AARoads Forum

This Dilbert (https://markholtz.info/dilbert2021-05-08) got me thinking.... for those of us who transitioned from working in a office to working from home, how many of you are looking forward to going back to the office?

For me.... PLEASE! When I was job relocated to Texas, I paid a price premium to have a home within walking distance from my workplace with the bonus being that I'm a five minute drive from a Dart light rail station which can take me downtown. There are additional financial benefits including lower cost of operating my car and low car insurance premiums.

That's what bothers me about this whole Covid work-from-home. From February, 2019 to mid-March, 2020 (13½ months), I enjoyed my short commute including listening to an audiobook on my walk. The earliest we can go back to the office is the end-of-June, although realistically, we're not expecting to be back in the office until early September. That's at least 17½ months. I have a dedicated bedroom which I converted over to a home office for occasional work from it. For the past year, the only difference between work and home mode was switching my display from HDMI to DisplayPort mode and plugging my keyboard and mouse from my home computer to my office laptop.

Of course, the flip side is that this Covid thing provided me with some career-enhancing opportunities (along with some long hours) that will be very unique on my team's resume.

My wife is looking forward to it, her office had her at home most of COVID.  She actually liked being at work and interacting with her co-workers, being at home has been grindingly boring I'm to understand.

To that end something I will like about her going to work is being able to take naps when I'm off or write with total silence.  The flip side is she will probably be more comfortable inviting family to stay over which will be just as great of a distraction.

Not looking forward to it in general.  This was the time for us introverts to shine and now the extroverts are salivating at subjecting us to their incessant blabber out of a need to feel important once again.  We must stop their coup in its tracks.

I kept home and office separate psychologically by actually getting dressed for the day and keeping in mind when I logged in and out of my VPN into my office computer.  If keeping home and office separate was an issue for others, that seems to be more on them being able not to take measures to separate the environments in their heads than the simple need to work remotely.

I do have to say that I have a couple of staffers that are more productive in the office and are therefore ruining this respite from the office for the rest of us.  If they were like my other six staffers, I wouldn't feel the pull to go back into the office at all.

Going back to sitting in an office where work there are always some minutes of downtime where I'm sitting and waiting for others or for the next meeting just sounds awful, especially since those times allowed me to get things done around my home.  Going back to having to scrunch some home duties back into pre and post office hours just sounds miserable.

I also set up my home so I could quickly walk to the office.  I don't believe working from home tears me from that benefit.

Ideally, I'd prefer a workplace where I was in the office when I needed to be and free to work remotely when I didn't.

I don't work, but it was extremely special when I got to return back to school every other week. There were so many little things that I didn't know that I missed. I still like my remote weeks though as I get more sleep.

While work from home does have some nice advantages, I'm looking forward to going back to the office overall.  At work, I have a dual monitor system, which makes life a lot easier; at home, I'm remoting in from a laptop (chained through a VDI, as the Pulse system for remoting in directly doesn't work on any of my home computers, and the VDI tends to lag and is glitchy - for example, if I need to type something in all caps, I need to hit shift separately for each letter as if I were typing on a phone, as simply holding it down or using caps lock is not recognized).  And I could use my desk phone instead of my cell phone for WebEx/Zoom meetings and calling people again.  And scheduling time for field work/meetings is a PITA when working around telecommuting.  Plus it's nice to be able to talk to my coworkers and actually see human beings.  There was a while where my apartment felt like it had turned into solitary confinement with a cell phone and internet connection.  And grocery shopping is MUCH more convenient to do on the way home from work rather than as a separate trip in the evening.

As such, while I'm currently in one day a week in the office, I plan to increase that to three days a week once I'm fully vaccinated, and from there evaluate if/when to go back to a full five days per week (I've been taking advantage of staying at home and not needing to be presentable to dramatically shorten my morning routine and allow myself to sleep in another hour two days a week, so three days to five is a much bigger hump than one to three).

Quote from: Rothman on May 08, 2021, 09:51:36 PM
Going back to sitting in an office where work there are always some minutes of downtime where I'm sitting and waiting for others or for the next meeting just sounds awful, especially since those times allowed me to get things done around my home.  Going back to having to scrunch some home duties back into pre and post office hours just sounds miserable.

That would be the downside.  Days where there's not as much to do and nobody's around the office can certainly be quite boring, which isn't an issue with work from home.  And not being used to compressing everything as much as I needed to when I had a daily commute is one of the reason why I'm tying to take the transition slow.

From the possible arrangements I've heard, I'm not enthused about returning to the office.  The thing I hear most about is "hybrid", where you work from home some days and go in on others.  You wouldn't have an assigned space in the office, but would reserve a "hotel" desk.  No thank you.  I don't want to haul my stuff to and from work on the days I'm working there.  I want a space where I can keep things - simple stuff like pens and paper, reference materials, coffee cup, a fleece for those days that it's cold, etc.

I was already working from home before the pandemic and will continue to do so after things reopen. I live in Virginia and my office is in New York City.

Regarding vdeane's comment about dual monitors, I upgraded my work rig at home at my own expense when there was a combination of a Dell sale combined with an American Express promo that allowed me to get a great deal on dual monitors that attached to a single stand. Of course I understand why some people either cannot, or do not want to, spend their own money on that sort of thing, but I can keep those monitors if I ever change jobs and use them for one of our home PCs. Big thing for me is that, as vdeane says, dual monitors make life a lot easier. The laptop screen is far too small except for use in a pinch (e.g., of course I use it if I'm on Amtrak going to or from New York), and even a single monitor is not enough space for the way I work because I regularly have three or four Word documents, seven or more .PDFs, several browser tabs, e-mail, MS Teams, the Windows file manager, and one or two other things open all at the same time, so Alt-Tab is not an ideal way to cycle between things.

We have an IP phone thing that duplicates the desk phone at the office with an on-screen phone that uses either the PC speaker and microphone or a headset. Only thing is, it's a nuisance for voicemail because you have to use your mouse to click the buttons. We've started calling each other via MS Teams (usually voice-only, but occasionally video) because it's more convenient to make an internal call that way. Have to use the "softphone" to make external calls, though.

Being able to sleep later in the morning because I don't have to commute is certainly nice as well. I used to get up at 6:15 to be in downtown DC by 8:00, and that was without eating breakfast or drinking coffee before leaving. Now I get up at 7:00, shave and shower, eat breakfast and have my coffee, and then start work at 8:00.

I suppose for me the biggest downside of working at home is a smaller space. My home office is the smallest room in the house (other than bathrooms, of course). That also means because the monitors throw off a fair amount of heat (I have four monitors in there–the two I mentioned for work, plus two attached to my home PC) it can get rather warm in the afternoons. We replaced all our windows last year and the new ones are a huge improvement, so it'll be interesting to see how much of a difference that makes this summer.

I'm not looking forward to it.

I don't look forward to getting up earlier in the morning to get showered, get dressed, and embarking on a 45-minute commute. Getting up at 7:45 to start the work day at 8 a.m. has its advantages.

With the price of gas going up, and me now having to drive an old truck now that gets less than 20 mpg, gas is an added expense that I won't enjoy paying.

I have been working from home where there is no payroll (occupational tax). The town where my office is located levies a 2% tax. So in the 14-and-counting months since I've been working from home, I've had a de facto 2 percent raise, which is more of a raise than I have had since 2007. I won't enjoy having less take-home pay when I have to start paying the payroll tax.

And there's the bonus of not having to deal with people, having to make idle chit-chat, and all those other things.

We've been given no indication when or if we'll go back to some semblance of a normal schedule. I have been going to the office every couple of weeks to get mail, sign timesheets, etc.

I was working from home before the pandemic, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  I live outside Hartford CT (and will soon resume shuttling between CT and Memphis TN), and work in Montréal QC.

I actually miss going to an office.  While there are advantages to working from home and am a definite introvert, there is certain information that I picked up just by being around folks in the office.  Two offices ago, I had a 20-30 minute commute on back roads northwest of Hartford, and that helped create some mental separation between "home" and "work" that was nice.

However, when that office moved, and my commute went to 90+ minutes a day and I wasn't actually working with anyone in that building (I supported underwriters around the US...but not locally)...that's when the cost-benefit of going into the office made a compelling argument to working from home.

Before the pandemic, my company was toying around with letting most employees opt in to working 50% from home, probably on a "3 days office, 2  days home // 2 days office, 3 days home" schedule, as real estate reality in the Canadian cities where we have major offices was making it difficult to find space for the growing employee population.  While there hasn't yet been an announcement (aside from our offices being closed through at least Labour Day), most of us think that plan will be adopted.

Most of the folks in my department seem to be on the same page -- finding some advantages of working from home, but missing some of the impromptu discussions you can have in the office (and the social interactions, as most of my department is extroverted).

I couldn't wait to get back into the office.  When the company started bringing people back in (like a year ago now?), they offered me the choice to continue working from home, and I said No way!

Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

This depends on the context, but it's definitely also a generational thing. Sometimes I'll use email even when I could just walk down and ask, especially if it's something that person is going to have to look up.

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
I couldn't wait to get back into the office.  When the company started bringing people back in (like a year ago now?), they offered me the choice to continue working from home, and I said No way!

Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

I think that I would have begun to gone stir crazy at home myself.  It's way easier to do my job in person than over a computer or phone.  To that end I guess I feel fortunate that I never had to do remote work.  Besides I don't want the barrier between work and home life to get blurred any more than it has. 

When I go back to the office, I'll need to take a cat back with me, as I've grown accustomed to having supurrvision this past year-plus.

I've been working from home for over a year and I can't imagine going back to the office. I did get an email saying I'll be working from home for the foreseeable future, so I'm happy about that.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 09, 2021, 02:20:09 PM
I have been working from home where there is no payroll (occupational tax). The town where my office is located levies a 2% tax. So in the 14-and-counting months since I've been working from home, I've had a de facto 2 percent raise, which is more of a raise than I have had since 2007. I won't enjoy having less take-home pay when I have to start paying the payroll tax.

I had no idea there were places where cities could charge payroll tax. As far as I know, that's not legal in Oklahoma.

Quote from: webny99 on May 11, 2021, 01:34:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

This depends on the context, but it's definitely also a generational thing. Sometimes I'll use email even when I could just walk down and ask, especially if it's something that person is going to have to look up.

Or something that you want a record of the answer to refer back to when needed.

My job by nature doesn't allow me to work from home, but we had kicked the tires on the the main weekday host doing shows from home if he felt it was becoming too dangerous to come to the station in person. We already had one host who was doing a show from home before the pandemic started, and I wouldn't really want to deal with a second host doing that where you can't easily communicate with them in moment-to-moment situations.

Quote from: GaryV on May 22, 2021, 06:31:41 PM

Quote from: webny99 on May 11, 2021, 01:34:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

This depends on the context, but it's definitely also a generational thing. Sometimes I'll use email even when I could just walk down and ask, especially if it's something that person is going to have to look up.

