AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules to ensure post quality. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart  (Read 13580 times)

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon

(Apologies for the brief story up-front.  Skip the next paragraph for the juice :))

So discovering this place has re-awakened my inner roadgeek, which left me desperate to find and accumulate any of the data I might have left.  The first step was to preserve ORoads on a server other than Angelfire's.  I somehow managed to remember my password, logged in, and saved all the files locally, which were then uploaded to historic.oroads.com for the most part as-is.  (I only needed to change where the pages were looking for style, graphics, etc. to get the pages to work.)  I also was able to find the disc I received from ODOT with the 2004 draft of the HSHO; the disc was dated August 2004, meaning I found the disc after 8 years.  But nothing compared to the cache I found today when I plugged an old hard drive into my laptop.

Among historical documents -- including a couple of route description files and a map of the 1917 Oregon highway designations -- were 11 large-scale JPGs that combined to form a full 1971 Pacific Highway #1 (Interstate 5) Straightline Chart (linky EDIT: Careful, it's 18.5MB or so!).  I found them tooling around the ODOT FTP server a few years back and I thought I'd lost them.  This document is the oldest chart I have and has some interesting characteristics:
  • The chart was originally created in October 1955, shortly before ODOT adopted a computer system.  April 1971 is the revision date.
  • Since Oregon typically increases mileposts from north to south opposite of Interstate mileage, this chart displays old mileposts in blue.
  • From start to finish, the blue mileage is 325.65 miles, a 17-mile discrepancy from the black mileage.  I know a milepost resynchronization of the blue mileage can be seen on this map, though it's not explicitly marked as such.  If I look in the morning, I'll find it -- too tired now.
  • This was one of the last straightline charts that designates US-99 as such.  Note that it appears out of nowhere north of Medford instead of starting in Ashland like present day OR-99 does.
  • It also shows US-99 crossing into Washington with I-5.  I thought that US-99 was decommissioned in Washington at least a year earlier.
I'm sure I've overlooked others.

As I'm rediscovering more old stuff, I'll post it here.  I'd also be interested in digital document swaps or donations of old straightline charts, route descriptions, planning documents, maps, photos, etc.  I plan on setting up an Oregon highway document repository at docs.oroads.com in the future.  For now, the only document I have on that server is the 1971 I-5 straightline chart.  I wanted to share it with you all so that we may take a trip down memory lane.

</cheesiness>
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

luokou

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 229
  • Age: 38
  • Last Login: November 28, 2021, 12:07:46 AM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 11:04:02 PM »

Fascinating stuff! Were you also able to find other old straight-line diagrams, and maybe some old signage specs in that ftp archive?

I remember back in the day when ylekot's Oregon Highways and Routes page suddenly disappeared, and was so elated to find ORoads as a way to get my Oregon roadgeek fix.  Always been waiting in anticipation until the next update since then... hell, I still can't wait for the next update now ;] Glad to see you're still around, dude!
Logged

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 03:09:18 AM »

Fascinating stuff! Were you also able to find other old straight-line diagrams, and maybe some old signage specs in that ftp archive?

I remember back in the day when ylekot's Oregon Highways and Routes page suddenly disappeared, and was so elated to find ORoads as a way to get my Oregon roadgeek fix.  Always been waiting in anticipation until the next update since then... hell, I still can't wait for the next update now ;] Glad to see you're still around, dude!

Ditto that.  Keep it coming!
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7249
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 01:36:57 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 11:01:50 AM »

Fascinating stuff! Were you also able to find other old straight-line diagrams, and maybe some old signage specs in that ftp archive?

Oregon DOT used to host the S-drawings (which are the signing sheets from all Oregon DOT projects done from about 1946 or so--there are around 20,000 in all) on the FTP server, where they were available for easy download.  They are still available online but only through a HTTPS interface which makes data scraping difficult.
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 06:33:29 AM »

Fascinating stuff! Were you also able to find other old straight-line diagrams, and maybe some old signage specs in that ftp archive?

Alas, no I wasn't.  These charts were shunted into a side directory close to where the Straightline Charts used to be stored on oregon.gov.  They have since been deleted, hence my sadness when I thought they were gone and unrecoverable and my elation when I found them again.  (I could kiss my past self for the foresight!)  The folder itself was labelled something specifically about this alignment, like "Hwy001_1971" or something like that.  It was the only such folder I could find.  Eventually, I hit a directory where ODOT had an index page for the directory, ending my exploration of the server.  Furthermore, I've recently been looking around on the current server, but it seems like it's basically being used as a document dump; there is no cohesive naming scheme, and some people put random documents on there in random places.  Your tax dollars at work, I suppose.

