Wisconsin notes

[Great Lakes Roads]

Public hearings for I-41 expansion between Appleton and Green Bay next week should reveal some answers about a sooner start date for construction:
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/i41/default.aspx

The Environmental Document (purpose of the meetings next week) is on the website: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/i41/enviro.aspx

The document lists as early as 2024 for a construction start date (project will take multiple years).  It also has layouts of the design (6 lanes, a lot of DDI's in Appleton, new systems interchange with flyovers at WIS 441, and new interchange for the south bridge connection).

Kudos to the city of Appleton and Outagamie County for going with the DDIs and not go with the clusterf**k three-lane roundabouts for those busy interchanges!

[SEWIGuy]

I have been told that WIDOT will no longer do three lane roundabouts.  Too many issues.

[JoePCool14]

I have been told that WIDOT will no longer do three lane roundabouts.  Too many issues.

Yeah, too many issues. Like how seemingly American drivers simply cannot handle roundabouts well.

[dvferyance]

Traffic counts on that stretch of I-90/94 are about the same as I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee.  That follows my experience.  I think I-94 expansion between Waukesha and the Dells makes sense long term, but it should start on I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee.

When you say "between Madison and Milwaukee", does that mean the average AADT between I-39/90/WI-30 and the Marquette Interchange (or something along those lines), or does it mean the average AADT on the four lane segment (between CTH-N at Cottage Grove and WI-16 at Waukesha)?

Regardless, it's important to note that I-90/94 between Portage and Tomah has significantly more truck traffic. Look at this map: <img src="https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/nat_freight_stats/docs/11factsfigures/images/fig3_9.jpg"

Trucks move slower, and therefore hold up traffic more. They're also much more important from an economic standpoint, which is an important factor in road projects. So a tie goes to the highway with more trucks IMO.

I don't think that I-94 needs six lanes for the entire distance between Madison and Milwaukee, but it does need six lanes from the current lane drop at WI-16 out to the about WI-83 exit in Delafield, which is where metropolitan Milwaukee traffic picks up.

The lane drop is at CR-SS about 3 miles west of 16. I would six lane it out to WI-67 in Oconomowoc.

[hobsini2]

Public hearings for I-41 expansion between Appleton and Green Bay next week should reveal some answers about a sooner start date for construction:
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/i41/default.aspx

The Environmental Document (purpose of the meetings next week) is on the website: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/i41/enviro.aspx

The document lists as early as 2024 for a construction start date (project will take multiple years).  It also has layouts of the design (6 lanes, a lot of DDI's in Appleton, new systems interchange with flyovers at WIS 441, and new interchange for the south bridge connection).

On Page 24 of the Preferred Alternate Maps 1, is that the new Weigh Station? Nice if it is.

[skluth]

No article links handy, but I have been hearing some local chatter about the State of Wisconsin possibly having moved up the proposed six lane upgrades to I-41 from WI 15/Northland Ave at Appleton to Scheuring Rd in De Pere by three years, from the 2025-2029 time frame to 2022-2026.  Is anyone able to confirm this?

Mike

Would hope this is true, would help everyone heading south or north on that stretch on 41 to do that sooner than later.  I'd assume the creation of the Southridge road exit would be moved up too(just south of Schuering Road exit)

Has WISDOT confirmed that they're going to build an exit at Southridge Road when they expand that stretch of I-41? It doesn't seem needed to me, as northbound traffic can use Lawrence Drive while southbound can use Scheuring.

Southridge Rd would have a bridge over the Fox River while the previous 2 roads don't.

A Fox River bridge between De Pere and Wrightstown has been a desire since I was a kid and I'm 65. I'll believe this bridge when it's funded and built. Right now there's only an agreement on where it will be built, but I wouldn't count on it quite yet.

[skluth]

I have been told that WIDOT will no longer do three lane roundabouts.  Too many issues.

Yeah, too many issues. Like how seemingly American drivers simply cannot handle roundabouts well.

Three lanes are difficult even when you like roundabouts. I've dealt with a couple on the west side of Green Bay. I hate them. They're especially hard to navigate at night when it's raining, even with little other traffic around. One or two lanes in a roundabout are fine. Three lanes, as SEWIGuy stated, make too many issues.

