So I've seen some arguments on the internet over the past couple months that are all trying to decide one thing: what are the bounds of the American South? I've seen several interesting takes on this; some people lump in all of Texas and Oklahoma into the south, some just generally refer to southern states as being the former confederate states, and others (such as Matt Mitchell) are hesitant to include cities such as Atlanta and Nashville as southern. As for me, here are the bounds of what I consider the South to be:
(https://imgur.com/YsGwEe5.jpg)
I feel that these borders properly encompass the South. I do recognize that Southern culture does have some sub-cultures, such as Appalachian culture, Mid-Atlantic (Old South) culture, Texas ranch culture, and others. However, I don't really consider them to be truly southern in culture. I know a ton of people will disagree, so what do you think encompasses the South?
P.S. Moderators feel free to move this if you feel it belongs in a regional board.
I would definitely include Richmond in the South. Ex-in-laws from there, and there was no way they could not be considered southern. Great people, as long as we avoided certain topics.
Where the White Castle/Krystal divide happens, where Checkers becomes Rally's, where slaw becomes a condiment instead of a side dish. I've lived in both parts of the country (and have wanted to map this, but I'm lazy), but those are my starting points.
Anything below I-70
Using my experience in the South and local climate, I would go with this area:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SJcN8YH/Screenshot-2022-11-25-11-32-39-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Note that this region is very different from the Deep South, which consists of the Bible Belt (MS, AL, GA) and parts of surrounding states.
Any state that seceded. Lol.
I always feel conflicted when this issue is brought up. Oklahoma and Texas have some things in common with the South (political conservatism, love of college football, religiosity, sweet tea) but the culture there is way different than in the Deep South. When I visited Louisiana and Mississippi earlier this year for the Natchez meet, I felt like I was in an entirely foreign country.
Maybe Oklahoma and Texas are the Shallow South.
Quote from: jlam on November 26, 2022, 01:46:59 AM
Using my experience in the South and local climate, I would go with this area:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SJcN8YH/Screenshot-2022-11-25-11-32-39-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Note that this region is very different from the Deep South, which consists of the Bible Belt (MS, AL, GA) and parts of surrounding states.
Too expansive. In my experience, the south should not include anything along or west of the I-45 corridor in Texas, nor anything in Oklahoma west of US 69.
Most of Oklahoma and Kansas and even most of northern Texas I would identify as a "Southern Plains" region that shares some features with the south but has stronger affinities with the Midwest, with some western or Mexican influence the farther west or south you go. Tulsa feels way more similar to Omaha than Little Rock. Dallas feels more like Kansas City than Shreveport. And so on...
Or as they say, Texas is not the south, it's Texas!
Another definition could include all of the counties and states (in orange) that voted for George Wallace in 1968.
https://images.app.goo.gl/8F81QcDAj6f3bAx36
IMO, based solely on my experiences, you should include Houston in the south - and that would be as far west as you want to go in Texas.
Dallas has more of a midwestern feel. There are times that I have been in the suburbs of Dallas, and I felt that I may as well be in "warm Chicagoland."
San Antonio has a southwestern feel. Austin is a big, University town.
Atlanta and Nashville are firmly southern. The bootheel can also get away with being called southern.
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Gets a rise out of my cousin in Haymarket to say that they are.
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).
It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.
You guys are pretty close on the line in Florida, but I'll be more specific -- I think it should run about SW-NE along the Alachua-Marion County line and its extension - Gainesville is South, Ocala is horse country. Palm Coast isn't South, but Palatka and St. Augustine are. Levy County is South, but I think Citrus County marks the beginnings of snowbird territory.
(Edit to add: I just realized this line I made up perfectly coincides with FDOT districts (https://www.fdot.gov/agencyresources/districts/index.shtm). Districts 2 and 3 are South, the rest are not.)
On the northern side, I would default to the Ohio River being the boundary between South and Not South. But in my experience there isn't much cultural difference between Kentucky and Indiana (minus the steel mills and suburbs in the northwest), and I've noticed the accents generally start to kick in once you go south of US 30 in Indiana. I don't know if I want to pull the trigger and put most of Indiana in The South, but excluding Kentucky also feels weird to me.
Quote from: pianocello on November 26, 2022, 09:36:22 AM
You guys are pretty close on the line in Florida, but I'll be more specific -- I think it should run about SW-NE along the Alachua-Marion County line and its extension - Gainesville is South, Ocala is horse country. Palm Coast isn't South, but Palatka and St. Augustine are. Levy County is South, but I think Citrus County marks the beginnings of snowbird territory.
(Edit to add: I just realized this line I made up perfectly coincides with FDOT districts (https://www.fdot.gov/agencyresources/districts/index.shtm). Districts 2 and 3 are South, the rest are not.)
On the northern side, I would default to the Ohio River being the boundary between South and Not South. But in my experience there isn't much cultural difference between Kentucky and Indiana (minus the steel mills and suburbs in the northwest), and I've noticed the accents generally start to kick in once you go south of US 30 in Indiana. I don't know if I want to pull the trigger and put most of Indiana in The South, but excluding Kentucky also feels weird to me.
Using Indiana as an example but believing this to be true in most places, there's no sharp dividing line. As you move away from the Michigan state line, Indiana becomes gradually more southern as you move south. There isn't a single road or natural feature where there's really a marked difference. If you want to use the very subjective criteria of "more southern than not," you'd end up with a boundary that places Terre Haute, Greencastle, Plainfield, Greenwood, Greenfield and Richmond in the north, with Cloverdale, Mooresville, Franklin, Shelbyville, Rushville and Connersville in the south.
My general rule is any former Confederate state, except for Texas (which was a Confederate state but has a much different character than much of the rest of the South), the DC metropolitan area in Virginia (you could probably argue this extends as far south as I-295, honestly), and Florida south of Orlando.
Having grown up in the Great White North, anything south of Chicago is The South™.
It may not be true anymore, but in the past both Louisville, KY and Baltimore, MD have been considered the northernmost southern city and the southernmost northern city.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 26, 2022, 10:54:04 AM
It may not be true anymore, but in the past both Louisville, KY and Baltimore, MD have been considered the northernmost southern city and the southernmost northern city.
I also heard that used for St Louis when I moved there. It was a point of contention between the North and South during the Civil War, as Union forces held the city itself but rural areas around St Louis were strongly pro-Confederate. St Louis natives also said it was the easternmost western city and westernmost eastern city due to its claim as Gateway to the West (as symbolized by the Arch) and its industrial nature circa 1904 World's Fair. Having lived there close to 30 years I can definitely say there are elements of the North, South, East, and West in the St Louis Metro and more than I've seen anywhere else in the US.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 26, 2022, 01:23:29 AM
Anything below I-70
I had a friend from Wildwood, Florida who always joked that I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 02:00:07 AM
I always feel conflicted when this issue is brought up. Oklahoma and Texas have some things in common with the South (political conservatism, love of college football, religiosity, sweet tea) but the culture there is way different than in the Deep South. When I visited Louisiana and Mississippi earlier this year for the Natchez meet, I felt like I was in an entirely foreign country.
Maybe Oklahoma and Texas are the Shallow South.
There is definitely some overlap between Texas/Oklahoma culture and Southern culture, but I agree that they are different. Tulsa in particular to me feels Midwestern, and nowhere I've been to in OK has truly felt "Southern". Texas is trickier. To me, everything that is in a pine forest in Texas is definitely southern (Beaumont, Lufkin, Tyler, Texarkana, etc.), but anything west of that is not. Then there's the tricky issue of classifying Houston. To me it almost feels that it is hard to classify as Texan or Southern because it is so substantially different than both of those cultures. It's like a cultural island given how diverse it is, much like how Miami is to Florida. In fact, Miami seems to be the metro area with whom Houston shares the most in common.
Quote from: skluth on November 26, 2022, 11:03:19 AM
I also heard that used for St Louis when I moved there. It was a point of contention between the North and South during the Civil War, as Union forces held the city itself but rural areas around St Louis were strongly pro-Confederate. St Louis natives also said it was the easternmost western city and westernmost eastern city due to its claim as Gateway to the West (as symbolized by the Arch) and its industrial nature circa 1904 World's Fair. Having lived there close to 30 years I can definitely say there are elements of the North, South, East, and West in the St Louis Metro and more than I've seen anywhere else in the US.
Agreed on the mixed cultures in St. Louis. Perhaps the south begins once you get south of the Metro area.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2022, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).
It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.
Besides the spoils, the victors get the naming rights.
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.
But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.
But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
Yes, even cities that are now pretty civil had zoning laws that certain neighborhoods couldn't have black people living there, except for domestic servants. I was pretty shocked when I learned that. But it wasn't unusual even in northern cities.
I thought Florida was the south as it's as far south you can get without going to Cuba. However Georgia cops don't think it is as they treat Florida residents that they pull over like northerners.
Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.
But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
I thought poll taxes were just southern, but learned some northern states used them too.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 26, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81
As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this. Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.
Also, in Florida, anything north of coastal US 98 or Gainesville or Palatka is the South. Everything below there has been taken over by Yankees or Cubans.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2022, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded.
This is the base definition I tend to go with. Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.
The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).
It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.
Hopefully there are no statues there.
Here we go again.
Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.
Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
Yep. I agree.
Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.
But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
That brings Utah into the South, where Jim Crow was implemented haphazardly, jurisdiction by jurisdiction.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.
Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
I interviewed with the LFUCG (Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government) in 2002 and the people I talked to there considered themselves Midwestern.
Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:18:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.
Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
I interviewed with the LFUCG (Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government) in 2002 and the people I talked to there considered themselves Midwestern.
Not my cousins that live in the area. I find it's more that area considers itself the civilized South, for there be dragons down the Mountain Parkway.
Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County. (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west). To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that. (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)
Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:40:46 PM
Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County. (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west). To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that. (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)
Hundreds were common in the southern colonies prior to 1776. Virginia and North Carolina had them, although I don't think they were formally defined as any sort of subcounty unit.
Hundreds are...British, actually (cf. the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds, a position that resigning members of the House of Commons are appointed to in order to circumvent laws aimed at preventing them from doing so).
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 07:50:49 PM
Hundreds are...British, actually (cf. the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds, a position that resigning members of the House of Commons are appointed to in order to circumvent laws aimed at preventing them from doing so).
Yeah, which would explain why the older colonies (Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware) had them.
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.
I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.
Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2022, 09:55:49 PM
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.
I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.
Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.
Wow, this is... OFF TOPIC.
As someone who has lived in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas..
I always consider the south to be MS, AL, GA, TN, FL, SC, ARK and LA.
I consider Texas to be a totally different place. Like a mix of the south and the southwest. Yes there are similarities but Texas is much more closely associated with the southwest than the Deep South. The Mexican influences and the diversity of the cities are far beyond anything the Deep South can boast.
I consider the South to include all first-level subdivisions of the US that subsume territorial units in which Black slavery was legal and not subject to phased abolition in 1861. This includes the entire Confederacy (yes, even Texas), DC, the border states of Kentucky, Missouri, and (eventually) West Virginia, Oklahoma on the basis that several of the Civilized Tribes enslaved Blacks, and also Delaware since attempts to abolish slavery before 1861 failed despite 91.7% of the Black population being free in the 1860 census.
I prefer to delegate carving out regions on the basis of different culture, economic focus (e.g. ranching/the Old West mythos of west Texas and western Oklahoma), or urban development to a later stage of whatever discussion is at hand. To my way of thinking, big cities don't get to use the stylized fact that Southern cultures are rural and agrarian almost by definition to opt out of being in the South. It doesn't matter whether the conurbations in question barely existed in 1861 (El Paso) or have Hispanic cultural affinities (San Antonio). Some attract significant migration from non-Southern regions (Atlanta, Northern Virginia), while others have very little (Baltimore); they are all Southern. Cities are inseparable from their hinterlands.
I do agree that racial discrimination after the Civil War period is not a good basis for a definition. Forms of Jim Crow existed even in the Northeastern states before the Civil War (in his autobiographies, Frederick Douglass mentions being ejected from a railroad carriage in Massachusetts explicitly because of the color of his skin). And although Kansas entered the Union as a free state, Brown v. Board of Education is associated with it because of a law that allowed local school boards to require segregation of elementary school students. Before the Supreme Court discarded Voting Rights Act preclearance in 2013, states subject to it included Arizona and Alaska as well as the South.
My hometown feels so left out. Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west. Then where do we fit in? I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do. Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s
Quote from: jgb191 on November 27, 2022, 02:27:46 AM
My hometown feels so left out. Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west. Then where do we fit in? I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do. Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
North Mexico
Quote from: jgb191 on November 27, 2022, 02:27:46 AM
My hometown feels so left out. Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west. Then where do we fit in? I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do. Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
The Tampa area definitely has some Civil War backstory to it. The era of the Seminole Wars definitely put the entirety of Florida in Deep South territory to me even if the modern populace doesn't reflect that.
Everything except the Florida peninsula. I'd say south of Jacksonville feels different than the south. The Miami area with its large Hispanic population feels much more like a different place than the rest of the South.
I find this map (https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/686877636741464064/11-nations-of-the-united-states) interesting in part because the South here is divided into smaller units. The northern parts of "The South" here are part of Appalachia, which makes sense from both a culture and a physical geography perspective. It also has SE Louisiana and South Florida broken out as parts of New France and the Spanish Caribbean respectively. Tidewater is also separate, though I think it should be part of the South. It certainly felt that way when I lived in Portsmouth.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/8d13892ce040a8123dfd3a6c2c1f0aeb/1dac3baf82485805-40/s1280x1920/5e7df0f7ce5f4f0952568bcf79e2747e40cdb55f.jpg)
Quote from: skluth on November 27, 2022, 11:25:24 AM
I find this map (https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/686877636741464064/11-nations-of-the-united-states) interesting in part because the South here is divided into smaller units. The northern parts of "The South" here are part of Appalachia, which makes sense from both a culture and a physical geography perspective. It also has SE Louisiana and South Florida broken out as parts of New France and the Spanish Caribbean respectively. Tidewater is also separate, though I think it should be part of the South. It certainly felt that way when I lived in Portsmouth.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/8d13892ce040a8123dfd3a6c2c1f0aeb/1dac3baf82485805-40/s1280x1920/5e7df0f7ce5f4f0952568bcf79e2747e40cdb55f.jpg)
That is interesting that Sacramento is considered "Far West" and San Francisco is listed as "The Left Coast". That second city that's on the border between Far West and Left Coast is Oakland or Napa? I doubt they are thinking of areas like Vacaville, Suisun City, Davis and Fairfield given that this is a national map on regions. Also Sacramento at one time could have been "Far West" but today it's more on the side of "The Left Coast" if we are going to base this on current demos in the area. Also Washington DC and Baltimore are in three places like Appalachia, Tidewater and Midlands at the same time. Its interesting that "The Left coast" combines Appalachia and Yankeedom descriptions together. However, once you enter San Francisco, San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties the New Amsterdam characteristics come into play too.
