Hawk Ped Xing Signals on old RR Cantilevers in Tampa, Fl

[Brian556]

This is interesting. I've always disliked HAWK signals for the reason that they too closely resemble railroad crossing lights. This could confuse motorists in two ways. 1. Stopping at a Hawk at night and expecting at train. 2. Worse. Getting used to HAWKs, and accidentally proceeding after stopping at an actual railroad crossing that is activated at night because it so closely resembles a HAWK.

These light setups look like the railroad crossing lights in England, with the yellow light.

The crossing in Tampa:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.762889,-82.671152&spn=0.000003,0.001566&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=27.763028,-82.671152&panoid=0_u0XYrGRqeLYbsmKhBhyA&cbp=12,201.6,,0,0

England crossing:
http://www.rxrsignals.net/UK/South_Wales/Older/1.JPG

[NE2]

St. Pete, bro.

[JREwing78]

I never got that myself. Why wouldn't a typical stoplight sequence suffice?

[NE2]

I never got that myself. Why wouldn't a typical stoplight sequence suffice?

The benefit over a normal traffic light is that you don't have to wait the full length that it takes for a wheelchair to cross if a bike is crossing.

This is of course only necessary because dicks won't stop at unsignaled crosswalks.

[Alps]

I never got that myself. Why wouldn't a typical stoplight sequence suffice?

No green light, for one thing. I wrote in during the MUTCD comment period that the HAWKs resembled RRX lights from afar and this could be dangerous, but they said they're smaller and closer together and higher up, so no one would confuse them. Well, I confuse them. There's a turn from US 46 west that bears right and comes to a blinking red light at an intersection half a mile down. Even during the day, you can see the blinking lights alternating and it looks exactly like a railroad crossing. That could cause people to change their mind on routes - possibly suddenly with a bad maneuver. HAWKs are hopefully one lawsuit away from serious modification.

[sp_redelectric]

Is that pedestrian path an old, abandoned railroad crossing, where the use of the old railroad signal assembly was reused for the pedestrian signal?

Sounds like good re-use to me.  What I dislike (in Oregon) is the inconsistency of pedestrian crossing signals, anything from "hawks" to flashing yellows, to fast-flashing LED lights, to full-on red-yellow-green traffic signals, to nothing besides signs, to nothing at all.

[DaBigE]

Trying to be somewhat objective here...
On the plus side, the RxR xing-like component of the HAWK sequence does not last the entire length of the activation, only during the clearance phase (see below). So the confusion should be minimal. OTOH, is it that bad that they could be confused for an active RxR signal? Regardless of what is crossing, you are required to stop.

On the negative side, there is talk of these being required at all roundabouts with pedestrian crossings.

[route56]

You want confusing, I think I can 1-up you...


39355 by Richie Kennedy, on Flickr

Of course, the prevailing traffic crossing here is pedestrian. The railroad track dead-ends about a block to the south, the remainder re-used as a pedestrian trail.

EDIT! 1/7/17 to correct dead link. Also, since this photo was taken, the railroad crossing was taken out, leaving this HAWK signal exclusively as a pedestrian signal.

[DaBigE]

Given that the FY doesn't change position from the SY, why does the HAWK have to be three lights? Why not just have a stacked two-light signal? Keep the same phases, just simplify the configuration. No confusion to a RxR signal.

Or, since FY signals are permissible at Ped Xings, what about a two-signal phasing: FY > SY > SR (Walk Interval) > FY (Ped Clearance--same as a yellow beacon at other Ped Xings) > Off

[Alps]

FWIW, a lot of people at the FHWA hate the HAWK signals. Sometimes what makes it into the MUTCD or not is a matter of politics or "who's on top" at that moment.

[Brian556]

It does look cool that hey re-used the old cantilevers.

On another note;

In this picture,
There is also the issue or the double arrow being used at a T-intersection where the primary road turns. This was covered in another topic.

[Zmapper]

Fort Collins declined to use HAWK signals in favor of regular traffic lights where the Power Trail and the UPRR tracks cross Horsetooth and Drake roads, presumably to prevent drivers from confusing what the intended meaning of the signal.

[sp_redelectric]

You want confusing, I think I can 1-up you...Of course, the prevailing traffic crossing here is pedestrian. The railroad track dead-ends about a block to the south, the remainder re-used as a pedestrian trail.

Do trains activate the signal?  I can see that being a problem for folks unfamiliar with the area.  Much like where there are "rails with trails". In those situations I think an ordinary RYG signal might be better.

[US81]

Given that the FY doesn't change position from the SY, why does the HAWK have to be three lights? Why not just have a stacked two-light signal? Keep the same phases, just simplify the configuration. No confusion to a RxR signal.

Or, since FY signals are permissible at Ped Xings, what about a two-signal phasing: FY > SY > SR (Walk Interval) > FY (Ped Clearance--same as a yellow beacon at other Ped Xings) > Off

Seconded!!

[route56]

Do trains activate the signal?  I can see that being a problem for folks unfamiliar with the area.  Much like where there are "rails with trails". In those situations I think an ordinary RYG signal might be better.

No, although the engine could conceivably stop short of the crossing and the conductor or brakeman could get off and manually activate the ped signal. The track ends ~ 500-600 feet south of this crossing.

This crossing did have a train activated signal at one time:

6828 by Richie Kennedy, on Flickr

EDIT! 1/7/17 to correct link rot. As also noted in the edit above, the rails have since been removed. AFAIK, no locomotive ever used this crossing after the HAWK signal was put in.

[agentsteel53]

my main complaint with the Hawk is that sometimes the signal is off, which is completely contradictory to established traffic signal protocols.

an off signal is to be treated as an all-way stop, except for when it is part of an undeveloped intersection, which one is supposed to recognize by the black tape over the black signal heads, at high speed... or sometimes people just treat an off signal as complete chaos because, hey, order sucks.

in short, off signals are just a bad, bad idea.

[roadfro]

my main complaint with the Hawk is that sometimes the signal is off, which is completely contradictory to established traffic signal protocols.

an off signal is to be treated as an all-way stop, except for when it is part of an undeveloped intersection, which one is supposed to recognize by the black tape over the black signal heads, at high speed... or sometimes people just treat an off signal as complete chaos because, hey, order sucks.

in short, off signals are just a bad, bad idea.

How would you compare an "off" HAWK signal to an "off" ramp meter?

Just asking the question. I'm not a fan of the HAWK operation either, and would prefer something that didn't look like a railroad crossing.

[NE2]

How would you compare an "off" HAWK signal to an "off" ramp meter?

A ramp meter is in a very specific place, far from any intersection.

[Alps]

First of all, WIGWAG YES:

Second of all, the "signal off" rule always bothered me, because you can't actually see an off signal at night unless it's lit. If there's a power outage, there's no way to know you're approaching an intersection. Then again, there's no really good way to deal with that situation. However, the de facto rule I've observed is "if you're local, you know which one is the main road."

[sp_redelectric]

This crossing did have a train activated signal at one time:

http://www.route56.com/gallery/1999/jan99/010699/6828.jpg.php

MUCH BETTER!!!  (Although my personal experience with wig-wag signals were in a town with four of them, and the railroad liked to park their locomotives on the mainline causing the signals to activate quite frequently, so the signals were frequently disregarded.  A lot of close calls and skid marks when "holy S*$(, that train is MOVING!"  Today they've all been replaced with modern flashers/gates with island circuits to prevent the signals from continuously activating.)