Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[machias]

With the reconfigurations of I-690 as part of this project, I'm wondering if I-690/NY 690 will also get its interchanges renumbered according to the mileposts that were installed a few years ago. It'd be I-690's third set of interchange numbers.

[vdeane]

It would be nice (in fact, this would be a good opportunity for Region 3 to convert everything to mile-based, as there isn't a single freeway with exit numbers in the entire region save for the Thruway that is unaffected by this), but I-690 can just as easily adjust its exit changes by staying sequential.  The new interchange at Crouse and Irving is a replacement for existing exit 13, and with the changes to exit 11, exit 12 is freed up for BL I-81.

[Michael]

On the day after Thanksgiving, I drove I-481 from the northern terminus to NY 5/92.  I had never driven between the northern terminus and NY 298 before, and the last time I had been on that section of I-481 was in 2012.  As I was driving, I thought that it seemed narrow between the northern terminus and NY 298.  The large 90 degree curve between Northern Blvd and NY 298 wasn't as sharp as I was expecting as first, but it got sharper than I would have liked in the second half.  I think I slowed down to 55 or 60 in that part of the curve.

While I was driving through the I-690 interchange, I took a quick look to the side to look at one of the ghost ramps.  When I looked straight ahead again, I was closer to the right white line than I liked, and was surprised at how sharp the curve was within the interchange.  I've taken the ramp to I-690 at the interchange before too, and I don't like how sudden the ramp comes up and the departure angle of the ramp.  While I was on the bridge over the rail yard, I had to slow down a bit because a few cars ahead of me were slowing down, and it looked like one or two cars in the front of the pack were slowing down for the I-690 ramp.  If I-481 was to become I-81, I'd be concerned with the issues I saw during my drive.

On a side note, I'd never seen the congestion mentioned in the thread on I-481 until fairly recently.  The past few times I've been on I-481, traffic has slowed down to 55 a bit after merging southbound from I-690 until the NY 5/92 ramps.  A couple months ago, traffic even slowed down to 45 in the right lane a bit before the first ramp because of weaving in the cloverleaf.

[Bobby5280]

One "pro" that NYSDOT puts forward is the fact that ROW takings are going to be far less with the grid than with replacing the viaduct.  Another is that new ramps off of I-690 will be built that supposedly will help traffic get to Syracuse University (I am not so certain).  I believe they'll be at Crouse and maybe University.

Time will tell.

I think they're going to be sorry once they demolish the segment of I-81 between I-481 & I-690. One factor is the giant Destiny USA mall just north of the complex I-81/I-690 junction. Destiny USA is currently the 4th largest shopping mall in the United States. It's a major draw of traffic across the region. Can we expect shoppers heading up I-81 toward Syracuse to take the loop around the East side and I-690 back West again? I think a whole lot of that traffic will just keep going North and create a whole lotta gridlock in the downtown area. It should be lots and lots of fun for all the college people who were expecting a "walkable" downtown experience. The end result might really really suck.

[kalvado]

One "pro" that NYSDOT puts forward is the fact that ROW takings are going to be far less with the grid than with replacing the viaduct.  Another is that new ramps off of I-690 will be built that supposedly will help traffic get to Syracuse University (I am not so certain).  I believe they'll be at Crouse and maybe University.

Time will tell.

I think they're going to be sorry once they demolish the segment of I-81 between I-481 & I-690. One factor is the giant Destiny USA mall just north of the complex I-81/I-690 junction. Destiny USA is currently the 4th largest shopping mall in the United States. It's a major draw of traffic across the region. Can we expect shoppers heading up I-81 toward Syracuse to take the loop around the East side and I-690 back West again? I think a whole lot of that traffic will just keep going North and create a whole lotta gridlock in the downtown area. It should be lots and lots of fun for all the college people who were expecting a "walkable" downtown experience. The end result might really really suck.

And there is not a whole lot of traffic coming from the south. Cortland, Binghamton, Elmira are not really places with lots of free cash. Ithaca and Cornell can be a player, but still only that big.... Ottawa canbe bigger than all of those, but it is in the other direction

[froggie]

Something Bobby's probably not aware of but to keep in mind:  the Onondaga nation sits just south of the city, including much of the land along I-81 between 481 and Lafayette.  This has limited residential growth to the south as kalvado pointed out.  Sure, Carousel Center (the original name for "Destiny USA" and to which I will always call the place, Robert Congel and his grandiose ideas be damned) is a regional draw....but most of that draw is from an east-west direction.  Removing 81 south of 690 will have very little impact on that draw.