Phoenix and Albuquerque are on the border of Far West and El Norte at the same time, Atlanta and Little Rock are at the border of Appalachia and Deep South. St. Louis and Columbus, are at the border of The Midlands and Appalachia. I was thinking US Regions would be more like this one though the one Wikipedia cited.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/MapofEmergingUSMegaregions.png)
the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast? Come on!
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 02:45:37 AM
"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s
Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.
Texas belongs in various regions.
East Texas is definitely part of the south. Any place with pine trees would constitute East Texas. There is not much apparent difference between E TX and northern Louisiana.
South Texas is part of Greater Mexico. This would include San Antonio, the RGV, Laredo, and Corpus Christi.
The desert/dry parts of West Texas are certainly Greater Mexican/southwestern.
The Panhandle is obviously part of the Great Plains/Midwest region.
Dallas/North Texas feels midwestern geographically, but being a polyglot of migration from everywhere the cultural influences come from all corners. Not just Southern whites/blacks and Hispanics (natives and immigrants), but also Asian and Middle Eastern influence. Plano is ground zero for Korean cuisine in possibly all of America.
Houston is similar but with a more Southern feel, both in climate, geography and demographics.
The most "Texas" feeling parts in Texas to me are the Hill Country and the vast prairie hinterland within the Texas Triangle.
As for Louisiana, while culturally and geographically a southern state there are unique cultural elements (Creole, Cajun) that make the southern part of the state feel somewhat "separate" from the "classic" Deep South. Also the "standard" Southern accent is absent in south LA, or in muted form in certain areas such as Baton Rouge. The Acadiana region has its own Cajun-influenced accent and of course many New Orleans speakers have the fabled "yat" accent common to the white working classes of that region.
Quote from: texaskdog on November 27, 2022, 12:28:24 PM
the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast? Come on!
Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 27, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 02:45:37 AM
"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s
Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.
Since when has the "Body of Christ" been exclusively a Catholic concept in the bounds of Christianity?
Quote from: SectorZ on November 27, 2022, 02:50:21 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 27, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 02:45:37 AM
"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s
Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.
Since when has the "Body of Christ" been exclusively a Catholic concept in the bounds of Christianity?
Those two particular words are generally associated with Catholicism in part because of the liturgical day with that name and primarily because of the phrase's use in the Latin Mass in conjunction with the Eucharist. The city in Texas got its name because the first Spaniard to sail to the area named after the day on which he arrived (Corpus Christi, traditionally the Thursday after Trinity Sunday). Most Protestant denominations do not observe Corpus Christi.
Spanish explorers had a funny habit of doing that (naming locations after whatever the saint of the day was when they visited them). Thus areas where the Spanish were the first to explore having so many sorta interchangeable names: San Benito, San Bernardino, San Escritorio, Santa Rosa, Santa Barbara, Santa Vaca, or whatever.
San Francisco after St. Francis of Assisi which is ironic considering the city is the most far from Catholic values with it being the capital of things from Acid Rock to the LGBT movement.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.
Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
Even the ones that live in Newport right across the river from Cincinatti? While I have always thought of Kentucky as being more southern than midwestern I never thought it was 100% the south.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 27, 2022, 08:38:32 PM
San Francisco after St. Francis of Assisi which is ironic considering the city is the most far from Catholic values with it being the capital of things from Acid Rock to the LGBT movement.
Pretty strong on "love thy neighbor" and leaving judgement to God, though.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 26, 2022, 10:14:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2022, 09:55:49 PM
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.
I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.
Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.
Oh, I disagree very strongly with that. Much of Maryland has a southern accent and everything. The DC area has maybe become less southern in character in the past few decades, but there's definitely still ties and associations with the traditional South. And that's not to mention the southern Delmarva peninsula, which is pretty much quintessential South in just about every way imaginable.
These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Maybe Southern Missouri but I still consider Missouri to be a midwestern state. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 27, 2022, 11:07:34 PM
These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.
As someone who lived in Atlanta for four years, this is very much accurate.
Maryland and Virginia absolutely used to be 100% Southern. That's why DC is where it is - as a concession to the southern states in exchange for creating a system where the federal government would assume the states' debt from the American Revolution. Southern states either didn't have as much debt or had paid more of it off, so they did not want to have to subsidize northern states' unpaid debt. As a concession for setting up that system, the planned national capital was located in the South.
The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 26, 2022, 11:16:56 AM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 26, 2022, 01:23:29 AM
Anything below I-70
I had a friend from Wildwood, Florida who always joked that I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
Yeah, I had a classmate, during my LSU grad school excursion, that said the same thing.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 27, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on November 27, 2022, 02:27:46 AM
My hometown feels so left out. Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west. Then where do we fit in? I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do. Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
North Mexico
More like "South America" (to quote Bo Diddley)
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 27, 2022, 01:59:35 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 27, 2022, 12:28:24 PM
the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast? Come on!
Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?
That region's called "Little Texas".
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.
Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".
A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 28, 2022, 12:53:34 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 27, 2022, 01:59:35 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 27, 2022, 12:28:24 PM
the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast? Come on!
Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?
That region's called "Little Texas".
Eastern New Mexico is the second most socioeconomically depressed place in the US I have ever been (behind only the Navajo reservation). Drive through Harding County and it really hits you just how dead and poor much of that region is. I don't agree with assigning "Appalachia" to anything west of the Mississippi, but I certainly see the comparison.
I don't see much of a comparison to even panhandle Texas though. Not like that's much of a utopia but at least there are a lot of cows and some semblance of life and activity.
If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on November 28, 2022, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.
Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".
A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.
I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.
As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Black_Americans_by_county.png/1600px-Black_Americans_by_county.png)
The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.
I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.
Arkansas' net Black population is shrinking because like everyone else they're moving out of the Delta, which is almost completely dead economically. Some of them have moved out of state, some to Little Rock and quite a few to the Ozarks (i.e. NWA), which used to be as white bread as it got.
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 01:31:22 AM
Quote from: ozarkman417 on November 28, 2022, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.
Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".
A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.
I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.
As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:
The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.
I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.
I've driven a lot in rural Indiana and Illinois to clinch highways and counties, and I see confederate flags all the time. I've seen them in Michigan.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 28, 2022, 07:18:34 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 01:31:22 AM
Quote from: ozarkman417 on November 28, 2022, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.
Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".
A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.
I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.
As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:
The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.
I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.
I've driven a lot in rural Indiana and Illinois to clinch highways and counties, and I see confederate flags all the time. I've seen them in Michigan.
As someone who was born in the backwoods of western Arkansas, and raised by a bigoted policeman, I'd say that Confederate flag waving is less about geography and more about education level.
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.
Interestingly, I think this has happened to a greater degree in the DC area than it has in Baltimore (being the capital is no doubt a factor in this). This creates an interesting dynamic where the Baltimore area as a whole now feels a bit more southern (relatively speaking) despite being further north.
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 01:05:51 AM
Eastern New Mexico is the second most socioeconomically depressed place in the US I have ever been (behind only the Navajo reservation). Drive through Harding County and it really hits you just how dead and poor much of that region is. I don't agree with assigning "Appalachia" to anything west of the Mississippi, but I certainly see the comparison.
Well, that sounds a lot like West Virginia, so it makes sense from that perspective. But the landscape and contextual location rule out calling it Appalachia.
Missouri is interesting: the Ozark Mountains and the lowlands of the Bootheel are definitely Southern, whereas the KC area and the rolling hills in the central and northern parts of the state seem more Midwestern. St. Louis, meanwhile, is its own thing and seems to have more in common with the Ohio Valley and even with some of the cities "back East" ; I sometimes call it "the westernmost eastern city" .
From a historical perspective, the South would be anything below the Mason-Dixon Line and the Ohio River. But of course there are some exceptions to this, as FL doesn't have the same feel as its neighboring states, with older Northerners migrating there by the thousands. The most Southern place in TX is Houston, and even that is a tough nut to crack, with its burgeoning Latino population. FWIW, Cincinnati, OH can make its case as the southernmost Northern city, seeing that it borders KY, a southern state.
During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2022, 11:02:01 AM
During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.
Indeed. Folks in St. Mary's County and much of Charles County in Maryland do still identify with the South.
Quote from: jgb191 on November 28, 2022, 01:08:40 AM
If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.
Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.
Quote from: skluth on November 28, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on November 28, 2022, 01:08:40 AM
If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.
Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.
Yeah, I was about to say that you could say a lot of things about that period, but "cooler heads prevailed" is not one of them in the least bit. Provoking the war with Mexico was the Slave Power's biggest coup, and forcing the US to eat the elephant is what ultimately triggered the Civil War.
Quote from: skluth on November 28, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on November 28, 2022, 01:08:40 AM
If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.
Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.
And if Jefferson Davis would have had his way, the Mexican Cession would have included most of northeastern Mexico, including its current second largest metropolitan area - Monterrey.
Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 27, 2022, 11:07:34 PM
These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.
As someone who lived in Atlanta for four years, this is very much accurate.
Maryland and Virginia absolutely used to be 100% Southern. That's why DC is where it is - as a concession to the southern states in exchange for creating a system where the federal government would assume the states' debt from the American Revolution. Southern states either didn't have as much debt or had paid more of it off, so they did not want to have to subsidize northern states' unpaid debt. As a concession for setting up that system, the planned national capital was located in the South.
The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.
Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.
You didn't see my edit. Missouri as a whole isn't southern, but parts of Southern Missouri feel like it.
From my viewpoint the answer is pretty easy: Andalusia :sombrero:. That is pretty much the South of Spain.
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 28, 2022, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.
Sure. But there's no perfect answer to this question either.
Also, how would you classify West Virginia? It does extend as far north as New York City, but it also is part of Appalachia and feels southern.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
See above.
I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.
100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina
Mostly Southern: Virginia
Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida
Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 28, 2022, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.
It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on November 28, 2022, 05:22:51 PM
Also, how would you classify West Virginia? It does extend as far north as New York City, but it also is part of Appalachia and feels southern.
Quote from: US 41 on November 28, 2022, 07:04:25 PM
Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri
There used to be a subtle dividing line in West Virginia between "The North" and "The South", which somewhat described how the state was divided during the Civil War. In more modern times, it represented the associational split between American Baptists and Southern Baptists. It wasn't a perfect line, but the general idea for "The South" was the following:
Southern Wayne County
Southern tip of Putnam County
Mingo County
Logan County
Boone County
Raleigh County
Summers County
Wyoming County*
McDowell County
Mercer County
Monroe County
Using the same rule of thumb, the three counties in the Eastern Panhandle also belong in this list:
Morgan County
Berkeley County
Jefferson County
*Oddity: There is a large cluster of American Baptist churches in Wyoming County, smack dab in the middle of the rest of these "Southern" counties. Big enough to consider including Wyoming as a "Northern" county.
Quote from: skluth on November 28, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico.
Mexico lost even more than that. All of Nevada and Utah and chucks of Colorado and Wyoming.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on November 28, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 28, 2022, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.
It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.
Chicago and Buffalo are not what I think of when I think of BBQ. They definitely have their BBQ scenes like every major metro would, but not as a top of mind cuisine.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on November 28, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 28, 2022, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 28, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.
That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.
It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.
Chicago and Buffalo are not what I think of when I think of BBQ. I'm sure they have their BBQ scenes like every major metro would, but not as a top of mind cuisine.
People should not confuse buffalo wings with BBQ.
I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 28, 2022, 10:20:59 PM
That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.
It's fine if that region is "Not the South"'.
So it doesn't look like anyone has yet brought up the 40-60 rule and the 81-83 rule.
In short, those rules go like this:
- Anything north of US 40 is wholly northern. Anything south of US 60 is wholly southern. Anything in between the two has elements of both and is a transition zone
- Anything east of US 81 is wholly eastern. Anything west of US 83 is wholly western. Anything in between the two has elements of both and is a transition zone.
Since when people say "The South" they're referring to what is geographically the southeast, this gives us US 60 and US 81 as soft borders of The South. I will note the image in the OP reasonably approximates US 60 as the drawn northern border. And while it doesn't approximate US 81, the 81-83 rule itself admittedly starts to break down south of US 80 (I-20) and is completely invalid south of US 90. South Texas is really just its own thing, not eastern, western, or southern.
US 81 is way too far west even north of US 80. The eastern parts of Oklahoma and Texas are more Southern, but the cities are honestly their own thing. Dallas is kind of a mix of Southwest and Midwest. Oklahoma City and Tulsa are mixes of that and Midwest. I've been to all three cities multiple times and there isn't really much of a Southern element in any of them.
If you want a road to serve as the western boundary for the South, US 69 or US 59 would probably be better choices.
I know Van Buren, AR I heard the Braums Dairy Store employee talk real southern when I patronized it in 2016, so my guess is US 59 would be the line or extent from the east.
I don't really know that accent really should factor into it at all. I'm sure some of you would say I have an accent (I feel like I don't have much of one, but nobody ever thinks they have an accent) and yet I'm about as far from culturally Southern as you can get.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 28, 2022, 10:20:59 PM
I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.
Maryland was not part of the confederacy
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 28, 2022, 10:20:59 PMI find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.
For me it's not the Confederacy so much as all of the places (including border states and parts of territories that later joined the Union) where Black slavery was legal in 1861. (BTW, Wikipedia suggests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_(American_Civil_War)) Delaware was considered a border state despite its not actually bordering any part of the Confederacy.)
The Union was much larger geographically than the Confederacy--one reason the latter lost the Civil War--and consisted of two noncontiguous blocks of states.
Maybe 100 years ago Maryland and Delaware would be considered southern, but today I'd consider them solidly Northeastern. Politically and culturally they are more similar to New Jersey than any southern state. Also every state in the northeast region is tiny except for New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.
Honestly the Potomac River / Chesapeake Bay and the Ohio River are good natural boundaries for separating the north (NE and MW) and the south.
Quote from: Rothman on November 28, 2022, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
See above.
In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are
also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.
Quote from: US 41 on November 29, 2022, 07:33:07 PM
Maybe 100 years ago Maryland and Delaware would be considered southern, but today I'd consider them solidly Northeastern. Politically and culturally they are more similar to New Jersey than any southern state. Also every state in the northeast region is tiny except for New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.
Honestly the Potomac River / Chesapeake Bay and the Ohio River are good natural boundaries for separating the north (NE and MW) and the south.
So back in 2005-06 I worked in PG County, and there was a big culture clash going on to the south in Charles, Calvert and St. Mary's counties with DC commuters moving in amongst the long time culturally southern residents.
