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Indirect control cities

Started by TheStranger, August 19, 2010, 06:50:16 PM

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Zzonkmiles

#175
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but on I-85 north in North Carolina past Durham, Richmond appears as a control city even though you have to get on I-95 to get there. Actually, the control cities keep jumping around here (Richmond, Petersburg, Henderson, Oxford).

US 321 south uses Savannah as a control city, but the road ends before it even reaches the city limits. You have to take I-95 south and I-16 east to get there.

EDIT:  Actually US 321 ends before it even crosses the Georgia state line!


KG909

I-40 uses Los Angeles but ends about 115 miles away.
~Fuccboi

KEVIN_224

#177
Boston is mentioned as a control city on I-84 as early as Hartford...despite the fact said interstate ends a good 55 miles west of it.

roadman65

Quote from: mrsman on September 05, 2014, 11:00:08 AM
In my view, it is better to have an indirect major control city than to have a minor control city that most drivers have never heard of.

So it's completely appropriate to sign I-80 eastbound to NYC, or I-15 southbound (from Las Vegas) into Los Angeles.
Like Pemberton being used for the Garden State Parkway at Exit 63A instead of Camden which was always used up until the current signs were erected as part of the 63 to 80 widening project.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

The Nature Boy

Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 10:12:12 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 05, 2014, 11:00:08 AM
In my view, it is better to have an indirect major control city than to have a minor control city that most drivers have never heard of.

So it's completely appropriate to sign I-80 eastbound to NYC, or I-15 southbound (from Las Vegas) into Los Angeles.
Like Pemberton being used for the Garden State Parkway at Exit 63A instead of Camden which was always used up until the current signs were erected as part of the 63 to 80 widening project.

Is it appropriate sign NYC as far west as Ohio though?

roadman

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on September 12, 2014, 09:51:33 AM
Boston is mentioned as a control city on I-84 as early as Hartford...despite the fact said interstate ends a good 55 miles west of it.


In the late 1980s, when AASHTO was considering revisions to their control city list, somebody in the organization suggested changing the eastbound control city on I-84 from Boston to Sturbridge, mainly because Boston was not the easterly terminus of I-84.

Both ConnDOT and MassDPW strongly objected to the revision (mostly ConnDOT, because of the large number of signs that would have had to be changed).  The argument the agencies put forth to AASHTO was basically that, although I-84 didn't go into Boston itself, it connected to I-90 which does, and that, because I-84 and I-90 are both eastbound roads, the use of Boston is consistent with MUTCD and AASHTO policy.  It was also pointed out that, if you eliminated Boston, the eastbound control city for I-84 would actually have to be I-90/Mass. Pike (the true terminus of the road) - and not just Sturbridge.

The suggested change was not adopted, and the easterly control city for I-84 remains Boston to this day.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

kkt

"Sturbridge" wouldn't be a help to anybody who wasn't from Sturbridge.

Zeffy

Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 12, 2014, 01:18:31 PM
Is it appropriate sign NYC as far west as Ohio though?

According to A0042069Blarg, we should sign New York City halfway across the country. Personally, I'm surprised he didn't suggest to sign New York in San Francisco at the US 101 / I-80 interchange.

QuoteFor people heading from New England NY, to LA southern California aria I think St Louis is the mid point, for many drivers especially for snowbirds
I suggest for  snowbirds (just like I-95 nb before Washington DC)on the side on I-44  northbound a few Exits before I-55 (New York, New England use I-55 north I-70 East).
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

roadman65

Memphis is signed as far north as Chicago, which is further away from the Windy City than Youngstown, OH is to NYC.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Zeffy

Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 02:13:56 PM
Memphis is signed as far north as Chicago, which is further away from the Windy City than Youngstown, OH is to NYC.

