Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[The Ghostbuster]

So the "community grid" is what will ultimately be constructed? That's depressing. I hope Syracuse doesn't live to regret it.

[Beltway]

Here's how to do it --

New photos of I-59/20 Bridge Construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/g66l-2019/06/b9a7e8569c9394/new-photos-of-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html

[The Ghostbuster]

This would be the way to do it, if the preferred alternative was to rebuild the Interstate 81 viaduct. Since the preferred alternative is the "community grid", perhaps this story would be more appropriate (not every aspect, just the freeway-to-boulevard conversion part):

The End Of The Central Freeway In Hayes Valley (in San Francisco)
https://hoodline.com/2015/08/the-end-of-the-central-freeway-in-hayes-valley

[Plutonic Panda]

The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.

[PHLBOS]

So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.

It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.

[sprjus4]

Here's how to do it --

New photos of I-59/20 Bridge Construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/g66l-2019/06/b9a7e8569c9394/new-photos-of-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html

The beauty is not only are they replacing the viaduct in Downtown, I-59 thru traffic also has I-459 as a bypass. Very comparable to I-295 around Richmond. Nice mostly 6-8 lane rural freeway that is pretty much a direct shot.

[kalvado]

The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.

Great solution - but not in Syracuse soil, as far as I understand.

[froggie]

So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.

It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.

Have you not see the volume of design changes that a typical U.S. project will undertake during the course of construction (let alone a large project)?  That's arguably a bigger reason for the massive cost overruns we see in the U.S. than the documentation/permitting issues you mention.

[Plutonic Panda]

So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.

It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.

Right and I understand what you and Froggie are saying. I am not suggesting we go to the extremes that China has regarding ED nor am I suggesting a complete disregard for the environment like we used to have in the early 20th century.

I do think we got too carried away with the public input(more specifically with the ridiculousness of locally preferred alternatives), environmental reviews, and not to mention seemingly partisan affect that is becoming more evident on infrastructure building(Dems being more partial to mass transit and repubs freeways). Certain projects that are of high priority and needed now should get some exemptions and passes to be constructed that would allow for reasonable time frames. 10+ years is arguably not that and 20+ is insanity. Projects like the Golden Gate Bridge were built in 4 years. I doubt she went through 10 years of planning.

Again I know costs for infrastructure in developed countries are always going to be higher with some more so and I'm fine with that but a community grids surface street costing almost 2 billion dollars is mind boggling. I don't even want to know what the estimated for the tunnel were.

There has got to be compromises made somewhere. If we're just going to accept the status quo of projects like a new Bay Area bridge and tube not happening for 20+ years when it was needed in the last decade, then there isn't much hope.

[Plutonic Panda]

The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.

Great solution - but not in Syracuse soil, as far as I understand.

They did study this, no? I have heard something about the soil there before. It is unstable?

[cl94]

Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.

[kalvado]

Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.

If  my memory serves me right, water table is linked to the lake, and fairly close to the surface. I am fairly sure I had a link to the elevations map somewhere in this thread.

[Rothman]

The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery.

[sprjus4]

The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery.

Barely any cheap, only a couple hundred million out of an already multi-billion dollar project. Not to mention, the benefits are far greater on regional traffic flow with the viaduct replacement whereas the "cheaper"  one will only choke the beltway further, and eventually call for a widening of its own which could easily ultimately exceed the cost of just replacing the viaduct.

Not to mention local traffic freeway movements are eliminated and will require surface street driving to navigate as opposed to existing freeway.

It's a RE/T project and they won this one it seems. New York's DOT is a joke for going along with it.

[Rothman]

A couple hundred million is not small change, even in NY for cash-strapped NYSDOT (compared to the systems' needs).  The cost of the project also includes some improvements to I-481, so it isn't like those billions are just spent on tearing the viaduct down and building a boulevard.

Oh, and stop trying to make "RE/T" happen.  It's not going to happen.

[webny99]

It seems to me that at the end of the day, cost is just another bullet point in favor of the grid; significant, but hardly central to the overall decision.

Seriously, if this was any other state, a grid option would have been laughed out of the park, and the entire conversation would be about replacement, not removal. Cost would never even have come up as a talking point. And why should it? This a major thru interstate that provides vital statewide, regional, and local connectivity!

[Rothman]

All I can say to that is that you're wrong.

[webny99]

Wrong about what; the first bit?

I think it's obvious as to what would have happened in other states vs. what's happening here. I-59 is just one example. No doubt there will be many more examples in years to come.

[cl94]

Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.

If  my memory serves me right, water table is linked to the lake, and fairly close to the surface. I am fairly sure I had a link to the elevations map somewhere in this thread.

The soil map for that area is maxed out for the water table ("more than 80 inches"). The lowest point of the viaduct is a good 25 feet above the lake surface elevation.

[Rothman]

Wrong about what; the first bit?

I think it's obvious as to what would have happened in other states vs. what's happening here. I-59 is just one example. No doubt there will be many more examples in years to come.

See my earlier post.  Syracuse has no pull.  No pull means the State won't send more money than it wants to.  Therefore, cost becomes the primary variable in the State's decision.

Birmingham is the biggest city in Alabama.  Of course they're getting the big bucks.  If I-81 went through New York City, it'd be a very different story.

(And before you point out the Sheridan, the City had a much stronger stance on it than any alternative for the viaduct had in Syracuse)

[Beltway]

The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.
Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery.

Barely any cheap, only a couple hundred million out of an already multi-billion dollar project. Not to mention, the benefits are far greater on regional traffic flow with the viaduct replacement whereas the "cheaper"  one will only choke the beltway further, and eventually call for a widening of its own which could easily ultimately exceed the cost of just replacing the viaduct.
Not to mention local traffic freeway movements are eliminated and will require surface street driving to navigate as opposed to existing freeway.
It's a RE/T project and they won this one it seems. New York's DOT is a joke for going along with it.

The "community grid" costs 91% of what the viaduct replacement project would cost.

Results in a huge reduction in capacity and severing of vital access links as opposed to a moderate increase in capacity and safety.

The anti-highway activist/obstructionist (AHA/O) groups are undoubtedly pleased.

[Rothman]

AHA/O may actually catch on.

[Alps]

AHA/O may actually catch on.

No more than RE/T will. Can we stick with NIMBY and BANANA plz?

[Plutonic Panda]

Pardon my ignorance but what is RE/T and AHA/O

[Verlanka]

Pardon my ignorance but what is RE/T and AHA/O

AHA/O = Anti-Highway Activist/Obstructionist. Not sure about RE/T, though.