Atlanta

[Tom958]

The biggest thing that screws up 285 is the 20 interchange; if they can get that operating efficiently, that will be where the biggest time saving will be

When I went to the open house about the project, I noticed that the proposed fix for that ramp was inadequate. The GDOT people there agreed, but apparently saving a handful of fifty-year-old subdivision houses was of greater concern. In fact, the video I'm linking states, "The project will not displace anyone from their home or business."

Here's the video link. The visualization starts at 5:00, and the best view of that ramp is shortly after that. Essentially, that ramp and the ramp from I-20 will be as they are today, each being one lane and combining into two on the CD. The new two-lane flyover ramp from southbound 285 will come in from the right and add another two lanes to the CD, making a total of four instead of three today. Unfortunately, there'll be a lot of weaving turbulence since traffic wishing to exit at Wesley Chapel will have to merge right at least twice, and the two lanes from southbound 285 will both lead to the Wesley Chapel offramp. I probably suggested that they at least provide a third recovery lane for drivers who can't merge left fast enough.

[architect77]

The biggest thing that screws up 285 is the 20 interchange; if they can get that operating efficiently, that will be where the biggest time saving will be

When I went to the open house about the project, I noticed that the proposed fix for that ramp was inadequate. The GDOT people there agreed, but apparently saving a handful of fifty-year-old subdivision houses was of greater concern. In fact, the video I'm linking states, "The project will not displace anyone from their home or business."

Here's the video link. The visualization starts at 5:00, and the best view of that ramp is shortly after that. Essentially, that ramp and the ramp from I-20 will be as they are today, each being one lane and combining into two on the CD. The new two-lane flyover ramp from southbound 285 will come in from the right and add another two lanes to the CD, making a total of four instead of three today. Unfortunately, there'll be a lot of weaving turbulence since traffic wishing to exit at Wesley Chapel will have to merge right at least twice, and the two lanes from southbound 285 will both lead to the Wesley Chapel offramp. I probably suggested that they at least provide a third recovery lane for drivers who can't merge left fast enough.

I would think that trucks would be the biggest customer of managed lanes along 285's top end. A higher fee for trucks would bring in more revenue for the state, but I realize that if the sometimes elevated lanes had some steep inclines and declines like 75's express lanes supposedly do (which prevent traveling at high speeds on the tollercoaster) that it would present a problem for heavily-loaded trucks.

Regardless I believe enough people will use the express lanes on 285 to ease the general purpose lanes enoigh to help freight get through Georgia's only major corridor for [East-coast to West] freight movement.

The proposed BRT could use the express lanes mixed with paying customers right?

it would be a waste to have a restricted, dedicated lane for local buses only because even at 5 minute intervals it would sit unused most of the time.

[ran4sh]

I would think that trucks would be the biggest customer of managed lanes along 285's top end. A higher fee for trucks would bring in more revenue for the state, but I realize that if the sometimes elevated lanes had some steep inclines and declines like 75's express lanes supposedly do (which prevent traveling at high speeds on the tollercoaster) that it would present a problem for heavily-loaded trucks.

Regardless I believe enough people will use the express lanes on 285 to ease the general purpose lanes enoigh to help freight get through Georgia's only major corridor for [East-coast to West] freight movement.

Thru trucks on I-20 wouldn't be on the top end. Using the south side of I-285 is shorter and has much less traffic.

The truck traffic on the top end is either local, or is going between e.g. I-85 on the north and I-20 on the west, etc

[Tomahawkin]

Good point, I also forgot how bad the bottleneck is from 285 west to 85 south (Airport/warehouse and traffic to the southwest suburbs). One lane to get from 285 west to 85 southbound isn't going to cut it. This also should have been addressed over a decade ago

[Dirt Roads]

The proposed BRT could use the express lanes mixed with paying customers right?

I haven't seen the GDOT proposal, but what you suggest is typical to plan a BRT system to utilize the express lanes of a freeway.  The classic definition of BRT suggests that buses operate over something that resembles a rapid transit system over much of the corridor (think replacing a costly LRT proposal with buses).  That does not necessarily require a dedicated busway, but there should be a number of "inline stations".  Obviously, the buses cannot stop in the middle of the express lanes, but the stations could be placed within a wide median or bus-only exits from the express lanes. 