On a side note, I wish that I had downloaded and stored versions of the straightline charts that were available at the time, including the ones ODOT stored that were from 1980 to 2002.  (I could slap my past self for the lack of foresight!)  However, I am currently compiling a list of questions to bombard ODOT with, and one will be to either attach or include links to those straightline charts.  I also am planning on asking for historical straightline charts of the T.H. Banfield Freeway #56 (eventually became part of the Columbia River Highway #2/US-30/I-80N/I-84), the Portland-Salem Expressway #57 (eventually became part of Pacific Highway #1/US-99/I-5), and the Salem Freeway #65 (the proposed I-305, eventually rolled into the Salem Highway #72/OR-99E Business).  I imagine the chances that I'd find any of them would be slim-to-none, concerning the first two only existed for about 7 years apiece and the third was a located line until the project was scrapped.  One can dream, though...

I remember back in the day when ylekot's Oregon Highways and Routes page suddenly disappeared, and was so elated to find ORoads as a way to get my Oregon roadgeek fix.  Always been waiting in anticipation until the next update since then... hell, I still can't wait for the next update now ;] Glad to see you're still around, dude!

Ditto that.  Keep it coming!

Thanks for the love!

Yeah, I remember when ylekot's site went down for the count.  Quite a bit of my site took his work and repackaged it with a state-route focus, though I did add my own observations and former routings that his site did not have.  It was through his site that I learned that ODOT started numbering various random hidden state highways in 2002.  These days, my map collection, ODOT document folder, and online resource libraries are large and complete enough to compile the site again using original research, though I'd still reference his (Waybacked) site whenever possible.  Does anyone know what happened to him?  If he still is around, and he somehow managed to have a version of his site that I could use, I would host it for him somewhere on ORoads, now that I bought the domain.

In spite of the fact that I should be working on schoolwork, I have definitely been bitten by the roadgeek bug again.  I've started increasing my map collection to fill in gaps.  I've been accumulating and organizing documents for future use.  I even bought oroads.com to house my classic website and future redone site, as well as offer the documents I have to the public hosted on my own site, where they'll be less likely to up and disappear at the whim of the site I was hotlinking from.  (ODOT, I'm looking at you.)  I'm already finding a bunch of information I need to correct when I start to redesign the site, and I'm trying to think of a good database/templating structure for me to develop to make the site work more cohesively.  I also will likely make the color scheme a bit more readable this time around, though I'm not sure what.

I want the new ORoads to be more collaborative in certain ways.  I know that I will likely make the call here and on m.t.r (though it seems like it too has turned into a dump) for any Oregon-related documents that you guys might have -- with the anticipation that they will be housed in my document repository and used by me and anyone else.  I'm going to hit up ODOT for some stuff, and maybe even make a trip to the Region 1 office in Portland and the head office in Salem, though I'll be there over holiday weekends, which will likely put a damper on my plans.)  I'm thinking about good portable document scanners that I bring with me easily and connect to my laptop or thumb drive.  I'm going to include more map evolution segments and former realignments using Google Maps.

I got so many ideas that my head might explode!  However, all I ask of you all is patience.  I am only one man, and life tends to get in the way, as I've explained previously.  My last hiatus lasted 4 whole years, after all.  I do want to at least get this into a good shape that it only requires a tiny amount of maintenance to handle decommissionings, route changes, data, etc. to keep things current.  But that goal is a long ways off.  So hang in there and I'll do the best I can :)

~Jason

P.S. I'm big into embedding fonts right now, and I was hoping to use FontSquirrel to convert triskele/MikeTheActuary's Roadgeek fonts to various web-safe formats.  The licence doesn't explicitly prohibit this, but doesn't explicitly allow it either.  He seems to be notoriously hard to contact.  Does anyone have his contact info lying around so I can ask him for sure?  If I don't get him, I likely will be using them anyway, since I feel the license implies that I can do it so long as I'm not selling them to anybody.  I also will buy the old-style US Highways font from here and ask him if I can embed as well.

(And, to placate any roadgeeks upset with my last site, I will even design an "OREGON" state text that more closely matches this :))
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 11:24:22 AM »

Sounds good! Let me know what help you need.  I don't have any ODOT documents, but I'm happy to share photos, and since I travel around the state pretty extensively, I can check things out for you.  I've been making it a point to get around to some of the still-unsigned 2002 routes every couple years to check out their status.

The last I remember hearing anything from Mike Wiley was in 2006, when he posted this comment on mtr explaining why his site was no longer around:

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_thread/thread/26285cd0ca3237cd/6b34222d08c91893?lnk=gst&q=mike+wiley#6b34222d08c91893

I think someone else also offered to host his site in response to this, but I never heard any follow-up.  But if he could be talked into restoring his website, or you could get permission to use his pages and add it with your content, that would be pretty great.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 11:29:40 AM by xonhulu »
Logged

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 03:50:47 PM »

Sounds good! Let me know what help you need.  I don't have any ODOT documents, but I'm happy to share photos, and since I travel around the state pretty extensively, I can check things out for you.  I've been making it a point to get around to some of the still-unsigned 2002 routes every couple years to check out their status.

