What place names did you think that it is, until you realized that it it spelled differently? For example, I thought that Massachusetts has two Ss between U and E, not one.
I thought Secaucus NJ was Seacaucus.
For a while I thought Weschester was Westchester.
I formerly often misspelled "Keweenaw" Peninsula as "Keewenaw" because the latter is what it sounds like when spoken.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 05, 2023, 06:01:54 PM
For a while I thought Weschester was Westchester.
That's because it is Westchester.
I thought Mackinac Island and Macinaw Island were 2 separate entities.
I used to think Greenwich, Connecticut was pronounced "Green - Witch" instead of Gren - itch" .
The cooler examples are the ones you hear first and guess a different spelling, not the ones you read on a map first and don't know whatever its weird local pronunciation is.
For lack of anything better coming to mind, when I moved to Tallahassee, people would talk about the "Ohclocknee River" every so often. Took me a bit to realize this was the same Ochlockonee River that formed the western boundary of Leon County. Yeah, I probably should have figured it out sooner, but this part of the country has a lot of similar-sounding native names - when I lived in Atlanta, I had Chattooga/Chattanooga/Chattahoochee all nearby referring to different things.
I remember when I was a kid I pronounced Sebewaing, Michigan as Swob-ing instead of See-buh-wing.
As a young kid I thought the "Too-sahn" in Arizona I kept hearing about was a different city from "Tucson" on the map.
I remember playing a video game and thinking Austria was Australia and Australia was Autostralia or something.
Also from a game: I was quite young, and it was a Flash game. I thought Cartagena was Cargentina (Argentina with a C).
I also thought France was Françe in its native language.
I thought Bolingbrook IL was Boilingbrook.
I thought South Memphis was its own city in Mississippi across the state line from Memphis.
I thought Tbilisi was Tblisi with three consonants in a row at the beginning.
Quote from: 1 on March 05, 2023, 04:43:21 PM
I thought Secaucus NJ was Seacaucus.
I thought Seacucus.
Up until quite recently, I thought Manlius (man-ly-us), NY was Manilus (man-ill-us).
This was most likely by association with Skaneateles, and I never bothered to look at the spelling close enough to notice.
I always called Yosemite National Park "yoze-mite".
Quote from: Henry on March 06, 2023, 09:55:06 PM
I always called Yosemite National Park "yoze-mite".
I do that to get a stir out my wife since that's her favorite place.
When I moved to Hanford, CA during 2016 I never heard anyone say the name of the city Visalia aloud. I knew it was an older city and assumed it was a Spanish word. Turns out the name comes from a family and town in Kentucky, it sounds pretty much how it is spelled.
Ponce de Leon I used to say as it's spelled, but omitting the e in Ponce. Until I learned it was pronounced with the e and the Leon is not like Leon on NCIS but Lay own.
However GA residents do call it Ponc D Lee On, and will correct you if you say it the Spanish way.
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 04:56:03 AM
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Zut alors!
Somehow I thought only the American Sault Ste. Marie was pronounced SOO-saint-muh-REE, and the Canadian one was pronounced "correctly" as SALT-saint-muh-REE.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 06, 2023, 09:59:44 PM
I knew it was an older city and assumed it was a Spanish word.
Same here, thought Amarillo TX was pronounced the Spanish way.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 04:56:03 AM
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Then there is the two ways Lafayette is spelled. La Fayette and Lafayette.
Don't ask me how to pronounce Opelousas, LA that I'm sure to butcher that one.
This thread reminds me of the joke about the kid who goes to California for the summer to visit his relatives. On the flight home, he starts talking to the old lady sitting next to him about what a good time he had in (what he pronounces as) San Joe's. She looks at him and says, "Young man, in California, the 'J' is pronounced like an 'H.' How long were you in San Ho-zay?" He thinks about it and responds, "For Hune and Huly."
Quote from: kirbykart on March 07, 2023, 08:06:07 AM
Somehow I thought only the American Sault Ste. Marie was pronounced SOO-saint-muh-REE, and the Canadian one was pronounced "correctly" as SALT-saint-muh-REE.
It's a French word so it's pronounced that way. It means Rapids of the St. Mary's. Actually the word Sault is pronounced SO in French, the American way pronounces it SU.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 07, 2023, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on March 07, 2023, 08:06:07 AM
Somehow I thought only the American Sault Ste. Marie was pronounced SOO-saint-muh-REE, and the Canadian one was pronounced "correctly" as SALT-saint-muh-REE.
It's a French word so it's pronounced that way. It means Rapids of the St. Mary's. Actually the word Sault is pronounced SO in French, the American way pronounces it SU.
There was a railroad based there called the Soo Line.
The Soo Locks are there also.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 07, 2023, 08:37:07 AM
The Soo Locks are there also.
Correct. They were built to bypass the rapids.