From what I recall (when my wife lived there in the mid-2000s), most of the growth in the area was to the northwest of Syracuse, the town of Clay in particular.

[Rothman]

Insofar as I know, I-81 is not being demolished the total length between I-481 and I-690.

[ixnay]

How will access to Syracuse Univ. be affected by the viaduct removal?  Per Google Sat, the viaduct begins three blocks west of the Carrier Dome.

ixnay

[Rothman]

The party line is that it won't be or some argue that it will be better.  Again, time will tell.

That said, SMTC and Syracuse PD (I believe) will be conducting a study of Carrier Dome access as the I-81 project unfolds.

[Bobby5280]

I lived in Liverpool (NW Syracuse suburb) in the 1980-81 time frame (spent a year at Liverpool Middle School). The Carrier Dome was brand new back then; I think it's the last of those kinds of domed stadiums now. The traffic on I-81 was pretty busy back then. I worry about one of two possible scenarios with an I-81 removal. One: street level traffic could get really bad due to freeway traffic getting dumped down to grade level with a series of stop lights. Two: a whole lot of traffic could simply avoid the downtown area, sticking to the outer areas or just North of I-690 for shopping, entertainment, etc. There are spots near downtown and the University that are a bit rough. Who wants to be stuck at stop lights in the middle of that?

I guess if the I-81 downtown tear-down backfires and causes some stagnation of the downtown they could just double down on the strategy and pitch removing I-690 next!

[machias]

Back in the day there was a push to build the Carrier Dome out at the Fairgrounds because there was too much gridlock downtown and getting to and from the Dome would be a nightmare. And it is a nightmare. This discussion was in the mid 70s and traffic counts were probably lower than they are today!

[bemybear]

So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...

Fear and hand wringing for years leading up to it...

Something between a non-reaction and a total shock at how little it mattered after it's done.

See:
Central Freeway in San Francisco CA
Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco CA
Harbor Freeway in Portland OR
Inner Loop in Rochester NY

Granted, San Francisco and Portland have substantial traffic and delays but it's not an easy argument to say that these missing roads are the cause of it or that any of them had any measurable impact on traffic whatsoever.

See also the recently created 14th street busway in NYC.

Just like decisions TO build things, I think the best path to 'unbuild' I-81 is to get it over with and focus on moving forward.  People underestimate how adaptable people are at finding ways to get around.  This is part of what makes induced demand so baffling.  How does that lovely new freeway come to be packed with people when it seemed to connect from nowhere to nowhere when it opened?  Why can't the opposite be true?  What will happen to those former I-81 AADT counts?   Some will go onto I-481, some will stay on surface streets, some use the new boulevard or whatever they are calling it and though it is hard to imagine or explain, I think history shows that some of those former trips just won't happen at all.... There is at least some precedent that suggests that the sun will still rise and people will still somehow conquer might Syracuse after I-81 as it is now known in the city ceases to exist!

[Beltway]

Central Freeway in San Francisco CA
Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco CA
Harbor Freeway in Portland OR
Inner Loop in Rochester PA

They were stubs that were replaced and/or supplemented by other nearby freeways.

The freeway removal activists always like to trot these out when they suggest removing a vital urban Interstate highway that carries a high volume of traffic.

[bemybear]

Beltway:
I lived in SF when the Central Freeway was truncated and believe me, if you listened to the radio or TV news you were basically told that traffic Armageddon was coming.  And from the AADT is seemed like a very 'vital' freeway.   And Armageddon most certainly didn't come.

Do you have suggestions for situations when a multi-year planned transition of a road from limited access to boulevard was a mobility disaster?  While not common, I'm sure there have been some substantial stretches of roadway that have either had a lane removed or gone from limited access to surface street etc.

[Beltway]

Beltway:
I lived in SF when the Central Freeway was truncated and believe me, if you listened to the radio or TV news you were basically told that traffic Armageddon was coming.  And from the AADT is seemed like a very 'vital' freeway.   And Armageddon most certainly didn't come.

It was a 1.0 mile stub, i.e. one end connected to surface streets.

Like the Embarcadero, it was a stub and it was heavily damaged in the 1989 earthquake.

Do you have suggestions for situations when a multi-year planned transition of a road from limited access to boulevard was a mobility disaster?  While not common, I'm sure there have been some substantial stretches of roadway that have either had a lane removed or gone from limited access to surface street etc.

