Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Rothman]

Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.

Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets?

Although Rochester has some glimmers of hope, the fact of the matter is the upstate cities as a whole have pitiful growth, if any.

[kalvado]

Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.

Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets?

Although Rochester has some glimmers of hope, the fact of the matter is the upstate cities as a whole have pitiful growth, if any.

big and heavy chart showing some trends among states:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/US_state_historical_population_FRED_SMIL.svg
population wise, last census estimate NYS is now in red - despite NYC attracting domestic and international migration. only a few upstate counties - notably Saratoga-  show population growth, the rest of upstate is depopulating.
this is not about growth for the sake of growth, this is about people actively moving out.

[webny99]

Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt

All about context: Losing half of 5,000 mfg jobs doesn't make a city part of the Rust Belt, while losing half of 200,000 mfg jobs probably does.

Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets?

Certainly, we can agree that it has all -- or at least most -- of the characteristics of a Rust Belt city, as does Binghamton. As far as location, however, it is east (and arguably north) of most definitions of the Rust Belt.

[webny99]

big and heavy chart showing some trends among states:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/US_state_historical_population_FRED_SMIL.svg
population wise, last census estimate NYS is now in red - despite NYC attracting domestic and international migration. only a few upstate counties - notably Saratoga-  show population growth, the rest of upstate is depopulating.
this is not about growth for the sake of growth, this is about people actively moving out.

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.

[Beltway]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

[sparker]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

Within NY state, Buffalo is the leading "poster child" for urban population decrease over the last 7 decades; but the same phenomenon has, of course, affected Pittsburgh (down about 58%), Cleveland (losing about 63%), and other major Northeast and Great Lakes cities.  Baltimore would be in that group as well, but the presence of its port facilities as an employment center has managed to trim its losses to under 50% of its peak of over 900K back in 1950.  Besides the basic loss of manufacturing jobs, much of what remains has been subject to considerable automation -- particularly within the automotive industry, as well as such things as CNC machining and fabrication, which obviates the need for large numbers of workers setting up jigs and operating lathes and routers.   Despite any efforts to rebalance overseas trade and curtail offshore subcontracting, most of these jobs are simply not coming back; they're just not there any more. 

[webny99]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.

So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

[kalvado]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.

So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

[webny99]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).

[RobbieL2415]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).

I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.

[kevinb1994]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).

I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.

Not to mention a serious hospitality problem. I once stayed at the Howard Johnson (HoJo) for one night only with family and the place was run-down and had a bunch of flying insects in the elevator. Gross. Never again. Thankfully we ended up crossing the border into the Canadian side of Niagara Falls where we stayed at the Hilton Fallsview location and got moved into another room there for some reason that I do not recall (as I was young at the time).

[kalvado]

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said 

Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).

I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.

Not to mention a serious hospitality problem. I once stayed at the Howard Johnson (HoJo) for one night only with family and the place was run-down and had a bunch of flying insects in the elevator. Gross. Never again. Thankfully we ended up crossing the border into the Canadian side of Niagara Falls where we stayed at the Hilton Fallsview location and got moved into another room there for some reason that I do not recall (as I was young at the time).

There will be a whole new world of resurrection and community revival once Robert Moses parkway is gone! [ /sarcasm]

[seicer]

No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.

[kalvado]

No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.

Niagara Falls park will win big time if there is something resembling basic service. Reshaping park so that it serves 5000 locals better is a great idea, but don't cry out loud if it reduces revenue from millions of tourists while community looses jobs and people move out.

[Jim]

Sorry to continue this off-thread-topic diversion, but I have always been amazed that Niagara Falls has managed to be such a failure when it has the giant advantage of being home to a world-class tourist attraction.  I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

[webny99]

I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)

[kalvado]

I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)

You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

[Rothman]

I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)

You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

Hm.  Makes me wonder if they have more boardings from the American or Canadian side.  Still, I don't see why their maple leaf flag matters in the context that was mentioned?

I'm probably missing a joke here somewhere.

[seicer]

No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.

Niagara Falls park will win big time if there is something resembling basic service. Reshaping park so that it serves 5000 locals better is a great idea, but don't cry out loud if it reduces revenue from millions of tourists while community looses jobs and people move out.

Except your down-and-out posts are not backed by facts (2017 versus 2016). It had basically flat attendance but comparing it year-to-year is comparing apples-to-oranges as there are many variables that can lead to attendance changes; it must be looked at over a lengthy time period. Fact is, 9.4 million visited Niagara Falls State Park (excluding the countless other parks in the area). And the state has been expending $70 million on upgrades to the park itself, part of a $1 billion park system upgrade.

I bet you complained when they removed that awful parking lot in the front of Watkins Glen State Park last year when they overhauled the entrance.

[webny99]

You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

I do; it operates on both sides of the border, but that doesn't prevent it from being a highlight of the US side.

[kalvado]

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. [..]

You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

Hm.  Makes me wonder if they have more boardings from the American or Canadian side.  Still, I don't see why their maple leaf flag matters in the context that was mentioned?

I'm probably missing a joke here somewhere.

I just was pointing out that out of 4 highlights which supposinly make

NY side is almost better than the Ontario side

At least one is not only available on the other side, but is actually provided by the other side.

[Rothman]

Heh.  I still wonder if more people board it from the American side.

[kalvado]

Heh.  I still wonder if more people board it from the American side.

I just learned that Maid of the mist no longer runs from Ontario, only NY . Images I see are still with maple leaf flag, though.
Anyway, I see ridership of 2.2 million for Hornblower on Canada side and 1.7 million for MotM on US side. US ridership is quoted to be on the rise due to increased border security and lower fee NY parks charge (8% vs 22.5% in Canada)

[Rothman]

So, MotM is all NY.

[froggie]

^ If they're flying a Canadian flag, means they're registered in Canada.