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Should Button Copy Signs Come Back?

Started by Roadmaestro95, April 23, 2012, 08:00:29 PM

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Should the states bring back signage that has button copy letters or should they not?

Yes! Bring back the old-school button copy!
No...keep the signs as is.
Something other than this? (Give opinions below)

Henry

The button-copy signs were a stroke of genius back in the day, but given the improved technology that has improved the signs' legibility over the years, I really don't see any reason to bring them back.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!


jbnv

Whatever happened to "electronic ink? How come we aren't seeing any of that on road signs?
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silverback1065

HELL NO then all signs would be a disaster like on California's Freeways.  Can't see shit and they shine black! 

StogieGuy7

Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades. 

csw

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.
please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about

renegade

Quote from: csw on September 09, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.
please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about
That's about how long reflective signs  last in my neck of the woods.  They are replaced about every 5-10 years.

To answer the OP:  No, I would not want to go back to button copy.  Fully reflective signs are much easier to read.
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

tolbs17

Quote from: renegade on September 09, 2019, 09:31:41 PM
Quote from: csw on September 09, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.
please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about
That's about how long reflective signs  last in my neck of the woods.  They are replaced about every 5-10 years.

To answer the OP:  No, I would not want to go back to button copy.  Fully reflective signs are much easier to read.
Agree with you. They are easier to read and it's not as childish when looking at the buttons. Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6888696,-77.9679122,3a,39.9y,311.94h,96.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1gbywwdcJh72EVJDche9Fg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If you look closely, it has a bottom frame and those lights.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.834381,-78.299955,3a,79.1y,287.92h,94.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCQQwfTLYp1yAdF-jx_H16Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This one doesn't have it. Any suggestions? I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

roadfro

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 09, 2019, 10:50:44 PM
Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?
<...>
I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

Within the past 10-15 or so years, newer reflective sheeting styles have been introduced that reflects a lot more of the light from headlights, such that external lighting sources are not necessary to provide the same level of illumination at night. Given this technological advancement, many agencies are now using this sheeting style for signs and not installing/removing sign lighting in order to save money on associated operation & maintenance costs.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Mergingtraffic

This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?

I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

silverback1065

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?



that sign is hot garbage, try reading that going 70 mph on the freeway.  nope not gonna happen.  current signs will shine green and in full context.  only problem with them is in the winter moisture gets on them and makes them hard to read. button copies are beautiful signs meant for a museum, not the road anymore.

tolbs17

Yeah, those button copy signs are a bye-bye.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?



Any remaining button copy signs are in the 99.9th percentile of longevity. This sign's replacement will probably not last 50 years, but there will be a few signs around the country being installed today that will last until at least 2069.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

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formulanone

#62
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 10, 2019, 09:07:00 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?



that sign is hot garbage, try reading that going 70 mph on the freeway. 

Yeah, at highway speeds, an unfamiliar sign won't be as readable from a greater distance. Pretty sure that T-intersection isn't designed for 70 mph, anyhow.

Quote from: 1 on September 11, 2019, 06:16:40 AM
Any remaining button copy signs are in the 99.9th percentile of longevity. This sign's replacement will probably not last 50 years, but there will be a few signs around the country being installed today that will last until at least 2069.

Not sure how many signs with modern sheeting are going to hold up more than 20 years without considerable fading and tearing (there may be a few in areas with limited sunlight exposure which might last longer), as there are many 10-year-old signs that can't last that long.

I think those with reflective metal panels and other types of demountable copy (no buttons) may last several decades, and have proven to do so. But the expense is greater, and they're not as widely-used anymore.

tolbs17

#63
I found two in Asheville here. Removed and replaced with sheeting by now, I'm pretty sure those were the last ones still standing that have been replaced then.

I know the letter y is longer, the g, and t are different as well.

Scott5114

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:32:55 PM
I know the letter y is longer, the g, and t are different as well.

Yeah, that's something I haven't seen discussed on here that often–there were subtle differences in the letterforms the major button copy vendors used compared to the standard fonts (I'm guessing to make the letterforms fit reflectors of a given size). The digits were also subtly different (I remember the 2 had a noticeable little hump in the back, and the 5 was more closed-up than the standard font).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

tolbs17

Quote from: roadfro on September 10, 2019, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 09, 2019, 10:50:44 PM
Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?
<...>
I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

Within the past 10-15 or so years, newer reflective sheeting styles have been introduced that reflects a lot more of the light from headlights, such that external lighting sources are not necessary to provide the same level of illumination at night. Given this technological advancement, many agencies are now using this sheeting style for signs and not installing/removing sign lighting in order to save money on associated operation & maintenance costs.
Well, for this one, they are replacing the lighting on all these highways listed above. Nothing in this document states that the signs would be replaced and this is rare of how they are doing that here.