Or something that you want a record of the answer to refer back to when needed.

Or something you want written record of cause you don't trust the person not to throw you under the bus or to try to wiggle out of a commitment they made.

We "closed" but I work in accounting so have always had to go in once a week.  We recently moved, increasing my drive from 14 to 28 miles, through bad Austin traffic.  Other department are coming back a couple days a week but we're sticking to one day.  Monday I get up at 5:15 and get home at 5.  Rest of the week I get up at 7 and am done at 4....works for me!

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 11:00:46 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 22, 2021, 06:31:41 PM

Quote from: webny99 on May 11, 2021, 01:34:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

This depends on the context, but it's definitely also a generational thing. Sometimes I'll use email even when I could just walk down and ask, especially if it's something that person is going to have to look up.

Or something that you want a record of the answer to refer back to when needed.

Or something you want written record of cause you don't trust the person not to throw you under the bus or to try to wiggle out of a commitment they made.

As I said, "when needed".   :-D

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
I couldn't wait to get back into the office.  When the company started bringing people back in (like a year ago now?), they offered me the choice to continue working from home, and I said No way!

Walking twenty steps down the hall to personally ask a question is so much better than e-mailing someone and hoping they get to their inbox soon.

IT folks had been trying to get a series of instant messaging clients implemented for years.

Then the pandemic happened...and now we've all become well-versed in using Teams.   We can send a quick message, and switch to voice and/or video if needed.

It's not the same as just popping over to someone's cube/office...and Teams is a resource hog...but I'm hoping it sticks after our offices reopen.  It's nice not having to make an international call to get a quick question answered!

Obviously I'm not at the age where I'd have any job that would do this, but I will say that I hope that workplaces don't continue to do this after COVID where you have work-from-home-only job offerings or a mixed schedule in which some days you're regularly expected to work from home.

Based on how I did with remote classes, I cannot focus at home, and if I'm not leaving the house and in some sort of routine, at least during the weekdays, I can't really keep up with myself. I start to slip on hygeine, taking my medications when I should (or, more often than not, forgetting them entirely), getting in the right sleep cycle, etc etc. And I also start to binge eat.

Basically, I become a massive slob that doesn't put any effort into anything. I am an introvert and sometimes getting out there sucks, but just being at home all the time for literally everything is really, really bad for my health and well-being.

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Obviously I'm not at the age where I'd have any job that would do this, but I will say that I hope that workplaces don't continue to do this after COVID where you have work-from-home-only job offerings or a mixed schedule in which some days you're regularly expected to work from home.

Based on how I did with remote classes, I cannot focus at home, and if I'm not leaving the house and in some sort of routine, at least during the weekdays, I can't really keep up with myself. I start to slip on hygeine, taking my medications when I should (or, more often than not, forgetting them entirely), getting in the right sleep cycle, etc etc. And I also start to binge eat.

Basically, I become a massive slob that doesn't put any effort into anything. I am an introvert and sometimes getting out there sucks, but just being at home all the time for literally everything is really, really bad for my health and well-being.

I'm an introvert as well.  What helped me was keeping home and work distinct (e.g., still dress up for work and use when I log into my work computer as a psychological trigger that I am not really at home).  And, of course, having downtime at home is much more enjoyable than having it in the office.

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Obviously I'm not at the age where I'd have any job that would do this, but I will say that I hope that workplaces don't continue to do this after COVID where you have work-from-home-only job offerings or a mixed schedule in which some days you're regularly expected to work from home.

Based on how I did with remote classes, I cannot focus at home, and if I'm not leaving the house and in some sort of routine, at least during the weekdays, I can't really keep up with myself. I start to slip on hygeine, taking my medications when I should (or, more often than not, forgetting them entirely), getting in the right sleep cycle, etc etc. And I also start to binge eat.

Basically, I become a massive slob that doesn't put any effort into anything. I am an introvert and sometimes getting out there sucks, but just being at home all the time for literally everything is really, really bad for my health and well-being.

I've been working from home for over a decade now; I got started because after the local office moved I was spending 90+ minutes commuting each day only to sit in front of a computer and talk to people in other places by phone and email.

The trick to working from home is to be able to have a regular schedule, a dedicated space or "something" where you and others in your environment know that you're "at work".  Some people can do it better than others...and that's OK.

I'm looking forward to being able to go back into my office (now in Montréal).  But I'm hoping that a greater tolerance for WFH, and some of the communication changes that happened because of the pandemic lockdowns last.

Quote from: GaryV on May 09, 2021, 07:16:08 AM
From the possible arrangements I've heard, I'm not enthused about returning to the office.  The thing I hear most about is "hybrid", where you work from home some days and go in on others.  You wouldn't have an assigned space in the office, but would reserve a "hotel" desk.  No thank you.  I don't want to haul my stuff to and from work on the days I'm working there.  I want a space where I can keep things - simple stuff like pens and paper, reference materials, coffee cup, a fleece for those days that it's cold, etc.

Generally though they are so nuts about cleanliness now why would they do that?

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 23, 2021, 09:52:38 AM

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Obviously I'm not at the age where I'd have any job that would do this, but I will say that I hope that workplaces don't continue to do this after COVID where you have work-from-home-only job offerings or a mixed schedule in which some days you're regularly expected to work from home.

Based on how I did with remote classes, I cannot focus at home, and if I'm not leaving the house and in some sort of routine, at least during the weekdays, I can't really keep up with myself. I start to slip on hygeine, taking my medications when I should (or, more often than not, forgetting them entirely), getting in the right sleep cycle, etc etc. And I also start to binge eat.

Basically, I become a massive slob that doesn't put any effort into anything. I am an introvert and sometimes getting out there sucks, but just being at home all the time for literally everything is really, really bad for my health and well-being.

I've been working from home for over a decade now; I got started because after the local office moved I was spending 90+ minutes commuting each day only to sit in front of a computer and talk to people in other places by phone and email.

The trick to working from home is to be able to have a regular schedule, a dedicated space or "something" where you and others in your environment know that you're "at work".  Some people can do it better than others...and that's OK.

I'm looking forward to being able to go back into my office (now in Montréal).  But I'm hoping that a greater tolerance for WFH, and some of the communication changes that happened because of the pandemic lockdowns last.

This was probably the biggest point of failure in terms of focus. The only option I had was my room, and it didn't help that I have a father who, for reasons I don't know, doesn't understand the concept brought about by the pandemic that always at home does not mean always available (despite trying to explain this to him). Constantly knocking on my door, asking me to pour him drinks and bring them to him or do the dishes while I was in class.

That and, when you're around people who don't know how to not make noise, constantly "signing" (code word, yelling) in the halls whenever they're walked down, slamming doors, cabinets, plates, and sneezing as loud as humanly possible. Having to spend over a year around...that...gave me some serious cabin fever and drove me to the point of rage every time I was interrupted. Not a good recipe for focus. I am not sure how well I could form a routine while being constantly at home though. I get complacent fast.

One thing I also forgot to mention is, it also doesn't help that I constantly, and I mean constantly miss video visit appointment dates. I just can't do those. If I'm doing an appointment, it has to be somewhere I physically need to go or I'm just going to forget about it. One of my medications is a controlled substance, I missed an appointment about it, and now I'm going to be out of it for at least two months because the doctor I need to see to keep the flow of it going is constantly booked through. It is out of necessity due to the pandemic, but I seriously hope that stuff isn't here to stay like a lot of people are predicting it will be. The internet just can't replace everything for some people. If people want options, give them options but I really need to be doing things the old way.

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Constantly knocking on my door, asking me to pour him drinks and bring them to him or do the dishes while I was in class.

This doesn't sound good.  I don't drink, but I never asked my kids to pour me anything, let alone constantly.

Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2021, 11:58:11 AM

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Constantly knocking on my door, asking me to pour him drinks and bring them to him or do the dishes while I was in class.

This doesn't sound good.  I don't drink, but I never asked my kids to pour me anything, let alone constantly.

To be fair to him, drinks was just an example of one of many of the various things he'd do when knocking on my door - although there were a handful times he'd be seemingly go out of his way to be a pest about it. It wasn't common but it made me seriously think "WTF?" when he did do those sorts of things. Shortly after I turned 13, I had got a really bad case of pneumonia and I was completely passed out on the couch. It was one of those sicknesses where you're so messed up you literally can't even think (I think this is called brain fog), and I'd violently cough even by trying to change my position when I was laying down, could hardly talk, was constantly groaning, could hardly breathe, and a lot of other not-so-fun stuff. Not to mention they had me on some strong antibiotics with their own side effects.

He comes in from the back door from his little shed he watches TV in, standing in the doorway, and tells me to grab him a beer from the fridge, despite the fact I was obviously sick and had came back from the doctor a few days before (that he took me to) with a fever of 104 degrees. I went up and got him one despite being in pretty severe pain and discomfort, because he wouldn't budge. He hasn't done anything nearly as ridiculous as that since, but I still somehow remember that despite all the brain fog and literally losing track of time. I don't know how many days I was out.

That's messed up.

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 05:57:59 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on May 09, 2021, 02:20:09 PM
I have been working from home where there is no payroll (occupational tax). The town where my office is located levies a 2% tax. So in the 14-and-counting months since I've been working from home, I've had a de facto 2 percent raise, which is more of a raise than I have had since 2007. I won't enjoy having less take-home pay when I have to start paying the payroll tax.

I had no idea there were places where cities could charge payroll tax. As far as I know, that's not legal in Oklahoma.

I want to say that I think Memphis, TN was musing about setting up a payroll tax once upon a time.  I think the legislature put a stop to that one.

Quote from: texaskdog on May 23, 2021, 10:52:56 AM

Quote from: GaryV on May 09, 2021, 07:16:08 AM
From the possible arrangements I've heard, I'm not enthused about returning to the office.  The thing I hear most about is "hybrid", where you work from home some days and go in on others.  You wouldn't have an assigned space in the office, but would reserve a "hotel" desk.  No thank you.  I don't want to haul my stuff to and from work on the days I'm working there.  I want a space where I can keep things - simple stuff like pens and paper, reference materials, coffee cup, a fleece for those days that it's cold, etc.

Generally though they are so nuts about cleanliness now why would they do that?

Want to do what?  Hybrid?  Because the cubicles we had were too close together.  When they spread people out, there's not enough room for the whole staff in the office.

Quote from: index on May 23, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Obviously I'm not at the age where I'd have any job that would do this, but I will say that I hope that workplaces don't continue to do this after COVID where you have work-from-home-only job offerings or a mixed schedule in which some days you're regularly expected to work from home.

I don't see how it would be an issue if it's listed on the job opening for the position that it is work from home, or work from office, or both. Then people can decide whether to apply or not based on whether they like that kind of job. If I could find a work-from-home job that didn't require a college degree I'd pounce on it.