Nice!  That certainly would help.  While I'm not entirely sure about what I want right this second, my big things are:

  • What county highways continue after Oregon highways, such as at the end of OR-70 and OR-205.
  • Where the actual terminus of OR-86 is -- and what actually connects to ID-71.
  • Old highway alignments and remnants (Someone found a slew of old stone mileposts along old segments of the Dalles-California Highway #4 at MP 3, 9, 12, 18, and 19, for example.)
We can coordinate once the site is in a more solid form :)

The last I remember hearing anything from Mike Wiley was in 2006, when he posted this comment on mtr explaining why his site was no longer around:

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_thread/thread/26285cd0ca3237cd/6b34222d08c91893?lnk=gst&q=mike+wiley#6b34222d08c91893

I think someone else also offered to host his site in response to this, but I never heard any follow-up.  But if he could be talked into restoring his website, or you could get permission to use his pages and add it with your content, that would be pretty great.

I sent him this email which hasn't been bounced by Yahoo, so there's a glimmer of hope:

Quote
Mike,

Though I'm sure you may have heard my name and site discussed on m.t.r several years ago, I thought that I would formally introduce myself: My name is Jason, and I am the creator of ORoads, an Oregon roadgeek website.  First of all, I wanted to say that initially discovering your site so many years ago was the impetus for me 1.) discovering what a "roadgeek" was, 2.) realizing that I was (and still am) one, and 3.) finding that there were other roadgeeks out there with that same passion for highways.  It even inspired me to create ORoads with the same goal of documenting the history of Oregon's highways and byways, though from the perspective of posted routes as opposed to hidden highway numbers.  I even originally emulated your site design, though with a different color scheme.  Now that I have been bitten by the roadgeek bug again, I will likely move towards a different design that I started experimenting with in 2008 but never fully adopted.  Funny how life gets in the way.

Anyway, let me cut to the point.  Your site was -- and still is, thanks to archive.org -- a great resource for Oregon highways.  It is sorely missed.  As you mentioned in your "I'm still here!" m.t.r post (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/misc.transport.road/Jihc0MoyN80), you planned more than 6 years ago to eventually bring the site back.  My guess is, just like with me and ORoads, that life got busy and your interests veered elsewhere.  Totally understandable.  However, I am starting to realize that the Internet is not set in stone.  I got worried that ORoads would disappear, so I managed to remember my Angelfire password and archived my site at historic.oroads.com, an offshoot of the oroads.com domain I just purchased for a forthcoming redesign/update of ORoads.

In the spirit of cooperation and collaboration, I would like to extend to you the offer to host a version of your Oregon Highways site on ORoads for historical purposes.  I understand that it might be highly unlikely that a version of your site would live on your hard drive for a decade or longer, but I figure that it's worth a shot.  Crazier things have happened.  I want to give the roadgeeking public the opportunity to take a trip down memory lane with your site, the same way that people apparently still do with my site.  (Your comment about attending your own funeral in that m.t.r post is very apt, though mine was on the AARoads Northwest forum in a thread on OR-208.)  I will not alter your content in any way, except with a header on the homepage stating that I am hosting your site for historical reasons and for the benefit of the roadgeeking community in general.  Also, should you decide to get Oregon Highways back up and running yourself, I'll pull my version and redirect my traffic to you.

If a version of your sight has somehow survived computer crashes and dead drives for this long, please consider the offer.  At the very least, even if I get a "no, thanks" response, I still would enjoy conversing with you about Oregon's highways.  Your insight has proved inspirational and invaluable to me over the past decade and will continue to do so, so long as I'm alive and roadgeeking.

Sincerely,

~Jason of ORoads

We'll see what happens.  Fingers crossed!
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 09:32:38 PM »

Nice!  That certainly would help.  While I'm not entirely sure about what I want right this second, my big things are:

  • What county highways continue after Oregon highways, such as at the end of OR-70 and OR-205.
Good questions. 

According to a couple sources, OR 70 doesn't end at the logical location: the four-way intersection of Dairy-Bonanza Hwy, Main St, Market St, and Langell Valley Rd at the east end on Bonanza, where I took this picture:



This is from the perspective of Langell Valley Rd.  70 actually is the road to Dairy and K Falls, so I'm not sure why the shield's arrow doesn't point the same way the green blades do.  Anyway, apparently OR 70 also goes about 1 block northeast (right) on Market, to end on Central St, at least according to ODOT's Bonanza city map:  http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/docs/citymaps/Bonanza.pdf .  This seems an odd place for it to end, but ODOT's Digital Video Log seems to confirm this, and even shows an "END STATE HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE" sign on the side of the street there:

Market St continues past this and eventually becomes the Klamath County maintained Bly Mountain Cutoff Rd.

