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Dumbest city limits

Started by kirbykart, October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM

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kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


elsmere241

Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:37:52 AM
Neighboring cities would be smart to reach agreements with each other to set future boundaries. I know this happens in Texas, where state law provides for "extraterritorial jurisdiction" for unincorporated areas outside city limits. Good fences make good neighbors.

Same thing in North Carolina.  When I lived in Apex, it was annexing piecemeal within their ETJ, part of which was based on an agreement with Cary over who would annex what.  IIRC, some of the other agreements are based on where the water mains are.

silverback1065

I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.

Flint1979

Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.

kphoger

How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park?  Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Flint1979

Quote from: kphoger on October 07, 2022, 12:30:01 PM
How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park?  Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
That one isn't an understatement either and I was thinking of it because I knew how big Anchorage is in area. But Alaska is so huge that I would expect it's largest city to cover a vast area. Juneau is crazy like that too. It's just strange seeing cities that are the roughly the same size in area as Michigan's largest county in land area (Marquette). Keweenaw is the largest but most of it is submerged by Lake Superior.

silverback1065

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.

jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.

Flint1979

Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.

jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.
Yeah none of those make much sense to me. Michigan doesn't have any cities like that so it always seems strange to me when I'm entering one of those counties and I'm actually in the city even though it feels nothing like the city.

vdeane

Quote from: kphoger on October 07, 2022, 12:30:01 PM
How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park?  Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
Wow.  That is bigger than the entire state of Rhode Island.  By a lot.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Avalanchez71


kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 03:38:06 PM

Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
I get wanting city limits to be continuous, but why did Marion want to annex that area to the southeast in the first place if it was so far away?

Here's your answer:

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 09, 2018, 04:00:41 PM
The City of Marion purchased all the land around there to dam up the Creek for a new water reservoir.  The permit was eventually denied but they are still holding all of the land.

https://www.fws.gov/FieldNotes/regmap.cfm?arskey=21944

http://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/20171229/marion-wraps-up-purchase-of-sugar-creek-started-in-1990s


Quote from: Avalanchez71 on October 07, 2022, 02:40:33 PM
I believe with Marion, IL, that the city anticipated development in the area due to the lake and they annexed that area.

See above.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Mr_Northside

In North Central PA (Elk County), the (formerly) borough of St. Mary's annexed (or whatever term is best for what it achieved) the neighboring township.

It did create the 2nd largest city in the state of Pennsylvania by size (square mileage/acreage/whatever).   It is, of course, nowhere near the 2nd largest in terms of population (maybe if you counted bear & deer)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Marys,_Pennsylvania
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

skluth

Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.

jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.

I don't think that's been a problem with the cities in SE Virginia. Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Suffolk, and Newport News all annexed/consolidated with their counties (Princess Anne, Norfolk, Nansemond, and Warwick) and have all been better for it. The metro population has leveled off some but it's mostly the old urban cores that have been hurting and those are in Norfolk, Hampton, and Portsmouth.

bandit957

I think the Census Bureau's city boundaries aren't always perfectly accurate. They're close, and they might be the most accurate boundaries we can find. But I think sometimes they're off by a tiny bit, especially when they show cities with tiny exclaves in states that do not allow exclaves.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

dvferyance

Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.

hotdogPi

Any city that looks like Swiss cheese or has a "wall" in any form is ridiculous by New England standards.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Avalanchez71

Quote from: 1 on October 07, 2022, 08:17:55 PM
Any city that looks like Swiss cheese or has a "wall" in any form is ridiculous by New England standards.

Cities in other environs just don't work in the same way as New England.  In Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, most of New Hampshire and Vermont, every square inch of territory is incorporated as a municipality.  Whether it be charted as a town or city.  Therefore with that type of environment there is no opportunity for swiss cheese annexations without extreme circumstances.  The aforementioned states still have annexation opportunities, but nothing like a state that has unincorporated territory to consider.

Flint1979

Quote from: dvferyance on October 07, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Those cities are pretty much maxed out as far as annexing land goes. Detroit for example is surrounded by cities and and also has Redford Township to the west which they can't annex anymore of. This is why Hamtramck and Highland Park are completely surrounded by Detroit's city limits.

on_wisconsin

#68
The City of Madison's western boundary could be considered in the "swiss cheese" category. Especially, for a core city, its size: https://goo.gl/maps/RVx86SQHpt3Nsm45A
(I believe there are not any township-city merger agreements on the west side, unlike Madtown's east and south limits.)
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

mgk920

IMHO, the worst example of an 'underbound' city that I know of is not in the USA, but  the City of London, England (UK).The actual 'city' covers a microscopic part of its urbanized metro area, with the rest being suburbs of some sort or another.

In the USA, cities like that include York and State College, PA.

To me, the best part of a city's corporate limits covering all the city's urbanized area (and then some) is that everyone in the area will have a say in how it is governed at the local level, being able to vote in elections for mayor and city council.

Mike

kirbykart

#70
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
More coming soon!
Here you are!

Saranac Lake, NY has a strange extension to the northeast. You might think this is to get the Water Plant in village limits, but the extension doesn't even encompass the plant!

And here's Shelby, Montana. Presented without further comment.




zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.

I think the futuristic baggage system that never worked, should be reactivated as a roller-coaster.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: Rothman on October 05, 2022, 08:51:35 PM
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
Broomfield, too.

Broomfield, before it became a city/county, was in 4 different counties. A really small piece of it was in Weld county, and they had to drive to Greeley to do car registration and such.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

Flint1979

Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.

FightingIrish

Quote from: dvferyance on October 07, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Minneapolis, Cleveland, and even Atlanta are actually smaller than one would expect, due to land area. But they all are the focal hubs of very big metropolitan areas.

Columbus, Indianapolis and Jacksonville are examples of cities that grew massively due to annexing neighboring suburbs and accumulating lots of square footage. I'm sure both Columbus and Jacksonville pride themselves on being the most populous cities of their own states, but it's quite easier when there's plenty of land to play with. However, suburbs are factored in to the size of metropolitan areas.

As for Detroit, they've got plenty of land. However, decades ago, they threw all their eggs into the auto industry bucket. They got huge! But, when the car industry crashed, the people left. As a result, Detroit has only a fraction of their peak population and a ton of deserted land that they don't know what to do with.



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