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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 1563 times)

Chris

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Ukraine
« on: March 02, 2022, 11:41:11 AM »

There has been considerable damage to the Ukrainian road infrastructure during the Russian invasion. This kind of damage to roads has not been seen in Europe since 1945.

As of this writing, the invasion is underway for a week, most bridges have been blown up by the Ukrainian army to slow the Russian advance to major cities. The documentation of destroyed infrastructure on Twitter has been much more detailed than in most other wars.

Blowing up road bridges has been particularly concentrated in the central northern regions, especially in Chernihiv and Kyiv oblasts, less so in the south (as of this post). However the Ukrainian army has started to blow up railway bridges in southern Ukraine. Several bridges have also been blown up in Kharkiv oblast.

As of this post, no Dnieper Bridge or dam from Kyiv south has been destroyed.

I've been able to geolocate all but one bridge.

M-02 bridge over Seym River in Baturyn destroyed (Chernihiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3394801,32.9080183,597m/data=!3m1!1e3


R-30 bridge over Irpin River between Kiev and Irpin destroyed (Kiev Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4911141,30.2596918,304m/data=!3m1!1e3


R-07 bridge over railroad destroyed in Kupiansk (Kharkiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.7093052,37.6094084,238m/data=!3m1!1e3


R-79 bridge over Oskil River blown up in Senkove (Kharkiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.5269663,37.6919423,451m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496943186597617671

Furthermore, heavy fighting was reported at the Antonovsky Bridge (M-14) over the Dnieper River near Kherson. The bridge has not been damaged significantly. Russian forces captured the hydroelectric dam of R-47 near Nova Khakova as well.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.669909,32.7240687,2779m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497120639903092736

Bridge of R-69 over the Dnieper Canal near the Kiev Dam destroyed (Kiev Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5843327,30.5427811,371m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497138623820357635

Border bridge of R-56 across the Dnieper at the Belarusian border destroyed (Chernihiv Oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.394973,30.6455273,1032m/data=!3m1!1e3


Bridge of R-12 over the Snov River east of Chernihiv. The other bridge was already decommissioned.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5583497,31.5495953,374m/data=!3m1!1e3


The M-06 bridge across the Irpin River near Stoyanka, just outside of Kiev, has been blown up. This is the main route from Kiev to Western Ukraine, significantly limiting traffic and evacuation from Kiev.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4470501,30.2350051,221m/data=!3m1!1e3



The Inhulsky Bridge of M-14 at Mykolaiv. This is a four lane drawbridge, footage showed that the bridge was raised. This is not the main bridge to Odessa, but to the north.
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9797013,31.9906028,251m/data=!3m1!1e3


Bridge of R-66 at Troitske (Luhansk oblast)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.9183129,38.2943849,194m/data=!3m1!1e3


The large four lane bridge of M-01 over the Desna River in Chernihiv has been blown up. It's part of the Chernihiv bypass.
Location: Google Maps


I could not localize this bridge. Was mentioned to be a pedestrian bridge in Chernihiv, but it is quite large and a different type than the pedestrian bridge over the Desna there.


A bridge of R-06 near Nova Odesa (Mykolaiv oblast)
location: Google Maps


Bridge of M-07 between Kiev and Irpin. This looks like it was bombed, not intentionally blown up.
location: Google Maps


A bridge of a local road at Sartana near Mariupol
location: Google Maps

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 05:42:33 PM »

Those pictures are heartbreaking from a nonpartisan perspective of destroying perfectly useful infrastructure. I will, as moderator, request that ALL DISCUSSION pertain only to the infrastructure and that there is NO DISCUSSION OF THE CONFLICT ITSELF. Thank you.