I've taken the boat tour and rode through them. Nice cruise I must say.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 07, 2023, 08:15:34 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 04:56:03 AM
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Then there is the two ways Lafayette is spelled. La Fayette and Lafayette.
Don't ask me how to pronounce Opelousas, LA that I'm sure to butcher that one.
LaFayette, NY...
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 07, 2023, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on March 07, 2023, 08:06:07 AM
Somehow I thought only the American Sault Ste. Marie was pronounced SOO-saint-muh-REE, and the Canadian one was pronounced "correctly" as SALT-saint-muh-REE.
It's a French word so it's pronounced that way. It means Rapids of the St. Mary's. Actually the word Sault is pronounced SO in French, the American way pronounces it SU.
Yeah I know, I thought this a few years ago.
I just learned within the last five years that the country of Kiribati is not pronounced "KEE-ri-BAH-tee" but rather "KEE-ri-boss".
When I was young (around 3 or 4), I thought Toronto was spelled like "TorNOto," pronouncing it like such. I suppose that's better than most toddlers, but I kept that inaccuracy until I was about 6, when I got around to looking at a map of Canada.
A lame example, but that's the only one I can think of right now.
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
On a more serious note, Wooster OH is pronounced identically to Worcester MA if you ignore local accent, but some will incorrectly pronounce the former as if it rhymed with "rooster" rather than having "oo" as in "foot".
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Control City Freak said "Wester". That might be the worse one yet.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
I used to get "War-chester" a lot from people back home who knew I went to WPI.
People also usually mix up Leicester. They pronounce it as "Lee - Chester" however, it's pronounced like Lester.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on March 07, 2023, 01:47:17 PM
People also usually mix up Leicester. They pronounce it as "Lee - Chester" however, it's pronounced like Lester.
Just found that out today apparently. But let's be honest in metro Boston probably about 5% of people have heard of Leicester.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Control City Freak said "Wester". That might be the worse one yet.
Pardon me for having to be the idiot then, but what is it? War-stir?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 07, 2023, 02:50:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Control City Freak said "Wester". That might be the worse one yet.
Pardon me for having to be the idiot then, but what is it? War-stir?
"Wooster" or "Wuster" basically
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 07, 2023, 02:50:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Control City Freak said "Wester". That might be the worse one yet.
Pardon me for having to be the idiot then, but what is it? War-stir?
"Wooster" or "Wuster" basically
Both of those spellings could be pronounced in more than one way. (And Liliana above said Wooster is wrong.)
Is the first vowel sound oo as in good or as in soon?
Or is it u as in fun or as in fuse?
Quote from: GaryV on March 07, 2023, 04:03:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 07, 2023, 02:50:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another one people get wrong is Worcester, MA. People call it Wooster for some reason.
Control City Freak said "Wester". That might be the worse one yet.
Pardon me for having to be the idiot then, but what is it? War-stir?
"Wooster" or "Wuster" basically
Both of those spellings could be pronounced in more than one way. (And Liliana above said Wooster is wrong.)
Is the first vowel sound oo as in good or as in soon?
Or is it u as in fun or as in fuse?
It was a joke. It is "oo" as in "good".
Quote from: flan on March 05, 2023, 09:20:34 PM
As a young kid I thought the "Too-sahn" in Arizona I kept hearing about was a different city from "Tucson" on the map.
I was similar - I thought it was people mispronouncing Tusayan, which I had stayed in on a trip to the Grand Canyon.
Quote from: US 89 on March 07, 2023, 08:21:13 PM
Quote from: flan on March 05, 2023, 09:20:34 PM
As a young kid I thought the "Too-sahn" in Arizona I kept hearing about was a different city from "Tucson" on the map.
I was similar - I thought it was people mispronouncing Tusayan, which I had stayed in on a trip to the Grand Canyon.
I was even worse. Until recently, I thought it was Tuscon (tuss-can), sort of like Aldi's Tuscan Garden brand of dressings etc.
The County in South Jersey as a youngster I would say Gloucester as Gl-ow sester until I learned it's Glaw ster.
Quote from: Big John on March 07, 2023, 08:33:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 07, 2023, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on March 07, 2023, 08:06:07 AM
Somehow I thought only the American Sault Ste. Marie was pronounced SOO-saint-muh-REE, and the Canadian one was pronounced "correctly" as SALT-saint-muh-REE.
It's a French word so it's pronounced that way. It means Rapids of the St. Mary's. Actually the word Sault is pronounced SO in French, the American way pronounces it SU.
There was a railroad based there called the Soo Line.
I used to believe that both Sault Ste. Maries (in both the US and Canada) were pronounced "salt".
Quote from: jlam on March 07, 2023, 01:03:28 PM
When I was young (around 3 or 4), I thought Toronto was spelled like "TorNOto," pronouncing it like such. I suppose that's better than most toddlers, but I kept that inaccuracy until I was about 6, when I got around to looking at a map of Canada.
A lame example, but that's the only one I can think of right now.