Quote from: webny99 on November 29, 2022, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 28, 2022, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
See above.
In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.
Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 30, 2022, 10:05:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 29, 2022, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 28, 2022, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
See above.
In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.
Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.
Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 30, 2022, 10:24:18 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on November 30, 2022, 10:05:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 29, 2022, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 28, 2022, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
See above.
In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.
Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.
Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.
In a sense, the same could also be said of the Cincinnati-Dayton corridor, given the number of transplanted Appalachians who live there. See J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" for details. Vance's grandparents moved to Middletown, Ohio, from Breathitt County, Ky., yet still maintained a lot of their Appalachian customs, as did many of the others who moved from areas to the south.
But having said, that, I would not necessarily consider Cincinnati "southern," but I certainly would Portsmouth, Ironton, and Gallipolis. Marietta, however, gives off more of a "rust belt" vibe than southern.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
Quote from: webny99 on November 29, 2022, 07:36:22 PM
In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 30, 2022, 10:05:51 PM
Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 30, 2022, 10:24:18 PM
Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 30, 2022, 10:34:04 PM
In a sense, the same could also be said of the Cincinnati-Dayton corridor, given the number of transplanted Appalachians who live there. See J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" for details. Vance's grandparents moved to Middletown, Ohio, from Breathitt County, Ky., yet still maintained a lot of their Appalachian customs, as did many of the others who moved from areas to the south.
But having said, that, I would not necessarily consider Cincinnati "southern," but I certainly would Portsmouth, Ironton, and Gallipolis. Marietta, however, gives off more of a "rust belt" vibe than southern.
I've got a number of relatives in Southeastern Ohio, and other than the part that they are *from West Virginia* they certainly don't consider themselves to be Southerners. But quite frankly, I think that they didn't consider themselves to Southerners when they were *from West Virginia* either. And although some of them live in one of poorest sections of Appalachia, they don't think of themselves living in Appalachia anymore now that they are in Ohio.
The food is different in Southeastern Ohio as well. To be honest, you can't tell much difference between the local food in Roane County, West Virginia as compared to the local food next door to us in Alamance County, North Carolina. Except that they serve sauerkraut in Roane County (as a Germanic addition to their Scots-Irish roots), whereas they serve Red Slaw in Alamance County (as a Germanic addition to their Scottish roots). Both go equally well with pork. And the folks over in Alamance County completely get it when I break into my full-bore Appalachian dialect (which drives my wife crazy).
From New England, anything south of the Mason-Dixon Line could reasonably be considered southern, although the differences are significant.
Maryland/DC, Delaware, Northern Virginia and eastern West Virginia are more mid-Atlantic. The rest of West Virginia, the western parts of Virginia and North Carolina, the eastern portions of Kentucky and Tennessee and the upstate/northern parts of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi are Southern Appalachian. The rest of the southeast (including Florida north of Ocala and east Texas) are the Deep South. Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas are also mostly southern. Parts of nearby states, such as Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Oklahoma have southern-adjacent areas (literally and figuratively) but those states as a whole aren't southern.
Quote from: Henry on November 28, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
From a historical perspective, the South would be anything below the Mason-Dixon Line and the Ohio River. But of course there are some exceptions to this, as FL doesn't have the same feel as its neighboring states, with older Northerners migrating there by the thousands. The most Southern place in TX is Houston, and even that is a tough nut to crack, with its burgeoning Latino population. FWIW, Cincinnati, OH can make its case as the southernmost Northern city, seeing that it borders KY, a southern state.
I live in Houston. I don't know if bourgeoning is the right word. Hispanic/Latino people are a sizable majority here. Like 44%. Non-Hispanic whites are only 24%. Though we are a famously and noticeable diverse place with people from all over the world, Hispanic/Latino people are by far the majority. Its one of my favorite things about living in Houston.
Any state part of of the confederacy, Deep South would be Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee South Carolina, and North Carolina
I only now hopped into this thread, because I knew it would be a doozy.
But I agree with the statement below, from the very first reply.
Quote from: kkt on November 26, 2022, 12:49:53 AM
I would definitely include Richmond in the South. Ex-in-laws from there, and there was no way they could not be considered southern.
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2022, 05:52:02 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 26, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81
As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this. Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.
For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 26, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2022, 05:52:02 PM
As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this. Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.
Quote from: kphoger on December 01, 2022, 10:12:39 PM
For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.
And US-30 is the approximate dividing line in West Virginia. :hmmm:
Quote from: US 41 on November 28, 2022, 07:04:25 PM
I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.
100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina
Mostly Southern: Virginia
Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida
Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri
Remove all the tourists from Branson, and it's indistinguishable from Arkansas.
Quote from: kphoger on December 01, 2022, 10:22:51 PM
Quote from: US 41 on November 28, 2022, 07:04:25 PM
I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.
100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina
Mostly Southern: Virginia
Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida
Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri
Remove all the tourists from Branson, and it's indistinguishable from Arkansas.
Even Table Rock Lake, the entire reason for Branson's existence, is managed by the Little Rock USACE. So, yeah, Branson is pretty much Eureka Springs, AR with bigger shows, more tourists, and a bigger lake with less Victorian housing.
Quote from: kphoger on December 01, 2022, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2022, 05:52:02 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 26, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81
As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this. Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.
For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.
And then in Florida, you get south of the panhandle, and pretty much get back into unsweet tea. Another reason that only the panhandle of Florida is really influenced by its Deep South neighbors while the rest is so chock full of transplants, that it doesn't fit with anywhere else.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 28, 2022, 10:20:59 PM
I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.
The defining quality of the Confederacy was the plantation slavery economy, promoted by the humid subtropical climate that all Southern states share. The remaining Union states did not have anything like this in common.
One "ha ha only serious" take I've heard is that the south is anywhere more than X miles from a Whole Foods.
The Missouri bootheel -- heck, pretty much all the area south of Cape Girardeau and east of that ridgeline between Sikeston and Poplar Bluff -- gives off a positively Delta feel.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 27, 2022, 08:38:32 PM
San Francisco after St. Francis of Assisi which is ironic considering the city is the most far from Catholic values with it being the capital of things from Acid Rock to the LGBT movement.
Same with San Jose named after St. Joseph and Sacramento named after "The Sacrament" all Catholic references when Spain and Mexico had "Alta California"
But when you go to San Jose in real life it's all about whatever the latest news on the VC community is hyping about.
Sacramento carries some of the Ex-San Francisco residents and make them mainstream as seen above.
If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex139-cXEAcw90J?format=jpg&name=large)
Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 02, 2022, 02:45:08 PM
If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex139-cXEAcw90J?format=jpg&name=large)
Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.
Take out everything north of the Mason-Dixon Line in Ohio and Indiana, and the parts of central Missouri (plus the random section of the OK panhandle). Then that would be a pretty accurate map of the south.
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 02, 2022, 03:18:46 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 02, 2022, 02:45:08 PM
If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex139-cXEAcw90J?format=jpg&name=large)
Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.
Take out everything north of the Mason-Dixon Line in Ohio and Indiana, and the parts of central Missouri (plus the random section of the OK panhandle). Then that would be a pretty accurate map of the south.
I agree. Make the Missouri line at I-44 and exclude St Louis city and county. Even that southern part of Illinois with Waffle Houses feels more Southern than Midwestern. The only thing I'd add is the I-64 corridor in Virginia; basically everything south of Fredericksburg in Virginia is Southern.
Colorado must be in the South, since Wikipedia reports it has 10 Waffle House locations.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 02, 2022, 06:53:21 PM
Colorado must be in the South, since Wikipedia reports it has 10 Waffle House locations.
I don't think it's a one/other, just which one is more prevalent in a given location. Colorado has 36 IHOPs to the 10 Waffle Houses.
https://restaurants.ihop.com/en-us/co/
In the South, you'all know how to roast the whole pig. In West Virginia, the only folks fixin' the whole pig invited the Governor. But they made sure it was smoked with applewood.
Quote from: skluth on December 02, 2022, 05:11:18 PM
I agree. Make the Missouri line at I-44 and exclude St Louis city and county. Even that southern part of Illinois with Waffle Houses feels more Southern than Midwestern.
I-44 is a decent dividing line for Missouri, I think. Springfield is a lot less Southern than Branson, for example. I've never spent time between I-44 and US-60 in the central part of the state, though, to know if the latter might be a better dividing line. Sikeston does seem Southern, but Chester (IL) does not.
As for southern Illinois, it's a transition zone. Marion isn't very Southern at all, yet Paducah (KY) is. Vienna and Dongola are so-so.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 02, 2022, 02:45:08 PM
If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex139-cXEAcw90J?format=jpg&name=large)
Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.
Politically speaking, according to this map, Ohio and Indiana are right on point. Culturally speaking, it's a tougher call.
Quote from: kurumi on December 02, 2022, 12:23:19 PM
One "ha ha only serious" take I've heard is that the south is anywhere more than X miles from a Whole Foods.
or within Y miles of a Walmart?
Quote from: kkt on December 02, 2022, 08:12:20 PM
Quote from: kurumi on December 02, 2022, 12:23:19 PM
One "ha ha only serious" take I've heard is that the south is anywhere more than X miles from a Whole Foods.
or within Y miles of a Walmart?
Since Walmarts are now everywhere, I'm not sure they're and indicator of the south.
We got a Whole Foods a lot closer than a Walmart...
I think there are two layers of the south: the deep south, and the Appalachian south. The Appalachian south gets extended down to the Ozarks and into Oklahoma to an extent.
I'm sorry, but NO part of ANY state NORTH of the Ohio River is in any way part of "The South". Yes, there are certainly southern INFLUENCES in parts of southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and southern Ohio, but to try and assert that any part of those three states is "The South" s just plain ignorant, IMO.
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
I'm sorry, but NO part of ANY state NORTH of the Ohio River is in any way part of "The South". Yes, there are certainly southern INFLUENCES in parts of southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and southern Ohio, but to try and assert that any part of those three states is "The South" s just plain ignorant, IMO.
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
Ignorance is a two-way street in this case.
"I know you've lived in the Kansas City metro your whole life, and called yourself Midwestern, but, you have to stop now, due to something that happened in 1787. Thank you, no questions."
Illinois is midwestern. So is Indiana. And most of Ohio.
Illinois is midwestern technically geographically, but much of the state was developed by the southerners. A lot of southern influence running around. Williamson County was basically for a time being run by Seth Glenn Young and a lot of Klansmen.
What all this arguing reminds you is that all this is subjective to the person. Doesn't seem worth wasting the energy.
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on December 03, 2022, 08:39:09 PM
Illinois is midwestern technically geographically, but much of the state was developed by the southerners. A lot of southern influence running around. Williamson County was basically for a time being run by Seth Glenn Young and a lot of Klansmen.
What all this arguing reminds you is that all this is subjective to the person. Doesn't seem worth wasting the energy.
A less controversial example might be Lincoln who settled in Illinois by way of Central Kentucky.
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
This is where we need to remember geography and culture don't neatly overlap. Your argument can be distilled down to "these places are Midwestern but are in no way, shape, or form any part of the Midwest". How does that make sense?
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PMFurthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
I do. While I consider the Old Northwest to be a distinct region of the Midwest, I do not consider it to be
all of the Midwest, which also includes the frontier tier states from Kansas northward as well as the states between them and the Old Northwest.
Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 04, 2022, 07:06:32 PM
Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.
Anywhere in Oklahoma north of I-40 and east of US 281 or so absolutely can make a claim for Midwestern. As I've mentioned on here before, Tulsa reminds me way more of Omaha or Kansas City than it does of Texas or anything in the South. Oklahoma City does have a little more of that Texas feel, but even then, Dallas is really more Midwestern than anything else...
My definition of the South. Morgantown and Fairmont, WV are most assuredly not. Morgantown is 65 miles from Pittsburgh.
https://twitter.com/sctvman/status/1599568651417313280?s=61&t=JHS3bz_lu770G99Li3ixlQ
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
I'm sorry, but NO part of ANY state NORTH of the Ohio River is in any way part of "The South". Yes, there are certainly southern INFLUENCES in parts of southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and southern Ohio, but to try and assert that any part of those three states is "The South" s just plain ignorant, IMO.
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
Any definition of "midwest" that doesn't include Iowa is a poor definition.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 03, 2022, 08:04:54 PM
Illinois is midwestern. So is Indiana. And most of Ohio.
What part of Ohio is not midwestern?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 04, 2022, 08:17:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 03, 2022, 08:04:54 PM
Illinois is midwestern. So is Indiana. And most of Ohio.
What part of Ohio is not midwestern?
The coal country part.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 04, 2022, 08:17:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 03, 2022, 08:04:54 PM
Illinois is midwestern. So is Indiana. And most of Ohio.
What part of Ohio is not midwestern?
The part that hasn't been covered in a roadmeet.
Quote from: skluth on December 04, 2022, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on December 03, 2022, 08:39:09 PM
Illinois is midwestern technically geographically, but much of the state was developed by the southerners. A lot of southern influence running around. Williamson County was basically for a time being run by Seth Glenn Young and a lot of Klansmen.
What all this arguing reminds you is that all this is subjective to the person. Doesn't seem worth wasting the energy.
A less controversial example might be Lincoln who settled in Illinois by way of Central Kentucky.
An alternate alternate take is Lincoln got out of slave territory while the getting was good.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 04, 2022, 11:40:01 PM
Quote from: skluth on December 04, 2022, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on December 03, 2022, 08:39:09 PM
Illinois is midwestern technically geographically, but much of the state was developed by the southerners. A lot of southern influence running around. Williamson County was basically for a time being run by Seth Glenn Young and a lot of Klansmen.
What all this arguing reminds you is that all this is subjective to the person. Doesn't seem worth wasting the energy.
A less controversial example might be Lincoln who settled in Illinois by way of Central Kentucky.
An alternate alternate take is Lincoln got out of slave territory while the getting was good.
He wasn't that old when the family moved from Kentucky to Indiana, and from what I understand, a lot of Kentuckians were moving north because they were having a hard time establishing title to their land. (Kentucky is not in the Public Lands Surveys the way Indiana and Illinois are.) Slavery didn't have that much to do with it.
Quote from: US 89 on December 04, 2022, 07:11:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 04, 2022, 07:06:32 PM
Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.
Anywhere in Oklahoma north of I-40 and east of US 281 or so absolutely can make a claim for Midwestern. As I've mentioned on here before, Tulsa reminds me way more of Omaha or Kansas City than it does of Texas or anything in the South. Oklahoma City does have a little more of that Texas feel, but even then, Dallas is really more Midwestern than anything else...