OR 205 ends at the Roaring Springs Ranch at this lonely location:

The road continuing south is Harney County Route 202, the Catlow Valley Rd, which I think actually has some county route shields along it.

Quote
  • Where the actual terminus of OR-86 is -- and what actually connects to ID-71.

OR 86 ends in Copperfield at the bridge over the Snake River.  If you look closely, you can see the ODOT Bridge Inventory sign on the right side:


The road along the west side of the river that connects to ID 71 is maintained by Idaho Power.  The roadgeek in me wishes ODOT would assume maintenance and sign it as OR 71, but the pragmatist in me realizes that's unnecessary.

The road behind me in the picture along the east side of the Snake is also maintained by Idaho Power, and winds north for a couple dozen miles before crossing Hells Canyon Dam and ending at a little Forest Service Visitor Center -- a really cool drive into the upper reaches of Hells Canyon that I highly recommend to everyone.

Quote
  • Old highway alignments and remnants (Someone found a slew of old stone mileposts along old segments of the Dalles-California Highway #4 at MP 3, 9, 12, 18, and 19, for example.)

I've always been curious about a lengthy bypassed section of the old highway just north of Willowdale that looks like it might still be drivable.  If I ever go through there in my pickup with time to kill, I might give it a look-see -- could be some more cool old mileposts or ancient signs.

Quote
I sent him this email which hasn't been bounced by Yahoo, so there's a glimmer of hope:

We'll see what happens.  Fingers crossed!

The little I corresponded with Mike left me the impression he's a pretty good guy, so I'd think he'd be interested in seeing his Oregon Highways restored to the web in some form.  Btw, I'm the Chris who posted the comment immediately before Mike's 2006 response on mtr .  Anyway, I will also cross my fingers on this.
Logged

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 03:55:59 AM »

Thanks for your response on these musings.

According to a couple sources, OR 70 doesn't end at the logical location: the four-way intersection of Dairy-Bonanza Hwy, Main St, Market St, and Langell Valley Rd at the east end on Bonanza, where I took this picture:



This is from the perspective of Langell Valley Rd.  70 actually is the road to Dairy and K Falls, so I'm not sure why the shield's arrow doesn't point the same way the green blades do.

Actually, it looks like that sign is supposed to be facing traffic entering Bonanza from Langell Valley Rd., from which OR-70 does continue more straight ahead than left.  In fact, the blades should really have their arrows pointing straight to match.  Also, though it would be technically correct, I would avoid signing OR-70 to the right on that assembly because it would confuse the motoring public, considering how soon it officially ends.  The only time I ever would do that would be if OR-70 were extended north along Bly Mountain Cutoff Rd.

Speaking of which:

Anyway, apparently OR 70 also goes about 1 block northeast (right) on Market, to end on Central St, at least according to ODOT's Bonanza city map:  http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/docs/citymaps/Bonanza.pdf .  This seems an odd place for it to end, but ODOT's Digital Video Log seems to confirm this, and even shows an "END STATE HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE" sign on the side of the street there:

Market St continues past this and eventually becomes the Klamath County maintained Bly Mountain Cutoff Rd.

I hope you don't mind that I imgur'd the images from the Digital Video Log.  Apparently ODOT doesn't like hotlinking.

Any idea what the designation of Bly Mountain Cutoff Rd. is, if any?  Does Klamath County sign any of its major routes?  If so, this one would be a good candidate, given that it carries a lot of truck traffic and has a higher AADT than OR-70 does.

It always seemed strange to me that this was signed as a primary state route (or state highway, for that matter).  Maybe all that truck traffic has something to do with it.  After all, OR-90 was signed at the outset as well, and it was less than 2 miles long.

OR 205 ends at the Roaring Springs Ranch at this lonely location:

The road continuing south is Harney County Route 202, the Catlow Valley Rd, which I think actually has some county route shields along it.

That's right, I remember reading that it was Harney County 202 somewhere (likely on Mike Wiley's site) back in the day.  I tried finding it out by using Google Street View, but IIRC the shield was too far away to make out.  Plus, Harney County likes to spray-paint the numbers of the highway in yellow stencil, which I imagine doesn't do much to increase sign longevity.

OR 86 ends in Copperfield at the bridge over the Snake River.

Right, I forgot about that.  I like how according to the sign, Oregon pretty much controls the Snake River at that point :)

Do you have any close-ups of that inventory marker?

The road along the west side of the river that connects to ID 71 is maintained by Idaho Power.  The roadgeek in me wishes ODOT would assume maintenance and sign it as OR 71, but the pragmatist in me realizes that's unnecessary.