Funny, I wondered why a certain front-wheel-drive luxury car was named after the city, and so I referred to it as such until I learned some Canadian geography in elementary school.
I used to think there was a city in northern Colombia called Cartageña, because people say it wrong.
(see also: habañero, empañada.)
When I was little, my mom was talking about Denver, and I said "Isn't there one near here?" I was thinking of Danvers, MA.
At one point (also very little), I was also trying to list states, and India (rather than Indiana) was on the list.
Also, I've finally come to learn that, yes, both ways of pronouncing Qatar are correct (or at least equally close to being correct), and that people need to just get over themselves when they insist half the people are wrong. Not everyone who lives there even pronounces it exactly the same way...
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 09:58:33 AM
Also, I've finally come to learn that, yes, both ways of pronouncing Qatar are correct (or at least equally close to being correct), and that people need to just get over themselves when they insist half the people are wrong. Not everyone who lives there even pronounces it exactly the same way...
Both ways? I've heard probably five or six ways:
kuh-TAHR
CAT-tahr
cat-TAHR
KUH-turr
QUH-turr (where 'q' is like 'k' but uvular vs. velar, a.k.a. farther back in the mouth)
or properly, as it's pronounced in Arabic, QUH-Tur (where the 'capital T' is a guttural t, a.k.a kind of swallowed into the throat).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:54:30 AM
Both ways? I've heard probably five or six ways:
Yeah, I knew someone would say that. In fact, I was kind of hoping someone would.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:54:30 AM
or properly, as it's pronounced in Arabic, QUH-Tur (where the 'capital T' is a guttural t, a.k.a kind of swallowed into the throat).
You're pretending that everyone who actually lives in Qatar pronounces it the same way.
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 12:13:08 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:54:30 AM
or properly, as it's pronounced in Arabic, QUH-Tur (where the 'capital T' is a guttural t, a.k.a kind of swallowed into the throat).
You're pretending that everyone who actually lives in Qatar pronounces it the same way.
Well, people that live there that speak Arabic likely pronounce it the same way. Americans on an army base, likely not.
My wife insists I don't pronounce "Yakima" correctly, but I can't hear a difference from how she says it. I do wish I could cure her of saying "EYE-talian" though.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 12:25:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 12:13:08 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:54:30 AM
or properly, as it's pronounced in Arabic, QUH-Tur (where the 'capital T' is a guttural t, a.k.a kind of swallowed into the throat).
You're pretending that everyone who actually lives in Qatar pronounces it the same way.
Well, people that live there that speak Arabic likely pronounce it the same way. Americans on an army base, likely not.
I'm no expert in Arabic by any stretch of the imagination, but my basic understanding is this:
QUH-tarrr ← official pronuciation
quh-TARRR ← common among city dwellers, such as among Doha residents.
guh-TARRR ← common among rural and other lower-class folk.
And all of them are pronounced with a more guttural, closed-throat sound for all of the consonants, as you mentioned with the letter
t.
Yeah. I forgot that Gulf Arabic replaces the 'q' sound with 'g' for ق - qaaf.
I took two years of Arabic in college.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:24:17 PM
Yeah. I forgot that Gulf Arabic replaces the 'q' sound with 'g' for ق - qaaf.
To the point that, outside of the upper-class residents of Doha, a lot of locals say something closer to the English word 'guitar' then anything else.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 07, 2023, 12:31:52 AM
Ponce de Leon I used to say as it's spelled, but omitting the e in Ponce. Until I learned it was pronounced with the e and the Leon is not like Leon on NCIS but Lay own.
However GA residents do call it Ponc D Lee On, and will correct you if you say it the Spanish way.
Speaking of Georgia, Houston County is pronounced like Howston.
Quote from: golden eagle on March 13, 2023, 01:17:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 07, 2023, 12:31:52 AM
Ponce de Leon I used to say as it's spelled, but omitting the e in Ponce. Until I learned it was pronounced with the e and the Leon is not like Leon on NCIS but Lay own.
However GA residents do call it Ponc D Lee On, and will correct you if you say it the Spanish way.
Speaking of Georgia, Houston County is pronounced like Howston.
So is Houston Street in NYC.
That's cause Houston Street and Houston, TX were not named for the same person, but in New York it was named for a man who's surname was pronounced as Howston.
And Houston, DE.
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 09:58:33 AM
... Not everyone who lives there even pronounces it exactly the same way...
The same is true for Cincinnati (which is often mis-spelled as Cincinatti). Most of us pronounce it sin-si-na-tee, but a not insignificant minority (mostly west siders) pronounce it sin-si-nat-uh.
There is a suburb here spelled Mariemont. it is correctly pronounced mary-mont, but many people pronounce it marie-mont. Even though it's spelled with an ie, it was named for Mary Emery, a philanthropist who donated the land on which the planned community was built in the 1920s.
My father once misread a mileage sign on US-98 as "zephyr-illis" instead of Zephyrhills. He asked my mother if that was a new venereal disease.