The cities tend to trend more midwestern in this part of the country, including NWA, but once you get into the rural (not suburban) parts, it's a different world, with lifestyles not too removed from 60 years ago. The cities of NWA actually have historically been better connected to Tulsa and KC than Little Rock due to the Boston Mountains being a fairly big impediment to travel before US-71 was replaced with I-540/I-49, and now with all of the transplants moving into the area, it's even more the case. Even the weather up in this part of the state is closer to midwestern climate with milder summer and harsher winter than the rest of the state.
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
It's not "your region". It's ours too.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 04, 2022, 07:06:32 PM
Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.
Parts of Oklahoma are totally Midwestern. And yeah, your mention of Kay County is spot on; that's the part of the state I have in mind.
https://goo.gl/maps/3w9iKLEDa9Srmp226
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 05, 2022, 09:12:41 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 04, 2022, 11:40:01 PM
Quote from: skluth on December 04, 2022, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on December 03, 2022, 08:39:09 PM
Illinois is midwestern technically geographically, but much of the state was developed by the southerners. A lot of southern influence running around. Williamson County was basically for a time being run by Seth Glenn Young and a lot of Klansmen.
What all this arguing reminds you is that all this is subjective to the person. Doesn't seem worth wasting the energy.
A less controversial example might be Lincoln who settled in Illinois by way of Central Kentucky.
An alternate alternate take is Lincoln got out of slave territory while the getting was good.
He wasn't that old when the family moved from Kentucky to Indiana, and from what I understand, a lot of Kentuckians were moving north because they were having a hard time establishing title to their land. (Kentucky is not in the Public Lands Surveys the way Indiana and Illinois are.) Slavery didn't have that much to do with it.
While Lincoln and other Kentuckians were out of slave territory, southern Indiana and southern Illinois were settled by Southerners early on as they moved west from Kentucky and the generations before that from Virginia (including Lincoln's own family). They continued to move further west to Missouri and Kansas; Missouri came into the Union as a slave state and was quite Southern in character as far north as Hannibal (most of us are at least familiar with Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer) while the battle for Kansas before the Civil War can be found in most textbooks (unless Texas has scrubbed that from history texts too). The historic conflict is the settlement of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio from both slave and free states and Northerners (and a lot of immigrants) settled the northern parts of last three because Canada was directly west from NY and New England so Americans from those regions had to migrate southwest. The completion of the Erie Canal in the mid-1820s was a huge factor in making it easy to migrate from New England to the Great Lakes region. The higher productivity of the extremely flat and fertile northern parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois (thanks to Ice Age glaciation) assured that north of the National Road (future US 40) would be the most populous areas and the cities along and north of the I-70 line dominated those states well into the 20th century. The rapid industrialization and massive European immigration of the Great Lakes cities at previous turn of the century assured that northern dominance continued.
I did like that map I posted earlier (https://64.media.tumblr.com/8d13892ce040a8123dfd3a6c2c1f0aeb/1dac3baf82485805-40/s1280x1920/5e7df0f7ce5f4f0952568bcf79e2747e40cdb55f.jpg) because - as others have also said - there's really a difference between what most think of as the True South™ and what's closer to Appalachia (which in my mind extends to the hills of Eastern Oklahoma). Appalachia has a lot of Southern mentality but tends to be a lot whiter as the land wasn't suited for plantation agriculture and IMO extends from Morgantown WV down the Ohio and Tennessee Valleys then to about Ardmore OK. Not sure of the exact split between the South and Appalachia, but there's a huge Southern dent into Appalachia up to the Bootheel. I agree it doesn't go as far west as West Texas and New Mexico. I'd have added another region called "The Great Plains" east of the Rockies, extending from the Prairie Provinces down to the Permian Basin and the Texas Hill Country north and northwest of Austin because it's culturally much the same with a lot of wheat fields and oil. I'd also have a separate region for the Bos-Wash megalopolis.
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
It's not "your region". It's ours too.
As a Minnesotan, I feel I have much more in common with the Dakotas and Iowa than I do with Indiana. Sorry SSR_317.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 05, 2022, 03:22:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
It's not "your region". It's ours too.
As a Minnesotan, I feel I have much more in common with the Dakotas and Iowa than I do with Indiana. Sorry SSR_317.
Can't the both Great Lakes and Great Plains be part of the Midwest?
The idea that Illinois and Iowa are in different regions of the country is completely foreign to me (and Illinois is one of the only two states I've lived in).
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 03:54:41 PM
The idea that Illinois and Iowa are in different regions of the country is completely foreign to me (and Illinois is one of the only two states I've lived in).
Right. What I don't understand is, what region could Iowa possibly be in if not the midwest?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 05, 2022, 03:22:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
It's not "your region". It's ours too.
As a Minnesotan, I feel I have much more in common with the Dakotas and Iowa than I do with Indiana. Sorry SSR_317.
Minnesota, Iowa, and Indiana are all midwestern. The Dakotas are plains states but also midwestern. You gotta draw the line somwhere. Western Kansas is more similar to Eastern Colorado than Cleveland but Colorado is a mountain state and Kansas is midwestern.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 05, 2022, 04:08:29 PM
Minnesota, Iowa, and Indiana are all midwestern. The Dakotas are plains states but also midwestern. You gotta draw the line somwhere. Western Kansas is more similar to Eastern Colorado than Cleveland but Colorado is a mountain state and Kansas is midwestern.
This is why I think the Midwest ends just barely over the Colorado state line. It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
But that's another thread. This one is supposed to be about the South.
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
I would use the line that's already there, the one between them. ;-)
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
But that's another thread. This one is supposed to be about the South.
That train may have left the station...
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 05, 2022, 04:08:29 PM
Minnesota, Iowa, and Indiana are all midwestern. The Dakotas are plains states but also midwestern. You gotta draw the line somwhere. Western Kansas is more similar to Eastern Colorado than Cleveland but Colorado is a mountain state and Kansas is midwestern.
This is why I think the Midwest ends just barely over the Colorado state line. It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
But that's another thread. This one is supposed to be about the South.
The Midwest seems to be a very big region. Using some definitions, it stretches from Colorado to Upstate New York.
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PMThis is why I think the Midwest ends just barely over the Colorado state line. It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
That's easy--both Dakotas are Midwestern while Montana is part of the intermountain West.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 05:08:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
This is why I think the Midwest ends just barely over the Colorado state line. It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
That's easy--both Dakotas are Midwestern while Montana is part of the intermountain West.
But that ignores the vast plains of eastern Montana, which appear to have a lot more in common with the Dakotas than with the Rockies.
I will say that I normally note enough of a shift in geography at US-81 that I would be fine saying it is midwest to the east of it and something else (High Plains?) to the west of it.
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 05:18:58 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 05:08:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
This is why I think the Midwest ends just barely over the Colorado state line. It's the Dakotas and Montana that I have trouble with: where to draw the line?
That's easy--both Dakotas are Midwestern while Montana is part of the intermountain West.
But that ignores the vast plains of eastern Montana, which appear to have a lot more in common with the Dakotas than with the Rockies.
Is that any different than eastern Colorado, though? Most of the population centers in Montana are also further west, while the eastern portions are quite sparsely populated.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 05, 2022, 06:11:46 PMI will say that I normally note enough of a shift in geography at US-81 that I would be fine saying it is midwest to the east of it and something else (High Plains?) to the west of it.
Others suggest US 281 and US 83 as dividing lines. It's possible to make cases one way or another based on prevalence of drip irrigation (favors US 281), upland Southern accents (favors US 81), etc. The key is that it is a zone of gradual transition.
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 05:18:58 PMBut that ignores the vast plains of eastern Montana, which appear to have a lot more in common with the Dakotas than with the Rockies.
Not at all. If you are going by whole states rather than regions thereof, it makes no sense to put the mountain communities of central and western Montana (which have the bulk of the state population) in a Midwestern bloc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 06:39:01 PM
If you are going by whole states rather than regions thereof
I don't.
Quote from: webny99 on December 05, 2022, 06:33:21 PM
Is that any different than eastern Colorado, though? Most of the population centers in Montana are also further west, while the eastern portions are quite sparsely populated.
As I said in the thread that's actually about the Midwest:
Quote from: kphoger on September 27, 2018, 10:03:11 AM
I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).
For example, consider how similar it is between these two roadscapes:
Chester, MT (https://goo.gl/maps/9YM84orWVfUrabyq5) (300+ miles west of the ND/MT state line)
Dupree, SD (https://goo.gl/maps/4FUaHghyr8yzfQty8) (100+ miles east of the SD/MT state line)
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 06:46:41 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 06:39:01 PMIf you are going by whole states rather than regions thereof
I don't.
I do. I go by whole states specifically to avoid a discussion-by-proxy as to how much fragmentation is permissible in characterizing a given unit of land as belonging to a given region, whether that is defined in terms of climate, culture, dialect group, or other variables. It takes enough time to work just at county level that it seems to me more productive to have the discussion among professional geographers, who are disposed by training to think in terms of well-defined categories.
This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states. It isn't that I don't acknowledge states like Oklahoma and Texas have regions that don't feel Southern; I just don't want to
go there in terms of sub-state areas.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 04, 2022, 07:06:32 PM
Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.
In other words, Kay County is flat.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 07:07:21 PM
This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states. It isn't that I don't acknowledge states like Oklahoma and Texas have regions that don't feel Southern; I just don't want to go there in terms of sub-state areas.
And my issue with that characterization is that the Southern-feeling parts of those states are the exception and not the norm.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 07:07:21 PM
This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states.
And for that reason, you would not include West Virginia in "The South". It is fair to say that Morgantown, home of West Virginia University and daggone close to Pennsylvania, still has a Southern feel (and to some extent, so does Wheeling). You can't say that about Weirton and much of the Northern Panhandle, and the Metro influence on much of Jefferson County in the Eastern Panhandle rings out the same way. For that matter, Clarksburg doesn't feel like it belongs to "The South", in part because of its strong Italian heritage. However, the two panhandles (and places like Clarksburg) are staunchly "Proud to be West Virginians", no matter how different they may be from "The South".
Which all bears to reason. The rest of the nation has already deemed West Virginia to be our own separate region, distinct from all others. Buckwild, y'all!
In the south, you can get barbecue grilles that are so big, they need license plates.
In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be (Reminder; Wainscott, New York's LIRR station had Jim Crow bathrooms, though they weren't supposed to).
In the south, the gas station signs are much bigger (not just taller).
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 06, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be
So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South? Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 06, 2022, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 07:07:21 PM
This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states.
And for that reason, you would not include West Virginia in "The South". It is fair to say that Morgantown, home of West Virginia University and daggone close to Pennsylvania, still has a Southern feel (and to some extent, so does Wheeling). You can't say that about Weirton and much of the Northern Panhandle, and the Metro influence on much of Jefferson County in the Eastern Panhandle rings out the same way. For that matter, Clarksburg doesn't feel like it belongs to "The South", in part because of its strong Italian heritage. However, the two panhandles (and places like Clarksburg) are staunchly "Proud to be West Virginians", no matter how different they may be from "The South".
Which all bears to reason. The rest of the nation has already deemed West Virginia to be our own separate region, distinct from all others. Buckwild, y'all!
To be fair, Wheeling feels like its own corner of the universe to me. Weird pizza, rust belt with coal country feel, not Pittsburgh, not Charleston...
Quote from: kphoger on December 06, 2022, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 06, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be
So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South? Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.
The Pentagon actually isn't in DC.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 06, 2022, 12:35:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 06, 2022, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 06, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be
So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South? Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.
The Pentagon actually isn't in DC.
Touché!
Quote from: Rothman on December 06, 2022, 10:47:06 AM
To be fair, Wheeling feels like its own corner of the universe to me. Weird pizza, rust belt with coal country feel, not Pittsburgh, not Charleston...
And the Wheeling Jamboree. Which gives us a new dimension to the South:
- National Barn Dance (Chicago) - 1924
- Grand Ole Opry (Nashville)- 1925
- Rex Cole's Mountaineers (New York City) - 1933
- Wheeling Jamboree - 1933
- Midwestern Hayride (Cincinnati) - 1935
- Renfro Valley Barn Dance (Cincinnati, later Mt. Vernon KY) - 1937
- Gene Autry's Melody Ranch (Hollywood) - 1940
- Tennessee Barn Dance (Knoxville) - 1942
- Renfro Valley Gathering (Renfro Valley KY) - 1943
- The Roy Rogers Show (Chicago) - 1945
- Old Dominion Barn Dance (Richmond) - 1946
- Midnight Jamboree (Nashville) - 1947
- Big D Jamboree (Dallas) - 1947
- The Western Express (Fort Worth) - 1947
- Hayloft Hoedown (Philadelphia) - 1948
- Louisiana Hayride (Shreveport) - 1948
- Hayloft Hoedown (Louisville) - 1951
- Town Hall Party (Pasadena) - 1951
- Ozark Jubillee (Springfield) - 1955
- Arkansas Traveler (Detroit) - 1977
- Mountain Stage (Charleston WV) - 1983
- Boston Bluegrass Union - 1988
- Pinecone Radio Show (Raleigh) - 1989
- Into the Blue (Pendleton OR) - 1992
My definition of "South" is regardless of culture or history.....I say geography solely determines "North" from "South" just as those two words are defined in the dictionary.
If you live closer to Canada than Mexico/Gulf coast, then you're not South: that rules out Delaware, Maryland, and both of the Virginias. If you expect to see snowfall at least every other year then you're not South: that eliminates all other "Southern" states mentioned in this thread including the Texas panhandle. Anyplace literally south of Interstate 10 I certainly consider as South (maybe upto Interstate 20 but even that's pushing it very much).
Quote from: jgb191 on December 06, 2022, 11:50:07 PM
My definition of "South" is regardless of culture or history.....I say geography solely determines "North" from "South" just as those two words are defined in the dictionary.
If you live closer to Canada than Mexico/Gulf coast, then you're not South: that rules out Delaware, Maryland, and both of the Virginias. If you expect to see snowfall at least every other year then you're not South: that eliminates all other "Southern" states mentioned in this thread including the Texas panhandle. Anyplace literally south of Interstate 10 I certainly consider as South (maybe upto Interstate 20 but even that's pushing it very much).
I mean, Richmond
was the capital of the South. Huntsville, Alabama gets 2.3 inches of snow a year, so Alabama isn't the South? And Miami sure as hell ain't the South.
^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture. I consider places like San Diego CA, Yuma AZ, New Orleans LA, Ft. Myers FL, Mobile AL as Southern.
And if Miami isn't considered South (certainly not North), then I don't what people would call it; sure as hell can't go much farther south than Miami.
Quote from: jgb191 on December 07, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture.
Of course you can feel free to do so. But just know that you will get a lot of strange looks when you claim that San Diego is in "the south." Because "the south" isn't just about geography.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 07, 2022, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on December 07, 2022, 11:45:50 AM
^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture.