True, but both I-55 and I-57 will take you from Chicago to Memphis without having to switch roads if you wanted.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

roadman65

Yes I know that, but I was pointing out that to who object to having NYC used in Ohio that this is not the farthest point a city is used. 
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

The Nature Boy

Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
Yes I know that, but I was pointing out that to who object to having NYC used in Ohio that this is not the farthest point a city is used.

It just always seemed weird to me when I'd travel I-80 in that direction. But of course, I-80 across PA has nothing of real note on it so I don't know what other city you could use.

Pete from Boston

#187
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on September 12, 2014, 09:51:33 AM
Boston is mentioned as a control city on I-84 as early as Hartford...despite the fact said interstate ends a good 55 miles west of it.

You don't say.


Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 12, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
Yes I know that, but I was pointing out that to who object to having NYC used in Ohio that this is not the farthest point a city is used.

It just always seemed weird to me when I'd travel I-80 in that direction. But of course, I-80 across PA has nothing of real note on it so I don't know what other city you could use.

Is our friend (sockpuppet?) with the neverending campaign to sign the way to New York at every highway junction within 400 miles still around?   

The Nature Boy

Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 12, 2014, 11:00:28 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on September 12, 2014, 09:51:33 AM
Boston is mentioned as a control city on I-84 as early as Hartford...despite the fact said interstate ends a good 55 miles west of it.

You don't say.


Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 12, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
Yes I know that, but I was pointing out that to who object to having NYC used in Ohio that this is not the farthest point a city is used.

It just always seemed weird to me when I'd travel I-80 in that direction. But of course, I-80 across PA has nothing of real note on it so I don't know what other city you could use.

Is our friend (sockpuppet?) with the neverending campaign to sign the way to New York at every highway junction within 400 miles still around?

Didn't he want New York signed on every highway that came remotely close to the metro area? I imagine that he'd go so far as to sign I-84 as "New York" since you could use I-684 to get to Westchester. 

mrsman

Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 12, 2014, 11:11:15 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 12, 2014, 11:00:28 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on September 12, 2014, 09:51:33 AM
Boston is mentioned as a control city on I-84 as early as Hartford...despite the fact said interstate ends a good 55 miles west of it.

You don't say.


Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 12, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
Yes I know that, but I was pointing out that to who object to having NYC used in Ohio that this is not the farthest point a city is used.

It just always seemed weird to me when I'd travel I-80 in that direction. But of course, I-80 across PA has nothing of real note on it so I don't know what other city you could use.

Is our friend (sockpuppet?) with the neverending campaign to sign the way to New York at every highway junction within 400 miles still around?

Didn't he want New York signed on every highway that came remotely close to the metro area? I imagine that he'd go so far as to sign I-84 as "New York" since you could use I-684 to get to Westchester.

I think part of the consideration when using indirect control cities is to determine the dominant direction of traffic and to see if a major destination is reached, or at the very least that the road points you in that direction.

I-80 ends in Teaneck, NJ, but if you continue heading compass east, you will be driving on I-95 north to the GWB and into Manhattan.  So NYC is a proper control city for I-80.  (And by that logic NJ 3 and NJ 4 as well). 

Another good example of an indirect control city is Dayton, OH.  Originally, the control cities for I-70 were Indianapolis and Columbus.  In between, I-70 passes about 10 miles north of Downtown Dayton, outside of the city limits, but well within the Dayton metropolitan area.  Dayton was added as a control city on I-70 since it passes close enough, even though it is technically an indirect control city.  Dayton proper can be reached from I-70 by using I-75 or I-675.  Dayton is a proper control city for I-70, because it is large enough to be well known in the Midwest.

roadman65

It is similar to Huntsville being used for I-65 now between Birmingham and Nashville.  For decades Nashville was used on I-65 North from Birmingham to I-565 as well as north of that interchange.  Now Huntsville is used where that particular city is 22 miles east of I-565 more than Dayton is off of I-70.

The same for SB I-65 from Nashville south uses Huntsville and no longer Birmingham as was used for many years prior.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bassoon1986

With all of these examples like I-40 west and I-57 south stopping short of large cities I keep forgetting about one right where I live.