Quote from: frankenroad on March 13, 2023, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 09:58:33 AM
... Not everyone who lives there even pronounces it exactly the same way...
The same is true for Cincinnati (which is often mis-spelled as Cincinatti). Most of us pronounce it sin-si-na-tee, but a not insignificant minority (mostly west siders) pronounce it sin-si-nat-uh.
I've also seen Cincinnatti, which is not as common as the other wrong spelling, but has been written out that way.
Then there's Pittsburgh, which often omits the H at the end, making it Pittsburg (and in fact, several towns use that spelling, as did the city itself until it adopted the current spelling).
And although Cleveland, OH was named in honor of Moses Cleaveland, that surname would've been more awkward, as no other such city or town spells it that way. Good thing they dropped the A to make it Cleveland.
Quote from: Henry on March 16, 2023, 10:29:37 AM
And although Cleveland, OH was named in honor of Moses Cleaveland, that surname would've been more awkward, as no other such city or town spells it that way. Good thing they dropped the A to make it Cleveland.
Moses Cleaveland was my Great*8 Grandfather. I had a great uncle whose first name was Cleaveland; he would get very upset if people spelled it wrong. In fact, he would get upset at a lot of minor things. When my grandmother's obituary was published in our local paper, they mis-spelled Uncle Cleave's name (as Cleveland). My mother did not send him a copy of the obituary (he lived about 2000 miles away) because she knew it would just send him into a tizzy.
Quote from: frankenroad on March 24, 2023, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: Henry on March 16, 2023, 10:29:37 AM
And although Cleveland, OH was named in honor of Moses Cleaveland, that surname would've been more awkward, as no other such city or town spells it that way. Good thing they dropped the A to make it Cleveland.
Moses Cleaveland was my Great*8 Grandfather. I had a great uncle whose first name was Cleaveland; he would get very upset if people spelled it wrong. In fact, he would get upset at a lot of minor things. When my grandmother's obituary was published in our local paper, they mis-spelled Uncle Cleave's name (as Cleveland). My mother did not send him a copy of the obituary (he lived about 2000 miles away) because she knew it would just send him into a tizzy.
I'm also a descendant of Moses Cleveland of Woburn, MA (I'd have to look at my family tree.)
When I was a little kid, I thought Chouteau was pronounced Chat-chew.
Today I learned that the the first T is silent in Connecticut. I didn't know that.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 19, 2023, 03:35:17 PM
Today I learned that the the first T is silent in Connecticut. I didn't know that.
It isn't true.
Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2023, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 19, 2023, 03:35:17 PM
Today I learned that the the first T is silent in Connecticut. I didn't know that.
It isn't true.
Oops, it was the second C.
Today I learned that Souky rhymes with 'lucky'. I didn't know that.
Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2023, 03:57:53 PM
Today I learned that Souky rhymes with 'lucky'. I didn't know that.
I want to say that the reason I leaned hard into that Full Metal Jacket reference earlier in this thread.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2023, 08:19:20 AM
This thread reminds me of the joke about the kid who goes to California for the summer to visit his relatives. On the flight home, he starts talking to the old lady sitting next to him about what a good time he had in (what he pronounces as) San Joe's. She looks at him and says, "Young man, in California, the 'J' is pronounced like an 'H.' How long were you in San Ho-zay?" He thinks about it and responds, "For Hune and Huly."
I prefer the one about the Southern woman and the Northern woman sitting next to each other on an airplane. The Southern woman asks the Northern woman "where y'all from?" and the Northern woman responds "from a place where we don't end sentences with prepositions." So the Southern woman thinks about it for a moment and says "where y'all from, bitch?"
"Des Plaines" seems to throw non-locals (they even pronounced it wrong on an old episode of a police procedural, I think). It's pronounced "duh-SPLAINES"
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 19, 2023, 05:18:34 PM
"Des Plaines" seems to throw non-locals (they even pronounced it wrong on an old episode of a police procedural, I think). It's pronounced "duh-SPLAINES"
An ex-friend was from there and I learned it as "Dess Plains". Yours makes more sense though.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2023, 08:19:20 AM
This thread reminds me of the joke about the kid who goes to California for the summer to visit his relatives. On the flight home, he starts talking to the old lady sitting next to him about what a good time he had in (what he pronounces as) San Joe's. She looks at him and says, "Young man, in California, the 'J' is pronounced like an 'H.' How long were you in San Ho-zay?" He thinks about it and responds, "For Hune and Huly."
Still a slapper of a joke.
Spokane I'm sure is pronounced Spo Cane like it's spelled unlike it's true pronunciation that is Spo Can.
They should have left out the e on the end. :bigass:
However one could argue Houston, surnames of two different people who have a city and a city street named after each. However one pronounces the first o different from the other.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 19, 2023, 05:18:34 PM
the Northern woman responds "from a place where we don't end sentences with prepositions."