No, because there have been no examples of removing an urban freeway that was a complete route thru the area.

Say like I-95 thru Philadelphia, as in what I mean by "a complete route thru the area."

[vdeane]

It's worth noting that, this being a through route, how it affects the whole system is something that should really be considered.  The removal would work fine for traffic going to downtown and for north-south through traffic, but what about other traffic?  I did a drive time comparison for traffic between I-81 south of exit 16A (southern I-481 junction) and the Thruway west of exit 39 (I-690), using the existing route (I-81->I-690), and two alternates (I-481->I-690 and I-481->I-90), and if I remember right, the alternates doubled the length of time the trip would take.  This would affect anyone heading from Rochester or Buffalo to places like Cortland, as well as anyone headed to/from Binghamton or PA to the State Fair or the Finger Lakes (and the western suburbs of Syracuse).

Even if you're not as much of a stickler for staying on the freeway/interstate system as I am, it's worth noting that there's no interchange between BL I-81 and I-690 other than the two ramps preserving the existing movements to the freeway to the north of downtown, so you'd have to find some other way though the city.

Maybe I've been spoiled by spending most of my life in the Rochester area and the Capital District, both of which have fairly comprehensive local freeway systems (assuming Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy doesn't get her way on the removal of I-787), but the fact that Syracuse doesn't (due to missing connections on the northwest side as well as the missing movements in the I-81/I-690 interchange) is an annoyance for me, and one reason why I'd be less likely to consider living in the area.  The removal of I-81 doesn't help matters - without it, you go from being unable to make some trips by staying on the freeway to being unable to make most trips by staying on the freeway (only the eastern suburbs and downtown would be unaffected).

(personal opinion)

[webny99]

Uh, yeah, removing the Inner Loop is not even remotely comparable to removing part of I-81. The Inner Loop was a ghost highway pretty much 24/7. It didn't serve an important local OR regional/statewide purpose.

With I-81, on the other hand, imagine killing an inner section of I-490, except worse, because Syracuse has MUCH more through traffic than Rochester, and (as noted by vdeane) the Syracuse freeway system is already sub-par compared to Buffalo, Rochester, and Albany. We should be trying to make their medium-range connectivity for commuters and travelers better, not worse.

[sprjus4]

So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...

If it's such a consistent pattern, how many mainline 2di long-distance interstates have been removed and not replaced?

All of your examples are spur, local highways.

[bemybear]

So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...

If it's such a consistent pattern, how many mainline 2di long-distance interstates have been removed and not replaced?

All of your examples are spur, local highways.

I feel really conflicted with this issue.  I'm really NOT somebody who would like to remove or downgrade a bunch of roads in some reverse Robert Moses way.   But I am of the belief that the impacts of this will be minimal.

Oddly, almost none of us who are so interested in this seem to actually work or live in Syracuse, a city I usually avoid because it has little redeeming virtue in my eyes, regardless of the roads.  but what if we look at this from the perspective of various stakeholders and road users:

Through travelers (non road geeks mostly): The I-81 designation will be moved to what is now I-481.  Truckers, people passing through (or more likely, around) Syracuse will follow signs for I-81 and be on I-481.  It's a better road with easier expansion options, it doesn't have a nasty right exit left merge for people headed to the Thruway/Fairgrounds.  It doesn't have a 40 or 45 MPH speed limit or whatever that slow part of I-81 has.  It has shoulders.  It isn't a rusting narrow overpass.  It might add a few miles but the average speed should be slightly higher.  It's probably a net loss to those users of a few minutes.  I-481 will be busier and probably need expansion sooner but this project already includes some expansion of it.

Locals/the local Illuminati who are pushing this plan: They were using the freeway for the shortest trips, many of them probably for less than 5 miles. They will quickly try and either accept or reject the boulevard as an alternative and they already know how to get around without I-81 anyway. The travel time penalty will be modest for them.  They are also supposedly the ones who want I-81 removed.