I was likely thinking of this road when I wrote the question, seeing as how sometimes maps erroneously mark it as an extension of OR-86.

I share your view about OR-71, even down to the pragmatist conclusion that it will never be signed as such.  For the record, though, ODOT's stance on route markings is that routes don't always have to have a highway designation and vice versa, so they could just do it.  Hell, look at OR-210; so much of the Scholls Highway #143 has been relinquished that what's left would be better off re-designated as a frontage road for OR-217's various connectors.  (The same goes for hidden OR-141 around there, which I think shouldn't even have been assigned a route number, let alone kept in the highway system.)

The road behind me in the picture along the east side of the Snake is also maintained by Idaho Power, and winds north for a couple dozen miles before crossing Hells Canyon Dam and ending at a little Forest Service Visitor Center -- a really cool drive into the upper reaches of Hells Canyon that I highly recommend to everyone.

I haven't traveled too extensively in eastern Oregon/extreme west Idaho, but I've been meaning to.  That entire part of the state -- including the drive through Hells Canyon -- is on my bucket list :)

I've always been curious about a lengthy bypassed section of the old highway just north of Willowdale that looks like it might still be drivable.  If I ever go through there in my pickup with time to kill, I might give it a look-see -- could be some more cool old mileposts or ancient signs.

I created a Google Maps navigational aid map of the route for everyone's enjoyment :)

Almost all of it at least appears driveable.  It was bypassed in segments between 1955 and 1958, according to the latest HSHO.  By contrast, the Eightmile section wasn't abandoned until March 10, 1960 and it still had the stone mileposts at that time, so I'd say the chances of finding some are great, especially on the portion between Shaniko Jct. and the junction with OR-293.  In addition to those, look out for any old state ROW markers; the portions south of the Eightmile section had some.  Definitely let me know what you find... I can't wait.  I'll try to think of some others.  Perhaps the former routing of OR-27 north of Prineville might yield similar results.

The little I corresponded with Mike left me the impression he's a pretty good guy, so I'd think he'd be interested in seeing his Oregon Highways restored to the web in some form.  Btw, I'm the Chris who posted the comment immediately before Mike's 2006 response on mtr .  Anyway, I will also cross my fingers on this.

I don't doubt he's a nice guy in the slightest.  I more doubt that anything survived this long.  I work in IT, and though I'm a bit of a data packrat, quite a bit of what I had didn't survive the past 10 years for various reasons.  Most of my photos and research, for example, died in a hard drive crash awhile ago, and I had some interesting stuff.  I wish that I had made contact with Mike earlier on, but there's nothing I can do about it now.  Hopefully we can connect and I find out once-and-for-all if his site can be resurrected.

Speaking of resurrecting sites, I'm trying to make contact with Michael D. Adams, formerly of triskele.com, who created the Roadgeek 2005 series of fonts.  I want to create web embedded versions for use on ORoads, and while the usage license doesn't prohibit this, it also doesn't explicitly allow it either, so I figure that I'd ask for permission before moving forward.  I already asked Bruce Cridlebaugh, creator of USHighwaysOldStyleBCBA, if I could create a web embedded version of that font, and he said yes so long as I don't sell it or give it to other font repositories.  (I also adjusted the spacing to make the letters and symbols centered, added the middle dot symbol, fixed the original style [L] and [R] shields, and renamed the font "US Highways '26", after the year the US Highway system was created.  He was appreciative of the changes.  I asked him to host the revamped version so that others may enjoy it as well.)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 05:03:16 AM by JasonOfORoads »
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2012, 09:48:48 AM »

I hope you don't mind that I imgur'd the images from the Digital Video Log.  Apparently ODOT doesn't like hotlinking.

No problem here.  I just made a mental note to snap clearer pictures of my own next time I'm down there.  I love camping in Lava Beds NM, so I can easily talk myself into a trip down there next year.  I can check out if Bly Mountain Cutoff has a CR designation, as well.

Quote
It always seemed strange to me that this was signed as a primary state route (or state highway, for that matter).  Maybe all that truck traffic has something to do with it.  After all, OR-90 was signed at the outset as well, and it was less than 2 miles long.

I'm pretty sure the primary routes preceded the secondaries, so they must've felt the Dairy-Bonanza deserved a state route from the outset, and then just never changed the number.  It definitely is more like a secondary route.

Quote
Right, I forgot about that.  I like how according to the sign, Oregon pretty much controls the Snake River at that point :)

Do you have any close-ups of that inventory marker?

Sadly, no.  The only time I snap photos of inventory signs is on the routes that still haven't been signed, just to prove they exist.  But I've been pondering a Hells Canyon trip, so I'll probably be over there next year sometime.

