbieL2415]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

[kalvado]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level

[RobbieL2415]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level

Rochester's water table isn't too good either.

[webny99]

Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0

[webny99]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

I-190 is above grade for many miles through Buffalo, but I haven't heard urbanists there crying for removal. Probably because it is not yet in enough of a state of disrepair for the state to be discussing replacement options.

[Rothman]

Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0

Pfft.  Your beliefs are quite unique.  Rochester had Kodak go kaput and Syracuse has just had a slow bleed over the decades.  Both economically hurting cities are in the Rust Belt with Buffalo.

[seicer]

Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0

Albany is essentially the start of the "rust belt" that extends westward into the Midwest, ending at Chicago. It's more helpful to look at a map of manufacturing job losses from the mid-1950s to today, which essentially pins the "rust belt" between Albany and Gary, Indiana, including Detroit and Eastern Michigan, southwest Pennsylvania, northeast Kentucky/southern Ohio/western West Virginia, and southwest Ohio.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2017/10/study_rust_belt_cities_like_syracuse_need_state_help_to_avoid_insolvency.html

[kalvado]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level

Rochester's water table isn't too good either.

Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester

[Rothman]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level

Rochester's water table isn't too good either.

Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester

How do you figure that?

[kalvado]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level

Rochester's water table isn't too good either.

Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester

How do you figure that?

Lake surface in Rochester is marked 74.8 - I assume average number, since lake fluctuate; and 100 contour goes pretty much parallel to the lake shore. I am not really familiar with Rochester, but as a single point: 390/490  seems to be above 150 mark

Syracuse has Onondago lake at 111  mark according to the map, and 150 contour seems to the east of I-81, hard to say with city grid overlayed.

Those are in meters, as far as I can tell.
Water table should be at least not below the lake level..

[vdeane]

^^^^^^^^
If indeed the Syracuse population continues to decrease, urbanists may be inclined to preside (or attempt to do so) over a city "transfiguration" into a format built around the university and geared toward the regional service sector, since manufacturing has essentially left the area.  If so, there's a distinct possibililty that attention may be turned toward I-690 as the singular feature of the "old way of doing things" remaining in the city core; placing that facility on the chopping block (wholly or partially) might be on the agenda within a decade or two.

I wouldn't be surprised.  I've already read at least one article where someone mentioned wanting to do that.  At least I-690 will be in much better shape.  Still, the current redecking project might not save the Buffalo Skyway, so we can't count anything out.

[Beltway]

Next, they'll want to demolish I-95 through Downtown Richmond, construct a community grid, and route I-95 on I-295 (ironically, that was the original plan when I-295 was built in the 80s). I-95 divides our neighborhoods, tear it down! (even though most of it isn't elevated)

That was the interim plan, when justifying the I-295 extension to south of Petersburg in the late 1970s, an I-95 Bypass.  The Richmond bypass was I-295 in the late 1950s and every segment opened as I-295.  There was never any plan to move the I-64 designation out of the downtown, and the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike south of the downtown would have been renumbered in the late 1970s plan.

The I-95 James River Bridge was reconstructed 1999-2002 and all the I-95 RPT bridges north of there were reconstructed 2010-14.  It is no more going away than is I-264 in Portsmouth, Norfolk and VA Beach.

[webny99]

Pfft.  Your beliefs are quite unique.  Rochester had Kodak go kaput and Syracuse has just had a slow bleed over the decades.  Both economically hurting cities are in the Rust Belt with Buffalo.

For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.

I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.

Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

[hotdogPi]

A city doesn't have to be part of the Rust Belt to see decline in the last two decades – just look at Iowa.

[Beltway]

For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.
I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.
Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt

[Rothman]

For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.
I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.
Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt

Like I said, his opinion is unique.

[vdeane]

was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession

Also basically unaffected by the 2000s housing boom.  The economy is flatter than the rest of the country, which is great for stability, but in our growth-oriented society, the lack of the boom phases is viewed like kryptonite.

[sparker]

Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.

[GenExpwy]

If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

I-490 (east from downtown) uses a ditch that had already existed. It was built as the original route of the Erie Canal. After the canal was re-routed from downtown in 1918, it was used for the Rochester Subway. After the Subway went out of business in 1956, I-490 took over the grade-separated path.