Alexandria, LA is a major criss-crossing of highways. Pretty much every major city in Louisiana is named as a control city from somewhere in town, and especially at the traffic circle. (Except Lafayette, the closest one!! Don't get me started on that one...) When US 71 and US 165 cross the Red River southbound into Alexandria, there are 2 major BGSs that show Baton Rouge and Lake Charles respectively for those 2 highways. US 71 ends at US 190 near Krotz Springs, which is about 40 miles west of Baton Rouge. It's very likely this stemmed from the time when US 71 piggybacked US 190 to reach Baton Rouge, although there really isn't any better city of decent size other than Bunkie.

I'm not sure when but I'm guessing when I-49 was completed in Alexandria in the 1990's, but the signs on the south traffic circle do not show Baton Rouge for US 71 anymore to complete the journey from the other signs. It now shows South US 71 TO US 167 Opelousas. I think that it is matching the South I-49 control city that follows in about 3 miles. Seeing that US 71 is the highway there, and not 167, I wish the control city were a city on 71. It's very interesting though...just past the circle on 71 south, there is a mileage sign for Baton Rouge and New Orleans! None of the highways on this stretch of road or of upcoming junctions take you directly there (US 71, US 167, US 190, or I-49). The best option that I use is US 71 south to I-49, US 190 east to Port Allen, LA 415, I-10. I think it's neat to see New Orleans that far north in Louisiana and also when it takes multiple highways to get there.

JustDrive

US 93 at AZ 71 is signed towards Los Angeles.  71 ends at US 60, which now ends at I-10, which goes to L.A.

roadman65

I just thought of one that I used to see constantly and is most likely still there to this day.  I-280 Westbound at Exit 10 for Northfield Avenue in West Orange, NJ has South Orange as one of its control cities that is very indirect from the interchange location to the said Village's location.

To get to South Orange as the exit guide for Exit 10 says you must turn right (EB) on Northfield Avenue, and turn right (SB) on Valley Road. 

If you want to get technical you can say everything about the sign other than West Orange is indirect.  Montclair is even more indirect as you must use Northfield Avenue to Main Street.  Then Main Street to Harrison Avenue which becomes Orange Road.  Then Orange Road to Bloomfield Avenue.  Also CR 508, the exits route number, is indirect as you must use Northfield Avenue Westbound to reach CR 508 WB and Northfield Avenue EB to Valley Road SB to reach CR 508 EB.

Plus no follow up signs to guide you to any of these routes once you exit to make it most indirect.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Kacie Jane

If you're familiar at all with the area south of Seattle (or the first six or so posts in this thread), you may recall SR 167's unique east-west portion (still signed north/south even though if you're driving "north", you're actually headed slightly southeast) from Tacoma to Puyallup.  When it was first numbered, SR 167 went south along its current route to Auburn, then followed what is now SR 164 to Enumclaw.  The section from Auburn to Puyallup was a separate highway, and the section from Tacoma to Puyallup was part of SR 410, and before that US 410.

Sorry, that got rambly.

Point of the matter, east...er...northbound on 167 about halfway between Tacoma and Puyallup, there's a mileage sign listing the distances to Puyallup, Enumclaw, and Yakima.  Only Puyallup is on 167, the other two are on 410... except not, since 410 ends at US 12 about 30 miles short of Yakima.

(Also, at the freeway junction in Puyallup, Seattle is used as 167's northbound control city, when it hasn't gotten that far since 1992.  512's control city is Olympia, it's never gone that far, but it's used as a connector to I-5 and points south.)

roadman65

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 27, 2014, 01:39:22 PM


Sorry, that got rambly.