In some places, ODOT has replaced these inventory signs, and they include the new route #, even though the route itself isn't otherwise signed.  Other times, they seemed confused on the route! Check these out on OR 180 and OR 194:



Apparently, someone was confused that a) 194 is an extension of OR 51 (which would make sense), and b) it's a US Hwy.  Also, they put that in the HWY blank!  On other unsigned routes, they put the hidden hwy # in the HWY blank, and put the name of the highway in the RTE section.

Quote
I created a Google Maps navigational aid map of the route for everyone's enjoyment :)

Almost all of it at least appears driveable.  It was bypassed in segments between 1955 and 1958, according to the latest HSHO.  By contrast, the Eightmile section wasn't abandoned until March 10, 1960 and it still had the stone mileposts at that time, so I'd say the chances of finding some are great, especially on the portion between Shaniko Jct. and the junction with OR-293.  In addition to those, look out for any old state ROW markers; the portions south of the Eightmile section had some.  Definitely let me know what you find... I can't wait.  I'll try to think of some others.  Perhaps the former routing of OR-27 north of Prineville might yield similar results.

Yup, that's the old road.  You can plainly see that roadbed from modern US 97 mostly from below, but the few glances of the road itself show intact pavement, which is why it piqued my curiosity.  However, it has many roadcuts, and if it hasn't been maintained rockfall might be a serious impediment to a car or truck.  Maybe I should plan to hike a segment, instead.

Your plans for ORoads all sound great.  Keep us posted here on progress.
Logged

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 12:44:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure the primary routes preceded the secondaries, so they must've felt the Dairy-Bonanza deserved a state route from the outset, and then just never changed the number.  It definitely is more like a secondary route.

Yep, primary state highways preceded secondary state highways by 14 years or so.  Most primaries were defined starting in 1917, while secondaries started being defined in 1931.  IIRC, primary and secondary state routes came in 1932 and 1935 respectively, though I don't have an official source on that.  Something to bother ODOT about.

I agree it should be both a secondary highway and route.  My guess is some political maneuvering may have come into play to define it as a primary.  The highway itself was brought into the state system in 1926, and it was signed as OR-70 by 1935 (the oldest map I have a scan of, meaning it was likely signed in 1932).

In some places, ODOT has replaced these inventory signs, and they include the new route #, even though the route itself isn't otherwise signed.  Other times, they seemed confused on the route! Check these out on OR 180 and OR 194:

*snip*

Apparently, someone was confused that a) 194 is an extension of OR 51 (which would make sense), and b) it's a US Hwy.  Also, they put that in the HWY blank!  On other unsigned routes, they put the hidden hwy # in the HWY blank, and put the name of the highway in the RTE section.

Oh ODOT... your foul-ups never cease to amaze me. My thought is: Why wasn't Highway 194 designated as an extension of OR-51?  Of course, if I had my way, this would be another highway I'd redesignate as a secondary highway and route.

My guess is that the ones with the name in the RTE section are pre-2002 (or post-2002 if no route number has been assigned yet).

Yup, that's the old road.  You can plainly see that roadbed from modern US 97 mostly from below, but the few glances of the road itself show intact pavement, which is why it piqued my curiosity.  However, it has many roadcuts, and if it hasn't been maintained rockfall might be a serious impediment to a car or truck.  Maybe I should plan to hike a segment, instead.

Yeah, please be careful and exercise sound judgment.  Your life and health are much more important than some roadgeek photos in the grand scheme of things.  Good call on hiking that one old segment instead of driving it.  The other segments, however, appear to still be maintained as county roads and also appear to be at the same elevation as current US-97, so you can probably drive them just fine.

If you were to find an old stone milepost along OR-293 or that connector road (which I believe is a frontage road for the Dalles-California Highway #4), that would be a great find.  I figure ODOT would remove stone mileposts from current state highway ROW, save for the Columbia River Highway.  However, given how slow they were to replace old-style cutout shields, anything is possible.

Your plans for ORoads all sound great.  Keep us posted here on progress.

Will do!

Still nothing from Mike Wiley or Michael D. Adams, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 12:47:19 PM by JasonOfORoads »
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

agentsteel53

  • invisible hand
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 15374
  • long live button copy!

  • Age: 40
  • Location: San Diego, CA
  • Last Login: November 21, 2016, 09:58:39 AM
    • AARoads Shield Gallery
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »


Oh ODOT... your foul-ups never cease to amaze me.

yes, like having "highways" and "routes".
Logged
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 03:55:51 PM »

yes, like having "highways" and "routes".

Hey, at least it gives me something to do on roadgeek forums, since it seems like I've had to explain this difference to others at least one billion times, give or take.  :-/
Logged

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2012, 04:03:21 PM »

I agree it should be both a secondary highway and route.  My guess is some political maneuvering may have come into play to define it as a primary.  The highway itself was brought into the state system in 1926, and it was signed as OR-70 by 1935 (the oldest map I have a scan of, meaning it was likely signed in 1932).