What causes a problem is when an employee has an expectation of certain working conditions and then gets forced into doing something else. Fundamentally it's the same problem as if you hired someone to be a secretary and then started demanding they move concrete blocks all day.

Quote from: GaryV on May 23, 2021, 01:13:52 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on May 23, 2021, 10:52:56 AM

Quote from: GaryV on May 09, 2021, 07:16:08 AM
From the possible arrangements I've heard, I'm not enthused about returning to the office.  The thing I hear most about is "hybrid", where you work from home some days and go in on others.  You wouldn't have an assigned space in the office, but would reserve a "hotel" desk.  No thank you.  I don't want to haul my stuff to and from work on the days I'm working there.  I want a space where I can keep things - simple stuff like pens and paper, reference materials, coffee cup, a fleece for those days that it's cold, etc.

Generally though they are so nuts about cleanliness now why would they do that?

Want to do what?  Hybrid?  Because the cubicles we had were too close together.  When they spread people out, there's not enough room for the whole staff in the office.

Our company is weird they are keeping the mask thing up (outside our cubicles) but reopening the office Wednesday.  Some departments coming back Wednesday, some in fall, some not at all.  but they are more nuts about wiping everything in common areas down. 

I honestly don't think I would like working from home but what I do I can't work from home anyway.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 23, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
The trick to working from home is to be able to have a regular schedule, a dedicated space or "something" where you and others in your environment know that you're "at work".

A lot of people say this but I find the opposite to be true. From my perspective the trick is: don't try to make working from home resemble working in an office. Embrace that it is a radically different way of doing things, that you can have tons of flexibility in where and when you actually work, and enjoy the freedom this provides.

As such, I don't quite adhere to a set schedule other than that I usually only work Monday through Friday and I vaguely try to be around during the majority of "normal business hours". But I will absolutely go out to run errands in the middle of the day to take advantage of stores being less crowded during times when poor saps with fixed schedules aren't able to be there. I will also absolutely sometimes be online and emailing people at 4 AM if I find myself having trouble sleeping (don't worry, I don't expect an immediate response to those :-D).
And while I do the majority of my work from the dining room table, I will sometimes move to another location in the house for an hour or two. I can also work from locations other than my own home so long as wifi is available, though I don't do this unless I have a specific reason to (e.g. some work is getting done on my car and it'll take a couple hours, so in the meantime...)


At any rate, I am also in the group of people who was working from home before it was cool (since 2014!). I am willing to go to an office for an in-person meeting occasionally, whether it is local, on the other side of the country, or anywhere in between. But I am not interested in showing up to one purely for the sake of compliance to some arbitrary routine.

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 01:00:09 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 05:57:59 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on May 09, 2021, 02:20:09 PM
I have been working from home where there is no payroll (occupational tax). The town where my office is located levies a 2% tax. So in the 14-and-counting months since I've been working from home, I've had a de facto 2 percent raise, which is more of a raise than I have had since 2007. I won't enjoy having less take-home pay when I have to start paying the payroll tax.

I had no idea there were places where cities could charge payroll tax. As far as I know, that's not legal in Oklahoma.

I want to say that I think Memphis, TN was musing about setting up a payroll tax once upon a time.  I think the legislature put a stop to that one.

Birmingham and several other suburbs have an occupation tax.  When I was a work study at UAB, I had to give the city of Birmingham money and I received absolutely no benefit from it.

Jefferson County also had an occupation tax.  It was later ruled unconstitutional.

For the better part of 10 years, I was a restaurant General Manager.  I got furloughed twice in 2020 and the second time around, I decided to switch gears and landed a gig at a medical software company.  So I went from having a job that was impossible to do from home to one where I am permanently remote.  My team is going back to the office in hybrid mode here in a couple of months, so I'll be the only one on the team that isn't ever in the office.

Chris

Quote from: Duke87 on May 24, 2021, 02:48:33 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 23, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
The trick to working from home is to be able to have a regular schedule, a dedicated space or "something" where you and others in your environment know that you're "at work".

A lot of people say this but I find the opposite to be true. From my perspective the trick is: don't try to make working from home resemble working in an office. Embrace that it is a radically different way of doing things, that you can have tons of flexibility in where and when you actually work, and enjoy the freedom this provides.

As such, I don't quite adhere to a set schedule other than that I usually only work Monday through Friday and I vaguely try to be around during the majority of "normal business hours". But I will absolutely go out to run errands in the middle of the day to take advantage of stores being less crowded during times when poor saps with fixed schedules aren't able to be there. I will also absolutely sometimes be online and emailing people at 4 AM if I find myself having trouble sleeping (don't worry, I don't expect an immediate response to those :-D).
And while I do the majority of my work from the dining room table, I will sometimes move to another location in the house for an hour or two. I can also work from locations other than my own home so long as wifi is available, though I don't do this unless I have a specific reason to (e.g. some work is getting done on my car and it'll take a couple hours, so in the meantime...)


At any rate, I am also in the group of people who was working from home before it was cool (since 2014!). I am willing to go to an office for an in-person meeting occasionally, whether it is local, on the other side of the country, or anywhere in between. But I am not interested in showing up to one purely for the sake of compliance to some arbitrary routine.

I wouldn't necessarily say that my "trick" is "making home resemble an office".

At my home, we're more-or-less set up with "his space", "her space" and "our space".  I work mostly in one room of the house, which also happens to have my personal computer and ham radio gear.  When at home, I "commute" by heading downstairs for meals, and I avoid spending "family time" in my work space.   My wife knows to leave me alone during business hours when I am in my work space.  She'll send text messages, etc. to communicate, and I will pop downstairs at convenient stopping points if she needs something of me (she's disabled)...but I don't get the "hey, come over here and look at this" or "what are we doing this weekend" kinds of conversations.

However, I do take advantage of some of the flexibility of working from home, in the sense that I frequently work what I call "bifurcated days":  I work for a few hours in the morning (meetings with my team members, fielding requests from the folks I support), do non-work stuff for a few hours, and then work a few more hours in the evening (my project work).  My wife and I both have too many doctors appointments...so this arrangement works for us.  I'll be traveling for the next couple of weeks, and even then the pattern will remain:  I'll log in for an hour or two most mornings before getting on the

Where I have invested to make things "resemble the office" are in getting a good office chair and a good VOIP phone.  The former is just a matter of comfort, while the latter is part of trying to make my WFH status a non-issue.  (Pre-pandemic, I was the only WFH employee in my department.  Given the biases against WFH in this part of my company, it seemed wise to not advertise my arrangements.)  And also I had to get a locking file cabinet and an approved shredder, per corporate policy...even though I'm paperless as far as work goes.

I do miss being in an office, and I look forward to when it becomes possible to start going back in (despite the 5-hour international commute).  But I don't miss office life enough to go back to having a long daily battle with traffic, or to give up the flexibility of juggling my work hours for work-life balance.

One thing working from home has done in my household is give my wife an appreciation of what I deal with. Last Wednesday, right at quitting time, I got hit with two things that needed to go out immediately. I told her, "now you see what's happening when I text you and tell you I'm going to be late leaving the office."

Quote from: hbelkins on May 24, 2021, 10:17:14 PM
One thing working from home has done in my household is give my wife an appreciation of what I deal with. Last Wednesday, right at quitting time, I got hit with two things that needed to go out immediately. I told her, "now you see what's happening when I text you and tell you I'm going to be late leaving the office."

But you need to quit now and start the grill, or dinner will be late! ;)

We have our directions on going back. We're going back in three waves, and most of us got to choose when we wanted to go back. The first wave went back today, the second wave (the one I chose) goes back June 28, and the third wave goes back July 12.

Most of us have been given the option to permanently telecommute (work duties permitting) two days a week. I have applied for it and plan to work from home Wednesday and Thursday. There may be days when I have to go in four or all five days, but otherwise I'm optimistic I can continue to telecommute two days a week.

I made a couple remarks in the thread on the other board, but here's an extended version of my thoughts.

I'm a 20 year-old university student, entering my fourth year of college this fall (second at university, following two years in community college). I am wholeheartedly looking forward to normal classes this fall. Online schooling for college students can work on paper, and it can work well for some students who only care to get their degrees and move on with life. But as for me, I just can't do them. I do not have the self-discipline to stay on top of them, whether that be going to Zoom classes, or Zoom office hours, or turning in homework all online. It didn't matter when I was finishing up community college, living at home with my parents, or living in a dorm room the past year. I struggled with both situations, and I acknowledge that some of that is my own fault. Not being forced to get up and out to bike across campus to an actual classroom really kills motivation. Also, just being on Zoom isn't as pleasant as live class for learning or for socializing. You basically don't meet fellow students on Zoom, aside from potential group projects.

Ah yes, socializing: one of the signatures of attending university. I should highlight that I never wanted to go to parties, or get wasted, or things of that nature. Virus or not, I find that all stupid. I just wanted to be able to befriend people in my classes or sign up for something like marching band and enjoy an activity with others. Maybe try and find a girlfriend. The usual stuff. When everything is all shut down, and everyone's forced to wear a mask, and you're forced to get tested every week, risking a ten day quarantine each time, even if you feel great... life is kinda shit. It was a bit depressing and frustrating, especially when there seemed no end in sight. If you have a decent friend network already, then you probably did fine. But I can't say that, since nearly all my friends and I parted ways last year, and I had to make new friends at school with all this garbage. And I still feel like I've had it better than most people!

I'm sorry for getting off topic, but since I'm a university student, it ties in with returning to normal classes. Yes, I'm happy to return to normalcy because even if it's mundane, even if sometimes it seems boring, it beats the alternative of what we've been forced to deal with for over an entire year.

I get it, some people like Rothman prefer to work from home. And that's fine. I understand this is a cliché statement, but one of the concepts of America is about getting to choose your own destiny. Whether you see yourself cruising along at home, or cruising down the highway on your morning commute should be your decision.

What has irritated me above all else this whole time was that the government representatives forced us all into this "new reality" while lying and constantly changing the rules at the drop of a hat, all while they made trips around the country or had maskless dinners and still had the gall to defend their own COVID hypocrisy with crocodile tears, begging for forgiveness.

Now that mask restrictions have ended where I live, and I've been able to smile to customers at the store I'm back working at for the summer when I check them out and see them smile back, things feel much better and pleasant. And I'm looking forward to seeing more of this in my last year in school.  :thumbsup:

My wife was fully back in the office starting a week ago.  Apparently remote work wasn't on the table given they resumed in-person visits with the behavioral health department.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
I do not have the self-discipline to stay on top of them, whether that be going to Zoom classes, or Zoom office hours, or turning in homework all online. [...] Also, just being on Zoom isn't as pleasant as live class for learning or for socializing. You basically don't meet fellow students on Zoom, aside from potential group projects.