Of course you can feel free to do so. But just know that you will get a lot of strange looks when you claim that San Diego is in "the south." Because "the south" isn't just about geography.
"South" is a geographic cardinal direction like north, east, and west. "The South" is a state of mind.
Exactly. There's a differentiation between south and South. Capital S means the region. That's what we're talking about here. Sure, Antarctica is south. It certainly is not the South.
"It's like America, but South."
Late to the topic, but there are so many subdivisions of "The South." I think that ANY of the below can be classified as "The South", but there are some pretty huge differences between some of these subdivisions.
Attempting to define those subdivisions in very broad strokes:
(1) South Appalachia - most of Southern West Virginia, Virginia west of the Shenandoah Valley, Kentucky south of I-64 and east of I-75, eastern Tennessee, western NC, and various counties in both north Alabama and north Georgia. Even some counties into north Mississippi too. Portions of WV and VA north of I-64 and west of the Piedmont are Central Appalachia versus South Appalachia.
(2) The Southern Piedmont - the portion of the Piedmont from I-64 south. Anything north of that is more mid-Atlantic. The "Piedmont South" covers large chunks of Central VA, central NC, upstate SC, and various counties in AL & GA that are south of "the Appalachian South."
(3) The Atlantic Coastal Plain South - portions of Virginia, NC and SC that are east of the Piedmont and south of I-64. The VA & MD portions of the DelMarva Peninsula belong here too. Arguably you could include a couple Delaware counties here too. Also include GA counties that border the Savannah River, and immediate coastal areas on the entire I-95 corridor from Savannah to Palm Coast.
(4) The Deep South - Large chunks of central and southern GA (that don't fall into any of the above), the FL Panhandle except the immediate Gulf Coast, any portions of northeast FL that aren't within 15 miles of the Atlantic Ocean and are north of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line, large chunks of central and southern AL (but not Mobile), large chunks of central and southern MS (but again, not the Gulf Coast), and finally a kind of oddball east-west "narrow tongue" of land that follows the Arkansas River upstream to Little Rock, then follows US-70 from there all the way into capturing a few counties in SE Oklahoma.
(5) The Mid-South - extreme southern Illinois, extreme western KY, the flat portions of SE Missouri (e.g., generally east and south of Poplar Bluff), west Tennessee, NE Arkansas east of Crowley's Ridge, the Memphis Metro (which includes a few counties in MS).
(6) The Mississippi Delta - MS counties that are flat and between the Mississippi & Yazoo Rivers, far eastern counties in Arkansas that are also south of Memphis, extreme NE Louisiana.
(7) The Piney Woods - far east Texas, large chunks of central and southern Arkansas (generally south of an Arkansas River to Little Rock to DeQueen line), most of Louisiana that is north of 31 degrees Latitude (31 N also makes up a portion of the LA/MS border).
(8) The Ozarks/Ouachitas - most of Arkansas that is west of a Poplar Bluff-Jonesboro-Pine Bluff line (excluding the Deep South "tongue" mentioned above). Large chunks of southern into central Missouri. Several NE and East-Central OK counties as well.
(9) Acadiana - Louisiana counties closest to the Gulf Coast with the heavy Cajun influence.
(10) Redneck Riveria - Gulf coast from just east of New Orleans all the way to the FL Big Bend. Anything more than 15 miles of the Gulf Coast doesn't qualify here.
(11) Cumberlands/Pennyriles - huge swaths of central Tennessee and central Kentucky. Probably the most "hard to precisely describe" of these 14 regions but you know it when you see it. I'd argue this doesn't extend quite up to Louisville.
(12) Bluegrass Region - portion of Kentucky centered around Lexington with rolling hills and hundreds of horse farms.
(13) Far southern Plains - the "classical" tornado alley portions of Oklahoma and Texas - that are east of 100 degrees longitude and where cattle farming/ranching isn't a huge part of the local economy.
(14) Texas Gulf Coast - Still the south, but generally anything within 50 miles of the Gulf Coast, and not within a Pine forest, all the way from the TX/LA border on down south to Corpus Christi.
--------------
Major cities that fall into each region:
(1) Pikeville KY, Huntington WV, Charleston WV, Roanoke VA, Asheville NC, Knoxville TN, Chattanooga TN, Huntsville AL, arguably Tupelo MS.
(2) Charlottesville VA, Lynchburg VA, Winston-Salem NC, Charlotte NC, Greenville SC, Atlanta GA (on the border: the deep South isn't far away at all from Atlanta's 285 Loop Southern suburbs), Birmingham AL
(3) Salisbury MD, Richmond VA, Norfolk VA, Raleigh-Durham NC, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Columbia SC, Augusta GA, Savannah GA, Jacksonville FL, Saint Augustine FL
(4) Macon GA, Albany GA, Columbus GA, Valdosta GA, Gainesville FL, Tallahassee FL, Montgomery AL, Jackson MS, Hattiesburg MS, Pine Bluff, AR, Little Rock AR, Idabel OK
(5) Cairo IL, Paducah KY, Cape Girardeau MO, Dyersburg TN, Jackson TN, Memphis TN, Jonesboro AR
(6) Greenville MS, Vicksburg MS, Helena-West Helena, AR
(7) El Dorado AR, Shreveport LA, Monroe LA, Alexandria LA, Texarkana LA-TX, Lufkin TX.
(8) Jefferson City MO (on the border), Springfield MO, Branson MO, Fayetteville AR, Fort Smith AR, Tahlequah OK (also on the border)
(9) New Orleans LA, Lafayette LA, Lake Charles LA, Baton Rouge LA
(10) Biloxi/Gulfport MS, Mobile AL, Pensacola FL, Panama City FL
(11) Nashville TN, Bowling Green KY
(12) Lexington KY, Louisville KY, Cincinnati suburbs south of the 275 loop.
(13) Dallas TX, (arguably Fort Worth isn't in this subregion, however), OKC, Lawton OK, Tulsa OK
(14) Houston, Beaumont, Victoria, Corpus Christi
Your subregions 13 and 14 are less like the others than anything on this list. Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.
I don’t get why so many people are trying to lump Texas and Oklahoma in with the South. Really, they’re their own beast entirely, but spend any time in the cities in those states and you’ll notice most of them share more affinities with the Midwest.
Quote from: US 89 on December 08, 2022, 01:32:39 AM
Your subregions 13 and 14 are less like the others than anything on this list. Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.
I don't get why so many people are trying to lump Texas and Oklahoma in with the South. Really, they're their own beast entirely, but spend any time in the cities in those states and you'll notice most of them share more affinities with the Midwest.
That's absolutely fair on subregions 13 & 14. I initially excluded them.
I tried to draw a Florida line such that Ocala is
just barely north of it - looking again Ocala is south of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line (Gainesville is definitely north of that line).
One thing for sure --- The Villages is snowbird territory. Ocala is the South, but the South ends very near to its southern border.
Quote from: US 89 on December 08, 2022, 01:32:39 AM
Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.
Quote from: keithvh on December 08, 2022, 11:22:37 AM
I tried to draw a Florida line such that Ocala is just barely north of it - looking again Ocala is south of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line (Gainesville is definitely north of that line).
One thing for sure --- The Villages is snowbird territory. Ocala is the South, but the South ends very near to its southern border.
In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River. These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns. I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 08, 2022, 03:02:10 PM
In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River. These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns. I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).
I'm not sure what the equivalent word to "gentrified" would be --- but yep, a large chunk of formerly very Southern Central Florida has been "taken over."
There are also those inland South Florida counties like Hardee, DeSoto, Highlands, Glades, Hendry, Okeechobee. They're "The South" too. Arguably their own sub-region: it feels more 3rd World-esque there than anywhere else in "The South", with the stark poverty so close to the lavish wealth just nearby in Naples, Palm Beach, Miami, et cetera.
Quote from: kphoger on December 06, 2022, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 06, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be
So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South? Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.
I
did mention that LIRR station that had Jim Crow bathrooms. The Hamptons are nowhere near the south.
Quote from: keithvh on December 08, 2022, 07:58:52 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 08, 2022, 03:02:10 PM
In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River. These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns. I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).
I'm not sure what the equivalent word to "gentrified" would be --- but yep, a large chunk of formerly very Southern Central Florida has been "taken over."
There are also those inland South Florida counties like Hardee, DeSoto, Highlands, Glades, Hendry, Okeechobee. They're "The South" too. Arguably their own sub-region: it feels more 3rd World-esque there than anywhere else in "The South", with the stark poverty so close to the lavish wealth just nearby in Naples, Palm Beach, Miami, et cetera.
I think that's another reason some lump South Florida into an extended Caribbean region rather than the US. Poor people, often of African ancestry, adjacent to (usually gated) mansions or upper classes neighborhoods is the norm for much of the Caribbean.
I live in the UK and this debate about what really comprises The South reminds me of how ferociously debated definitions of The North of England are. Traditionally, it's defined as the following traditional (pre-1974) counties: Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmorland, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire.
However, some settlements in neighbouring counties to the south like Derbyshire, Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire have similarities with their northern neighbours, even forming continuous urban areas with them.
Conversely, some in the most northerly counties of England exclude more southerly areas like Cheshire and most of Lancashire and Yorkshire from their personal definitions of the north.
I was born in Georgia, which I'd safely describe as Deep South.
For me, The South, or Dixie, comprises the following states (in bold are states I would firmly consider Deep South):
Alabama
Arkansas
Florida (North)
Florida (South)
Georgia
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Virginia
West Virginia
Non-South states of which at least part possesses southern characteristics include (kind of a buffer-zone):
Delaware
Illinois (South)
Indiana
Maryland
Missouri
Quote from: webny99 on December 05, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 05, 2022, 03:22:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
It's not "your region". It's ours too.
As a Minnesotan, I feel I have much more in common with the Dakotas and Iowa than I do with Indiana. Sorry SSR_317.
Can't the both Great Lakes and Great Plains be part of the Midwest?
Yes. They are in my world. But what do I know...except for being a geography major before I was a meteorology major in college. To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes.
Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 24, 2022, 03:50:14 PM
Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing
lol @ Lawton, OK being the "Deep South"
(And Altus not. Lawton and Altus are basically copy pastes of each other–southwestern Oklahoma towns with military installations. Unless you think the Army is somehow more Southern than the Air Force.)
Atlanta is not Appalachian by any stretch of the imagination. North Georgia yes, and maybe some of the far northern exurbs, but the metro is growing way too fast and oriented towards newer development to feel at all close to Appalachia.
Also, Tampa and Orlando are most certainly not South. They are their own breed.
Here's my take for my home state of VA and neighboring Maryland and Delaware. I'm just breaking down the eastern halves as I'm not as familiar with the mountains.
I'd say the true North-South divide is somewhere near the latitude of Baltimore. Obviously, the major metro areas of Baltimore and DC have been transformed by transplants. Though there are pockets of Southernness within those metros (Glen Burnie and PG County for example). Richmond and Norfolk are Southern at the core, but as a whole the traditional culture has been diluted in those metros.
Southeastern Virginia, roughly east of I-95 and south of US 460, is the part of VA that is undeniably southern. This is where there's peanut and cotton farms. The accent is relatively thick compared to other parts of the state. Even the disproportionately high black population resembles the Deep South.
The Delmarva Peninsula and the part of Virginia east of I-95/north of I-64 (the Chesapeake Bay region) seems to have this unique, quaint vibe where Old Bay inspired cuisine and the older Tidewater dialect remains strong.
The culture and economy of the eastern Piedmont resembles the Chesapeake Bay region. Lots of tobacco farms, a slight Tidewater accent, and a largely bi-racial demographic.
i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.
This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.
(I think I've posted this elsewhere) I like to separate the country into four regions and eight subregions. The South to me is Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. Of which the former six are the "near south" and the latter six are the "deep south" . Yes, it's weird to put Cincinnati and Covington in different regions, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere, and the border of two states along the Ohio River is as definitive as you're going to get.
Quote from: thspfc on December 26, 2022, 03:06:21 PM
Yes, it's weird to put Cincinnati and Covington in different regions, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere, and the border of two states along the Ohio River is as definitive as you're going to get.
Obviously the solution is to have a region called "Great Lakes and Ohio Valley" :P
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:11:49 AM
i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.
This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.
Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/K%C3%B6ppen_Climate_Types_US_50.png)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 26, 2022, 05:36:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:11:49 AM
i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.
This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.
Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/K%C3%B6ppen_Climate_Types_US_50.png)
Yes. Something more like this.
So Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 05:22:08 PM
So Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...
You're reading too much into it Scott. I got the point of CtrAltDel's map. It is not about the vegetation which is on this map. It's the fact that you can have stuff overlap and go across political boundaries. That's why I said something more like this to convey my original point.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 04, 2022, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
This is where we need to remember geography and culture don't neatly overlap. Your argument can be distilled down to "these places are Midwestern but are in no way, shape, or form any part of the Midwest". How does that make sense?
Please re-read my comment, as you're misquoting me by "distilling" my "argument".
That said, to each their own! I expressed my OPINION (and as usual, I did so FORCEFULLY), but everyone is free to to agree or disagree with it at will, As I stated in my original post.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 27, 2022, 03:44:00 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 26, 2022, 05:36:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:11:49 AM
i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.
This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.
Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/K%C3%B6ppen_Climate_Types_US_50.png)
Yes. Something more like this.
Csa and Csb on the map for Mediterranean climate. Yes this is pretty true in my area. Solano County gets a mix of both CSA and CSB on the map given that we get a mix of heat from the Sacramento Valley and Coastal breeze from the Bay Area at the same time.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 02, 2022, 02:45:08 PM
If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex139-cXEAcw90J?format=jpg&name=large)
Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.
Yes I always thought Waffle House was a parody name for IHOP or Denny's. Yes IHOP is the California's version of Waffle House until I seen news clips from other parts of the USA and Wikipedia page showing it's a real place in Georgia.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 05:22:08 PMSo Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...
That is more a function of the Dfa/Dfb bloc within the continental US having Cfa coastal frontage along much of its eastern boundary. And a Köppen climate zone map can look different according to the specific zone definitions that are applied (there is some leeway in terms of minimum temperature, for example). I have seen (and cited) others that don't attribute Cwa patches to Kansas and Nebraska and that position the BSk/Cfa/Dfa tripoint closer to the center of Kansas than the one CtrlAltDel posted.
The University of Vienna has Köppen climate maps for the USA as well as a database giving the percentages of each US county in the climate zones that it overlaps (http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/usa.htm). As an example, Ford County, Kansas (for which Dodge City is the seat) is more or less evenly split between Cfa and BSk.
Is the 36th parallel a benchmark for "The South"
But once it enters California then that's going to split the state in two given how it was gerrymandered.