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 06:40:16 PM »

Any ideas as to how much of this infrastructure was built post-independence versus during Soviet occupation?
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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2022, 07:13:43 PM »

Ukravtodor (the Ukraine DOT) has been urging local authorities to assist them in removing guide signs, as the Russians seem to display a lack of knowledge of Ukrainian geography. A Photoshopped image they posted to their official Facebook page has gone viral:



Translation:
Top line: FUCK OFF
Middle line: AGAIN FUCK OFF
Bottom line: FUCK OFF BACK TO RUSSIA

Translation of the original image caption:

Quote from: Ukravtodor
[in Ukrainian] We are dismantling road signs on all roads of the country. Priority # 1 - signs, names of settlements. We're passing the collected signs to local authorities and road workers.

The enemy has a pathetic connection, they do not focus on the terrain. Let's help them go straight to hell.

Ukravtodor calls on all road organizations, territorial communities, and local governments to immediately begin dismantling nearby road signs.

[in Russian] FUCK YOU

...I have a feeling that's not something KYTC would let H.B. Elkins get away with posting. :-D
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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2022, 10:12:54 PM »

From another thread:

Ukrainians have covered the destinations on this motorway sign and have replaced them all with "The Hague":



Source:

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2022, 03:50:23 AM »

Any ideas as to how much of this infrastructure was built post-independence versus during Soviet occupation?

Most of it would date to Soviet times. Contrary to popular belief of a 'railway only' policy in the USSR, they actually invested substantially in the road network, but generally a few decades later than in the west.

You can see the history of Ukraine by looking at the road network. The west was historically ruled by Poland and Hungary-Austria. They developed a dense and more organic network of roads. The east was ruled by the Russian Empire, which did not invest in roads until after World War II, there, roads are typically straighter and often bypass the settlements. So the road network in western Ukraine is more similar to Central Europe, whereas the road network in eastern Ukraine is more similar to Russia.

Ukraine has seen only limited investment in its road network after independence. Not much happened during the 1990s and most roads were in poor condition by the early 2000s. They went on a road rehabilitation programme from 2007-2012 in anticipation of the Euro 2012 soccer tournament, which was co-hosted by Ukraine. Current president Zelensky went on a 'Big Construction' (Bigbud) programme to modernize the country's infrastructure. This has had real impact on the quality of Ukrainian road infrastructure, which is usually assessed to be one of the worst in Europe. However three decades of neglect is not repaired in a few years.

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2022, 07:08:39 AM »

When I was in college with a major in international studies and a focus on Russia, I was taught by a bunch of professors that were former U.S. intelligence community analysts/agents and the like.  One of them in particular loved bashing Russia on its lack of a real highway system, pointing out that Moscow and Saint Petersburg were connected by a two-lane road for decades (college was in the later 1990s for me).  Not very much later, when I learned a more comprehensive view of Russia's infrastructure -- along with a deeper history of U.S. intelligence efforts -- it was evident that this was only one exanple where our intelligence community inappropriately viewed Russia through an American lens and thus hampered their abilities.
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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 04:12:38 PM »

The rate of bridge destruction has slowed considerably over the past 5-7 days, presumably due to the slow Russian advance.

However some more bridges were destroyed since early March, mostly on secondary territorial roads (T-roads):

Road T-1508 near Kalynivka, just outside of Mykolaiv. Blown up with a Russian tank on top of it.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.033991,32.2182175,199m/data=!3m1!1e3


The bridge of N-21 over the Severskyi Donets River near Shchastia has been blown up. This bridge was a military checkpoint since the original War in Donbass in 2014. It's not far north of Luhansk.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.7303718,39.2567037,472m/data=!3m1!1e3




The bridge of road T-2104 over the Severskyi Donets in Staryj Saltiv (40 km east of Kharkiv) has been blown up. (footage)
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.07778,36.8114,1377m/data=!3m1!1e3


The bridge of road T-2114 in Dvorichna has been blown up (100 km east of Kharkiv).

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.8550251,37.6825421,336m/data=!3m1!1e3


The bridge of road T-0608 over the Irsha River has been blown up or bombarded in Malyn (Zhytomyr oblast).