This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
When I was catching up with Polish expressway construction a few months ago, I struggled to find placenames I didn't get wrong. Polish orthography requires a major shift of mental gears for English spelling pronouncers.
A few examples:
Ełk--Pronounced more like "ewk" (nothing like elk in English) because the ł is pronounced more like w in English (though this is fraught with class distinctions because the w pronunciation is itself a lower-class usage that became standard Polish a few decades ago). It's Lyck in German, but there is a whole train's worth of baggage with German pronunciations now.
Rzeszów--Key city on the S19 expressway, home to a GDDKiA branch, and in the news a few months ago when an Ukrainian missile inadvertently crossed the border and killed several residents of a small Polish village. Per Wikipedia, it's pronounced "ZHESH-oof" (where did the R go)?
Przemyśl--I still haven't made it past the consonant pileup in front. It's Premissel in German, but the Polish name is used throughout the exhibit on the 1915 siege at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2023, 10:11:14 AM
Rzeszów--Key city on the S19 expressway, home to a GDDKiA branch, and in the news a few months ago when an Ukrainian missile inadvertently crossed the border and killed several residents of a small Polish village. Per Wikipedia, it's pronounced "ZHESH-oof" (where did the R go)?
The "rz" is pronounced like "ZH". Exactly like
Ż.[/font]
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2023, 10:11:14 AM
Polish
I befriended a Polish exchange student in high school, and my family later traveled to Poland on vacation. As such, I'm fairly comfortable with pronouncing the Polish language.
Here are the basics to keep in mind:
Ł – kind of like English W, close enough to be understood
Ć, Ś, Ź – like English CH, SH, ZH (think of the diacritic as adding an H in English)
Ż – similar to Ź, with some added fricative force to get you closer
Ń – like Spanish Ã'
RZ – like Ż
Ą, Ę – nasal, kind of like French AN, EN
Ã" – kind of like English OO as in BOOK
As a rule, stress falls on the penultimate syllable.
So Przemyśl is just
P-ZHE-MISH-LL
My friend from high school was Maciej Przerwa:
MA-CHEY
P-ZHER-VAH
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 10:36:15 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2023, 10:11:14 AM
Polish
I befriended a Polish exchange student in high school, and my family later traveled to Poland on vacation. As such, I'm fairly comfortable with pronouncing the Polish language.
Here are the basics to keep in mind:
Ł – kind of like English W, close enough to be understood
Ć, Ś, Ź – like English CH, SH, ZH (think of the diacritic as adding an H in English)
Ż – similar to Ź, with some added fricative force to get you closer
Ń – like Spanish Ã'
RZ – like Ż
Ą, Ę – nasal, kind of like French AN, EN
Ã" – kind of like English OO as in BOOK
As a rule, stress falls on the penultimate syllable.
So Przemyśl is just P-ZHE-MISH-LL
My friend from high school was Maciej Przerwa: MA-CHEY P-ZHER-VAH
I don't like approximating the Polish Ã" sound as "OO". I would approximate it as "U". And there are also digraphs CZ, DZ, D
Ź, DŻ and SZ. CZ has "ch" sound, DZ is like in "beds", [size=78%] [/size]
DŹ is like J, DŻ is also like J, and SZ is like "sh".
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 20, 2023, 10:41:04 AM
[size=78%] [/size]
So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?
Quote from: 1 on June 20, 2023, 10:42:26 AM
So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?
I copied the two Z's from kphoger's post because I don't have ability to type them in my keyboard. But they appeared in smaller size and I changed them to normal size.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 20, 2023, 10:41:04 AM
I don't like approximating the Polish Ã" sound as "OO". I would approximate it as "U".
I'm good with that too.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 20, 2023, 10:41:04 AM
And there are also digraphs CZ, DZ, DŹ, DŻ and SZ.
CZ has "ch" sound, DZ is like in "beds", DŹ is like J, DŻ is also like J, and SZ is like "sh".
CZ is similar to other eastern European languages, with which I assumed Jonathan was already comfortable, and likewise SZ (Hungarian is the outlier). The other three are easily arrived at by not even thinking of them as digraphs at all. Just think of them as individual letters, and you'll be fine.
Besides, this wasn't intended to be an exhaustive pronunciation guide. Just a short list to make the trickier things easier.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on June 20, 2023, 10:44:06 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 20, 2023, 10:42:26 AM
So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?
I copied the two Z's from kphoger's post because I don't have ability to type them in my keyboard. But they appeared in smaller size and I changed them to normal size.
Yeah, your size tags are annoying. I do my best to remove them when quoting you now.