Quote from: bing101 on January 03, 2023, 12:17:50 PM
Is the 36th parallel a benchmark for "The South"
But once it enters California then that's going to split the state in two given how it was gerrymandered.
I don't think The South exists west of about the 100th meridian
Quote from: SSR_317 on December 03, 2022, 03:44:27 PM
Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".
Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.
I know this is bumps an old comment, but say what now? In who's world does Iowa have less in common with Illinois and Wisconsin than Ohio? Ohio is practically the east. Meanwhile, SW WI and NW IL are very similar to eastern IA. The southern third of MN is just like Iowa, yet the eastern part of MN is geographically more like WI than anywhere else. If anything, there's an "eastern Midwest" and a "western Midwest" - the former being OH, IN, Lower MI; the latter being IL, WI, MN, IA, MO and the UP of MI (which should be part of WI). Of course, few people would make that distinction, so all of the above are in the
MIDWEST.
Ask anyone who lives here and they'll feel quite free to disagree with you.
ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI. Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware). The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:33:39 AM
ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI. Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.
I've lived in Kansas most of my life–both western and eastern Kansas–and everyone here thinks of the state as being part of the Midwest. As for the Garden City area: this discussion prompted me earlier to ask my good friends, who grew up in Meade and Fowler, if that part of the state is in the Midwest or not, and they answered in the affirmative.
And, for what it's worth, Amarillo is part of the Midwest to me. Its longitude is only about 40 miles west of the Kansas town I grew up in and, as I said, nobody where I grew up thinks of their region as anything
but the Midwest. To me, the TX/NM state line is a rough approximation of the western edge of the Midwest, similar to the KS/CO state line. There are a handful of spots in far eastern NM and far eastern CO that could be part of the Midwest, but just pieces of a small sliver.
I have never come across a Plains state resident saying "I'm not a Midwesterner, I'm a Plainsian" or whatever.
Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.
Common thought is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest. It is more gradual than that, and I seem to think San Antonio is the dividing line between the two.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2023, 06:39:39 PM
Common thought[by whom?] is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest.
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 04, 2023, 11:49:50 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware). The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".
Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:27:07 AM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 04, 2023, 11:49:50 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware). The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".
Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.
Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2023, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:33:39 AM
ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI. Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.
I've lived in Kansas most of my life–both western and eastern Kansas–and everyone here thinks of the state as being part of the Midwest. As for the Garden City area: this discussion prompted me earlier to ask my good friends, who grew up in Meade and Fowler, if that part of the state is in the Midwest or not, and they answered in the affirmative.
And, for what it's worth, Amarillo is part of the Midwest to me. Its longitude is only about 40 miles west of the Kansas town I grew up in and, as I said, nobody where I grew up thinks of their region as anything but the Midwest. To me, the TX/NM state line is a rough approximation of the western edge of the Midwest, similar to the KS/CO state line. There are a handful of spots in far eastern NM and far eastern CO that could be part of the Midwest, but just pieces of a small sliver.
There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east. Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.
Texas is a tough one because because it's "like a whole other country" and thus harder to characterize. Though having been there, I wouldn't say that Amarillo is "midwestern" either. Oklahoma and Texas seem to have a more gradual transition from east to west than you find farther north. One thing about which there can be no debate: El Paso is in the west. :D
Quote from: Rothman on January 05, 2023, 08:29:17 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:27:07 AM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 04, 2023, 11:49:50 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware). The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".
Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.
Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.
Next, you'll try to tell me that Atlantic City is southern too. Well, perhaps when compared with Utica....
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2023, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2023, 06:39:39 PM
Common thought[by whom?] is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest.
Those people
I was just in Citrus County, FL from December 24-28, about an hour north of Tampa. Definitely felt like the South. Lots of gun shops, Republican bumper stickers and billboards despite being outside election season (but almost never the same thing twice!), and everything was quite spread out with 20-minute drives for local shopping/restaurants/etc. being typical. Boiled peanuts and Waffle House also exist in the area.
That said, the first three things (guns, GOP, things spread out) wouldn't be out of place in Idaho, but I can definitely say that the dividing line in Florida of "too far south to be The South" is south of this point.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:39:06 AM
There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east. Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.
Again: I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be
anything but the Midwest. And again: I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.
I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess. But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 10:57:32 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:39:06 AM
There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east. Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.
Again: I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest. And again: I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.
I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess. But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.
I think that I did go out of my way to call out Kansas as being farther east-ish than it's other neighbors on the plains. That said, people can think as they please but western Kansas does offer elements of "the west" as well as some southern/Texan-ish influence too in the SW. Midwestern? Definitely more so than the western parts of SD and NE. But Indiana it ain't.
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 10:57:32 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:39:06 AM
There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east. Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.
Again: I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest. And again: I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.
I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess. But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.
This isn't to pick on
StogieGuy7, but AARoads is where you come to be told by people who don't live near you and haven't spent much time in your home area just exactly how your area should be defined.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 11:23:56 AM
But Indiana it ain't.
A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields? Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 12:52:33 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 11:23:56 AM
But Indiana it ain't.
A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields? Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.
To be fair, even eastern Colorado towns have more of a midwestern feel, but all the high-plains prairies also have a much more western feel than Ohio which I get is the "eastern" end of the midwest, or even Indiana or Illinois.
I recently drove US 36 to clinch from Ohio to Denver. I'd say maybe an hour west of St. Joseph MO, it definitely started the transition to the "feel" of the west. By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" as distinct from the "mountain west" of the front range and points west, or the southwest of the San Luis valley as well as New Mexico and Arizona.
The "great plains west" distinction to me is that towns become much fewer and farther between, the farmland is much more undeveloped or pivot irrigation is required, you can usually see for many miles in every direction, and you're typically above a base of 1500 feet of elevation.
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 10:57:32 AM
I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.
Quote from: zzcarp on January 05, 2023, 01:35:39 PM
By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" ...
And yet Oberlin is directly
east of where I grew up.
Quote from: zzcarp on January 05, 2023, 01:35:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 12:52:33 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 11:23:56 AM
But Indiana it ain't.
A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields? Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.
To be fair, even eastern Colorado towns have more of a midwestern feel, but all the high-plains prairies also have a much more western feel than Ohio which I get is the "eastern" end of the midwest, or even Indiana or Illinois.
I recently drove US 36 to clinch from Ohio to Denver. I'd say maybe an hour west of St. Joseph MO, it definitely started the transition to the "feel" of the west. By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" as distinct from the "mountain west" of the front range and points west, or the southwest of the San Luis valley as well as New Mexico and Arizona.
The "great plains west" distinction to me is that towns become much fewer and farther between, the farmland is much more undeveloped or pivot irrigation is required, you can usually see for many miles in every direction, and you're typically above a base of 1500 feet of elevation.
A fair point. There's a climatological divide right around that 100 deg W median, where Gulf moisture starts to be picked up by the jet stream and the land below quickly transitions from being primarily brown to primarily green. Actually, when I lived in Colorado Springs some 30 years ago, it too felt Midwestern as a large percentage of the people there were Midwesterners. More Californians along the Front Range now. As for the roads being in a grid pattern; that's what you'll find used on flatter areas that were developed after 1830 or so. Much of the west is also developed similarly.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2023, 12:43:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 10:57:32 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:39:06 AM
There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east. Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.
Again: I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest. And again: I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.
I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess. But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.
This isn't to pick on StogieGuy7, but AARoads is where you come to be told by people who don't live near you and haven't spent much time in your home area just exactly how your area should be defined.
Been to every place I referred to - more than once. No, haven't lived in Kansas but have lived in Colorado and traveled extensively through the region. You don't have to live in Kimball, NE to tell that it's not New England.
No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.
Hot n' humid = The South
Hot n' dry = The Southwest
Wherever you wanna draw that line thru Texas, I figure.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2023, 03:56:24 PM
No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.
I still have the hardest time with the Midwest. If someone says they are from the Midwest, I think they are from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin or possibly Iowa (the last one is debatable, depends on where in Iowa). Anything outside of those states basically I don't even consider. For clarity, this is my opinion, and not based on any fact.
For the middle states, it isn't hard. The Rocky Mountains and the ranchland in its rain shadow are the beginning of the West. East of that point, it's the Midwest. There's nothing in between the West and the Midwest. There's no Midwest½ region.
It's only at the more northerly and southerly latitudes that it gets wonky.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 05, 2023, 04:34:42 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2023, 03:56:24 PM
No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.
I still have the hardest time with the Midwest. If someone says they are from the Midwest, I think they are from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin or possibly Iowa (the last one is debatable, depends on where in Iowa). Anything outside of those states basically I don't even consider. For clarity, this is my opinion, and not based on any fact.
And I was born in Minnesota and lived for a long time in Kansas. And I called both of those places the Midwest.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:40:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 05, 2023, 08:29:17 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 05, 2023, 08:27:07 AM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 04, 2023, 11:49:50 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 04, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 04, 2023, 11:38:09 AM
I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south
South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.
Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware). The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".
Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.
Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.
Next, you'll try to tell me that Atlantic City is southern too. Well, perhaps when compared with Utica....
Well, no, because that's silly. But, just like Atlanta isn't representative of the entire South, Baltimore's culture is similarly another unique flavor of Southern culture.
I love the battle here between the two "Midwests". But part of this issue is related to how relatively few years we are removed from the British colonies. As the "frontier" moved further and further west, the names and meanings have changed. But those of us who are descended from the early settlers (or taught by them) still refer to the old names. Like when we refer to Cleveland as the "Western Reserve" and the rest of Ohio as the "Northwest Territory". When I was growing up, the old folks in West Virginia still referred to Southwestern Pennsylvania and Northwest Pennsylvania as part of the "Midwest". Bet that wasn't on your radar screen.
I've gave this a lot of thought and these are the states I'd consider Midwestern.
Ohio
Indiana (my home state)
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
Missouri
Minnesota
Iowa
N&S Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas
Oklahoma
Kentucky
I know I'll get some flack for including Kentucky and Oklahoma, but those states feel much more Midwestern than Southern to me. Historically, Kentucky actually ended up siding with the North about a year into the Civil War after initially declaring neutrality. Nearly 4X the amount of Kentuckians fought for the Union as the Confederacy (125K vs 35K). Oklahoma on the other hand wasn't even a state back then, but it has more in common with Kansas and west Texas than the South. I say if the other 4 plains states are included in the Midwest category (as they should be) then most of Oklahoma should also be included.
I will agree with you that most of Oklahoma seems to belong in the Midwest culturally. The president of my university in Tulsa refers to the area as the "Midwest", so clearly there is some precedent there among residents for including at least some of Oklahoma in the Midwest. Tulsa to me seems more like Wichita or Topeka than it does like Dallas or Little Rock, so I wouldn't say it necessarily belongs in the south or the Texas sub-region.
That being said, parts of Oklahoma do belong in the south. Anything in Oklahoma east of US 271 is definitely southern. I was eating at a Whataburger in Tulsa a couple months ago and a bus full of FFA kids from Antlers came in (presumably they were attending some sort of event in the Tulsa area), and most of them had southern accents.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2023, 06:36:54 PM
Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.
Suffolk is absolutely southern, but for the most part you're right. Norfolk, Portsmouth, and the northern cities don't feel that way, and most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach have grown more urban/suburban, but the areas along the VA/NC border in those two cities still feel southern.
Quote from: CoreySamson on January 05, 2023, 08:48:03 PM
I will agree with you that most of Oklahoma seems to belong in the Midwest culturally. The president of my university in Tulsa refers to the area as the "Midwest", so clearly there is some precedent there among residents for including at least some of Oklahoma in the Midwest. Tulsa to me seems more like Wichita or Topeka than it does like Dallas or Little Rock, so I wouldn't say it necessarily belongs in the south or the Texas sub-region.
That being said, parts of Oklahoma do belong in the south. Anything in Oklahoma east of US 271 is definitely southern. I was eating at a Whataburger in Tulsa a couple months ago and a bus full of FFA kids from Antlers came in (presumably they were attending some sort of event in the Tulsa area), and most of them had southern accents.
Off the top of my head, I'd probably draw the line at east of US-75 and south of I-40, though you could make an argument for individual towns or counties. (If you said Ada was Southern I'd probably agree there's an argument to be made there that it is.)
Here is how my BIL in MS makes "Sweet Tea".
Boil 5 or 6 quart sized teabags in a 2-quart saucepan (generally starts with around a 3 pints of water)
Boil them HARD for around 10 minutes.
Put half a 4# bag of sugar in the bottom of an empty gallon pitcher.
Pour the tea (usually bags and all) over the sugar.
Allow the sugar to melt (5-10 minutes)
Fish out the bags if they were not previously removed.
Stir well
Top the pitcher with water.
Pour over ice and drink.
SIL (his wife) does it basically the same way. She removes the bags and stirs the steaming tea into the sugar then allows it to sit and melt.
Here is how my grandmother in NE Texas made tea that was sweet.
Use 3 or 4 quart tea bags.
Bring about 3 pints of water to a hard boil.
Remove it from the burner and immediately add the tea bags. Cover the pan with its lid (or a plate or large saucer)
Allow it to sit until it is mostly cooled (My Mom was a stickler for time but she didn't even drink tea.)
Pour it up in a gallon pitcher.
Add around a cup and a half of sugar.
Top it off with water.
Serve it over ice.
I prefer my tea a little stronger (4 bags for 3 quarts). But I do NOT want ANY sugar, lemon, nor mint in it. Just tea and water.
Quote from: US 41 on January 05, 2023, 08:18:56 PM
I've gave this a lot of thought and these are the states I'd consider Midwestern.
Ohio
Indiana (my home state)
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
Missouri
Minnesota
Iowa
N&S Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas
Oklahoma
Kentucky
I know I'll get some flack for including Kentucky and Oklahoma, but those states feel much more Midwestern than Southern to me. Historically, Kentucky actually ended up siding with the North about a year into the Civil War after initially declaring neutrality. Nearly 4X the amount of Kentuckians fought for the Union as the Confederacy (125K vs 35K). Oklahoma on the other hand wasn't even a state back then, but it has more in common with Kansas and west Texas than the South. I say if the other 4 plains states are included in the Midwest category (as they should be) then most of Oklahoma should also be included.
I agree that Oklahoma is, in general, in the Midwest. There are parts of it that aren't very Midwestern but, if we have to go by state lines, then I'm counting it.
Kentucky doesn't seem Midwestern to me, though. It's more Southern, even if it isn't the "real South". I'm not so sure about including it, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Missouri is the real oddball. It doesn't seem to want to fit anywhere. If you cross a Tennessee hillbilly with a Nebraska pig farmer–that's what Missouri is.
I feel like Missouri and West Virginia are the two toughest states to assign, especially if you have to use the full state.