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.7627596,29.2393023,302m/data=!3m1!1e3

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 07:22:01 PM »

There has been considerable damage to the Ukrainian road infrastructure during the Russian invasion. This kind of damage to roads has not been seen in Europe since 1945.
So this level of destruction exceeds that of Serbia's attacks on Slovenia, Croation, Bosnia, and Kosovo during the Yugoslavian War of the 1990's?

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Chris

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Re: Ukraine: wartime destruction of road infrastructure
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 03:03:29 AM »

Most of the destruction to roads and bridges during the Yugoslav wars was the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999, where they destroyed several Danube bridges.

However in Ukraine it's taking place over a vastly larger front.

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Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2022, 01:42:59 PM »

[This post and subsequent were split off from a thread in the Sports forum of all places. -S.]

the MLS

Not grammatically correct, and few people would make the mistake of using "the MLB".
Unfortunately, “the MLB” is a phrase that’s growing in use. I suspect “the MLS” is too.

That's a function of using initialisms as words, because emelbee or emelless are not yet words.

Unless you're Ukraine, it's time to get over it.
The Ukraine.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 04:57:22 AM by Scott5114 »
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Scott5114

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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2022, 06:24:52 PM »

the MLS

Not grammatically correct, and few people would make the mistake of using "the MLB".
Unfortunately, “the MLB” is a phrase that’s growing in use. I suspect “the MLS” is too.

That's a function of using initialisms as words, because emelbee or emelless are not yet words.

Unless you're Ukraine, it's time to get over it.
The Ukraine.

"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...

A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 06:30:05 PM by Scott5114 »
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2022, 09:30:36 AM »

"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...

A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?

And I suppose there's no negative connotation to a certain other European nation being called "the Lowlands".
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2022, 06:01:15 PM »

"The Ukraine" rankles Ukrainians because the name "Ukraine" basically means "borderlands". To them, calling them "the Ukraine" makes it sound like they're merely the borderlands region to a certain larger country that they used to be a part of, and they aren't a real country in their own right. Understandably, they don't like that, especially when as of this moment they are literally fighting a war against said larger country who argues they aren't a real country in their own right...

A shitty analogue because there's not the history of ill will between the two that there is between Ukraine and its neighbor, but the same sort of linguistic weirdness is present between "New Jersey" and "the new Jersey". Notice how much more dismissive and unimportant the second one feels?

And I suppose there's no negative connotation to a certain other European nation being called "the Lowlands".

Well, it's an accurate description, at least, as a quarter of the place is below sea level, and about half of it is no more than one meter above sea level. But in any case, the government of the Netherlands refers to it as "the Netherlands" in their own official English-language communications, so they seem to have no problem with it, whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2022, 06:10:38 PM »

... whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo.  And, frankly, it's kind of annoying when people get upset when people call their land the same thing they've always called it, especially for reasons that aren't obvious.  The Ivory Coast, Burma, Bombay, Swaziland, the Sears Tower, the artist formerly and now once again known as Prince, etc, etc...

And now I'm waiting for West Virginia to start throwing a fit that their name makes them seem less important than Regular Virginia.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2022, 07:44:38 PM »

... whereas the government of Ukraine has specifically asked people not to do that.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo.  And, frankly, it's kind of annoying when people get upset when people call their land the same thing they've always called it, especially for reasons that aren't obvious.  The Ivory Coast, Burma, Bombay, Swaziland, the Sears Tower, the artist formerly and now once again known as Prince, etc, etc...

It's not really an apples-to-apples because the Dutch haven't spent the last 30 years trying to distance themselves from a prior colonial overlord, which is what a lot of Ukraine's actions in this regard are geared toward - Ukraine's government spent that same 30 years asking not to be called "the Ukraine" also asking English speakers to stop using "Kiev" to refer to their capital city before most people listened.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2022, 08:53:58 PM »

It's not really an apples-to-apples because the Dutch haven't spent the last 30 years trying to distance themselves from a prior colonial overlord, which is what a lot of Ukraine's actions in this regard are geared toward - Ukraine's government spent that same 30 years asking not to be called "the Ukraine" also asking English speakers to stop using "Kiev" to refer to their capital city before most people listened.

