Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Beltway]

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?

Is anyone talking about "simply replacing"?

It should be one of the alternatives evaluated in a comprehensive DEIS.

[kalvado]

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?

Is anyone talking about "simply replacing"?

It should be one of the alternatives evaluated in a comprehensive DEIS.

But it is not. It's not an opinion, it is a medical fact. The closest analyzed option is "do nothing", and it is not a viable one.

[The Ghostbuster]

What do the locals say about the preferred alternative? Are they happy with it? Or do they strongly oppose it?

[kalvado]

What do the locals say about the preferred alternative? Are they happy with it? Or do they strongly oppose it?

mentioned more than once upthread. There is a strong division between inner city, where elevated highway has little use and gets little love; and suburbs, where that highway is a part of daily commute. Part of the reason it takes so long that there is no way to keep everyone - or at least most people - happy.

[TonyTrafficLight]

NYSDOT must be imbibing on a particular powerful brand of Kool-Aid, that is laced with pot.

"The DEIS, which estimates the grid would cost between $1.9 billion and $2.2 billion"

Spending that much money for ... what? 

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?

I think replacing the viaducts was around $1.4 billion. Not sure if this has been shared here

http://www.savei81.org/

[Beltway]

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?

I think replacing the viaducts was around $1.4 billion. Not sure if this has been shared here

It's not gonna cost $1.4 billion to replace an 0.9-mile 6-lane bridge.

[Rothman]

We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter.

[Beltway]

We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter.

I would like to see the detailed construction cost estimate.

[sprjus4]

We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter.

I would like to see the detailed construction cost estimate.

Prices have gone up significantly over the past 10 years. A lot of the estimates you've shared on the forums may be applicable 10 or 20 years ago, but things are different now.

Still wondering how this community grid is going to cost billions though.

[froggie]

Because it involves much more than just tearing down the viaduct and building a few streets in its place:

- *Redoing both I-81/481 interchanges.
- *Improvements to I-481 between I-690 and the Thruway.
- Redoing the 690/West St interchange.
- *New interchange on 690 in the vicinity of Lodi St.
- Rebuilding and widening I-81 to 8 lanes from 690 north to NY 370.

The three starred items are unique to the Community Grid option.  The other two (West St and 81 north of 690) were common to both alternatives.

[vdeane]

Heck, the costs have gone up quite a bit during this process.  I remember when it was 1.8 billion for the viaduct and 1.3 billion for the community grid.  Now it's 1.9+ billion for the community grid and even more for the viaduct.  I think I remember one where the viaduct was around 1.4 billion - I think the boulevard would have cost a few hundred million in that one.

As for why it costs so much, not only does it demolish the viaduct/replace it with a boulevard and realign the I-481 interchanges, it widens a piece of I-481 (including these long bridges), does significant work on the freeway north of I-690 to Onondaga Lake Parkway (though I'm pretty sure a widening of the full section is unique to the viaduct), and does a total rebuild of I-690 in the area.

As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.

[Beltway]

As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.

But they don't -have- to do anything more than replace the 0.9 mile bridge.  It certainly won't meet Interstate standards if they close the bridge.  As for $1.3 billion for that, rather than $300 million or so, again I need to see a detailed estimate before I believe it.

[Rothman]

Not sure your last post makes sense.  They have to bring the facility up to standard or tear it down and build the grid.  Not sure why it matters that tearing it down won't meet interstate standards.

[hotdogPi]

Build it as an exact copy and call it Bypass 81 (which wouldn't need to be up to standards, like business routes). Mainline 81 moves to 481.

[RoadMaster09]

I'm a little skeptical that I-481 will need an enormous upgrade. Local traffic would still use the current I-81 route regardless of its standards since they would need to use it to get downtown. I-81 towards Watertown and towards Binghamton aren't particularly busy apart from local commuter traffic (AADT drops below 20,000 long before Watertown, and drops to about 20,000 at Cortland) so the through traffic isn't enormous.

Widening to 6 lanes (would likely be needed soon anyway - AADT about 40,000 on I-481 now) is probably the most that will be necessary and the median is plenty wide enough for the most part. Only a couple areas would require major work - the long rail overpasses would probably need the most work.

[vdeane]

Even if interstate standards are no longer in the picture, there's still NHS route standards and New York state standards for that type of facility.

Not sure your last post makes sense.  They have to bring the facility up to standard or tear it down and build the grid.  Not sure why it matters that tearing it down won't meet interstate standards.

I think what Belway's proposing is a project that would address only the viaduct, ie no improvements to the I-690 interchange or the freeway north of there.

[sprjus4]

As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.

It certainly won't meet Interstate standards if they close the bridge.

It wouldn't need to meet interstate standards. I-81 would be re-routed on I-481.

[sprjus4]

@Beltway

Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf

April 19, 2019

Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

Entire DEIS - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository

Detailed engineering drawings of either the community grid or viaduct - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/872291C81E7D0134E0530A6C894A0134

[Alps]

@Beltway

Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf

April 19, 2019

Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

Entire DEIS - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository

Detailed engineering drawings of either the community grid or viaduct - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/872291C81E7D0134E0530A6C894A0134

I don't know why you continue to indulge our resident semi-troll.

[Beltway]

@Beltway
Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf
April 19, 2019
Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

It says that Elevated Structures is $539 million, which is a lot more than just the 0.9-mile I-81 bridge which is the critical infrastructure that they are talking about removing.

What is the cost of replacing that bridge?  Alt. 1 - same width.  Alt. 2 - same number of lanes (6) will full right shoulders.  Alt.3 - if they don't want to build a wider bridge then build it with 4 lanes and full right shoulders.

While Alt. 3 would have capacity issues a 4-lane Interstate highway would be immensely better than losing that segment altogether, and it would meet current urban Interstate highway standards.

Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Yards Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.

[sprjus4]

@Beltway
Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf
April 19, 2019
Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

It says that Elevated Structures is $539 million, which is a lot more than just the 0.9-mile I-81 bridge which is the critical infrastructure that they are talking about removing.

What is the cost of replacing that bridge?  Alt. 1 - same width.  Alt. 2 - same number of lanes (6) will full right shoulders.  Alt.3 - if they don't want to build a wider bridge then build it with 4 lanes and full right shoulders.

While Alt. 3 would have capacity issues a 4-lane Interstate highway would be immensely better than losing that segment altogether.

Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Yards Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.

Look, you asked for detailed estimates, there's what I found.

I don't really know what else to say. Maybe contact the engineers?

[Alps]

Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.

[sparker]

Well, now that it seems the I-81/Syracuse teardown/"boulevardization" is a done deal, the promoters of this sort of thing have moved on to a new target: I-275 north of the I-4 interchange in Tampa.  The details were cited in last Friday's AASHTO DTU -- but the newspaper article used as reference has since been locked -- you'll have to fish out that DTU to get the synopsis.  Whether this one will fly absent a clearly aging and problematic structure is yet to be determined -- but these folks are pretty relentless, particularly when it comes to their "top dozen" list of urban freeways they would like to see removed -- and both Syracuse and this one were on that list.   

[Rothman]

Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.

I don't think he's asking.  He's just stating his opinion and insisting he's right, despite not having been directly involved with the project -- like the people who developed the estimates were.

[hotdogPi]

I actually agree with Beltway. Since NYSDOT doesn't have enough money for all the improvements, fixing just the viaduct and nothing else works well, and it is even cheaper than the community grid plan that was accepted. I-81 will be able to stay where it is, and no capacity is lost compared to what it is now.