Sounds about right.  I also have a 1935 Hwy Map, and OR 70 is on it, too.

Quote
Oh ODOT... your foul-ups never cease to amaze me. My thought is: Why wasn't Highway 194 designated as an extension of OR-51?  Of course, if I had my way, this would be another highway I'd redesignate as a secondary highway and route.

I'll have to look when I get home, but it seems to me I have an old map where OR 51 was extended over to OR 223, but I think it wasn't over the Monmouth Hwy.  More on this later . . .

Quote
My guess is that the ones with the name in the RTE section are pre-2002 (or post-2002 if no route number has been assigned yet).

Exactly.  I don't think they're in any hurry to replace those older signs.

Quote
Yeah, please be careful and exercise sound judgment.  Your life and health are much more important than some roadgeek photos in the grand scheme of things.  Good call on hiking that one old segment instead of driving it.  The other segments, however, appear to still be maintained as county roads and also appear to be at the same elevation as current US-97, so you can probably drive them just fine.

You have zero fears on that score.  I'm not about to risk my vehicle or myself just for this hobby.  I've passed up plenty of road photos I wanted over the years because there was no safe or convenient way to get the shot.  This is just an interest, not an obsession.

Quote
If you were to find an old stone milepost along OR-293 or that connector road (which I believe is a frontage road for the Dalles-California Highway #4), that would be a great find.  I figure ODOT would remove stone mileposts from current state highway ROW, save for the Columbia River Highway.  However, given how slow they were to replace old-style cutout shields, anything is possible.

I've driven OR 293 and that connector, and I don't remember any old stone mileposts, but I may not have been looking, either.
Logged

NE2

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14228
  • fuck

  • Age: 13
  • Location: central Florida
  • Last Login: December 01, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2012, 05:01:44 PM »

If I remember correctly, every portion of every highway was assigned a route number in the 1930s. This is why seemingly useless routes were signed. As to why they were added to the state highway system, politics.
Logged
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

I agree to indemnify Belkin against unauthorized use of its MiniVak vacuum.

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6687
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 10:59:24 AM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »

Very impressive find! It gives a sense of nostalgia with the US 99 that no longer exists.
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

agentsteel53

  • invisible hand
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 15374
  • long live button copy!

  • Age: 40
  • Location: San Diego, CA
  • Last Login: November 21, 2016, 09:58:39 AM
    • AARoads Shield Gallery
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2012, 12:11:38 PM »

Very impressive find! It gives a sense of nostalgia with the US 99 that no longer exists.

US-99 was still signed in 1971?  here I thought it was completely eliminated by 1969. 
Logged
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 08:02:48 AM »

US-99 was still signed in 1971?  here I thought it was completely eliminated by 1969.

It was eliminated in California and Washington by 1969.  However, Oregon, stubborn as it is, kept it signed until 1972, when it became a state route.  Take a look at these maps, dated 1971 and 1972, to see the difference:

1971 Gousha1972 Gousha
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 09:48:57 AM »

It was eliminated in California and Washington by 1969.  However, Oregon, stubborn as it is, kept it signed until 1972, when it became a state route.  Take a look at these maps, dated 1971 and 1972, to see the difference:

I was only a kid then, but I remember that the US designation held on for a couple years longer in Oregon than WA/CA.  US 99 completely disappeared in Kelso, across the Columbia River from where I grew up (Rainier), but US 99E/99W were still down in Portland, which we used to drive through on the way to visit my grandparents down by Salem.  We used to take US 30/Front Avenue/Harbor Drive/I-5 to get there, which is why I also remember Harbor Drive before its removal.

In an earlier post, I said this:

Quote
I'll have to look when I get home, but it seems to me I have an old map where OR 51 was extended over to OR 223, but I think it wasn't over the Monmouth Hwy.  More on this later . . .

And later is now: I was mistaken on this.  I was remembering the original OR 224, which was signed on (I believe) Airlie Rd in Polk County connecting US 99W and the original alignment of OR 223 between the 30's and 50's.
Logged

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 07:19:12 PM »

In an earlier post, I said this:

Quote
I'll have to look when I get home, but it seems to me I have an old map where OR 51 was extended over to OR 223, but I think it wasn't over the Monmouth Hwy.  More on this later . . .

And later is now: I was mistaken on this.  I was remembering the original OR 224, which was signed on (I believe) Airlie Rd in Polk County connecting US 99W and the original alignment of OR 223 between the 30's and 50's.