So I guess my point is that such is Ukraine's prerogative, but that doesn't make it everyone else's prerogative.

I mean, Joe Schmoe doesn't really care one way or the other if Ukraine is trying to distance itself from a prior colonial overlord.  Until such time as the country changes its name to something completely different, then Joe Schmoe is just going to call it what he and his parents have always called it.  And even then, if it were to change its name to something completely different, it would naturally take some time or even an entire generation for people on the other side of the world to naturally make the switch.

For example, I don't know with certainty if it's preferable to say "Yukon" or "The Yukon", "Seychelles" or "The Seychelles", "Congo" or "The Congo", "Maldives" or "The Maldives".  And, unless I have an active interest in the culture of that place, I'm not likely to really care all that much—whether their ambassador has made an official statement about it or not.  Considering that I'm much more interested in foreign cultures than most people, then, I find it exceedingly unlikely that most people care one tiny bit whether Ukranians prefer "Ukraine" or "The Ukraine".  I imagine that, if they've taken any interest in the topic at all, it's taken a war to even bring it to their attention.  In fact, I'd warrant a further guess that the majority of people reading this very thread had no clue until this year that we're supposed to be saying "Ukraine" instead of "The Ukraine".

Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2022, 08:55:30 PM »



And now I'm waiting for West Virginia to start throwing a fit that their name makes them seem less important than Regular Virginia.

I assume you saw a week or two ago when a contestant on Jeopardy referred to "Regular Virginia" and Ken Jennings suggested "Original Recipe Virginia."
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2022, 09:24:28 PM »

Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.

In my experience, the average people I know would respond to an explanation like the one I gave with "Huh, didn't know that. They really don't like being called that?" "Nope." "Guess I won't call them that then." And then they don't call them that anymore.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2022, 09:32:50 PM »


Having said all that, I can't really bring myself to fault the average someone for referring to a place by an obsolete name.

In my experience, the average people I know would respond to an explanation like the one I gave with "Huh, didn't know that. They really don't like being called that?" "Nope." "Guess I won't call them that then." And then they don't call them that anymore.

Well, as I said...

Unfortunately, I'm guessing that a large majority of the world's population didn't get that memo.

At least, not until the last few weeks, in the case of Ukraine.  And, even then, I haven't heard a single news segment informing me not to say "The Ukraine".
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2022, 10:14:49 PM »

I'm not sure how we even got on the subject of Ukraine in a sports thread but...

I actually haven't even heard "the Ukraine" in the past few weeks. Now that I think about it, I guess I have heard that in the past, but since the current crisis began, I've only ever heard and said just plain Ukraine.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2022, 10:16:30 PM »

I'm not sure how we even got on the subject of Ukraine in a sports thread but...

I actually haven't even heard "the Ukraine" in the past few weeks. Now that I think about it, I guess I have heard that in the past, but since the current crisis began, I've only ever heard and said just plain Ukraine.

I mostly only said "Ukraine" since I was a kid because I thought the "the" was stupid and unnecessary, long before I learned there was a political headache involved.
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2022, 10:25:47 PM »

Since we're on the subject...Ukraine has one of the best-designed border signs I've seen.



How many state welcome signs do you know of that can work in the state seal, the flag, and the name of the state in two different languages, without ending up a cluttered mess?
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Re: Re: Minor things that annoy you-sports edition
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2022, 11:20:28 PM »

Since we're on the subject...Ukraine has one of the best-designed border signs I've seen.



How many state welcome signs do you know of that can work in the state seal, the flag, and the name of the state in two different languages, without ending up a cluttered mess?
This easily wins the thread, and for good reason.
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