Quote from: US 89 on November 26, 2022, 02:50:07 AM
Too expansive. In my experience, the south should not include anything along or west of the I-45 corridor in Texas, nor anything in Oklahoma west of US 69.
Most of Oklahoma and Kansas and even most of northern Texas I would identify as a “Southern Plains” region that shares some features with the south but has stronger affinities with the Midwest, with some western or Mexican influence the farther west or south you go. Tulsa feels way more similar to Omaha than Little Rock. Dallas feels more like Kansas City than Shreveport. And so on…
Most people in the rest of Louisiana (figuratively) think Shreveport IS part of Texas. Bossier City feels just like Longview or Waco. Shreveport proper is a majority minority city is why it doesn't feel like Dallas.
If you want to divide these states up, look back 30 years at the legacy college football conferences.
The Southwest Conference: Texas and Arkansas.
The Southeast Conference: Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Florida
THE ACC:Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas,Maryland, and Virginia.
The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is. The Big 8: Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Colorado.
There are transitional areas that don't neatly fit this. SE Oklahoma fits better with Texas as does NW Louisiana. Extreme eastern Arkansas fits better with the deep south.
Texas is like two completely different places with the east being notably more southern than the part from a little east of US-83. The western portion being more ranching and east more farming.
Texas and Oklahoma are only part of the south if you divide it up according to the Union versus the Confederate States.
BTW, in Texas and NW LA, sweetened tea may have been served, but
Southern Sweet Tea (syrupy) is something that has crept into Texas, Arkansas , and Northern LA through the past couple of decades.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 05, 2023, 07:37:55 PM
I love the battle here between the two "Midwests". But part of this issue is related to how relatively few years we are removed from the British colonies. As the "frontier" moved further and further west, the names and meanings have changed. But those of us who are descended from the early settlers (or taught by them) still refer to the old names. Like when we refer to Cleveland as the "Western Reserve" and the rest of Ohio as the "Northwest Territory". When I was growing up, the old folks in West Virginia still referred to Southwestern Pennsylvania and Northwest Pennsylvania as part of the "Midwest". Bet that wasn't on your radar screen.
Yes, you make a good point here. This is why Northwestern University is not in Washington nor Oregon because it's in Evanston, IL. When it was established, that was the considered
the northwest.
People around western PA still do indeed consider themselves midwesterners as opposed to being in any way similar to those from eastern (espectially southeastern) PA. Coming from Chicago on business to Pittsburgh, it seems very much inland northeast to me, so I find it amusing that they consider it part of the midwest. It seems nothing like Illinois, Wisconsin nor Iowa (places I consider to be core Midwest). However, I can see why the locals think that way: they're on the western slope of the Appalachians, the climate is more like Ohio than it is like New Jersey, and (especially) the area's economy has long been tied to operations that are farther to the west - starting with the early dependence on the Ohio River for commerce.
So, the "Midwest" is as much a frame of mind as it is a region. Personally, I've long been of the opinion that Pittsburgh was the illegitimate child of West Virginia and Brooklyn - but that's just me. :)
Quote from: bwana39 on January 05, 2023, 11:08:06 PM
The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is.
The one exception is West Virginia University, which didn't enter the Southern Conference in 1950. Morgantown is right next to the Mason-Dixon Line, and resembles Uniontown more than it resembles Clarksburg (which probably isn't truly Southern, either). West Virginia's other university (Marshall) entered the conference in 1976 not quite 5 years after the plane crash. You could make a loose argument that Huntington, West Virginia is "Southern", and might even be slightly more "Southern" than neighboring Ashland, Kentucky.
You might also question whether George Washington (which entered the conference in 1941) counts as Southern, but I think one could make a loose argument that Washington, D.C. had the flair of a "Southern City" back in those days.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 05, 2023, 10:32:39 PM
Here is how my BIL in MS makes "Sweet Tea".
...
Here is how my grandmother in NE Texas made tea that was sweet.
Sweet tea barely tastes like tea at all. It's tea-colored sugar water; sorry y'all.
It's the Bud Light of tea.
Quote from: Takumi on January 05, 2023, 08:54:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2023, 06:36:54 PM
Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.
Suffolk is absolutely southern, but for the most part you're right. Norfolk, Portsmouth, and the northern cities don't feel that way, and most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach have grown more urban/suburban, but the areas along the VA/NC border in those two cities still feel southern.
When I lived in Portsmouth, it definitely felt Southern as did Suffolk and Norfolk (except Oceanview which is its own weirdness). Those of my neighbors who grew up in Portsmouth talked with Southern accents and their attitudes were definitely Southern, from their love of NASCAR to their dietary preferences. It also feels Southern not far from where you cross the canal into Great Bridge which is technically in Chesapeake. (Essentially, it becomes Southern when it starts looking rural.) But most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach are so new and full of transplants that it's more generic American, closer to Orlando or suburban North Dallas than any specific region.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 24, 2022, 05:21:27 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 24, 2022, 03:50:14 PM
Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing)
lol @ Lawton, OK being the "Deep South"
(And Altus not. Lawton and Altus are basically copy pastes of each other–southwestern Oklahoma towns with military installations. Unless you think the Army is somehow more Southern than the Air Force.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains
Good point it is on the Great Plains area. Oklahoma is a plains state.
I personally divide things into 4 regions (lower 48): Northeast, Midwest, South, and West.
NE (11): MD, PA, DE, NJ, NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME
MW (14): OH, IN, MI, KY, IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, OK, KS, NE, SD, ND
S (10): VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, TN, AL, MS, LA, AR
W (11): NM, CO, WY, MT, ID, UT, NV, AZ, CA, OR, WA
Wildcards (2): Texas and West Virginia
Texas: The western half of the state is mostly western, while the eastern third is mostly southern. Then you have south Texas which is a completely different animal altogether. Most people in Texas consider themselves Texan first. For about a decade it was its own country. Texas is in a transitioning geographical area, has a complicated history, and is also too big to be considered one region.
WV: West VA is completely in a sub-region called Appalachia. It broke off from VA during the Civil War to join the North, so it's not really Southern. It's too far east to be Midwestern, and it's too far south to be Northeastern. Due to the very rugged mountains it's really a state that is very isolated from everywhere else.
Other explanations:
Delaware and Maryland are south of the outdated Mason-Dixon line. However both states today are Northeastern culturally, which is why I include them in the NE region. Neither state actually left the Union during the Civil War either. Maryland and Delaware are also both tiny states similar to other NE states such as MA, CT, RI, VT, and NH.
The bottom fourth of Kentucky is arguably Southern, but the rest of the state is not. The state stuck with the North during the Civil War and 4X the amount of Kentuckians served for the North than the South. There was an attempt to have a Confederate government in Bowling Green, that failed miserably. Simply put KY is too far north to be southern. It lies directly south of Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois; while sitting directly east of Missouri, all of which are Midwestern states.
Virginia: It's north of the rest of the South, however it is southern. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. They had Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Most of the state is east of the Appalachian Mountains and is separated from the North by the Chesapeake Bay and the Potomac River.
Southern Missouri is very similar to Kentucky. It is a Midwestern state. It may be more hillbilly than neighboring Iowa, Kansas, and Illinois, but it's still part of the Midwest. As for the Southern stuff, there were people there that wanted to be part of the Confederacy and actually put up a hell of a fight. However Missouri never actually left the Union either. There was a Missouri Confederate government that was actually more successful than the disastrous attempt in KY. I am willing to grant Southerness to the section of SE Missouri that lies between Arkansas and Tennessee.
Oklahoma is a Great Plains state. SE Oklahoma is pretty southern, but the rest of the state shares more in common with the other plains states that are always considered to be part of the Midwest.
Quote from: US 41 on January 08, 2023, 08:49:05 AM
Virginia: It's north of the rest of the South, however it is southern. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. They had Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Most of the state is east of the Appalachian Mountains and is separated from the North by the Chesapeake Bay and the Potomac River.
Technically correct on Stonewall Jackson, but that is because he died 41 days before his "home state" of West Virginia was created.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 05, 2023, 11:08:06 PM
If you want to divide these states up, look back 30 years at the legacy college football conferences.
The Southwest Conference: Texas and Arkansas.
The Southeast [sic] Conference: Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Florida
THE ACC:Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas,Maryland, and Virginia.
The SEC and the ACC were originally together as the SOUTHERN CONFERENCE (1921). This may perfectly describe where the south is.
The Big 8: Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Colorado.
Go back a little further and the lines are even more clear. The ACC didn't enter Georgia until 1978 and didn't enter Florida until 1991. Both of those states fit in the Southeastern Conference region based on legacy NCAA affiliation.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 06, 2023, 09:32:49 AMPeople around western PA still do indeed consider themselves midwesterners as opposed to being in any way similar to those from eastern (espectially southeastern) PA. Coming from Chicago on business to Pittsburgh, it seems very much inland northeast to me, so I find it amusing that they consider it part of the midwest. It seems nothing like Illinois, Wisconsin nor Iowa (places I consider to be core Midwest). However, I can see why the locals think that way: they're on the western slope of the Appalachians, the climate is more like Ohio than it is like New Jersey, and (especially) the area's economy has long been tied to operations that are farther to the west - starting with the early dependence on the Ohio River for commerce.
Pittsburgh is located in one of the 13 original colonies, which automatically disqualifies it from being Midwestern. Furthermore, its economic ties to the Midwest have been eroded since the deindustrialization of the late 20th century, and now its cultural ties to the Midwest are beginning to erode with the mass influx of people from the East Coast megalopolis.
Quote from: jgb191 on November 27, 2022, 02:27:46 AM
My hometown feels so left out. Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west. Then where do we fit in? I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do. Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
Corpus Christi feels more like southern Florida than any other part of Texas, IMHO.
It doesn't feel like the rest of the Rio Grande area but much more laid back than the Houston metro. Proximity to beaches and fishing changes a lot of attitudes, economies, deference to environment...
IMHO, vis certain states, starting with the one I know best.
West Virginia, I always explain when asked, is made up of different parts each of which is much more like the places they border than they are one another.
The southern coalfields are classical Appalachia, and are culturally and economically a part of eastern Kentucky, and certainly "southern".
The Ohio Valley, south of the panhandle, is the fringe Rust Belt, and tied to southern and more specifically south eastern Ohio. The difference is the proportion of black to white (owing the WV being a Jim Crow state) and the proportion of white Appalachians/white non Appalachians (owing to it being, well, in Appalachia) is different. This makes it still southern, but just barely.
The northern panhandle and the Fairmont-Clarksburg-Morgantown area are the true Rust Belt, an extension of western Pennsylvania. Northern.
The "empty quarter" of WV, the highlands where not very many people live, which means the area where there was not much coal and which was too rugged for railroads and then good roads, is just like similar parts of Virginia and even places like upper east Tennessee. It is a culturally southern.
South east WV is just like the other hilly counties of Virginia that surround the Great Valley. Culturally much more like central Virginia. Certainly southern.
Then comes the three counties of eastern panhandle. 40 years ago, just like the other Great Valley Virginia counties and the most "southern" part of the state. These were rural areas of marginal agricultural uses. Of course, 70 years ago the same could have been said about places yet closer to DC. Today all of it is suburban or exurban. DC is neither north nor south nor anything. It is a pool of self-selected people from all over. Once, but no longer southern.
As to some other states, while there is a transition in much of the country, the eastern shore of Maryland and Delaware have a line. When are north of the C&D canal, you are as north as north can be. Philadelphia. South of it and the culture becomes way southern, almost deep southern very quickly.
Kentucky is the south, unless you are north of the watertower for Florence "Florence Y'all". For south bound travelers from places like Detroit, it is that easy to know where the border is.
Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV. The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 17, 2023, 12:28:54 PM
Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV. The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.
Roughly:
Kansas City - Kansas
Joplin - Oklahoma
Springfield - NW Arkansas
St. Louis - Kentucky
St. Joseph - Nebraska
Bethany - Iowa
Hannibal - Rural Illinois
Columbia - The not nice parts of Chicago
Cape Girardeau - Tennessee
Branson - The "rest of Arkansas"
Lake of the Ozarks - Nevada
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 17, 2023, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on January 17, 2023, 12:28:54 PM
Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV. The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.
St. Louis - Kentucky
WTF??? I lived in St Louis for close to three decades and never once thought it looked like or felt like Kentucky. It also doesn't border Kentucky; Illinois is directly across the river while Kentucky is about 100 miles south. St Louis looks more like Pittsburgh than it does anything in Kentucky though I'd say it looks more like a bigger and dirtier version of the Quad Cities a couple hundred miles to the north than anywhere else.
St Louis is far from Kentucky and no way resembles it. Maybe Louisville, but not the entire state.
St. Louis has always reminded me of Cincinnati, neither of which are southern. Heavy German influence, admixed with white mountain people who there from poor mountain places not that far away. This shows in the unusual cuisine, the preference for baseball over football, focus on neighborhoods and what high school one went to, and complex web of ethnic based religion.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 18, 2023, 12:23:56 PM
St. Louis has always reminded me of Cincinnati, neither of which are southern. Heavy German influence, admixed with white mountain people who there from poor mountain places not that far away. This shows in the unusual cuisine, the preference for baseball over football, focus on neighborhoods and what high school one went to, and complex web of ethnic based religion.
This one is a fair comparison. STL and CIN do have a lot in common: similar scenery, similar culture, similar climate, etc. Not exactly the same, of course, but each is similarly a mix of Midwest and South/border state cultures. Put another way, St. Louis seems to have more in common culturally with Cincy than with Kansas City - which is more of a central plains city.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 17, 2023, 12:28:54 PM
IMHO, vis certain states, starting with the one I know best.
West Virginia, I always explain when asked, is made up of different parts each of which is much more like the places they border than they are one another.
The southern coalfields are classical Appalachia, and are culturally and economically a part of eastern Kentucky, and certainly "southern".
The Ohio Valley, south of the panhandle, is the fringe Rust Belt, and tied to southern and more specifically south eastern Ohio. The difference is the proportion of black to white (owing the WV being a Jim Crow state) and the proportion of white Appalachians/white non Appalachians (owing to it being, well, in Appalachia) is different. This makes it still southern, but just barely.
The northern panhandle and the Fairmont-Clarksburg-Morgantown area are the true Rust Belt, an extension of western Pennsylvania. Northern.
The "empty quarter" of WV, the highlands where not very many people live, which means the area where there was not much coal and which was too rugged for railroads and then good roads, is just like similar parts of Virginia and even places like upper east Tennessee. It is a culturally southern.
South east WV is just like the other hilly counties of Virginia that surround the Great Valley. Culturally much more like central Virginia. Certainly southern.