I kind of feel like part of the problem here was Zoom, which I've never used but have never heard much positive about. I haven't the foggiest idea why everyone decided to standardize on that, as it sounds vaguely nauseating. My social circle migrated to Discord during the pandemic and I have no complaints. We actually found that we preferred hanging out on Discord better than in-person because I live about a half-hour to 45 minutes east of all my friends (I live in the city, they all live in the country) so it's just easier for everyone to stay at home and sign on to a voice chat than it is to come out, wait for everyone to arrive, set up, decide where we're ordering food from, hang out, then drive back home. And during the week when we're not on voice we can send messages to the group text chat to stay in touch.

I think another part of the problem with WFH is everyone trying to make video calls to be a thing. Video calls are a solution in search of a problem. We get it, it looked cool on Star Trek TNG when Captain Picard was placing sternly-worded calls to the Romulans, but Patrick Stewart had a makeup department and an immaculately designed and maintained set he got to sit in front of. Everyone looks terrible on a webcam and that stresses people out. I find that a voice call with no camera is a lot less stressful for everyone involved. Plus, if you're not broadcasting video, you can use that bandwidth to screen-share instead if you have something that would be relevant to share that way. If you haven't heard from someone in a while on a voice call, instead of looking at the camera to see if they're zoning out, the meeting leader should just pipe up and say "Liz, haven't heard from you in a while, what are your thoughts on this?" But they should be doing that in in-person and video call meetings too.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
What has irritated me above all else this whole time was that the government representatives forced us all into this "new reality" while lying and constantly changing the rules at the drop of a hat, all while they made trips around the country or had maskless dinners and still had the gall to defend their own COVID hypocrisy with crocodile tears, begging for forgiveness.

I'm not sure how to tell you that COVID-19 was a new thing and nobody knew how to keep people safe without everyone rebelling. How to manage the need to keep PPE available for healthcare workers while managing the free market. Sure, politicians not following the rules didn't help make people want to cooperate, but there are plenty of politicians that did follow their own rules and still got shit on for it. And then you have politicians like my governor who went to Walmart while COVID-positive and breathed on everyone, but technically wasn't being a hypocrite because he never signed a statewide mask mandate into law.

I have a much easier time sympathizing with a government official who is trying to keep people safe and maybe going a bit overboard than I do a private citizen who is putting others at risk out of some perceived threat to their...something or other.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
Now that mask restrictions have ended where I live, and I've been able to smile to customers at the store I'm back working at for the summer when I check them out and see them smile back, things feel much better and pleasant. And I'm looking forward to seeing more of this in my last year in school.  :thumbsup:

The one nice thing about wearing a mask at work was that I didn't have people subjecting me to unnecessary conversations about my facial expressions. "Hey buddy, how about a smile?" Hey buddy, how about you let me concentrate on counting your chips instead of on contorting my face into an unnatural shape so I don't short you $25? (Cause whenever I made mistakes, for some reason it always ended up in the house's favor. Nice for me since I didn't have to pay anything back in that case.)

What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place? Can't have that.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
I do not have the self-discipline to stay on top of them, whether that be going to Zoom classes, or Zoom office hours, or turning in homework all online. [...] Also, just being on Zoom isn't as pleasant as live class for learning or for socializing. You basically don't meet fellow students on Zoom, aside from potential group projects.

I kind of feel like part of the problem here was Zoom, which I've never used but have never heard much positive about. I haven't the foggiest idea why everyone decided to standardize on that, as it sounds vaguely nauseating. My social circle migrated to Discord during the pandemic and I have no complaints. We actually found that we preferred hanging out on Discord better than in-person because I live about a half-hour to 45 minutes east of all my friends (I live in the city, they all live in the country) so it's just easier for everyone to stay at home and sign on to a voice chat than it is to come out, wait for everyone to arrive, set up, decide where we're ordering food from, hang out, then drive back home. And during the week when we're not on voice we can send messages to the group text chat to stay in touch.

I think another part of the problem with WFH is everyone trying to make video calls to be a thing. Video calls are a solution in search of a problem. We get it, it looked cool on Star Trek TNG when Captain Picard was placing sternly-worded calls to the Romulans, but Patrick Stewart had a makeup department and an immaculately designed and maintained set he got to sit in front of. Everyone looks terrible on a webcam and that stresses people out. I find that a voice call with no camera is a lot less stressful for everyone involved. Plus, if you're not broadcasting video, you can use that bandwidth to screen-share instead if you have something that would be relevant to share that way. If you haven't heard from someone in a while on a voice call, instead of looking at the camera to see if they're zoning out, the meeting leader should just pipe up and say "Liz, haven't heard from you in a while, what are your thoughts on this?" But they should be doing that in in-person and video call meetings too.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
What has irritated me above all else this whole time was that the government representatives forced us all into this "new reality" while lying and constantly changing the rules at the drop of a hat, all while they made trips around the country or had maskless dinners and still had the gall to defend their own COVID hypocrisy with crocodile tears, begging for forgiveness.

I'm not sure how to tell you that COVID-19 was a new thing and nobody knew how to keep people safe without everyone rebelling. How to manage the need to keep PPE available for healthcare workers while managing the free market. Sure, politicians not following the rules didn't help make people want to cooperate, but there are plenty of politicians that did follow their own rules and still got shit on for it. And then you have politicians like my governor who went to Walmart while COVID-positive and breathed on everyone, but technically wasn't being a hypocrite because he never signed a statewide mask mandate into law.

I have a much easier time sympathizing with a government official who is trying to keep people safe and maybe going a bit overboard than I do a private citizen who is putting others at risk out of some perceived threat to their...something or other.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
Now that mask restrictions have ended where I live, and I've been able to smile to customers at the store I'm back working at for the summer when I check them out and see them smile back, things feel much better and pleasant. And I'm looking forward to seeing more of this in my last year in school.  :thumbsup:

The one nice thing about wearing a mask at work was that I didn't have people subjecting me to unnecessary conversations about my facial expressions. "Hey buddy, how about a smile?" Hey buddy, how about you let me concentrate on counting your chips instead of on contorting my face into an unnatural shape so I don't short you $25? (Cause whenever I made mistakes, for some reason it always ended up in the house's favor. Nice for me since I didn't have to pay anything back in that case.)

What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place? Can't have that.

I also prefer voice chats to video chats.

The only thing I'll miss about masks is the ability to yawn during a meeting without coming across as rude.

The latest word is that the earliest we can start working at the office again is September. Maybe.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:44 PM
I do not have the self-discipline to stay on top of them, whether that be going to Zoom classes, or Zoom office hours, or turning in homework all online. [...] Also, just being on Zoom isn't as pleasant as live class for learning or for socializing. You basically don't meet fellow students on Zoom, aside from potential group projects.

I kind of feel like part of the problem here was Zoom, which I've never used but have never heard much positive about. I haven't the foggiest idea why everyone decided to standardize on that, as it sounds vaguely nauseating.

I have used Zoom quite a bit for a variety of functions/events/purposes. It works surprisingly well for any sort of lesson or meeting where one person is doing most of the talking, or at the very least when there is some sort of understood/pre-established order and people mute when they're not speaking.

It does not work well for normal socializing, especially when there are more than two participants, and especially when people who are together physically talk amongst themselves while unmuted. Then you are correct, it is vaguely nauseating, and has indeed left me with a headache on more than one occasion.

I was already working nearly 100% from home when COVID hit. My division had a reorganization in 2018, and I got transferred to an office 250 miles away. I got to work from home in lieu of moving in exchange for giving up the $60k+ I would have gotten in relocation expenses.

My required travel to my office declined due to COVID. I went from about six trips per year down to two.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 12:25:22 AM
I also prefer voice chats to video chats.

I prefer emails/texts/written messages over any type of voice or video chats. Don't call me when an email or text will suffice. I try to avoid talking on the phone whenever possible.

Regarding Zoom and other video apps, I've had to use several of them over the past 15 months. I've done conferences/meetings via MS Teams, Zoom, and BlueJeans. I've done media interviews via Zoom and FaceTime. We've been told to expect continued widespread use of remote meetings (probably because it's cheaper than paying for gas or expenses to travel to Frankfort). That, for the most part, suits me fine, because I'd rather log in to a remote video meeting at 9 a.m. than get up early and drive two hours to the mothership for a meeting.

Unless I have a need to be on camera (a television interview that's being recorded) I typically keep my camera off during those. I also keep my microphone off unless I need to speak.

It seems some of you younger folks have a greater need for socialization/personal interaction than I do. As I've gotten older, I've become more and more content with my own company.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 15, 2021, 11:29:45 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 12:25:22 AM
I also prefer voice chats to video chats.

I prefer emails/texts/written messages over any type of voice or video chats. Don't call me when an email or text will suffice. I try to avoid talking on the phone whenever possible.

Regarding Zoom and other video apps, I've had to use several of them over the past 15 months. I've done conferences/meetings via MS Teams, Zoom, and BlueJeans. I've done media interviews via Zoom and FaceTime. We've been told to expect continued widespread use of remote meetings (probably because it's cheaper than paying for gas or expenses to travel to Frankfort). That, for the most part, suits me fine, because I'd rather log in to a remote video meeting at 9 a.m. than get up early and drive two hours to the mothership for a meeting.

Unless I have a need to be on camera (a television interview that's being recorded) I typically keep my camera off during those. I also keep my microphone off unless I need to speak.

It seems some of you younger folks have a greater need for socialization/personal interaction than I do. As I've gotten older, I've become more and more content with my own company.

I'm younger but I'm pretty much the same way, I prefer written messages to phone calls and hate turning my camera on. I do enjoy socialization and need it, but virtual socialization is extremely shitty and not a good substitute.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place?

So the customers actually feel welcome?

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2021, 05:57:59 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on May 09, 2021, 02:20:09 PM
I have been working from home where there is no payroll (occupational tax). The town where my office is located levies a 2% tax. So in the 14-and-counting months since I've been working from home, I've had a de facto 2 percent raise, which is more of a raise than I have had since 2007. I won't enjoy having less take-home pay when I have to start paying the payroll tax.

I had no idea there were places where cities could charge payroll tax. As far as I know, that's not legal in Oklahoma.

Oh, my.  Every burg in Pennsylvania has an income tax, plus there are school district taxes based on residency.  Similar for much of Ohio.  Kentucky and Indiana have county payroll taxes.  Several cities here in Michigan are authorized by law (due to their population) to impose an income tax not only on residents but also on nonresidents working in those cities.  I certainly enjoyed paying a lot less Detroit tax last year.

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 12:57:27 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place?

So the customers actually feel welcome?

The fact that the door's unlocked and they're paying someone to stand there and take your money isn't enough of a tip-off?