Since street names have come up in this thread, I'll mention one I've probably mentioned somewhere before. When I was a little kid, the next neighborhood over from ours had two streets named Broken Arrow Court and Broken Knife Court (https://goo.gl/maps/pXCwmtXMoDwFAJR58). One of my brother's classmates lived on Broken Knife Court. My mother misread the street name and was baffled as to why anyone would want to live on a street with such a horrible name–she thought the sign said "Broken Knee Court." :-o
Speaking of my mom, she and my wife and I were in New York earlier this month for a family event and I made a reference to the Kosciuszko Bridge on I-278, but I pronounced it correctly as it would be pronounced in Polish. My mom immediately said that was "wrong" because she said it should be like "Kahs-KEE-ahs-ko." Certainly a lot of people in New York say it that way, of course, but that's doesn't make it "right" (sort of like if you were to sound out "Krzyzewski").
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2023, 12:49:08 PM
Speaking of my mom, she and my wife and I were in New York earlier this month for a family event and I made a reference to the Kosciuszko Bridge on I-278, but I pronounced it correctly as it would be pronounced in Polish. My mom immediately said that was "wrong" because she said it should be like "Kahs-KEE-ahs-ko." Certainly a lot of people in New York say it that way, of course, but that's doesn't make it "right" (sort of like if you were to sound out "Krzyzewski").
Reminds me of a story my mom told. She was working at a clinic here in Wichita, and a lady came whose name was Eloise. My mom pronounced it as "
ELL-oh-eeze", but the lady sternly corrected her: "That's
uh-LOY-see, honey."
I can't help but laugh at how many network sports guys and gals get Green Bay, WI wrong. It is 'green bay' (equal soft emphasis on both words), NOT 'GREEN bay'.
Mike
I'm not a Wisconsinite, but I've always heard the correct stress to be on "Bay".
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
Ill-uh-noise would like to have a word with you.
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce
milk as
melk, or
pillow as
pellow.
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk, or pillow as pellow.
I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.
You betcha.
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
More like Wesgonsin.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 20, 2023, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.
The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk, or pillow as pellow.
I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.
You betcha.
I hang a fleg every morning...
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 03:00:27 PMThe same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk
I've heard this from people from Michigan as well, and I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that the Dutch word for milk is, in fact, melk.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 20, 2023, 03:03:18 PM
I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.
You betcha.
Would you like that to be vanella flavor?
(Are you lactose intolerant, and would prefer Selk brand? :biggrin: )
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 09:54:05 AM
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
Personally, I normally use periods.
For the longest time, I read Tumwater, WA as Turnwater.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 20, 2023, 06:55:34 PM
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 09:54:05 AM
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
Personally, I normally use periods.
Thank you for a useful comeback!
– What do you want me to put that in?
– You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.
– I didn't. I ended it with a question mark.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 04:56:03 AM
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Vur-Sails, CT (Versailles)
Doo Boys, PA and Doo Boys, WY (DuBois)
However, Wyoming pronounces Gros Ventre ("grow vahnt") about right IMO
Sioux Falls and Sioux City have a silent "x" which is a good start
Des Moines - halfway there?
Quote from: kurumi on June 21, 2023, 11:38:39 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 04:56:03 AM
Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.
Vur-Sails, CT (Versailles)
Doo Boys, PA and Doo Boys, WY (DuBois)
However, Wyoming pronounces Gros Ventre ("grow vahnt") about right IMO
Sioux Falls and Sioux City have a silent "x" which is a good start
Des Moines - halfway there?
I think Marquette and Rochelle do pretty well with their names.
My parents lived in Bourbonnais at a time when the mayor was making a big push to get people to stop pronouncing it "boor-ban-us"
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 09:54:05 AM
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
With what are you supposed to end it?**
The restructuring of prepositional phrases to "[object] [preposition] which/whom [subject] [verb]" helps a lot.
"Thing I'm proud of" becomes "thing of which I'm proud"
"Person I was golfing with" becomes "person with whom I was golfing"
"Place he came from" becomes "place from which he came"
That's the secret to avoiding the ending of a sentence with a preposition!
Back on track, when I was a small child I used to think Montana had an extra syllable so it sounded like "Panama". I called it "Montanana."
I refuse to put emphasis on the second syllable of "Charlotte," Michigan.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
That's the secret to avoiding the ending of a sentence with a preposition!
But why would a person avoid ending a sentence with a preposition in the first place?
The supposed rule has been erroneous since its first popularization centuries ago. The assumption by most grammarians is that those who thought the practice erroneous all those years ago were trying to harmonize English sentence structure with that of Latin–and, because Latin sentences would make no syntactical sense with a terminal preposition (
veritas vino in), they insisted that English sentences shouldn't have terminal prepositions either.
Forcing English to abide by the rules of Latin is ridiculous on the face of it, and it is the type of arrant pedantry up with which one ought not put.
Quote from: kphoger on June 21, 2023, 12:16:41 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
That's the secret to avoiding the ending of a sentence with a preposition!
But why would a person avoid ending a sentence with a preposition in the first place?