[SEWIGuy]

I have been told that WIDOT will no longer do three lane roundabouts.  Too many issues.

Yeah, too many issues. Like how seemingly American drivers simply cannot handle roundabouts well.

Three lanes are difficult even when you like roundabouts. I've dealt with a couple on the west side of Green Bay. I hate them. They're especially hard to navigate at night when it's raining, even with little other traffic around. One or two lanes in a roundabout are fine. Three lanes, as SEWIGuy stated, make too many issues.

I know exactly the ones you are talking about.  Too many pavement markings and too many drivers that don't look like they know what they're doing are also problems.

[The Ghostbuster]

I'd like to see Interstate 94 be at least six lanes between Madison and Milwaukee. My mother has asked me when they might do it. I told her she may have to wait a long time.

[I-39]

I'd like to see Interstate 94 be at least six lanes between Madison and Milwaukee. My mother has asked me when they might do it. I told her she may have to wait a long time.

Are there even any active studies on this segment?

[tchafe1978]

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FWIS441I41News%2Fposts%2F4791065880920872&show_text=true&width=500" width="500" height="685" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share"></iframe>

The Facebook page for the I-41/WI-441 interchange project has been reactivated as a page for the new I-41 study and project between Appleton and DePere.

[SSOWorld]

Why in God's name do they think that the North end 441 interchange prevailing traffic is westbound?  They have 2 lanes going that way (now a trumpet with the loop coming from EB to southbound

[hobsini2]

Why in God's name do they think that the North end 441 interchange prevailing traffic is westbound?  They have 2 lanes going that way (now a trumpet with the loop coming from EB to southbound

The only reason I can think of why they are going to do it that way is maybe Wis 47 will be routed along the freeways to bypass Downtown Appleton. Otherwise, I completely agree.

[mgk920]

Why in God's name do they think that the North end 441 interchange prevailing traffic is westbound?  They have 2 lanes going that way (now a trumpet with the loop coming from EB to southbound

The only reason I can think of why they are going to do it that way is maybe Wis 47 will be routed along the freeways to bypass Downtown Appleton. Otherwise, I completely agree.

Speaking as a local, that is the way that about 2/3rds of the WI 441 traffic goes at that interchange.  Also, a significant portion of that traffic is coming from or going to Ballard Rd (Outagamie County 'E') to the north.  Yes, IMHO, provision to extend the WI 441 freeway to the north on a new ROW should have been made when it was first being planned during the 1960s and 1970s (this was shown on some 'popular' local maps that were published during that time frame).  The Calumet and Outagamie County part of the WI 441 freeway first opened in late 1993.



Mike

[SEWIGuy]

Why in God's name do they think that the North end 441 interchange prevailing traffic is westbound?  They have 2 lanes going that way (now a trumpet with the loop coming from EB to southbound

The only reason I can think of why they are going to do it that way is maybe Wis 47 will be routed along the freeways to bypass Downtown Appleton. Otherwise, I completely agree.

Speaking as a local, that is the way that about 2/3rds of the WI 441 traffic goes at that interchange.  Also, a significant portion of that traffic is coming from or going to Ballard Rd (Outagamie County 'E') to the north.  Yes, IMHO, provision to extend the WI 441 freeway to the north on a new ROW should have been made when it was first being planned during the 1960s and 1970s (this was shown on some 'popular' local maps that were published during that time frame).  The Calumet and Outagamie County part of the WI 441 freeway first opened in late 1993.



Mike

The traffic going westbound makes perfect sense to me.  WI-441 is used much more for local traffic to get around the Appleton area than as some sort of bypass. 

[tchafe1978]

Why does WisDOT struggle at building smooth approaches to bridges? So many approaches to bridges along interstates and expressways first send you through a dip, and then when you hit the bridge itself, you're sent flying like you're in the Dukes of Hazzard. Even newly or recently built bridges are like this. I see WisDOT finally had some asphalt put down on many of the bridge approaches on US 151 around and near Mineral Point, and the difference is like night and day. Other stretches of US 151 between Madison and Fond du Lac are much the same way, but haven't been smoothed out yet.