Let's be real here. Whenever a cashier smiles at you they are putting on an act. It is fake. Some of them are better fakers than others. Just about the only time a cashier is smiling genuinely is if they have a vested interest in the business (that is, if they're the owner, or if it's small enough they actually feel like they make a difference in the rise or fall of the business, or else they are foolish enough to believe that if they help make Target more money they'll get something out of it), or if they're thinking about what they're going to do when their shift ends.

When I go into a business I want the person helping me to do so competently and quickly. I don't give a damn what they do with their face muscles when they're doing it. I'm there to conduct business, not watch a performance act.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 15, 2021, 11:29:45 AM
It seems some of you younger folks have a greater need for socialization/personal interaction than I do. As I've gotten older, I've become more and more content with my own company.

I'm just over half your age and I feel the same way, so it's not an age thing. Just what you're used to. I was an only child growing up, so I've always been content with amusing myself. When I need to socialize, I either talk to my wife or hop on the internet and bug someone in one of my group chats.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 12:57:27 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place?

So the customers actually feel welcome?

The fact that the door's unlocked and they're paying someone to stand there and take your money isn't enough of a tip-off?

Let's be real here. Whenever a cashier smiles at you they are putting on an act. It is fake. Some of them are better fakers than others. Just about the only time a cashier is smiling genuinely is if they have a vested interest in the business (that is, if they're the owner, or if it's small enough they actually feel like they make a difference in the rise or fall of the business, or else they are foolish enough to believe that if they help make Target more money they'll get something out of it), or if they're thinking about what they're going to do when their shift ends.

When I go into a business I want the person helping me to do so competently and quickly. I don't give a damn what they do with their face muscles when they're doing it. I'm there to conduct business, not watch a performance act.

Is it not fair to assume you might be in the minority on that, though?  Or at least that there are plenty of people who would rather shop where the clerks at least seem friendly than somewhere they don't?

Also, there are people who enjoy their job.  Granted, during my brief stint at Target in 2000-2001, I only actually had one cashier co-worker who seemed to really and actually enjoy it, but still, they do exist.  (Me?  I hated doing cashier, and I was glad I only had to once a month or so.)

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 02:49:15 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 12:57:27 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
What's the point in people insisting that service workers smile, anyway? Is it because if they don't they might realize the place they're doing business in is a miserable dump, and they might have to sit down and take a long, hard, inconvenient look at the consequences of spending money in a place?

So the customers actually feel welcome?

The fact that the door's unlocked and they're paying someone to stand there and take your money isn't enough of a tip-off?

Let's be real here. Whenever a cashier smiles at you they are putting on an act. It is fake. Some of them are better fakers than others. Just about the only time a cashier is smiling genuinely is if they have a vested interest in the business (that is, if they're the owner, or if it's small enough they actually feel like they make a difference in the rise or fall of the business, or else they are foolish enough to believe that if they help make Target more money they'll get something out of it), or if they're thinking about what they're going to do when their shift ends.

When I go into a business I want the person helping me to do so competently and quickly. I don't give a damn what they do with their face muscles when they're doing it. I'm there to conduct business, not watch a performance act.

Is it not fair to assume you might be in the minority on that, though?  Or at least that there are plenty of people who would rather shop where the clerks at least seem friendly than somewhere they don't?

Also, there are people who enjoy their job.  Granted, during my brief stint at Target in 2000-2001, I only actually had one cashier co-worker who seemed to really and actually enjoy it, but still, they do exist.  (Me?  I hated doing cashier, and I was glad I only had to once a month or so.)

Some people just have very friendly personalities.  Some people are better at smiling on a bad day than others because they are grateful for what they already have.

Also, some people genuinely enjoy interacting with others. I'm not generally one of those people, but I'm sure we all know people that are.

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 02:49:15 PM
Is it not fair to assume you might be in the minority on that, though?  Or at least that there are plenty of people who would rather shop where the clerks at least seem friendly than somewhere they don't?

What does "friendly" mean, though? Let's see what the dictionary says:

Quote from: Merriam-Websterof, relating to, or befitting a friend:

I invite my friends over to my house and we hang out, talk for hours, and play games. We talk about our problems and comfort one another about them. I often let them crash on the couch if they don't feel like driving home afterward.

Maybe the Target cashier is a cool enough person I would like to be her friend if I got to know her, but Target isn't the right venue to find out if she is or not, because doing so would take some time and I don't want to hold up her line. Other people need to check out too.

Also, when I was a cashier, people trying to form weird parasocial relationships like that over the counter kind of creeped me out–there is a power dynamic there because they are free to share whatever sort of thing pops into their head, even if it makes me feel uncomfortable, but if I disagree with them then they can tell my boss I was rude and I could get in trouble. So I don't want to put anyone else in that situation. I just do my business, am pleasant, and leave. My goal is to leave so little of an impression that the cashier forgets I existed 5 minutes later.

Quote from: Merriam-Webstersuch as
a : showing kindly interest and goodwill

Being kind and acting with goodwill is generally helpful for a business transaction. Showing interest? Ehhh... I've been in a few stores where I was buying groceries and the cashier started verbally speculating about what I was going to make with them. No, Ernest, I'm not making a giant lasagna, your store is the only one that carries my favorite pasta sauce so I'm buying ten bottles to keep in my pantry. Why do I have to justify my purchase to you again?

Ideally, a customer-service employee has enough interest to suss out what the customer wants and how to make that happen. Too much and you're overstepping boundaries and getting distracted by stuff that doesn't matter (if you are withdrawing money from the bank, I need to know whether you want it back in smaller bills, but I don't really need to know that you want it in small bills because you're doing a garage sale). Too little and you're a pain to deal with because you're too inflexible and give the customer something they don't really want. It's a tough line to balance.

In any case, none of that really justifies a fake smile. And I've had people fake-smile at me while acting unkindly and without goodwill. The fake smile kind of makes that worse.

Quote from: Merriam-Websterb : not hostile

I do like it when people aren't hostile. But you can be not hostile with a neutral expression on your face.

Quote from: Merriam-Websterc : cheerful, comforting

Here's the crux of it. Do I really need my cashier to be cheerful? I mean, we know already they're not, actually, in most cases, experiencing cheer, based on the fact that they're probably making something like $10/hour or less, with random days off that change from week to week, and often aren't allowed basic human dignities like a chair to sit down in. So do I really need my cashier to fake being cheerful?

I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to be cheerful at work, mind you. Even in the hellhole where I worked as a cashier, there were a few people that really got into learning all the customers' names and life stories and being friendly to them. But those people were often the ones at the end of the night who had to go over their paperwork with a fine toothed comb because they got distracted, fucked up, and overpaid a customer at some point. And meanwhile I had to deal with catty comments from random people I didn't know because I dared to focus on the task at hand rather than faking a smile, but the result was that the drawer was usually perfectly balanced.

I've decided that we agree.  Good.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
[...]

There's definitely a lot to say about Zoom versus other video/voice chat programs. And while I wasn't referring specifically to having to use Zoom versus something like Microsoft Teams, that's definitely a valid point. Using Discord is great in comparison, and I've heard that some teachers actually straight-up have used Discord to host classes, take attendance, etc. But I meant more completing classes online in general. That's the part I struggle with. It doesn't matter what platform the teacher is using.

Also, I actually like when the teacher encourages leaving the camera on, because when I have the camera on, I'm more likely to stay focused and also remember that I'm in a live class. It's too easy to get distracted otherwise.

I'll bypass the politics of virus restrictions, but I'll certainly cut slack because in March 2020, we really didn't know what to expect with COVID. But months and months later, we very much do. Something, something, hindsight 20/20. But anyways, let's move on.

Finally, I actually do try to smile at customers and be friendly, some of them go out of their way to say they appreciated it. I've worked at the same store for three and a half years, and I like my job. I know not everyone can say that, not where I work, and certainly not all retail workers, but I can. And when I smile, it's not forced. At the end of my days, I'm still tired and become less sociable, but that's usually how it goes.

Quote from: webny99 on June 15, 2021, 03:07:42 PM
Also, some people genuinely enjoy interacting with others. I'm not generally one of those people, but I'm sure we all know people that are.

This would be me at the moment. Maybe this will change as I get older. Who knows.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 15, 2021, 07:42:58 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
[...]

There's definitely a lot to say about Zoom versus other video/voice chat programs. And while I wasn't referring specifically to having to use Zoom versus something like Microsoft Teams, that's definitely a valid point. Using Discord is great in comparison, and I've heard that some teachers actually straight-up have used Discord to host classes, take attendance, etc. But I meant more completing classes online in general. That's the part I struggle with. It doesn't matter what platform the teacher is using.

Also, I actually like when the teacher encourages leaving the camera on, because when I have the camera on, I'm more likely to stay focused and also remember that I'm in a live class. It's too easy to get distracted otherwise.

I'll bypass the politics of virus restrictions, but I'll certainly cut slack because in March 2020, we really didn't know what to expect with COVID. But months and months later, we very much do. Something, something, hindsight 20/20. But anyways, let's move on.

Finally, I actually do try to smile at customers and be friendly, some of them go out of their way to say they appreciated it. I've worked at the same store for three and a half years, and I like my job. I know not everyone can say that, not where I work, and certainly not all retail workers, but I can. And when I smile, it's not forced. At the end of my days, I'm still tired and become less sociable, but that's usually how it goes.

Quote from: webny99 on June 15, 2021, 03:07:42 PM
Also, some people genuinely enjoy interacting with others. I'm not generally one of those people, but I'm sure we all know people that are.

This would be me at the moment. Maybe this will change as I get older. Who knows.

Discord also doesn't seem to work as well as zoom. Discord is more prone to cutting out.

What Discord issues I've had, I suspect are actually rooted in ISP or LAN network latency issues. My regular weekly Discord voice chats have involved two folks from Riverside CA, myself in Norman OK, one in rural McClain County OK, and one in even more rural Grady County OK. The Grady County user has the most issues and has to drop out of the call and rejoin it about once every few weeks or so. McClain County has had some issues, but not as many as Grady. Meanwhile, we have had few issues in Norman and Riverside. One of the Riverside users even joined us once from his phone on CA 91, with no issues.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 12:23:35 AM
What Discord issues I've had, I suspect are actually rooted in ISP or LAN network latency issues. My regular weekly Discord voice chats have involved two folks from Riverside CA, myself in Norman OK, one in rural McClain County OK, and one in even more rural Grady County OK. The Grady County user has the most issues and has to drop out of the call and rejoin it about once every few weeks or so. McClain County has had some issues, but not as many as Grady. Meanwhile, we have had few issues in Norman and Riverside. One of the Riverside users even joined us once from his phone on CA 91, with no issues.

If you get dropped from a Discord call only once every few weeks, I'd say he's doing pretty good.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 16, 2021, 09:05:34 AM
If you get dropped from a Discord call only once every few weeks, I'd say he's doing pretty good.