I do not think you have anything to worry about LOL! 
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

MattHanson939

#196
Quote from: TheStranger on August 19, 2010, 06:50:16 PM
Sometimes, due to the replacement of a route that once reached the destination, the current numbered route's control city will reflect that of the decomissioned route and not the actual, much nearer terminus of the current route.  The two examples I can think of:

- I-205 for San Francisco (the old US 50 control city), which requires transitions to I-580 and I-80 to get to SF
- I-40 in Arizona for Los Angeles (the US 66 control city), requiring the usage of I-15 and I-10 to get to the LA city limits

However, I know of at least one example that is even more indirect, and signed as such due to proximity to another indirect connection:

- Route 120 west in Manteca is signed for San Francisco from Route 99, requiring one to also use I-5 south, I-205 west, I-580 west and I-80 west!

Any other examples out there of control cities that can only be accessed by taking at least two different numbered routes past the original highway?

I can think of several examples of control cities that can be accessed by only having to take one route past the original highway's terminus; and it appears most cases for signing indirect control cities is done this way.


  • I-25 south for El Paso only requires you to take I-10 to get to the city; and El Paso is only 45 miles from I-25's southern terminus.  In fact, traffic on SB I-25 south defaults onto EB I-10 (which actually runs north-south between EP and Las Cruces) when you're headed in that direction.
  • NM 502 east is signed for Santa Fe, and you only have to take US 84/285 south to get there.
  • I-8 east in Arizona is signed for Tucson.  You only have to use I-10, especially considering the fact that traffic from I-8 east defaults onto I-10 east.
  • US 550 south from Bloomfield signs Albuquerque, and you only have to take I-25 south.
  • I-15 south from Las Vegas is signed for Los Angeles; you only have to take I-10.
  • CA 99 uses Los Angeles as the southbound control city; you only need to go on I-5 south (especially since traffic defaults onto SB 5).

But here are other examples of control cities that have to be accessed by taking two or more routes beyond the original's terminus.


  • I-24 west is signed for St. Louis, and you have to take I-57 north and then I-64 west to reach the city.
  • I-8 east in Arizona from Yuma to Gila Bend is dual-signed for Tucson and Phoenix.  To get to PHX, one has to go north on AZ 85 and then I-10 east.


kphoger

Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 27, 2023, 02:09:22 PM
But here are other examples of control cities that have to be accessed by taking two or more routes beyond the original's terminus.

I-24 west is signed for St. Louis, and you have to take I-57 north and then I-64 west to reach the city.

In fairness, I believe AASHTO doesn't even list a control city at all for I-24 west of Paducah.  If that's correct, then signing it for St Louis sounds like more of an ad hoc decision by Kentucky.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Flint1979

Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:19:31 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 27, 2023, 02:09:22 PM
But here are other examples of control cities that have to be accessed by taking two or more routes beyond the original's terminus.

I-24 west is signed for St. Louis, and you have to take I-57 north and then I-64 west to reach the city.

In fairness, I believe AASHTO doesn't even list a control city at all for I-24 west of Paducah.  If that's correct, then signing it for St Louis sounds like more of an ad hoc decision by Kentucky.
Yep one thing I remember when I was in that area is that the control city in Illinois is Interstate 57.

ilpt4u

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 27, 2023, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:19:31 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 27, 2023, 02:09:22 PM
But here are other examples of control cities that have to be accessed by taking two or more routes beyond the original's terminus.

I-24 west is signed for St. Louis, and you have to take I-57 north and then I-64 west to reach the city.

In fairness, I believe AASHTO doesn't even list a control city at all for I-24 west of Paducah.  If that's correct, then signing it for St Louis sounds like more of an ad hoc decision by Kentucky.
Yep one thing I remember when I was in that area is that the control city in Illinois is Interstate 57.
St Louis is on the destination/mileage signs in Kentucky along 24, but not in Illinois. St Louis is acknowledged by IDOT at 24's western (northern) terminus, tho, as a BGS with instructions To St Louis Follow 57 North 1 mile before the 57 interchange, and then a BGS on 57 as 24 traffic merges on noting "To St Louis use 64 West 51 Miles"



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