[SSOWorld]

Why does WisDOT struggle at building smooth approaches to bridges? So many approaches to bridges along interstates and expressways first send you through a dip, and then when you hit the bridge itself, you're sent flying like you're in the Dukes of Hazzard. Even newly or recently built bridges are like this. I see WisDOT finally had some asphalt put down on many of the bridge approaches on US 151 around and near Mineral Point, and the difference is like night and day. Other stretches of US 151 between Madison and Fond du Lac are much the same way, but haven't been smoothed out yet.

That's been a common problem everywhere, not just in WI.  I've seen bridges in Iowa that have that problem.

[JoePCool14]

Why does WisDOT struggle at building smooth approaches to bridges? So many approaches to bridges along interstates and expressways first send you through a dip, and then when you hit the bridge itself, you're sent flying like you're in the Dukes of Hazzard. Even newly or recently built bridges are like this. I see WisDOT finally had some asphalt put down on many of the bridge approaches on US 151 around and near Mineral Point, and the difference is like night and day. Other stretches of US 151 between Madison and Fond du Lac are much the same way, but haven't been smoothed out yet.

I just drove US-151 from Platteville to the Beltline today and I saw the bridges with the replaced asphalt. Those ones were really great. Hopefully they can expand that to more places.

I otherwise feel like most WisDOT bridge approaches are alright. They are lots of joints and you're right that the up-and-down is odd, but they're still alright. If you want to see bad approaches (combined with poor bridge surfaces), drive down IL-53 north of I-90 in Illinois.

[SEWIGuy]

Some details on I-41 expansion between Green Bay and Appleton. Construction slated to start in 2025.

https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/2021/07/26/appleton-de-pere-interstate-41-expansion-plan-includes-roundabouts/8045827002/

[triplemultiplex]

When one builds a new bridge, sometimes the earthwork and the bridge settle at different rates over time leading to that little ramp effect.  You'll see that all over the place, especially (but not exclusively) in places where the ground freezes.

[thspfc]

Apparently US-14 got decommissioned because from a reasonable distance, Google Maps only shows it between the Beltline and CTH-MM as "US-18 Alternate". Google is hilarious sometimes.

[peterj920]

Sign replacements are happening on the Beltline in Madison and clearview will be a thing of the past on WISDOT roads. Rimrock Rd also has County MM and Monona Dr has County BB and I didn't know it had a county road designation.

[SEWIGuy]

Sign replacements are happening on the Beltline in Madison and clearview will be a thing of the past on WISDOT roads. Rimrock Rd also has County MM and Monona Dr has County BB and I didn't know it had a county road designation.

I knew Rimrock was always MM, but I don't recall seeing a BB reassurance marker on Monona Drive for decades.  If you look back in the Historic Aerials topo maps, the BB designation is right there on the 1980 map where it intersects Broadway, but not on the 1984 map.  I guess it never went away.

[The Ghostbuster]

I knew Rimrock Rd. was CTH-MM and Monona Drive (and Cottage Grove Rd.) was CTH-BB. John Nolen Drive (Beltline to Olin Ave.) and a short portion of Olin Ave. was (or still is) CTH-MC. I remember seeing an End MC sign a short distance west of the Olin/John Nolen intersection, and a regular MC sign at nearly the same place in the opposite direction (don't recall any MC signs on John Nolen). Of course, this was 30-some years ago, when I was a child. Those two signs are long gone, and I'm not sure if CTH-MC still exists or not.

[peterj920]

I knew Rimrock Rd. was CTH-MM and Monona Drive (and Cottage Grove Rd.) was CTH-BB. John Nolen Drive (Beltline to Olin Ave.) and a short portion of Olin Ave. was (or still is) CTH-MC. I remember seeing an End MC sign a short distance west of the Olin/John Nolen intersection, and a regular MC sign at nearly the same place in the opposite direction (don't recall any MC signs on John Nolen). Of course, this was 30-some years ago, when I was a child. Those two signs are long gone, and I'm not sure if CTH-MC still exists or not.

MC still shows up on the Dane County map. No sign for it on The Beltline. When there's snowfall you can tell when John Nolan Dr switches from Dane County to City of Madison. Dane County's portion will be clear while the City of Madison stretch will be snow covered. Olin Ave is where the difference happens.