I'll verify this with my maps, but I believe that Airlie Rd. was, in fact, OR-223, and Elkins Rd. (the road you thought was Airlie) was signed as OR-224.  From Google Maps, it also looks like Helmick Rd. is an old alignment of US-99W, continuing through Monmouth as Warren, Warren/Knox couplet, Main, and Monmouth Ave., then north of Monmouth as Riddell Rd. to Orrs Corner Rd. (the intersection of which could have been the old N terminus of OR-223??), then connecting to the current Pacific Highway #1W.  To be honest, Polk County's route and highway designations have always kind-of confused me.
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

xonhulu

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1366
  • Location: Salem, OR
  • Last Login: October 22, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 08:57:30 PM »

I'll verify this with my maps, but I believe that Airlie Rd. was, in fact, OR-223, and Elkins Rd. (the road you thought was Airlie) was signed as OR-224.  From Google Maps, it also looks like Helmick Rd. is an old alignment of US-99W, continuing through Monmouth as Warren, Warren/Knox couplet, Main, and Monmouth Ave., then north of Monmouth as Riddell Rd. to Orrs Corner Rd. (the intersection of which could have been the old N terminus of OR-223??), then connecting to the current Pacific Highway #1W.  To be honest, Polk County's route and highway designations have always kind-of confused me.

I just looked at my 1936 map and you're right, OR 224 was on Elkins, not Airlie.  You're also right that OR 223 was originally partly on modern Airlie Rd, but it then took Maple Grove Rd to Pedee and continued south roughly on the current alignment.  The newer, more-westerly alignment of Kings Valley Hwy. came later, in 1944 if I'm reading the HSHO document correctly.  This jibes with my old maps, as it happens between my 1941 and 1954 maps.  It looks like that was also the year Monmouth Hwy #194 was added to the state network. 

And US 99W did follow the roads you described above.  I like to drive along these old alignments of 99W, because they really have that "old highway" feel, and in some places you can still see the older, narrower pavement, with a strip paved on the side to widen the road to modern standards.

By the way, the route confusion on the Monmouth Highway bridge signs also extends to nearby OR 223:



Logged

Alps

  • Everybody Obeys the Octagon
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14645
  • Elimitante the truck trarffic,

  • Age: 38
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Last Login: December 01, 2021, 08:13:17 PM
    • Alps' Roads
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 09:06:03 PM »

US-99 was still signed in 1971?  here I thought it was completely eliminated by 1969.

It was eliminated in California and Washington by 1969.  However, Oregon, stubborn as it is, kept it signed until 1972, when it became a state route.  Take a look at these maps, dated 1971 and 1972, to see the difference:

1971 Gousha1972 Gousha
You mean, completion of I-405 and OR 217, growth of Gresham, and adding several more Ts?

JasonOfORoads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 271
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: September 08, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
    • ORoads: The Roads of Oregon
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 11:07:22 PM »

US-99 was still signed in 1971?  here I thought it was completely eliminated by 1969.

It was eliminated in California and Washington by 1969.  However, Oregon, stubborn as it is, kept it signed until 1972, when it became a state route.  Take a look at these maps, dated 1971 and 1972, to see the difference:

1971 Gousha1972 Gousha
You mean, completion of I-405 and OR 217, growth of Gresham, and adding several more Ts?

The Ts are for Texaco stations, since both the '71 and '72 maps are Texaco-branded.  I also have a Texaco '73.

Plus, you forgot the elimination of Harbor Drive.
Logged
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

Alps

  • Everybody Obeys the Octagon
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14645
  • Elimitante the truck trarffic,

  • Age: 38
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Last Login: December 01, 2021, 08:13:17 PM
    • Alps' Roads
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 11:16:42 PM »

US-99 was still signed in 1971?  here I thought it was completely eliminated by 1969.

It was eliminated in California and Washington by 1969.  However, Oregon, stubborn as it is, kept it signed until 1972, when it became a state route.  Take a look at these maps, dated 1971 and 1972, to see the difference:

1971 Gousha1972 Gousha
You mean, completion of I-405 and OR 217, growth of Gresham, and adding several more Ts?

The Ts are for Texaco stations, since both the '71 and '72 maps are Texaco-branded.  I also have a Texaco '73.

Plus, you forgot the elimination of Harbor Drive.
Elimination? Looks like it's still there just inside I-405. Not to mention it's still there in real life.

NE2

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14228
  • fuck

  • Age: 13
  • Location: central Florida
  • Last Login: December 01, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
Re: Interesting ODOT FTP Server Find - 1971 Interstate 5 Straightline Chart
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2012, 12:11:20 AM »

Most of Harbor Drive was literally torn up. The road was east of Naito Parkway, where the park is now.

However, it was not closed until 1974 (per Wikipedia).
Logged
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

I agree to indemnify Belkin against unauthorized use of its MiniVak vacuum.

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.