We've never had anyone actually drop from the call unless there's something wrong with their Internet or computer. The most common mode of failure is latency causing packets to drop, which manifests as having a slowed-down "robot voice". Usually hanging up and rejoining the call, or resetting the router/modem, fixes it.

I started a new job at the end of March and I've been in the office five days a week the entire time (except for a day and a half working from home for non-job reasons). My coworkers and I have separate cubicles which are all separated from each other by well over six feet. I much prefer working in the office as the programs run much faster there and I have three monitors. Side note: I've been vaccinated since April as my sister and I signed up for vaccines as soon as eligibility opened to our age group. Speaking of my sister, her workplace reopened the offices a few weeks ago, so she goes into the office between once and twice per week. She prefers working from home as she gets to work with her four-pawed coworker and she has a lot of video calls every day.

From NPR:

Returning to the office, a moment of joy for some. Others, would rather stay home

QuoteSteve Tordone has been waiting for this moment for two years. Sure, he's got a great set up for working at home, and it was nice to be around the family and the dogs. But he prefers working at his office in a downtown Boston high-rise where he works as a financial advisor.

"I'm an outdoor cat and I just want I want to see people," he says, "I can't wait for it to get crowded."

Tordone is starting to get his wish. In Boston, as across the nation, a "back-to-work March" has begun. With the omicron variant now on the wane, companies from American Express to Meta and Citigroup — are officially calling on employees to return to the office this month, while also trying to stay flexible enough so as not to lose those who prefer to work from home. Many firms are starting with "soft openings," but already, offices, streets and garages are filling back up.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2im)

As of the beginning of March, I am now allowed to work in the office. I was going nuts when a home office that I expected to work-from-home only occasionally became my main office for two years. I just wonder how many people's plans to return to the office got stymied by the shock increase in gas prices. It doesn't affect me, as I can walk to the office (15 minutes each way, anyone?).

Quote from: ZLoth on March 09, 2022, 11:38:46 PM
From NPR:

Returning to the office, a moment of joy for some. Others, would rather stay home

QuoteSteve Tordone has been waiting for this moment for two years. Sure, he's got a great set up for working at home, and it was nice to be around the family and the dogs. But he prefers working at his office in a downtown Boston high-rise where he works as a financial advisor.

"I'm an outdoor cat and I just want I want to see people," he says, "I can't wait for it to get crowded."

Tordone is starting to get his wish. In Boston, as across the nation, a "back-to-work March" has begun. With the omicron variant now on the wane, companies from American Express to Meta and Citigroup — are officially calling on employees to return to the office this month, while also trying to stay flexible enough so as not to lose those who prefer to work from home. Many firms are starting with "soft openings," but already, offices, streets and garages are filling back up.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2im)

As of the beginning of March, I am now allowed to work in the office. I was going nuts when a home office that I expected to work-from-home only occasionally became my main office for two years. I just wonder how many people's plans to return to the office got stymied by the shock increase in gas prices. It doesn't affect me, as I can walk to the office (15 minutes each way, anyone?).

I walk to my office in under 10 minutes.

The only trick with telecommuting is that there are times I wish I could just grab everyone for five minutes instead of having to set up a web conference or call.

But, that's a small price to pay so people can work from home.

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 23, 2021, 06:21:23 PM
If I could find a work-from-home job that didn't require a college degree I'd pounce on it.

Well, past Scott, you'll succeed at that in October.

I just measured the walk to my office: 22'7". And I love it that way.

Our hybrid work schedule (part-time work from home and trips to the office) began last week, and it's been going well in spite of many delays and some misgivings. It's hard to believe it's been exactly two years since  we were sent home. Commuting into Boston is still a pain, but not nearly as crowded. The city is also coming back to life, although there are still many empty storefronts and few businesses open that aren't chains. There are still capacity limits as far as having too many people in the office at once.  Pretty much everyone I know, esp. those with children, love the flexibility offered by hybrid work. So far, so good.

Our offices are open for folks who want to come in, and "essential business travel" is now allowed.

However, managers cannot require staff to be in-office for mandatorily-in-person meetings before May, and the company's position on "new normal" after that time is (depending on who you ask): "do what makes sense for your team" or "we would like you to come in frequently, but there is no minimum number of days a week you need to be in", with managers being allowed to require physical attendance for some meetings.

I'm still officially full-time WFH (although I had to do some paperwork to confirm that status).  Not certain yet when I'll start shuttling up to the Montreal office, since during the pandemic we had some staffing changes and acquired another insurer....so my team is now scattered among Montréal, Toronto, and India.

Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
The only trick with telecommuting is that there are times I wish I could just grab everyone for five minutes instead of having to set up a web conference or call.

But, that's a small price to pay so people can work from home.

To me, that's not a small price.  That's by far the biggest reason I disliked working from home during those seven weeks a couple of years ago.  It's why, when we had the option of working from home a while later, I said no way.

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

I started a new job back in April of 2021.  The company is headquartered in Chicago, and I have a workspace at the head office, but:

(a) of the ~60 employees, only five live in/near Chicago
(b) also likely due to the fact that literally no one goes to the office five days a week, my home office setup is miles better than the setup at my workspace.

We are working on selling our place and buying a new one, where I'll have my own office (I've been temporarily borrowing my wife's office for the last two years).  I agree that, at the end of the day, it's better to work in person than virtually, but the fact that my boss lives in Seattle, and his boss lives in Oklahoma City, and his boss lives in Milwaukee, means that speaking to any of them in person isn't an option anyway.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 10:31:45 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
The only trick with telecommuting is that there are times I wish I could just grab everyone for five minutes instead of having to set up a web conference or call.

But, that's a small price to pay so people can work from home.

To me, that's not a small price.  That's by far the biggest reason I disliked working from home during those seven weeks a couple of years ago.  It's why, when we had the option of working from home a while later, I said no way.

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Call them...

Some of my "business casual" hasn't seen daylight in two years.

For better or worse, I've grown to like rolling out of bed pretty much whenever I'm ready and logging in to work rocking my "leisure attire" all day every day.  Yeah there's still some things that go better in the office and I'll duck in once a week maybe for that, but that's more out of the desire to hit the grocery store on the way home than a need to go in.

I guess what is nice about office days, though, is shooting the shit with coworkers again.  Yeah you can chat things at each other throughout the day, but it's not the same.  I am also looking forward to the return of impromptu happy hours.  Spur of the moment, today was rough so let's hit the nearby watering hole.  With the remote work, it takes more coordination since everyone isn't starting from the same place.  So that leads such brainstorms to die in committee, as it were.

I started work at the office again last June and I mix and match between home/office.  I had a bedroom that was a pseudo office and housed my homemade gaming rig.  I had to improvise to set up using folding tables but in the end, I have dedicated space that is not my couch or my bed.  I need to do the office thing even if it means driving 1/2 hour one way just to get myself out of the house (otherwise I feel trapped.  9 days from now I recall being day 1 of 100% remote work.  the day before was leary because I drove around Dubuque, IA - and the level of traffic that day was like traffic on Sunday - or at 2 AM.

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2022, 03:16:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 10:31:45 AM
I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Call them...

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 09:08:18 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2022, 03:16:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 10:31:45 AM
I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Call them...

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

You're the reason we can't have nice things.

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2022, 11:18:10 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 09:08:18 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2022, 03:16:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 10:31:45 AM
I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Call them...

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

You're the reason we can't have nice things.

To be fair, call them wasn't exactly a rebuttal to the point.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 09:08:18 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2022, 03:16:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 10:31:45 AM
I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Call them...

I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

I don't have that option. Most of the people with whom I'd need to talk are usually busy with someone else already. So it's easier for me to just email, text, or even call (my least-preferred option) and I can do that whether I'm in an office next door or at home.

Work from home? what's that? I work a job that is impossible to work from home, and frankly, I don't think I'd ever want to work from home. I need the time out of the house, and to be able to separate work from home and family time. I'd have too many distractions at home to ever get any kind of work done. And I would miss the interaction, both good and bad, that I get from my co-workers and customers. I need that kind of balance between asking my dogs, "what did you do THAT for?" and customers (in my head anyway), "what did you do THAT for?"

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2022, 09:08:18 PM
I can't stand not being able to just walk into someone's office, point to the computer screen, and ask a direct question.

Most of the folks I work with very quickly got the hang of sending quick messages in Teams and sharing screens as needed.

That's been one upside of the pandemic from my perspective; my coworkers no longer think it's remarkable that I'm full-time WFH, and their proficiency/comfort with the tools to facilitate that has increased to usable levels.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on March 11, 2022, 11:42:59 AM
Teams

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1586331326.0326/flat,128x,075,f-pad,128x128,f8f8f8.jpg)

Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2022, 11:48:04 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on March 11, 2022, 11:42:59 AM
Teams

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1586331326.0326/flat,128x,075,f-pad,128x128,f8f8f8.jpg)

Lol what's wrong with Teams? I find the screen sharing very useful (arguably better than in-person). It's also cool that people can use their cursors on another person's screen.

Quote from: 7/8 on March 11, 2022, 12:00:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2022, 11:48:04 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on March 11, 2022, 11:42:59 AM
Teams

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1586331326.0326/flat,128x,075,f-pad,128x128,f8f8f8.jpg)

Lol what's wrong with Teams? I find the screen sharing very useful (arguably better than in-person). It's also cool that people can use their cursors on another person's screen.

For basic stuff, Teams is ok. Once you get into slightly more elevated reports and files, Teams can't handle it too well.

I find WebEx better than Teams.  Have had fewer issues with people connecting with varied platforms with WebEx.

Quote from: tchafe1978 on March 11, 2022, 10:56:23 AM
Work from home? what's that? I work a job that is impossible to work from home, and frankly, I don't think I'd ever want to work from home. I need the time out of the house, and to be able to separate work from home and family time. I'd have too many distractions at home to ever get any kind of work done. And I would miss the interaction, both good and bad, that I get from my co-workers and customers. I need that kind of balance between asking my dogs, "what did you do THAT for?" and customers (in my head anyway), "what did you do THAT for?"

I found that if I made sure that I took steps to separate work at home from home, that the division was easy.  Just dressing up for the day per usual did the trick.

There is nothing worse than trying to copy something into a Teams chat. The formatting is beyond bizarre.

Teams is not at all intuitive and is my second least favorite of the various online meeting softwares I've had to use. Only Bluejeans is worse. Zoom and Google Meet are far superior.

How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

I've been more or less permanently remote since 2018. My office is about 250 miles away. Before COVID I was going on site about 4-6 weeks per year in one week chunks. Since COVID I've only been down there twice.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

I'm currently doing contract work for a guy I've only met in person once. I've never even been to the state his business is based in. We communicate solely through email and Facebook Messenger. Which is perfect for me, as I'm far more comfortable communicating in writing than in person.

