Interstate 81 in Syracuse

Started by The Ghostbuster, May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Rothman

Eesh.  The truth lies between that optimism and those that predict Armageddon.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.


sprjus4

Quote from: bemybear on January 21, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Also, the 'corridor' will be intact.  Normal non road geeks will blandly/blindly follow signage and be on the lovely modern and soon to be improved I-481.  They aren't creating a section of gravel road between Scranton and I-90.  They are shifting a bunch of trucks and disinterested through traffic to a newer piece of road and turning the old road which used to be the almost everybody road into hopefully a reasonably tolerable road that most non Syracuse people will never use and most people who do use it will on only be on for 2 or 3 miles.  How this modest change becomes the downfall of an entire region is really a head scratcher.
I-481 is a beltway route that serves primarily local traffic. Pushing thru traffic on it will only overload it, and necessitate widening its 14 miles to 6-lanes, at least $300 million, if not much more. The movement from I-81 North to I-690 West will be eliminated and reduced to local boulevard, or far out of the way on I-481 and I-690.

Quote from: bemybear on January 21, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
2. The boulevard doesn't cost almost as much as rebuilding the viaduct.  The boulevard PLUS substantial work to make I-481 capable of handling significantly more traffic.... Costs almost as much as the viaduct rebuild.
Community grid - $1.9 billion
Viaduct replacement - $2.2 billion

$300 million difference. Once you factor eventual I-481 widening for 14 miles, you're talking the same costs, or even more for the community grid & I-481 re-route.

Viaduct replacement benefits local, regional, and long-distance traffic alike. The community grid pours $1.9 billion into a project to appease locals, NIMBY, and RE/T groups that doesn't have a widespread benefit. The viaduct replacement would also continue to allow 2 north-south routes - the main I-81 and an alternate I-481. A community grid restricts this solely to I-481, and offers no other north-south options. The viaduct replacement additionally has more lane capacity overall, 4 lanes on I-481, and 6 lanes on a replaced I-81 - 10 north-south lanes total. The community grid restricts this to only 4 lanes, 6 lanes if they pour $300 million or more into widening. The viaduct replacement also keeps the I-81 North to I-690 West movement intact, the community grid eliminates this, requiring use of surface streets, or traveling out of the way to remain on interstate highways.

Ultimately, the viaduct replacement is the better option in the long-term of things, and benefits all. The community grid will shift traffic patterns, congest the only other north-south route necessitating future widening, add mileage, and eliminate regional interstate movements, all to appease locals, NIMBY, and RE/T groups.

ixnay

#677
Quote from: webny99 on January 19, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?

Not sure about safety (that has never really been an issue in the CBD), but definitely all of the above other than that.

It's amazing how much less of a ghost town it feels like with that empty highway filled, and it really provides a lot more continuity between booming areas like Park Avenue/ South Wedge and the CBD. (And at least we have some new vacant buildings now instead of just old ones!  :-D)

Has downtown Niagara Falls benefited similarly from the removal of the Robert Moses Parkway?  Looking at Google Sat, it looks like downtown Houston with all the parking lots.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

seicer

Considering that urban renewal that created many of those downtown parking lots happened back in the 1960s and 1970s, I'd say... give it time. There are a lot of redevelopment proposals underway in the Niagara Falls area and in downtown to the north.

I'm pretty certain you aren't sad over the removal of the Parkway through the state park, right?

Rothman

Right.  The parkway was removed only recently.  It's a bit early to gauge its effects which I doubt will be major.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

The Ghostbuster

How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.

sprjus4

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 22, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.

A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.

kalvado

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 22, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.

A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.

Beltway

Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Not to mention, the major I-81 to I-90 connection via I-690 that would be eliminated.

I-90 is a major east-west interstate highway, certainly not at the "dead end of things" .

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 09:37:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81.  I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Not to mention, the major I-81 to I-90 connection via I-690 that would be eliminated.
I-90 is a major east-west interstate highway, certainly not at the "dead end of things" .
If they want to keep calling themselves the "Empire State," then they need to do better than this.

The source of the term "Empire State" is uncertain.  It has been attributed to the state's wealth and resources, but there is some doubt regarding that.  Two possible stories involve America's first president George Washington.

There are several theories on the origin of the name.  Two of them involve George Washington, one credits aggressive trade routes, and another associates the nickname with New York exceeding Virginia in population.  None has been proven.  One commonly accepted tale says that, when Washington was given a full map of New York prior to the Battle of New York, he remarked on New York's natural geographic advantages, proclaiming New York the "Seat of an Empire".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

Well, that conversation took a weird turn.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?

Beltway

Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

seicer

While an important connector, it's not as busy as some boasters make it out to be.

kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
and less than 6000 at actual border crossing.

webny99

Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically

Wouldn't that be Oswego?


Quote from: ixnay on January 22, 2020, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 19, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.
Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.
More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?
Not sure about safety (that has never really been an issue in the CBD), but definitely all of the above other than that.
It's amazing how much less of a ghost town it feels like with that empty highway filled, and it really provides a lot more continuity between booming areas like Park Avenue/ South Wedge and the CBD. (And at least we have some new vacant buildings now instead of just old ones!  :-D)
Has downtown Niagara Falls benefited similarly from the removal of the Robert Moses Parkway?  Looking at Google Sat, it looks like downtown Houston with all the parking lots.

Complicated question, but almost certainly "no". The RMSP was weirdly located, and the removal didn't do much in terms of connectivity. Niagara Falls has the tourist area near the falls, and the rest of it is a grim, depressed place. I don't think any changes to the road network are going to change that, as they don't have two separate thriving areas (the CBD/Corn Hill/South Wedge and the Park/East Ave area, in Rochester's case). It's basically just the falls and that's it, as far as economic activity.

froggie

Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.

I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:

Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.

For the I-81 South to I-90 West connection that everyone is lamenting, the number is even lower...just over 2K.

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?

entire Jefferson county is 116k in 2010, estimated decline to 111k today.
How many of those people take long haul drive more than once a week?
How many of those who do drive go beyond airport or a big shopping mall?  both drives are not affected by this project.

You see, there is a lot of discussion here regarding who is actually affected by the project. Discussions by those who know the area, drove there, and have some idea what this is about. I, for one, is not a big expert - I've been there maybe 30-50 times. Things are messy - but they are messy not the way you think about it.

Beltway

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 08:52:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"
For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?
entire Jefferson county is 116k in 2010, estimated decline to 111k today.
How many of those people take long haul drive more than once a week?
How many of those who do drive go beyond airport or a big shopping mall?  both drives are not affected by this project.
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

froggie

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?

The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

vdeane

IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.
Vdeane is pretty correct (I added something to the quote) - that is who would get problems, along with commuters .
Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA/Ithaca and Cornell looking to go to the SYR airport/western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.

seicer

Syracuse gets some traffic for Ithaca/Cornell, but we found that about 50% of our students that do fly go out of Rochester and the remainder fly out of Ithaca (which will soon be an international airport).



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.