Then comes the three counties of eastern panhandle. 40 years ago, just like the other Great Valley Virginia counties and the most "southern" part of the state. These were rural areas of marginal agricultural uses. Of course, 70 years ago the same could have been said about places yet closer to DC. Today all of it is suburban or exurban. DC is neither north nor south nor anything. It is a pool of self-selected people from all over. Once, but no longer southern.
As to some other states, while there is a transition in much of the country, the eastern shore of Maryland and Delaware have a line. When are north of the C&D canal, you are as north as north can be. Philadelphia. South of it and the culture becomes way southern, almost deep southern very quickly.
Kentucky is the south, unless you are north of the watertower for Florence "Florence Y'all". For south bound travelers from places like Detroit, it is that easy to know where the border is.
Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV. The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.
This is spot on about West Virginia. The counties near Pennsylvania are where you start seeing true Italian restaurants rather than glorified pizza places billed as "Italian restaurants" . Southeastern WV feels more like general West Virginia to me than anywhere in Central VA like Appomattox or Farmville.
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
Quote from: skluth on January 18, 2023, 11:47:17 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 17, 2023, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on January 17, 2023, 12:28:54 PM
Missouri, which I have only been in a few times, strikes me as just like WV. The different parts are more like the states they border than one another.
St. Louis - Kentucky
WTF??? I lived in St Louis for close to three decades and never once thought it looked like or felt like Kentucky. It also doesn't border Kentucky; Illinois is directly across the river while Kentucky is about 100 miles south. St Louis looks more like Pittsburgh than it does anything in Kentucky though I'd say it looks more like a bigger and dirtier version of the Quad Cities a couple hundred miles to the north than anywhere else.
Honestly, I think St. Louis reminds me of Louisville or suburban Cinci. Not Kentucky at large. I should have rephrased.
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
You could argue Denver to some degree.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.
East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South. Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.
East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South. Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.
I'd be fine with Oklahoma City being considered a border city, though I might argue what it's on the borders of, exactly. OKC is pretty much a watered-down Dallas, which is fine, but you have to consider what the "water" is. And I suppose that's whatever Kansas City is.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.
East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South. Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.
Bluntly, I didn't read the preceding batch of quotes that led to the border city convo, so I was just considering which cities were "inflection points". And, I've had a glass of bourbon. :)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 21, 2023, 10:19:27 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 21, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on January 21, 2023, 09:01:57 PM
I think Baltimore, Louisville, and maybe Oklahoma City are the quintessential border cities.
I'd add Cincinnati.
You could argue Denver to some degree.
Wut.
East of Denver, Colorado is largely no different than western Kansas, i.e. Midwestern. I was thinking border cities of regions in general, not necessarily the South. Reading the proceeding quotes, I wouldn't put Baltimore as a border city of the South, Washington serves that area better. Oklahoma City doesn't strike me as that either. Something like Muskogee is closer.
Nice tapdance.
Bluntly, I didn't read the preceding batch of quotes that led to the border city convo, so I was just considering which cities were "inflection points". And, I've had a glass of bourbon. :)
https://youtu.be/Lud3bgEJeTg
Having been in southeastern Ohio multiple times there is a border. Once you're north of the Ohio River you're in the Rust Belt. Marietta is a pretty depressed town. Parkersburg I'd also say is a "northern" city. Feels like you're in western Pennsylvania or northeast Ohio.
Also the television situation there is weird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.
Athens is the definition of "rust belt." If Ohio University wasn't there the town probably wouldn't even be more than a couple thousand people. Very depressed area.
Quote from: Sctvhound on January 22, 2023, 08:48:26 PM
Also the television situation there is oweird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.
The FCC's plan was for Parkersburg and Clarksburg to be one TV market. The terrain thought otherwise and both developed separately, historically (before ATSC and its ability to beam multiple signals in one) with Parkersburg having one station, NBC. The entire market consists of only Wood and Pleasants counties in WV and Washington county OH. With the Huntington/Charleston stations filling the gap in WV, and the Columbus stations filling the gap in OH. As such it has traditionally had among the most comical news casts in the country, with no budget and a coverage area of one backwater community where nothing happens. Still have to get a half hour of "news", which gets to the "they repainted the Piggly Wiggly" level, since nothing ever happens of actual importance.
Today the station belongs to Grey, which also owns stations in Huntington and Cincinnati and they just cut and paste from them.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 23, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: Sctvhound on January 22, 2023, 08:48:26 PM
Also the television situation there is oweird. ABC still comes from Columbus in Marietta while Parkersburg has their own set of small-time affiliates for every other network.
The FCC's plan was for Parkersburg and Clarksburg to be one TV market. The terrain thought otherwise and both developed separately, historically (before ATSC and its ability to beam multiple signals in one) with Parkersburg having one station, NBC. The entire market consists of only Wood and Pleasants counties in WV and Washington county OH. With the Huntington/Charleston stations filling the gap in WV, and the Columbus stations filling the gap in OH. As such it has traditionally had among the most comical news casts in the country, with no budget and a coverage area of one backwater community where nothing happens. Still have to get a half hour of "news", which gets to the "they repainted the Piggly Wiggly" level, since nothing ever happens of actual importance.
Today the station belongs to Grey, which also owns stations in Huntington and Cincinnati and they just cut and paste from them.
And Lexington and Hazard, as well. A lot of WSAZ's traditional coverage area in Kentucky now gets reported on by someone from Hazard, which provides the clips to WSAZ.
I got interviewed a couple of weeks ago by a reporter from Hazard. I don't think the interview ever aired on WYMT, but I heard from several people who saw it on WKYT in Lexington.
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".
That's going to break down if you try to apply it to north Florida, which is absolutely southern but does have a limited Wawa presence. The one right off 75 in Gainesville comes to mind.
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".
It's like the "you are west" rule if you have an In-N-Out, but then Texas got them and now they are going to Tennessee.
Similarly is the Helmans/Best Foods rule. It's Helmans east of the Rockies, but I know you can find Best Foods east of the Rockies; I found Best Foods in El Paso.
Quote from: US 89 on January 30, 2023, 07:58:46 AM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AM
For those that are debating whether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa is definitely not Southern. Areas without a Wawa are not necessarily Southern, but may be. I'm going to call this the "Wawa Rule".
That’s going to break down if you try to apply it to north Florida, which is absolutely southern but does have a limited Wawa presence. The one right off 75 in Gainesville comes to mind.
That's why I specified any area *there*:
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 05:36:10 AMwhether parts of Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are in the South or not: Any area there with a Wawa
The rule doesn't apply to Florida because areas there with a Wawa are near universally considered Southern and doesn't need to have many distinctions made (nor is the rule meant to be taken very seriously).
The whole logic behind the joke is that areas in the lower Mid-Atlantic with a Wawa are closer to the more mainstream culture in the region which has been becoming more and more Northern as time goes on, as opposed to the more rural, Southern holdouts which are not major enough or economically linked up to bigger Mid-Atlantic cities to justify having a Wawa there. Having a Wawa is sort of an indicator as to how Northern/non-Southern a particular area in one of those states might be.
Wawa has a presence in Richmond. Any argument that puts forth the position that Richmond is not a part of the South is laughable. The capital of the Confederacy isn't southern?
Quote from: hbelkins on January 30, 2023, 10:42:18 AM
Wawa has a presence in Richmond. Any argument that puts forth the position that Richmond is not a part of the South is laughable. The capital of the Confederacy isn't southern?
Richmond, owing to its strong historical ties, is definitely in the South (*As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?*).
But if anyone wants an actual, serious insight:
Having been to RVA plenty of times, I feel more in the Northeast Megalopolis than I do the South, and I get more of a Northern feel from the urban core and immediate residential periphery. Most other Southern cities don't have its row houses, brownstones, and relatively extensive density outside the business district that you can more commonly find in the Northeast. Geographically and historically it is Southern, yes...
...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.
Everything south of the Mason-Dixon Line and Ohio River to Cairo, IL; + Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas. Maybe Southern Missouri. Essentially, where there was slavery in 1860. The South is defined by Slavery.
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?
Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.
In all honesty, i agree. To me, that area -- and the Hampton Roads area, to be honest -- gives me more of a northeastern vibe than a southern vibe these days.
And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 31, 2023, 03:20:00 PM
And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.
Did somebody say something here about Bluegrass music? Break out your fiddle, your banjo, your dobro and your dulcimer (or even better, a zither).
Going with that, what about I-70? There are some cities I-70 goes through that you may consider southern, yet others that are very not southern. Example, St. Louis. Now, I know most will not think of it as southern, but Missouri was considered a southern state, and as the "flagship" city of Missouri, it has a southern feel to it...my opinion, even though geographically it's the Mid-west.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 31, 2023, 07:30:02 PM
Did somebody say something here about Bluegrass music? Break out your fiddle, your banjo, your dobro and your dulcimer (or even better, a zither).
If the Bluegrass music scene is a definition of "The South" then Colorado's robust scene on the front range and mountains along with major festivals from Steamboat to Telluride to Golden would fit. I'd suggest few if any bluegrass fans here in Colorado would consider themselves as part of the south.
^^^
Actually, the notion here was that those of us from Bluegrass Country (of Appalachia) is in our own little world.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?
Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?
This forum both can and can't take a joke.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 31, 2023, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
...But, based on my experiences and perception while there, it is more culturally and economically tied to the rest of the Northeast these days. Its infrastructure is closely intertwined with the North - I-95 is wider connecting to parts north. The city is also served by an Amtrak link to the NEC and has commuter service to DC. Virginia's largest cities are in an awkward transitional zone between North and South (except NoVA, which I consider fully Northern) and I think it can be fair to say that they are both these days.
In all honesty, i agree. To me, that area -- and the Hampton Roads area, to be honest -- gives me more of a northeastern vibe than a southern vibe these days.
And I see you list your current location as the place where US 321 goes south in all directions. To be honest, I don't get a southern vibe from that area of Tennessee. I get more of the same feeling I do in western North Carolina, southeastern Kentucky, southwestern Virginia, and most of West Virginia. It's a "mountain" feeling that transcends traditional geographic boundaries.
That is definitely a popular concept in the mountains - a lot of West Virginians identify as 'Appalachian' rather than Southern, despite many people from the outside considering West Virginia to be a part of the South. Due to its geographic position, it has influences of Midwestern, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Southern, and some people find it hard to classify based on that, but if there is one category it does fit into, it's Appalachian. Not many other areas have a history of things like fighting wars over coal.
Based on my experiences in East Tennessee and Western North Carolina, that cultural phenomenon isn't as commonplace. Many people in those two regions can and will identify as just plain 'Southern'.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: index on January 30, 2023, 08:25:25 PM
As stated above, I did not intend for my post to be taken seriously, this forum has got to take a joke every now and then. Y'all think I was serious about something called the "Wawa Rule" of all things?
Did you just accuse the forum that's the home of Alanland of being unable to take a joke?
This forum is pretty good at intercepting with ridiculous premise and running it back approximately 2 furlongs in the other direction for a touchdown; eventually calling it back because someone thought the play clock needed to use Series C numerals, not D. Eventually, it's overturned, but not before we find out that two members have sudden trypophobia from staring at the double-zeros on the game clock.
South = states with Waffle House
Quote from: OCGuy81 on February 03, 2023, 11:54:26 PM
South = states with Waffle House
Colorado then? Ok.
(https://www.scrapehero.com/store/wp-content/uploads/maps/Waffle_House_USA.png)
How to determine the true south and Midwest.
1A) Divide the country into East and West.
1B) If you have a field and didn't mow it for 5 years what would you come back to? If the answer is a wooded area then it is eastern and may qualify as Southern or Midwestern. If the answer is a grassland, then your area is Western.
2A) Was your state a Confederate state? If you answer yes, then your state is southern. If the answer is no then your state is not truly southern.
2B) If you answered no to 2A, was your state one of the original 13 colonies? If the answer is no, then you are part of the Midwest. Exceptions obviously are Vermont and Maine. If you live in WV then the answer to this question is yes as WV was part of VA at the time.
The South: VA, NC, SC, TN, GA, FL, AL, MS, AR, LA, eastern third of TX.
The Midwest: OH, MI, IN, KY, MO, IL, WI, MN, IA, and the eastern parts of ND, SD, NE, KS, and northeastern OK.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 26, 2022, 10:14:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2022, 09:55:49 PM
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.
I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.
Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.
They are the mid-Atlantic
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on November 26, 2022, 07:47:47 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:40:46 PM
Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County. (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west). To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that. (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)
Hundreds were common in the southern colonies prior to 1776. Virginia and North Carolina had them, although I don't think they were formally defined as any sort of subcounty unit.
They are the south, but distinctly 'Tidewater' which is different culturally in many ways from the deep south.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
Kentucky = upland/inland South as Tennessee and part Appalachia
WV = Appalachia
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 28, 2022, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2022, 11:02:01 AM
During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.
Indeed. Folks in St. Mary's County and much of Charles County in Maryland do still identify with the South.
Tidewater south.
East of Houston/Piney = South
Hou = Gulf
To me, the South is everything from Virginia and West Virginia southwest to Texas and Oklahoma.
Quote from: bluecountry on February 12, 2023, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 26, 2022, 10:14:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2022, 09:55:49 PM
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.
I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.
Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.
They are the mid-Atlantic
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on November 26, 2022, 07:47:47 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:40:46 PM
Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County. (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west). To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that. (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)
Hundreds were common in the southern colonies prior to 1776. Virginia and North Carolina had them, although I don’t think they were formally defined as any sort of subcounty unit.
They are the south, but distinctly 'Tidewater' which is different culturally in many ways from the deep south.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 28, 2022, 05:02:05 PM
What about Kentucky?
It’s like an in between, as it’s northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.
Kentucky = upland/inland South as Tennessee and part Appalachia
WV = Appalachia
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 28, 2022, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2022, 11:02:01 AM
During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.
Indeed. Folks in St. Mary's County and much of Charles County in Maryland do still identify with the South.
Tidewater south.
East of Houston/Piney = South
Hou = Gulf
What about the Gulf Coast South? I tend to not consider that southern (or at least the "Deep South" as some people think because they think the further south you go the deeper the south, when in reality the "Deep South" or Bible Belt is along the I-20 corridor, not the I-10 corridor) but more beach like and tends to lean more like liberal conservative.
Quote from: index on February 01, 2023, 04:30:34 PM
That is definitely a popular concept in the mountains - a lot of West Virginians identify as 'Appalachian' rather than Southern, despite many people from the outside considering West Virginia to be a part of the South. Due to its geographic position, it has influences of Midwestern, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Southern, and some people find it hard to classify based on that, but if there is one category it does fit into, it's Appalachian. Not many other areas have a history of things like fighting wars over coal.
What I find funny about this is West Virgnia broke away from Virgina to stay in the union to oppose slavery, so I never consider it south for that specific reason.