Our office is finally starting to begin a soft reopen on Monday, with the option of continuing to work from home.  Doesn't really affect me since I am retiring in a month.  I miss my group (control system engineers) and I do not like Teams meetings (only one person can talk at a time, and we have one person that manipulates that), but I don't miss the 70-mile round-trip commute -- especially with gas north of $4/gallon here in south Louisiana.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

I was permanently remote before the pandemic and that won't change. I do go into the office on rare occasions, but the key word there is "rare."

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Semi-permanent. Minimum of three days in the office with two days at home (with the stipulation that if the need arises, I have to go in on one of my scheduled telecommute days.)

With the way gas prices are now, I'm grateful that I'm not having to make a 60-mile round-trip five days a week in a vehicle that gets, at best, 17 mpg.

Between gas and no payroll tax, I saved a lot of money when I was working from home 95 percent of the time with only an occasional trip to the office to pick up mail or if something else came up.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

I am, even though I work in the same city as where my office was.

I've been coming in one day a week for the last two years - the five of us in our section take turns.  The department wants everyone to come in Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and work from home Monday and Friday, starting in April.  My section boss is making a counter-proposal where each of us comes in two days a week, and there are two of us there every day.  I really wouldn't mind either, as long as it's consistent.  And since I live in Wilmington, I'm paying 1 1/4 % wage tax regardless.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2022, 05:10:39 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Semi-permanent. Minimum of three days in the office with two days at home (with the stipulation that if the need arises, I have to go in on one of my scheduled telecommute days.)

With the way gas prices are now, I'm grateful that I'm not having to make a 60-mile round-trip five days a week in a vehicle that gets, at best, 17 mpg.

Between gas and no payroll tax, I saved a lot of money when I was working from home 95 percent of the time with only an occasional trip to the office to pick up mail or if something else came up.

How did payroll tax come into play with working remotely? 

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 08:53:10 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2022, 05:10:39 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Semi-permanent. Minimum of three days in the office with two days at home (with the stipulation that if the need arises, I have to go in on one of my scheduled telecommute days.)

With the way gas prices are now, I'm grateful that I'm not having to make a 60-mile round-trip five days a week in a vehicle that gets, at best, 17 mpg.

Between gas and no payroll tax, I saved a lot of money when I was working from home 95 percent of the time with only an occasional trip to the office to pick up mail or if something else came up.

How did payroll tax come into play with working remotely? 

Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 09:19:08 PM
Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

Wilmington, Delaware, where I live, says if you're telecommuting into Wilmington you still have to pay wage tax.  My wife and I don't work in Wilmington, but we have to pay it because we live there.

Quote from: elsmere241 on March 13, 2022, 10:23:55 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 09:19:08 PM
Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

Wilmington, Delaware, where I live, says if you're telecommuting into Wilmington you still have to pay wage tax.  My wife and I don't work in Wilmington, but we have to pay it because we live there.

That is an interesting situation. Many global companies have disperse set of locations and network access points. While we don't have this tax, I wonder how that would work out for my wife who often had to VPN into Singapore access point - as US locations were overloaded daytime during early covid - to access servers at company headquarters in California to join a meeting which - during in-person days - is held is a conference room at a local facility in upstate NY.  Who would have most rights for telecommuter tax?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 09:19:08 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 08:53:10 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2022, 05:10:39 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Semi-permanent. Minimum of three days in the office with two days at home (with the stipulation that if the need arises, I have to go in on one of my scheduled telecommute days.)

With the way gas prices are now, I'm grateful that I'm not having to make a 60-mile round-trip five days a week in a vehicle that gets, at best, 17 mpg.

Between gas and no payroll tax, I saved a lot of money when I was working from home 95 percent of the time with only an occasional trip to the office to pick up mail or if something else came up.

How did payroll tax come into play with working remotely? 

Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

This. Both the City of Jackson and Breathitt County levy payroll taxes. Lee County does not. We fill out forms indicating where we are assigned to work and what percentage of time we spend in each jurisdiction. When I was only going in infrequently, I indicated that 95 percent of my time was spent in Lee County and 5 percent was spent in Jackson/Breathitt County. This amounted to a de facto 3 percent raise for the time our office was closed.

Now it's 60/40, which means I'm only paying the 3 percent occupational tax three days a week.

How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 11, 2022, 03:14:21 PM
How many people here are permanently remote? ::raises hand::

Permanently remote since AUGUST 31, 2018.  :love:
I have been fully online at my alma mater, NC Cyber Academy, from September 10, 2018 (during Hurricane Florence) to May 29, 2020.
Since then, I've been at Wake Tech since September 15, 2020, AND I LOVE IT!  :love:

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 02:47:24 PM
How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

^This.  NYC and Yonkers are they nutty ones.  Everywhere else in NY, nope.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 03:53:47 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 02:47:24 PM
How odd, the only place I've lived where I've had to pay a municipality tax was NYC.

^This.  NYC and Yonkers are they nutty ones.  Everywhere else in NY, nope.

I can se some logic in Albany flirting with idea of more funding from commuters.
But the way city government works, that would be yet another taxation without representation.

Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2022, 10:17:12 AM

Quote from: elsmere241 on March 13, 2022, 10:23:55 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 09:19:08 PM
Many municipalities - especially cities - have a payroll tax if you're working in that jurisdiction.  If you're not physically working in that jurisdiction, you don't need to pay that jurisdiction's payroll tax.

Wilmington, Delaware, where I live, says if you're telecommuting into Wilmington you still have to pay wage tax.  My wife and I don't work in Wilmington, but we have to pay it because we live there.

That is an interesting situation. Many global companies have disperse set of locations and network access points. While we don't have this tax, I wonder how that would work out for my wife who often had to VPN into Singapore access point - as US locations were overloaded daytime during early covid - to access servers at company headquarters in California to join a meeting which - during in-person days - is held is a conference room at a local facility in upstate NY.  Who would have most rights for telecommuter tax?

My inclination would be to pay nobody that doesn't have any actual jurisdiction to send a cop to my house.

I worked for Chrysler in Highland Park. Michigan allows cities to charge income tax to non-residents (at a lower rate than residents) if the city where they live does not have an income tax.

One year we had some off-site training. When filling out the silly Highland Park tax forms, it allowed you to not pay taxes on the days you were off-site. And the rules as written included vacation as off-site.'

I currently work from home, and will stay doing so for as long as they allow it. Even though my work location is the shortest distance from home in my entire working life.

Those who normally work at our Detroit location (not me) don't have to pay non-resident income tax as long as they are working from home.

Perhaps some of you saw this article from Fortune:

No, you aren't automatically saving money by working from home. Here's how much it's costing you

QuoteLunch-flation. Soaring gas prices. Updating your work wardrobe. It's no wonder many U.S. workers are resisting employer demands to head back to the office full-time.

Despite many companies setting April return-to-office deadlines, for the past month, U.S. office occupancy has held steady at roughly 43%, according to Kastle's Back to Work Barometer that takes into account rates in 10 major cities. Many employees are pushing back against heading into the office not because of rising COVID caseloads, but arguing that their commutes are too expensive. In fact, a recent report from Deloitte found nearly 40% of millennials and a third of Gen Zers report that remote work has helped them save money.

But is working from home really a savings game-changer for most workers?

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2o1)

Or this response opinion article such as this one from Vox:

Why the return to the office isn't working
"I don't gain anything besides a commute."

QuoteAndres is back to the office three days a week, and like many knowledge workers, he's not happy about it. He says that while he and the other executive assistants at his Boston law firm have been forced back, the attorneys haven't been following the rules. That's partly because the rules don't quite make sense, and people in all types of jobs are only coming in because they have to, not because there's a good reason to go in.

"People have adapted to remote work, and truthfully, the firm has done a tremendous job at adapting in the pandemic,"  said Andres, who would prefer going in two days, as long as others were actually there. "But I think it's more the returning to work that they're struggling on."  He, like a number of other office workers, spoke with Recode anonymously to avoid getting in trouble with his employer.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2o2)

First off, let me state that every person's situation is unique, and not all jobs lend themselves to working from home. While I'm grateful to be back in the office, especially to build up the separation between work and home, I'm also within walking distance having intentionally purchased a home across the street from where I work. My employer has made it optional to come into the office at this time, and the message to the team I manage is "if you have to drive into work, might as well work from home." Surprisingly, it it I and maybe two other team leads who are in the office on Mondays and Fridays.

Part of the challenge I have with the Fortune article is that they focus too much on the dollars and cents and gloss over the non-monetary costs such as time. There is something to be said about waking up at 6:45 AM, making breakfast, feeding the cat, and being at one's desk at 7:00 AM and not having to deal with a drive to work and the corresponding wear-and-tear on the vehicle and yourself dealing with the stress of commute traffic and perhaps child care needs. Perhaps it's also the fact that some of us like focusing on the task to be completed, and dislike not being interrupted by a co-worker passing by.

However, I also think that some of the push by the employers to get people back into the office is because they have long-term leases on office spaces. Those leases are hard to break, so the employer is effectively payng to light up and cool empty office space. The bean counters are not liking that at all, especially with the companies also partially reimbursing for the Internet connectivity and the costs of maintaining secure VPNs to the office. I wonder if that played a factor in some of Elon micro-manager Elon Musk's recent "Return to Office or pretend to work elsewhere" comments (https://markholtz.info/2o4).

The Forbes article is just a bullhorn for Boomer-aged office-attendance-obsessed management.  The only cost increase in working from home mentioned is average utility bills, while it dismisses personal reports that people are saving money.  I put a lot more stock in the latter, since utility costs vary widely state-to-state.  Average may not be the greatest summary statistic in that case.  So, despite Forbes bringing up commute costs, the overall argument comes across as pretty flimsy to me, especially as someone who rents (all utilities paid with only a minor increase in annual rent), owns a single car and walks to work.

Quote from: ZLoth on June 14, 2022, 05:54:27 AM
However, I also think that some of the push by the employers to get people back into the office is because they have long-term leases on office spaces. Those leases are hard to break, so the employer is effectively payng to light up and cool empty office space. The bean counters are not liking that at all, especially with the companies also partially reimbursing for the Internet connectivity and the costs of maintaining secure VPNs to the office.

While I can believe that being the case for some companies, I think there are more that are drooling over the prospect of the savings from reduced real estate needs.

My company did an acquisition during the pandemic.   In places where both our company and the acquired company had offices, we essentially closed one set of offices right after the acquisition closed, because with WFH/hybrid work expected to be the norm, we knew we wouldn't need as much space.

I think the main reason we haven't downsized our office space more is the combination of leases not yet being up for renewal, and uncertainty for exactly how often people will be in the office.   When I made my first trip into the office a few weeks ago, one of the days there were only three of us on the floor of our downtown office tower.

