Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[cl94]

South-West is the signed truck route from west of Syracuse to Cortland and south, to the point where there are signs on the Thruway west of NY 14 telling trucks to use I-690 and I-81. That pair of ramps has not had a public class count, so I can't check how many trucks make that movement, but there's a pretty steady parade of trucks exiting the Thruway at 690 most times I'm through there.

For 81 NB - 481NB, the last class count (2008) showed 40% trucks. If the N-W class count is even remotely close, that's a lot of trucks you're moving.

[vdeane]

It was part of the project/corridor studies.  Surprised you didn't pick up on that before.

I'm not Region 3 and it's not like I've read every single word of the EIS.  I skimmed through a few sections and the analysis appears to focus on the areas already widely reported (north-south through traffic and traffic to/from downtown), freight from the south to/from the airport, and consumers from the south to/from DestiNY USA.  Naturally, the analysis did not include my "all freeway/no Thruway" preferences (a result of my combination of obsession with the chargeable interstate system and logical additions and Aspergian inflexibility; I'm only getting more set in my ways as I get older).  I'm probably spoiled by living in the Capital District - ignoring Breezewood junctions and incomplete roads like I-86, aside from Vermont, I'm hard-pressed to think of anywhere in the US or Canada that would require me to go significantly out of my way to access via the interstate system (or equivalent) that isn't wholly disconnected from the system entirely (Providence is my best guess right now, but even that hinges on how "significantly out of my way" I-495 would be over MA/RI 146; the north shore of Lake Ontario (including Kingston) is also arguable, but one could also think of ON 137 as a giant Breezewood).  Losing that is one thing I wouldn't like about moving back to Rochester, and this doesn't help.

[webny99]

What I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.

Because the studies found even fewer folks making those movements than are making the through north-south movement.

But if you have half the volume, and quadruple the impact, doesn't that mean it still deserves twice as much attention?

It's not like there's just a handful of people making that south-west connection.. it's in the thousands, and is important on both smaller (think Rochester-Cortland) and larger (think Buffalo-NYC) levels in terms of connectivity.

[Beltway]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

[Rothman]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.

[Beltway]

Lots of photos --
Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .
Syracuse needs to check this out!

Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.

So they choose defeat instead of victory, failure instead of success?

[Plutonic Panda]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.

Incredibly foolish and shortsighted.

[sprjus4]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.

[Rothman]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.

Improvements to I-481 are included in the I-81 project.

Concerns like vdeane's are more valid.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[vdeane]

It's worth noting that there are already signs directing I-81 north-south through traffic to take I-481, though I'm guessing not everyone actually does.  Thinking about how traffic flows in Syracuse, it might just be a Syracuse thing to drive 60-65 even on the suburban freeways posted at 65 (I didn't notice anyone other than myself slowing down the last time I was on I-81 where it dropped to 55 at exit 23).

[sprjus4]

Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!

Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.

Improvements to I-481 are included in the I-81 project.

Concerns like vdeane's are more valid.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I-481 is being widened to 6-lanes?

[vdeane]

I-481 is being widened to 6-lanes?

Both directions between exits 4 and 5 and NB between exits 5 and 6.

[Beltway]

Alabama and Birmingham show us how to do it.

The Alabama Department of Transportation is preparing to open the new Interstate 59/20 bridges across the Magic City -- a $700 million project that is finishing early -- by Jan. 21. The project, funded by ALDOT, the Federal Highway Administration and the Birmingham Metropolitan Planning Organization, started in 2015. Traffic was diverted to Interstate 459 and surface roads all around one year ago. "We are very excited that we are getting to a point where we can put traffic back on 59/20 through downtown Birmingham,"  said ALDOT East Central Regional Engineer DeJarvis Leonard.

Article and photos here --
https://www.al.com/news/2020/01/alabama-your-700-million-i-5920-bridge-through-birmingham-is-ready.html

[Plutonic Panda]

They can build that wide freeway for 700 million yet NYSDOT estimates billions to rebuild a 4 lane highway?

I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.

[sprjus4]

A major improvement over the previous 6-lane bridge with minimal shoulders on either side, plus left exits / entrances to local streets. No tolls or HO/T lanes included in the project either, another nice plus. This, along with the fact that I-59 and I-20 traffic additionally have I-459 as an outer bypass of the city.

It's a shame New York is going forth with the current project.

Next time I head southwest, I'll be sure to route through Birmingham to see the new roadway, presumably within the next 6 months. I've actually been through there my last few trips, though have utilized I-459 every time since a) the interstate was closed through Downtown and b) it avoids the city entirely.

[sprjus4]

I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.

Tunnel = expensive = tolls.

[Beltway]

I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.

Tunnel = expensive = tolls.

Right.  Just replace the viaduct with a modern viaduct.

[sprjus4]

I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.

Tunnel = expensive = tolls.

Right.  Just replace the viaduct with a modern viaduct.

Yes. Alabama did it right.

In the case of New York, $2 billion will be spent regardless of which option chosen, so if they were smart, they'd put it towards the most beneficial option in the long term.

[Rothman]

I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.

Does the viaduct rebuild option require taking new ROW?

[amroad17]

Observation about the Birmingham project: Could ALDOT have built the bridge closer to the parking garage there on the left? 

If something similar to this could be done in Syracuse, I would be all for it.  However, I believe there is a more limited right-of-way around the viaduct, plus there is the I-81/I-690 interchange to contend with.  This is what happens when Interstate highways were "jammed" (or "rammed") through a downtown area in the 1960's.  NYSDOT snaked I-81 north of I-690 around buildings and basically bulldozed a "slum" neighborhood south of I-690 to build the viaduct--not even thinking about what will need to happen when the viaduct's useful life would end.  No foresight whatsoever.

[kalvado]

I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.

Does the viaduct rebuild option require taking new ROW?

Yes, and demolition of a couple of buildings - some old and historic -  as well.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2016/10/here_are_the_four_buildings_doomed_under_any_i-81_plan_and_20_more_doo.html

[vdeane]

Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.

[kalvado]

Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.

Why, letting old structure rot out and collapse doesn't require anything. And we know that has a fat chance to actually happen...  Is there any funding allocated for I-81 yet? May be interesting with latest budget news

[vdeane]

Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.

Why, letting old structure rot out and collapse doesn't require anything. And we know that has a fat chance to actually happen...  Is there any funding allocated for I-81 yet? May be interesting with latest budget news

If that actually happened there'd probably at least be a temporary easement involved to get the demolition done.