[Tom958]

Good point, I also forgot how bad the bottleneck is from 285 west to 85 south (Airport/warehouse and traffic to the southwest suburbs). One lane to get from 285 west to 85 southbound isn't going to cut it. This also should have been addressed over a decade ago

I don't see much problem with capacity there, and those of us who are in the know can bypass that ramp by taking the Old National Highway-South Fulton Parkway exit and the subsequent loop ramp to 85 south. Fun fact: for the opposite movement coming northbound, Wanda Waze always tells me to use the CD.

However, the weaving section on 285 between Riverdale Road and 85 is too short, and I don't see much of a way to deal with it due to the close proximity of the CD road terminals to the west. The obvious solution would be to eliminate access from Riverdale Road to westbound 285 and force traffic to remain on Riverdale Road to 85, or to make its way to the Old National Highway interchange instead. FHWA wouldn't be happy with that.

[Tomahawkin]

Yes, That merge between Riverdale road and the 85 exit ramp is a cluster#### during the afternoons. I totally forgot using the exit off of Old Natty and using the C/D roads to bypass that bottleneck. I will keep that in mind when I go to Panama City in 3 months

[architect77]

I would think that trucks would be the biggest customer of managed lanes along 285's top end. A higher fee for trucks would bring in more revenue for the state, but I realize that if the sometimes elevated lanes had some steep inclines and declines like 75's express lanes supposedly do (which prevent traveling at high speeds on the tollercoaster) that it would present a problem for heavily-loaded trucks.

Regardless I believe enough people will use the express lanes on 285 to ease the general purpose lanes enoigh to help freight get through Georgia's only major corridor for [East-coast to West] freight movement.

Thru trucks on I-20 wouldn't be on the top end. Using the south side of I-285 is shorter and has much less traffic.

The truck traffic on the top end is either local, or is going between e.g. I-85 on the north and I-20 on the west, etc

You've got all the industry from the Northeast and Carolinas (60 million plus population) moving frieight to the Gulf Coast states and Texas.

They use I-85 South and more or less have no other option than Top End I-285 West bound.

Some might fare better using East 285 to I-20 then cut through the center of town, but I doubt many truckers ever consider it or do it.

If they can use the top end express lanes I'll bet they will. With restrictions on the number of hours behind the wheel, they have a reason to travel as far as possible in a given amount of time. The toll cost is probably well worth the time savings if in fact they are able to use them.

* * * * * *
BRT with inline platforms will work for GA 400, but are there enough spots along 285 that are populated enough for drop offs/ons to be successful?  Cumberland, Perimeter and Doraville. are good, beyond that I don't know.

[Tom958]

The proposed BRT could use the express lanes mixed with paying customers right?

I haven't seen the GDOT proposal, but what you suggest is typical to plan a BRT system to utilize the express lanes of a freeway.  The classic definition of BRT suggests that buses operate over something that resembles a rapid transit system over much of the corridor (think replacing a costly LRT proposal with buses).  That does not necessarily require a dedicated busway, but there should be a number of "inline stations".  Obviously, the buses cannot stop in the middle of the express lanes, but the stations could be placed within a wide median or bus-only exits from the express lanes.

Like the Harbor Transitway, except that between 75 and 85 the roadways will usually be separate from each other and off to the sides of the mainline rather than together in the median. I understand the appeal, but what I've heard about the Harbor Transitway's ridership performance has not been encouraging.

[Dirt Roads]

BRT with inline platforms will work for GA 400, but are there enough spots along 285 that are populated enough for drop offs/ons to be successful?  Cumberland, Perimeter and Doraville. are good, beyond that I don't know.

Not all of the bus route needs to be BRT service.  Just the part funded by the FTA New Starts Program.  I would presume that the new BRT system would terminate at the Sandy Spring Station on the MARTA Red Line.  But it would be appropriate to continue the BRT service down Route 148 (MARTA bus route) along the Mount Vernon Highway and Powers Ferry Road.  It would also be appropriate to continue as an express bus route into downtown Atlanta.

[Tomahawkin]

If I could take the Bus From Tucker a mile 2 miles south of Spaghetti Junction and get to the Battery in 25 minutes. I'm all in. I just we had That kind of efficient transit from Spaghetti Junction to Lake Lanier, which is a serious pipedream but the reality is that people who live in Buford and Gainesville commute to Atlanta therefore they had to be on the road at 5am in the mornings

[architect77]

i think the Feds should reduce the amount of required, standardized signage for Express Lanes. Even in other cities besides Atlanta the overall look is very cluttered and somewhat confusing because of so much to read and process.