I do, however, wonder if some companies are going to face long-term challenges with talent development in a WFH world.   A lot of my early career education came from simply being exposed to other people doing different work.  You hear what they do from nearby cubes, or while walking around the office, and you learn a few things.   Or random encounters in the office sometimes led to interesting new work or unexpected solutions to problems.   While I do prefer working from home, those are things I miss from my days as an office-dwelling cube-rat.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on June 14, 2022, 08:19:02 AM
I do, however, wonder if some companies are going to face long-term challenges with talent development in a WFH world.   A lot of my early career education came from simply being exposed to other people doing different work.  You hear what they do from nearby cubes, or while walking around the office, and you learn a few things.   Or random encounters in the office sometimes led to interesting new work or unexpected solutions to problems.   While I do prefer working from home, those are things I miss from my days as an office-dwelling cube-rat.

A very good point.
On the same page, social interaction allows finding efficient ways to  make things go through. Depends on office organization and work climate, of course

With the current gas prices, I'd love it if telecommuting more than two days a week became an option.

I haven't really noticed an uptick in my utility bills (water and electricity) working from home. Plus, there's a definite advantage to sleeping until 7:45 to go on the clock at 8 a.m. instead of having to get up, shower, and drive 45 minutes/30 miles to be at the desk.

There are home pressures when you're not in the office -- "Honey, help me with this for a minute" -- but the nuisance factor of that vs. gas at $4.799 a gallon and each day's commute currently costing $16 tilts heavily toward staying home.

Interestingly enough, I was told that while our office was closed and everyone was working from home unless they absolutely needed to come in, electricity consumption decreased greatly but the water use remained the same. It was posited that the water company was estimating usage instead of actually reading meters.

While we were on full-time telecommuting status, I was not required to give an accounting of my daily work activities. I'm told that agency-wide, some supervisors did require it while others didn't. When we went to the current schedule (three days in the office, two at home,) a daily status report of accomplishments became required. I don't know how strictly that's enforced, but I email my boss every afternoon. Of course much of my work is available for public consumption so it's easy to see what I'm doing.

I had to stay home for personal reasons and not go in last Thursday, one of my scheduled in-office days, but I still produced some work product. The mechanism doesn't exist for me to charge time for working from home during regular hours when I'm supposed to be in the office the way it does if I log time after hours or on the weekend.

How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 03:03:53 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For me specifically, my office is in my basement and gets pretty cold in the winter. I run a space heater near me that wouldn't be on if I were in an office, and this is irrespective of my wife being home or not.

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 03:03:53 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:31:24 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 03:03:53 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

Sure, but you were responding to a post in which I specifically stated "My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not."

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 03:33:37 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:31:24 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 03:03:53 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 03:02:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 14, 2022, 01:37:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 14, 2022, 01:25:04 PM
How would working from home increase my utility bills?  My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not.

I mean, marginally with you using the bathroom and drinking water at home your water bill could go up. And using a computer at home instead of the office might would raise the power bill. Lastly, you might have higher a/c if you use a room that normally runs hot for your office.

AC and heat.
Turning off / weakening temperature control when nobody is home is definitely a way some people are doing it.

But there's always someone home.

For you  maybe. For some other people home is empty during daytime hours (as of pre-covid) with kids at school and adults at work.
Even with fewer people,  going from full house to a single room AC is definitely possible. Depends on how much you value comfort over money.

Sure, but you were responding to a post in which I specifically stated "My wife and three kids are still home, even if I'm not."

Well, I read it as "they are still on a FWH/school from home schedule".
I think overall we do understand each other. Something true for 80% of population would still be wrong for 1 out of 5 people!   

Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2022, 04:26:33 PM
Well, I read it as "they are still on a FWH/school from home schedule".

Oh, I see why.  I meant "still = regardless" and you understood "still = up to the present time".

(My wife works from home and my children are home-schooled.)

From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

QuoteAs part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/22/amazon-employees-are-quitting-after-they-were-told-to-relocate-states.html)

Quote from: ZLoth on August 23, 2023, 09:17:14 AM
From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

QuoteAs part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/22/amazon-employees-are-quitting-after-they-were-told-to-relocate-states.html)

So, the decision every other employee who was part of a job relocation has had to experience since the beginning of eternity.

At least these people have 4 options. Most only have 1.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 23, 2023, 09:26:55 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on August 23, 2023, 09:17:14 AM
From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

QuoteAs part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/22/amazon-employees-are-quitting-after-they-were-told-to-relocate-states.html)

So, the decision every other employee who was part of a job relocation has had to experience since the beginning of eternity.

At least these people have 4 options. Most only have 1.

Eh, I'd argue that it's different. For traditional office jobs, you knew where you'd be working when you took the job, and the only way something would change would be something pretty drastic, like a company getting purchased or something along those lines. In these cases, nothing is changing with the business. It still exists where it exists.

I think some of the drive now to return to the office is the bean counters are griping about the long term office leases only to be air condition empty desks, and it is ideal to actually have occupied desks.

Personally, I prefer having the barrier between the work environment and the home environment with the option of WFH occasionally. I specifically choose the neighborhood I lived in when I was job relocated because it had high-speed internet and was within walking distance of my workplace. It was Covid which forced me to a WFH situation, and then an adult caregiver role. But, for other folks, they prefer the lack of distractions and the short commute from bedroom to home office, plus not having to deal with the rush hour traffic.

Quote from: ZLoth on August 23, 2023, 11:46:18 AM
I think some of the drive now to return to the office is the bean counters are griping about the long term office leases only to be air condition empty desks, and it is ideal to actually have occupied desks.

Personally, I prefer having the barrier between the work environment and the home environment with the option of WFH occasionally. I specifically choose the neighborhood I lived in when I was job relocated because it had high-speed internet and was within walking distance of my workplace. It was Covid which forced me to a WFH situation, and then an adult caregiver role. But, for other folks, they prefer the lack of distractions and the short commute from bedroom to home office, plus not having to deal with the rush hour traffic.

And then, of course, you have the blue collar crowd who never had the 'work from home' option.  If I were a white-collar guy, I would definitely prefer going to the office, too, for no other reason than for the varied scenery and interaction with cohorts.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on August 23, 2023, 01:08:41 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on August 23, 2023, 11:46:18 AM
I think some of the drive now to return to the office is the bean counters are griping about the long term office leases only to be air condition empty desks, and it is ideal to actually have occupied desks.

Personally, I prefer having the barrier between the work environment and the home environment with the option of WFH occasionally. I specifically choose the neighborhood I lived in when I was job relocated because it had high-speed internet and was within walking distance of my workplace. It was Covid which forced me to a WFH situation, and then an adult caregiver role. But, for other folks, they prefer the lack of distractions and the short commute from bedroom to home office, plus not having to deal with the rush hour traffic.

And then, of course, you have the blue collar crowd who never had the 'work from home' option.  If I were a white-collar guy, I would definitely prefer going to the office, too, for no other reason than for the varied scenery and interaction with cohorts.

Mike

To each their own. Other than having to start buying gas again, and having to get up earlier three days out of the week to make the trek back to the office, the thing I liked least about it was having to deal with others. I like my solitude.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2023, 09:50:06 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 23, 2023, 09:26:55 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on August 23, 2023, 09:17:14 AM
From CNBC (courtesy bing101):

Amazon is seeing some employees quit instead of moving to a new state as part of relocation mandate

QuoteAs part of Amazon's aggressive effort to get employees back to the office, the company is going a step further and demanding that some staffers move to a central hub to be with their team. Those who are unwilling or unable to comply are being forced to find work elsewhere, and some are choosing to quit, CNBC has learned.

Several employees spoke to CNBC about the new relocation requirement. An employee in Texas, who was hired in a remote role, said managers assured his team in March that nothing would change despite the return-to-office (RTO) mandate issued the prior month. But in July, the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia, according to internal correspondence.

Under the guidelines, remote workers are expected to have completed their move to a main hub by the first half of 2024, the document states. The employee, who doesn't live near any of the designated cities, chose to leave Amazon after securing another position, in part due to uncertainty about future job security and the potential of higher living costs associated with the relocation with no guarantee of an increase in salary.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/22/amazon-employees-are-quitting-after-they-were-told-to-relocate-states.html)

So, the decision every other employee who was part of a job relocation has had to experience since the beginning of eternity.

At least these people have 4 options. Most only have 1.

Eh, I'd argue that it's different. For traditional office jobs, you knew where you'd be working when you took the job, and the only way something would change would be something pretty drastic, like a company getting purchased or something along those lines. In these cases, nothing is changing with the business. It still exists where it exists.

Businesses have often moved for tax savjngs purposes, more modern facilities, etc.  In fact, per this article, Corporate relocations are at their highest rate since 2017: https://blog.hireahelper.com/2023-study-corporate-relocation-at-highest-rate-since-2017/

As for the article...if someone took on a role that was always supposed to be remote, I can see their anger. But if there was ever any mention in the job posting or interview that it could become permanent, then the company simply decided to exercise that option.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 23, 2023, 01:36:58 PMBusinesses have often moved for tax savings purposes, more modern facilities, etc.  In fact, per this article, corporate relocations are at their highest rate since 2017: https://blog.hireahelper.com/2023-study-corporate-relocation-at-highest-rate-since-2017/

As for the article...if someone took on a role that was always supposed to be remote, I can see their anger. But if there was ever any mention in the job posting or interview that it could become permanent, then the company simply decided to exercise that option.

Ultimately, it comes down to the golden rule... he who has the gold rules. The question becomes how much they want to risk their talent leaving who values working from home over a work commute.

Last I checked the "golden rule"  was something much different.

If downtowns want to become what they were in 2019 - whatever that was - city and business leaders are going to have to work hard to make former full-time office workers want to come to work, be it better transit, more office amenities, better quality of life, etc. 

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 24, 2023, 01:50:26 PM
If downtowns want to become what they were in 2019 - whatever that was - city and business leaders are going to have to work hard to make former full-time office workers want to come to work, be it better transit, more office amenities, better quality of life, etc.

Huh.  That's an interesting proposition.  I'm not sure all the fancy cafes in the world could entice telecommuters back to the office.

Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2023, 03:11:00 PM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 24, 2023, 01:50:26 PM
If downtowns want to become what they were in 2019 - whatever that was - city and business leaders are going to have to work hard to make former full-time office workers want to come to work, be it better transit, more office amenities, better quality of life, etc.

Huh.  That's an interesting proposition.  I'm not sure all the fancy cafes in the world could entice telecommuters back to the office.

Turning fancy offices into apartments, though.... May or may not work after all.
Downtown as a destination? That's a more interesting question

In the Netherlands some employers provide compensation if you work from home. For me it is € 3 / $ 3.25 per day.

This is supposed to cover the cost of utilities like electricity, heating, internet, etc. A desk, chair, iPhone and computer is provided by the employer.

I keep track of my days in the office and the days worked remotely through an app.