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Interstate 81 in Syracuse

Started by The Ghostbuster, May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

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Beltway

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
I did not use those words or say that.

I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.

Data.  Need engineering data.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)


kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
I did not use those words or say that.

I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.

Data.  Need engineering data.
http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.

You've done this a lot.

webny99

It's even harder to believe that there's only 2000 VPD transitioning between I-81 NB and the Thruway WB and vice versa. Maybe on a winter weekday when there's a big snowstorm (just to name a situation when few people would want to be traveling); but in the summer? I don't think so. I look at the volume of Ontario and PA license plates on either route and I'm highly skeptical.

sprjus4

Quote from: webny99 on January 24, 2020, 07:15:30 PM
It's even harder to believe that there's only 2000 VPD transitioning between I-81 NB and the Thruway WB and vice versa. Maybe on a winter weekday when there's a big snowstorm (just to name a situation when few people would want to be traveling); but in the summer? I don't think so. I look at the volume of Ontario and PA license plates on either route and I'm highly skeptical.
Could also be decent amount during peak vs. very little to none off peak. Remember it is averaged.

May be better to see peak volumes separate from overall AADT. The design needs to be designed off that IMO.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?

Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.

Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?

Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.

Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?
Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.
Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.
Can't just claim "the report says xxxx" without showing where it says that.

Some posters have a habit of doing that.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

kalvado

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:29:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?
Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.
Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.
Can't just claim "the report says xxxx" without showing where it says that.

Some posters have a habit of doing that.
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?

Beltway

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.

cl94

It's nice to finally see numbers, but looking through, there is one key thing missing: freight movements. The study considers person-trips. The words "truck", "freight", or "heavy" appear a total of 0 times in the document. 81 on the south side of the metro is 25% trucks. I want to know how they are moving, how many of them are terminating in the metro area, and where they are terminating in the metro area. If they're using license plate data, it would have been very easy to track truck movements.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.

I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.

If you know the FActs then please post them.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.

I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.

If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 01:09:04 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.
I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.
If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.
Unlike some people, I can embrace contradiction, as I analyze an issue and work toward finding a solution.  That means sometimes being found incorrect and needing to readjust my understanding.

Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 01:09:04 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.
I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.
If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.
Unlike some people, I can embrace contradiction, as I analyze an issue and work toward finding a solution.  That means sometimes being found incorrect and needing to readjust my understanding.

Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
OK, here goes.
This is a very macro model, far outside the reaches of I-481. We only see broad regional data. Anything closer than this, we don't know. So we don't know how much traffic is being generated from either cordon to I-481, going past the other I-481/81 junction. However, in broad terms, 1300 SB and 900 NB trips are through trips on I-81 in this region, or 2200 total. Page 79, the predicted trips are 1700 SB and 1200 NB. However, since the residential density on p. 22-23 is mostly within the confines of I-481, not too much traffic should be added to that. 6,000 is believable.

amroad17

Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
If a motorist comes toward Syracuse from the south and needs to go to the places mentioned by vdeane, they would have to use 2 or 4-lane suburban roads.  For example, if a motorist from Binghamton wants to go to the State Fair, they would either have to go through on the downtown "boulevard" to reach I-690 west or, if they wanted to avoid the downtown area completely, they would have to exit at the Nedrow interchange, go north on US 11, turn left on NY 173, turn right on West Genesee Street to reach the NY 5 Camillus bypass, and then exit on to NY 695 to reach the Fairgrounds.  A bit of a convoluted way to reach the destination but there aren't too many other options available short of following current I-481/future I-81 to I-690 west in DeWitt if a motorist wanted to stay on a freeway.

All this is contingent on completing the Community Grid option.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

Rothman

Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

ixnay

Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.

Yep, soon (enough) some Syracusan will have to parody Springsteen's "I'm Going Down". :)

Meanwhile there are other bones of contention re the com-grid:

1)  What to name the boulevard.
2)  What to number it (and its approaches).  Business Loop [I-]81, perhaps?

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Hwy 61 Revisited

Quote from: ixnay on January 25, 2020, 07:13:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.