The supposed rule has been erroneous since its first popularization centuries ago. The assumption by most grammarians is that those who thought the practice erroneous all those years ago were trying to harmonize English sentence structure with that of Latin–and, because Latin sentences would make no syntactical sense with a terminal preposition (veritas vino in), they insisted that English sentences shouldn't have terminal prepositions either.
Forcing English to abide by the rules of Latin is ridiculous on the face of it, and it is the type of arrant pedantry up with which one ought not put.
Just out of idle curiosity, how does it work in Spanish? French doesn't allow separating prepositions from their objects any more than Latin did and makes use of an equivalent to the "with which," "for which," "among which," structure, except for "of which" which has its own specific word.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
I refuse to put emphasis on the second syllable of "Charlotte," Michigan.
Elizabethton TN puts its stress on the BETH.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 21, 2023, 12:25:44 PM
Just out of idle curiosity, how does it work in Spanish? French doesn't allow separating prepositions from their objects any more than Latin did and makes use of an equivalent to the "with which," "for which," "among which," structure, except for "of which" which has its own specific word.
I don't speak French, but my impression is that many grammatical rules are similar. Just as a terminal preposition would make no sense in Latin, it would make no sense in Spanish either.
Which store are you going
to?
¿
A qué tienda vas?
Who was he
with?
¿
Con quién estaba?
She isn't the one I was speaking
with.
Ella no es
con quien estaba platicando.
Who should I toss it
to?
¿
A quién debo tirarla?
I don't know what country it's
in.
No sé
en qué paÃs está.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 21, 2023, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
I refuse to put emphasis on the second syllable of "Charlotte," Michigan.
Elizabethton TN puts its stress on the BETH.
Keeping with the topic of "Place names you got wrong", a lot of people not familiar with the town over the phone will ask me "is that ElizabethTOWN?" or "did you mean ElizabethTOWN?" when I say where I live. That or they just go ahead and assume I meant "Elizabethtown" and will fill out forms as such, which I always end up having to correct later on. Nope. There is no Elizabethtown in Tennessee. Only an ElizaBETHton.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 09:54:05 AM
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
With what are you supposed to end it?**
The restructuring of prepositional phrases to "[object] [preposition] which/whom [subject] [verb]" helps a lot.
"Thing I'm proud of" becomes "thing of which I'm proud"
"Person I was golfing with" becomes "person with whom I was golfing"
"Place he came from" becomes "place from which he came"
That's the secret to avoiding the ending of a sentence with a preposition!
If I inadvertently wrote a sentence like one of these examples, I would probably choose to revise it, because the examples come off as clunkily-worded. Most of these add extra words like "which" that don't impart any actual meaning, they only serve a mechanical purpose.
Additionally, in a lot of these examples, the preposition itself doesn't really impart a whole lot of meaning and is there just to make the sentence logically complete: you could probably understand the intended meaning of "Joe is the person I was golfing", it's just that the verb
golf doesn't normally take a sentient entity as its object (i.e. you can't actually
do golf upon a person), so you have to stick a preposition in there as a dummy word to fill in the slot to make it logically complete. As a result there are a whole lot of prepositions you can stick in that slot and make the sentence convey the same meaning, with the choice only mattering as to what aspect of the event you want emphasize (Joe is the person I was golfing [against, with, beside, alongside, near, by ...]).
Given that it is not really all that critical to the meaning of the sentence, it makes sense to put the meat of the sentence's meaning up front and then the preposition at the end, where the brain already has the context parsed and then this is an added bit of detail. Putting the preposition in the middle of the sentence, before the meaning of the sentence is fully parsed, makes it harder to follow, because you don't have the context for what the preposition is modifying, and the brain is saying "get to the point, already!"
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 21, 2023, 06:32:23 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 21, 2023, 11:52:58 AM
Quote from: Big John on June 20, 2023, 09:54:05 AM
If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?
With what are you supposed to end it?**
The restructuring of prepositional phrases to "[object] [preposition] which/whom [subject] [verb]" helps a lot.
"Thing I'm proud of" becomes "thing of which I'm proud"
"Person I was golfing with" becomes "person with whom I was golfing"
"Place he came from" becomes "place from which he came"
That's the secret to avoiding the ending of a sentence with a preposition!
If I inadvertently wrote a sentence like one of these examples, I would probably choose to revise it, because the examples come off as clunkily-worded. Most of these add extra words like "which" that don't impart any actual meaning, they only serve a mechanical purpose.
Additionally, in a lot of these examples, the preposition itself doesn't really impart a whole lot of meaning and is there just to make the sentence logically complete: you could probably understand the intended meaning of "Joe is the person I was golfing", it's just that the verb golf doesn't normally take a sentient entity as its object (i.e. you can't actually do golf upon a person), so you have to stick a preposition in there as a dummy word to fill in the slot to make it logically complete. As a result there are a whole lot of prepositions you can stick in that slot and make the sentence convey the same meaning, with the choice only mattering as to what aspect of the event you want emphasize (Joe is the person I was golfing [against, with, beside, alongside, near, by ...]).