Those two groups really aren't coming out that badly.  The hardest hit will probably be those who commute into Syracuse from relatively far away areas that I-481 is exactly in the wrong place for.  Those users will make repeated trips to the same destination and will repeatedly suffer whatever the time and/or safety penalty is.  But the hand wringing about this loss seems to assume that I-81 is being obliterated and replaced with a sidewalk.  I don't think that is the case.  It's being replaced with a road (yes with lights, yes not a 55 MPH road) that will be wide, have reasonable curves, hopefully timed lights etc.  It isn't as though average speeds will go from 50 MPH to 10 MPH.  It's probably more like from 50 MPH to 25 MPH.  And, very importantly, the VAST majority of people who are going to something that is somewhere on the current I-81 section in Syracuse will NOT BE DRIVING THE ENTIRE LENGTH of the reduced road (otherwise they'd just use the bypass).  So maybe on average those commuting/student/shopping/whatever users will have 5 miles of their journey that used to be I-81 now be on a slower road.  5 miles at 25 MPH = 12 minutes.  5 miles at 50 MPH = 6.  Those users on average might loose about 6 minutes.  And it is this effect that HAS been simulated by removing or downgrading these other urban roadways.  If you cherry pick and count only the part of the journey that was on the removed road you might be able to say it doubled their travel time but unless your house is on an existing I-81 on-ramp and whatever you were going to was at the end of an off-ramp, the truth is that slowing down part of a journey for a relatively modest part of the total population just isn't going to be a disaster.

It would be interesting to have a visualization of what I-81 traffic in Syracuse would look like if it was just people who actually had a destination that was on the part of the roadway in question.

[ixnay]

The rerouted I-81 will appear on a map similar to I-83's dodge of York, PA, only at a radius from downtown that's a few miles longer (York is quite smaller than Syracuse).

Are there plans to reconfigure the (current) I-81/I-481/NY 481 interchange?  Per Google Sat that's currently a cloverleaf.  Rerouting I-81 IMO will require flyovers eventually.

ixnay

[froggie]

Are there plans to reconfigure the (current) I-81/I-481/NY 481 interchange?  Per Google Sat that's currently a cloverleaf.  Rerouting I-81 IMO will require flyovers eventually.

Not flyovers per se, but yes the alternative that moves 81 onto 481 builds direct connectors at the northern 81/481 interchange.

[vdeane]

Yes, both I-481 interchanges would be reconfigured.  I had to do some digging to find an article with images of them: https://expo.syracuse.com/news/g66l-2019/04/8c50a10c522772/how-would-community-grid-work-check-out-maps-from-interstate-81-report.html

While doing said digging, I also found my analysis of traffic moving between the south and west:

I just did some Google directions from LaFayette (I-81 exit 15) to Weedsport (I-90 exit 40) to compare times.  I-81/I-690/I-90 and I-81/I-90 are both 39 minutes, while I-81/I-481/I-90 and I-81/I-481/I-690/I-90 are 46 (the last one is also the only one to require more than one shaping point).  Of course, in addition to time, there's also the principle of replacing what used to be 3 miles with 12 miles, and the fact that there will no longer be a good all-freeway route for trips from the western suburbs to/from points south or points south to/from the Fair or the northern Finger Lakes (I'm also the person who selects apartments based on how many trips in the metro area can be made with the freeway system (excluding the Thruway, which in my mind is mainly for long-distance travel, going to Canandaigua Lake, or Schenectady) as a backbone).

I don't disagree that north-south through traffic would be minimally impacted.  That's why I didn't even bother to do an analysis of it at the time.  It's only two minutes and three miles longer over a 12 mile corridor.  What I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.

Honestly, I'd have a lot fewer objections to removing I-81 if the southwest bypass had been built.  That would solve those concerns.  Unfortunately, it's no longer possible to build.

(personal opinion)

[froggie]

What I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.

Because the studies found even fewer folks making those movements than are making the through north-south movement.

While I agree that some sort of southwest bypass would be useful as an alternative, there aren't enough south-west movements to make the cost justifiable.  You and Josh are notable (and vocal) exceptions to the lack of people making movements in those directions.

[vdeane]

When did they study that?  Between all the PA plates I see when driving the Thruway west of Syracuse in the summer and the very noticeable change in traffic at exit 39, I'm guessing they didn't study it when everyone is heading out on vacation.

That's probably why Josh and I are the "notable exceptions" - we're the ones who drive I-90 between Albany and Rochester/Buffalo several times a year.

[froggie]

It was part of the project/corridor studies.  Surprised you didn't pick up on that before.

The "noticeable change in traffic at Exit 39" can easily be explained by that being the primary entry into Syracuse from the west.

The Thruway is also close enough to the PA border to where it doesn't surprise me that there are a number of PA plates on it.  Not much different than the multitude of Mass plates I see all over here in northern Vermont.