Yep, soon (enough) some Syracusan will have to parody Springsteen's "I'm Going Down". :)

Meanwhile there are other bones of contention re the com-grid:

1)  What to name the boulevard.
2)  What to number it (and its approaches).  Business Loop [I-]81, perhaps?

ixnay

It will be designated as BL 81, that is for sure. It might be designated as 81st Blvd, if they are feeling cheeky, and there is no actual 81st street in Syracuse.
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 01:19:42 AM
Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
OK, here goes.
This is a very macro model, far outside the reaches of I-481. We only see broad regional data. Anything closer than this, we don't know. So we don't know how much traffic is being generated from either cordon to I-481, going past the other I-481/81 junction. However, in broad terms, 1300 SB and 900 NB trips are through trips on I-81 in this region, or 2200 total. Page 79, the predicted trips are 1700 SB and 1200 NB. However, since the residential density on p. 22-23 is mostly within the confines of I-481, not too much traffic should be added to that. 6,000 is believable.
That seems a good analysis, and allows that the study could have been more detailed.

I-81 between Syracuse and Watertown is as low as about 15,000 AADT, and between Syracuse and Binghamton dips to 19,000 at one point; so the 6,000 thru figure may well fit with those data.

Still, the section of I-81 with the viaduct carries a lot of traffic, so there are other issues at work as well that factor into what should be done there, whatever final outcome takes place.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

vdeane

#723
Quote from: cl94 on January 24, 2020, 09:45:29 PM
It's nice to finally see numbers, but looking through, there is one key thing missing: freight movements. The study considers person-trips. The words "truck", "freight", or "heavy" appear a total of 0 times in the document. 81 on the south side of the metro is 25% trucks. I want to know how they are moving, how many of them are terminating in the metro area, and where they are terminating in the metro area. If they're using license plate data, it would have been very easy to track truck movements.
A number of truckers have threatened to divert to Auburn and elsewhere if the viaduct is removed.  The fact that the study didn't include freight is very, very interesting.  One would have thought that NYSDOT would have wanted yet more data to prove that the "community grid" won't negatively affect anything significant.

Quote from: amroad17 on January 25, 2020, 07:28:42 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
If a motorist comes toward Syracuse from the south and needs to go to the places mentioned by vdeane, they would have to use 2 or 4-lane suburban roads.  For example, if a motorist from Binghamton wants to go to the State Fair, they would either have to go through on the downtown "boulevard" to reach I-690 west or, if they wanted to avoid the downtown area completely, they would have to exit at the Nedrow interchange, go north on US 11, turn left on NY 173, turn right on West Genesee Street to reach the NY 5 Camillus bypass, and then exit on to NY 695 to reach the Fairgrounds.  A bit of a convoluted way to reach the destination but there aren't too many other options available short of following current I-481/future I-81 to I-690 west in DeWitt if a motorist wanted to stay on a freeway.

All this is contingent on completing the Community Grid option.
Can't just go up the downtown boulevard to I-690.  There will be no interchange between the two.  Additional local streets will be needed to make the connection.  I assume that's how NYSDOT will force traffic to disperse along the local streets rather than just take the boulevard.  The only ramps between I-690 and BL I-81 will be the existing ramps to the freeway to the north.

On that note, I really, really wish they would do something else for existing I-81.  Call the freeway I-481 or I-681 and make the rest a reference route (or touring route extension of I-681?).  I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

Just for fun, I also compared the distances for using current I-81 vs. I-481 and I-690 to using originally proposed I-390 to I-590 and I-490.  Despite looking similar on the surface, the contrast is stark - 4 miles to 12 miles vs. 3 miles to less than 8 miles.  And in my experience, I-590 moves faster (outside of rush hour) than I-481 does now, despite carrying all the traffic proposed I-390 would have and having a 10 mph slower speed limit!

Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.
Yeah, because NY has billions for an air train to nowhere that no passenger will use to get to LaGuardia (seriously, we're spending billions to build what will essentially be a shuttle to an employee parking lot that probably wouldn't be needed were there a real and useful transit link to LaGuardia), but doesn't have a couple hundred million to replace the viaduct.  It will eviscerate NY's interstate network and Syracuse's freeway network, turning them into random corridor collections, and embolden freeway removal activists everywhere by being the first major through route to be obliterated.  Captain Picard put it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms_WY0s_1XM

(personal opinion)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

ixnay

Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.