Given that it is not really all that critical to the meaning of the sentence, it makes sense to put the meat of the sentence's meaning up front and then the preposition at the end, where the brain already has the context parsed and then this is an added bit of detail. Putting the preposition in the middle of the sentence, before the meaning of the sentence is fully parsed, makes it harder to follow, because you don't have the context for what the preposition is modifying, and the brain is saying "get to the point, already!"
Not ending a sentence with a preposition was something drilled into my head as a youngster by my mom...which I largely have ignored. I'll try to rephrase a sentence sometimes to avoid it because in the written sense it does look a little off, but speaking-wise, it often just rolls off the tongue better using the prep at the end.
Speaking about the rule prohibiting the ending of sentences with prepositions, Winston Churchill reportedly said "That is a rule up with which I will not put."
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 21, 2023, 06:32:23 PM
Additionally, in a lot of these examples, the preposition itself doesn't really impart a whole lot of meaning and is there just to make the sentence logically complete: you could probably understand the intended meaning of "Joe is the person I was golfing", it's just that the verb golf doesn't normally take a sentient entity as its object (i.e. you can't actually do golf upon a person), so you have to stick a preposition in there as a dummy word to fill in the slot to make it logically complete. As a result there are a whole lot of prepositions you can stick in that slot and make the sentence convey the same meaning, with the choice only mattering as to what aspect of the event you want emphasize (Joe is the person I was golfing [against, with, beside, alongside, near, by ...]).
Joe is the person I was golfing at. :evilgrin:
Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.
Quote from: kphoger on June 21, 2023, 12:16:41 PM
Forcing English to abide by the rules of Latin is ridiculous on the face of it, and it is the type of arrant pedantry up with which one ought not put.
Quote from: mhh on June 21, 2023, 06:49:05 PM
Speaking about the rule prohibiting the ending of sentences with prepositions, Winston Churchill reportedly said "That is a rule up with which I will not put."
you don't say
Tucson. I didn't know that the C was not pronounced.
Is the K not pronounced in Knoxville? I have expected that it is not. The Wikipedia article does not mention pronunciation.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 09, 2023, 11:39:58 AM
Is the K not pronounced in Knoxville? I have expected that it is not. The Wikipedia article does not mention pronunciation.
The K is silent in Knoxville yes as it is in Knox County where it's located.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on September 09, 2023, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 09, 2023, 11:39:58 AM
Is the K not pronounced in Knoxville? I have expected that it is not. The Wikipedia article does not mention pronunciation.
The K is silent in Knoxville yes as it is in Knox County where it's located.
In American English, the "k" is almost always silent when followed by "n", if the pair are the first two letters of a word.
When it comes to place names, all bets are off on pronunciation (though /nox-vil/ is correct).
Quote from: formulanone on September 09, 2023, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on September 09, 2023, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 09, 2023, 11:39:58 AM
Is the K not pronounced in Knoxville? I have expected that it is not. The Wikipedia article does not mention pronunciation.
The K is silent in Knoxville yes as it is in Knox County where it's located.
In American English, the "k" is almost always silent when followed by "n", if the pair are the first two letters of a word.
When it comes to place names, all bets are off on pronunciation (though /nox-vil/ is correct).
Knoebels!
Knute Rockne pronounced the :K".
and most proper names, stop interrupting the class
And Louisville is pronounced /lu@v@l/ (the @ sign stands for schwa, like sound "a" in "about"). This means that "s" is silent.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 10, 2023, 01:43:02 PM
And Louisville is pronounced /lu@v@l/ (the @ sign stands for schwa, like sound "a" in "about"). This means that "s" is silent.
The actual way to grunt the name is debated. Still, never "Looey-ville."
Quote from: Rothman on September 10, 2023, 01:50:21 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 10, 2023, 01:43:02 PM
And Louisville is pronounced /lu@v@l/ (the @ sign stands for schwa, like sound "a" in "about"). This means that "s" is silent.
The actual way to grunt the name is debated. Still, never "Looey-ville."
Or "Looeys-ville".
The one I've always found a little odd is Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, which is pronounced as "Lewisburg." I assume that comes from the Anglophone population having a negative reaction to French names after the Seven Years' War.
^ It comes from the general British (which carried over to Canadian but not American) pronunciations of French words.
When you get a piece of fish, it's a "fil-lit" not a "fil-lay".
Of course the US has it's own bastardizations of French name and word pronunciations - and French isn't the only language we butcher, just look at names that came from Native people's languages.
I just found out that Clermont-Ferrand, a major city in southern France, isn't Clermont-Ferrard.
I found out that S is pronounced in Saint Louis (city), unlike in Louisville.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 15, 2023, 07:30:10 AM
I found out that S is pronounced in Saint Louis (city), unlike in Louisville.
Or ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville,_Illinois
I had always thought that the country of Seychelles was Sechyelles.