When it's just a lane demarked from the general purpose lanes, are the LOCAL EXITS signs really necessary? I'd nix them.

Then The EXPRESS LANE price schedule signs are way too big and they're always mounted over the middle of the general purpose lanes as if more important than any other info such as upcoming major interstates, or exits,.etc.

The signs indicating the spots to enter the express lane are necessary, but I wish everything pertaining to these lanes was over to the left, closer to the lane itself, and not taking the top hierarchical spot away from the main road itself.

[ran4sh]

When it's just a lane demarked from the general purpose lanes, are the LOCAL EXITS signs really necessary? I'd nix them.

Without those signs, how does express lane traffic know where to exit the express lane?

Edit

Regarding the price signs, they are visible to the general lanes because the price is information that drivers use to decide whether or not to use the express lane

[Georgia]

When it's just a lane demarked from the general purpose lanes, are the LOCAL EXITS signs really necessary? I'd nix them.

I mean, it isnt like GDOT/SRTA just decided, hey, you know what, lets throw up another assembly that has no purpose. as ran pointed out, it is useful for people who use the lanes who may have forgotten that you need to get out of the lanes now to get on say, Jimmy Carter.

and if i am in the general purpose lanes and I see the cost to drive the length of the 85 express lanes towards SC is 30 cents or anything under a dollar really, you bet your ass I am switching to the express lanes. 


Without those signs, how does express lane traffic know where to exit the express lane?

Edit

Regarding the price signs, they are visible to the general lanes because the price is information that drivers use to decide whether or not to use the express lane

[architect77]

When it's just a lane demarked from the general purpose lanes, are the LOCAL EXITS signs really necessary? I'd nix them.

Without those signs, how does express lane traffic know where to exit the express lane?

Edit

Regarding the price signs, they are visible to the general lanes because the price is information that drivers use to decide whether or not to use the express lane

Even though we have usually wide freeways, drivers are expected to be able to see the elevated exit signs on the right shoulder.

So why duplicate the same sign on the left which of course is done with a different non-matching type size?

Smaller signs with big letters indicating entrance and exit spots for the express lane would be sufficient.

The pricing sign is way too big in my opinion.

If all Express Lane signage was grouped together more to the left over the actual lane I think it would be more accurate in the hierarchy of what you're suppoded to be reading and interpreting as you drive.

The reason the restricted lanes are 14 hours a day is because US drivers have problems reading and understanding rush hour time periods.

or everyone's safety they sort of dumb it down according to the lowest common denominator.

I think streamlining and reducing the amount of signage and not making the Express Lane info overpower everything else would be helpful and more attractive.

[sprjus4]

Even though we have usually wide freeways, drivers are expected to be able to see the elevated exit signs on the right shoulder.

So why duplicate the same sign on the left which of course is done with a different non-matching type size?

Umm... because entry / exit points from the Express Lanes are different from the regular exits?

You need to get out of the Express Lanes at least 1-2 miles prior to your actual interchange off the mainline, in order to safely switch lanes to the right... especially on a "wide freeway".

[Tom958]

It's been under development for a decade, but I just found out about this plan for GA 9-South Atlanta Street in Roswell. It'll

widen the road from three lanes to four from the Chattahoochee to downtown, eliminating the reversible lane

trench Azalea Drive and Riverside Road under GA 9 and provide a one-quadrant interchange instead of the current intersection

add two roundabouts on South Atlanta Street

and build a new bike-ped bridge across the Chattahoochee.

There's some other stuff on the south side of the river, but it's not as exciting.

Per this AJC article, the cost is estimated at $10 million, which seems ridiculously optimistic. GDOT submitted a BUILD grant application in May of 2020 for Federal funds for project construction, but it wasn't selected for funding by USDOT. Hopefully something will come together in the near future.

[architect77]

Even though we have usually wide freeways, drivers are expected to be able to see the elevated exit signs on the right shoulder.

So why duplicate the same sign on the left which of course is done with a different non-matching type size?

Umm... because entry / exit points from the Express Lanes are different from the regular exits?

You need to get out of the Express Lanes at least 1-2 miles prior to your actual interchange off the mainline, in order to safely switch lanes to the right... especially on a "wide freeway".

That's a valid point, and you are correctabout the LOCAL EXIT signs being about .5-1 mile in advance of the regular 1 mile EXIT signs.

But this is what I think would look good for the Express Lane signage, over the lane itself, center median posts...

Or something similar.