Here are examples that the sign lighting will be replaced: https://goo.gl/maps/fxSDB8bMrqz1xgYy9

https://goo.gl/maps/MxHULsuHj2bTvb3G9 (US-70 and I-85 business will get removed so signs here will most likely be replaced instead of the lighting).

https://connect.ncdot.gov/letting/Division%207%20Letting/11-04-2021/D7POC372%20Proposal.pdf

roadman65

Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

kphoger

It would solve this problem:  your headlights illuminate a sign, except the green background reflects much better than the legend, such that the legend appears black on a green background until your right up on the sign–then, for just a split-second, it looks the way it should.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vtk

Button copy or not, "dark"-colored backgrounds should be less reflective than the legend. Uniform retroreflectivity is a foolish requirement.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

Scott5114

Quote from: vtk on October 17, 2022, 12:35:46 PM
Button copy or not, "dark"-colored backgrounds should be less reflective than the legend. Uniform retroreflectivity is a foolish requirement.

I think the idea FHWA is working with is that people need to be able to see the color of the background.

I feel like the easiest way of handling that would be to have a, say, 3" retroreflective green border inset from the 3" white one. Then have just the legend reflective on non-reflective green.

Or just use engineer grade background and high-intensity legend. That'd be cheaper than what we're doing now, anyway.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

JoePCool14

One thing that I feel needs to be addressed is the rate at which modern BGS degrade. Now this doesn't apply to every jurisdiction, but some definitely have issues with their signs lasting barely half a decade before the start of peeling. By the decade mark, several elements are peeling or worn out. ISTHA and ODOT (Oklahoma) seem to be big offenders in this department. I was on I-90 heading out to Rockford and I saw one of the TOLL banners on one of the signs flapping about in the wind. The sign is not even 10 years old.

Fading is also an issue in some cases, but that's not an issue exclusive to newer signs.

Meanwhile, classic button copy signs can last for several decades. This is getting into the engineering of the panels but what does a DOT like WisDOT do that ISTHA doesn't? I want to say it's because WisDOT still uses some form of demountable elements, whereas ISTHA just uses decals.

Either way, I think a more "sustainable" option should be found so signs can last and look good for longer.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hbelkins

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 18, 2022, 09:17:34 AM
One thing that I feel needs to be addressed is the rate at which modern BGS degrade. Now this doesn't apply to every jurisdiction, but some definitely have issues with their signs lasting barely half a decade before the start of peeling. By the decade mark, several elements are peeling or worn out. ISTHA and ODOT (Oklahoma) seem to be big offenders in this department. I was on I-90 heading out to Rockford and I saw one of the TOLL banners on one of the signs flapping about in the wind. The sign is not even 10 years old.

Fading is also an issue in some cases, but that's not an issue exclusive to newer signs.

Meanwhile, classic button copy signs can last for several decades. This is getting into the engineering of the panels but what does a DOT like WisDOT do that ISTHA doesn't? I want to say it's because WisDOT still uses some form of demountable elements, whereas ISTHA just uses decals.

Either way, I think a more "sustainable" option should be found so signs can last and look good for longer.

On my trip last year, I saw a lot of peeling signs in Colorado and Missouri. Lettering and route markers were both peeling off guide signs along I-70. I guess that's a result of direct application vs. demountable copy.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

JoePCool14

Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
2011 – nice new signs – https://goo.gl/maps/PMrMc93M7bGcGcC46
2021 – beginning to peel – https://goo.gl/maps/LggwksdSP6id3ZTe6
3 months later – totally gone – https://goo.gl/maps/nbKVssiJL51vP6ek6

These signs, aside from the Interstate shields, actually still look pretty good. It's a relatively easy fix too: just fabricate two new shields and nail them over the old ones.

ISTHA signs on the other hand...

And it's not exclusive to BGS either.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

kphoger

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 18, 2022, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
2011 – nice new signs – https://goo.gl/maps/PMrMc93M7bGcGcC46
2021 – beginning to peel – https://goo.gl/maps/LggwksdSP6id3ZTe6
3 months later – totally gone – https://goo.gl/maps/nbKVssiJL51vP6ek6

These signs, aside from the Interstate shields, actually still look pretty good. It's a relatively easy fix too: just fabricate two new shields and nail them over the old ones.

They were recently fixed, complete with black backgrounds for many of the US Route shields.

Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2022, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: Ned Weasel on October 16, 2022, 10:36:09 AM
It still shows up sometimes, but not consistently, like here, where old-school NJDOT decided to make another Kansas cameo: https://goo.gl/maps/GgfM3MSJe3KpTgTj6

Multiple signs at that interchange recently got the New Jersey treatment.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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