The photo is somewhere in Hawaii. I remember the visual from seeing it many years ago.

left by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr

[Tom958]

This defies the laws of gravity.

I'd forgotten about it, but originally there were three-tube guardrails on the railroad bridge, even though by the time it was built in the mid eighties, GDOT had stopped using them. They were a generation older than the ones used into the seventies.

[architect77]

Good point, I also forgot how bad the bottleneck is from 285 west to 85 south (Airport/warehouse and traffic to the southwest suburbs). One lane to get from 285 west to 85 southbound isn't going to cut it. This also should have been addressed over a decade ago

I don't see much problem with capacity there, and those of us who are in the know can bypass that ramp by taking the Old National Highway-South Fulton Parkway exit and the subsequent loop ramp to 85 south. Fun fact: for the opposite movement coming northbound, Wanda Waze always tells me to use the CD.

However, the weaving section on 285 between Riverdale Road and 85 is too short, and I don't see much of a way to deal with it due to the close proximity of the CD road terminals to the west. The obvious solution would be to eliminate access from Riverdale Road to westbound 285 and force traffic to remain on Riverdale Road to 85, or to make its way to the Old National Highway interchange instead. FHWA wouldn't be happy with that.

I would think that trucks would be the biggest customer of managed lanes along 285's top end. A higher fee for trucks would bring in more revenue for the state, but I realize that if the sometimes elevated lanes had some steep inclines and declines like 75's express lanes supposedly do (which prevent traveling at high speeds on the tollercoaster) that it would present a problem for heavily-loaded trucks.

Regardless I believe enough people will use the express lanes on 285 to ease the general purpose lanes enoigh to help freight get through Georgia's only major corridor for [East-coast to West] freight movement.

Thru trucks on I-20 wouldn't be on the top end. Using the south side of I-285 is shorter and has much less traffic.

The truck traffic on the top end is either local, or is going between e.g. I-85 on the north and I-20 on the west, etc

Trucks queue for up to 10 miles on 85 Southbound to 285 West top end to 20 West every weekday.

I doubt most from the NE states would take 285 East down to 20 through the main part of town to reach Atlanta.

Line of trucks in opposite direction waiting to transition to 285----miles and miles of trucks.

IMG_0324 by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr

[Tomahawkin]

The 285 WB To SR 400 SB ramp/flyover will open late this month. IIRC didn't construction on this interchange start in 2014? This project could possibly not be finished til 2024, making this a 10 year project IIRC?

[Georgia]

February 2017 but 2014 was close

[Tom958]

GDOT is holding a "virtual public hearing" for the I-20 east-I-285 interchange project, "in accordance with O.C.G.A. Section 32-2-80."

https://0013915.scoutfeedback.com/

The presentation consists of e-brochures from each of the three competing project teams. As a member of the public and of the target audience for this effort, I found the presentation to be pretty impenetrable, and I don't understand how I can offer any relevant input.

However, I found one item of interest: Two of the three teams propose to eliminate the fourth level of the interchange by routing the westbound 20-to-westbound 285 ramp under the 285 mainline rather than over via a lengthy flyover. The third team pointedly did not, and included a rendering of the fourth-level flyover in their presentation.

[architect77]

GDOT is holding a "virtual public hearing" for the I-20 east-I-285 interchange project, "in accordance with O.C.G.A. Section 32-2-80."

https://0013915.scoutfeedback.com/

The presentation consists of e-brochures from each of the three competing project teams. As a member of the public and of the target audience for this effort, I found the presentation to be pretty impenetrable, and I don't understand how I can offer any relevant input.

However, I found one item of interest: Two of the three teams propose to eliminate the fourth level of the interchange by routing the westbound 20-to-westbound 285 ramp under the 285 mainline rather than over via a lengthy flyover. The third team pointedly did not, and included a rendering of the fourth-level flyover in their presentation.

When I attended the first meetings for the East 285 Express Lanes, the one thing I hated and complained about was that two of the rebuilt mainline lanes would only be 11' wide.

When you're building for the next 50 years, that's awful. It's what makes I-85 through Gwinnett an unpleasant stressful drive (2 inner lanes are only 11' wide) unlike before the HOV lane was painted into existence. It used to be 5 wide, luxurious lanes and the difference from now is significant.

[Tomahawkin]

The 85 express lanes in Gwinnett are dangerous, IMO because they are so narrow with little shoulder. They should have put up sticks in the areas where single person traffic from the main lanes can't weave in and out of them like they have in Florida and California