Do we have too many counties?

[Pink Jazz]

Arizona actually has a small number of counties for such a large state.  Arizona's laws concerning county secession are some of the strictest in the nation.  I know former Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce once tried to ease the laws twice to allow the East Valley of the Phoenix metro area to secede from Maricopa County.  The original proposal in the early 1990s included the cities and towns of Mesa (which would have been the county seat), Chandler, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Tempe, and Guadalupe, while a second attempt in the early 2000s did not include Tempe nor Guadalupe.

[bandit957]

It's hard to imagine Mesa being the seat of anything, despite its size.

[empirestate]

Apparently Arizona's laws came as the result of one of America's youngest counties, La Paz, being created before it was a viable entity. Were the previous laws exceptionally lax, or just average?


iPhone

[Pete from Boston]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

[cpzilliacus]

Counties in NJ were also helpful in placing Garden State Parkway toll booths.

Helpful as in placing them to allow GSP drivers on short trips to avoid having to pay (at least at the mainline plazas)?

It is my understanding that the Connecticut Turnpike toll barriers were sited to allow as many local trips as possible to be made free of charge (unlike the GSP, I do not recall any ramp tolls on the Connecticut Pike).

[Rothman]

Counties in NJ were also helpful in placing Garden State Parkway toll booths.

Helpful as in placing them to allow GSP drivers on short trips to avoid having to pay (at least at the mainline plazas)?

Nah, just in terms of locating the barriers.  With only a couple of exceptions, it's basically one per county:

Cape May Toll Plaza: Cape May County
Great Egg Toll Plaza: Atlantic County
New Gretna Toll Plaza: Burlington County
Barnegat Toll Plaza: Ocean County
Toms River Toll Plaza: Ocean County
Asbury Park Toll Plaza: Monmouth County
Raritan Toll Plaza: Middlesex County
Union Toll Plaza: Union County
Essex Toll Plaza: Essex County
Bergen Toll Plaza: Bergen County
Pascack Valley Toll Plaza: Bergen County

[hbelkins]

Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.

I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.

[jwolfer]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

[Pete from Boston]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

Bergen has had a county vocational magnet school for decades, and now has several, because no municipality is large enough to have one on its own.  I wouldn't call this preparation for county government.  As has been repeated here, New Jersey's populace clings stubbornly and proudly to municipal government.

[jwolfer]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

Bergen has had a county vocational magnet school for decades, and now has several, because no municipality is large enough to have one on its own.  I wouldn't call this preparation for county government.  As has been repeated here, New Jersey's populace clings stubbornly and proudly to municipal government.

There are County school boards already. New Jersey municipalities will not go easily

[Duke87]

It's a bit odd to me to look at this from a practical perspective - I have never lived in a country that has a county government, and thus have no firsthand experience with being represented by or being provided regular service by any such thing.

Looking at a map it is rather apparent that Georgia and Kentucky both have too many counties, though. Tennessee and Indiana could probably stand to combine some as well.

Southern California, meanwhile, has too way few counties. The LA Metro parts of San Bernardino and Riverside counties need to be split from the rest, and you could easily make four counties out of Los Angeles county itself. For San Diego county I'd carve the city and its inner suburbs out from the rest.

Also, Virginia - cut the independent city crap and make them all officially part of a county.

[bandit957]

Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.

Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.

[SP Cook]

Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.

I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.

WV and eastern KY, along with southwestern VA, all suffer from the same issue.  Which is the counties were drawn up by people who had never been there, working from in accurate maps and with a lack of appreciation for the topography.   Which got compounded when coal was discovered and rural mountainous countiess that otherwise would have supported a few thousand hard scrabble farmers and lumberjacks each became populated with 10s of 1000s of people.

In WV the ones that stand out are Mingo, which has two major mountains without good roads that cut the county into thirds, with long drives between the parts; Kanawha, which has a southeastern rural coal producting part that is culturally and politically totally out-of-touch with the urban and suburban rest of the county; and Fayette, which, like Mingo, is made up of areas seperated by large mountains that cannot easily interact.  While not too big, Lincoln is also a poorly drawn county, with the various parts much more tuned into the neighboring areas than one another. 

[triplemultiplex]

Prairie states could use some county consolidation.  They have a lot of tiny counties with very, very few people.
Yet other western states could probably break up their enormous counties now that lots of people have moved there.

[hbelkins]

Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.

Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county. I would suggest combining the three into two, but the Licking River is a natural boundary.

In WV the ones that stand out are Mingo, which has two major mountains without good roads that cut the county into thirds, with long drives between the parts; Kanawha, which has a southeastern rural coal producting part that is culturally and politically totally out-of-touch with the urban and suburban rest of the county; and Fayette, which, like Mingo, is made up of areas seperated by large mountains that cannot easily interact.  While not too big, Lincoln is also a poorly drawn county, with the various parts much more tuned into the neighboring areas than one another. 

I always thought Wayne and Cabell counties were poorly drawn-up. Wayne is narrow and tall and includes some of the metro Huntington area, but not the city itself.

[jeffandnicole]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc.  But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers.  There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.

[jwolfer]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc.  But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers.  There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.

It will take a long time and lots of political will

[Pete from Boston]

In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville)  the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Schools are already county wide in Florida.

Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions

In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out.  It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly

In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from.  I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such.  We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines.  In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.

Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.

Yes and no.  People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties.  But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.

Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.

It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.

There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc.  But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers.  There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.

It will take a long time and lots of political will

Only the long time is available at present.

There's a collective mental disconnect in New Jersey about the relation of microgovernment to high taxes.  Everyone rails against the latter, while few want to face how much of the cause lies in the former. Fewer still are willing to relinquish it.

Massively urbanized state clinging to a small-town-y fiction.

[bulldog1979]

There have been proposals over the years to merge Keweenaw County into Houghton County, Michigan. There is currently a proposal to rearrange some of the judgeships in the state, which if enacted as proposed could eventually mean the loss of Keweenaw County's district court judge or the consolidation of the probate courts for the two counties into a single probate district. Judicial circuits already cross county lines now, such that a murder trial out of Alger County had a change of venue to Schoolcraft County, and judge just transferred to his other courtroom at the other courthouse to continue hearing the case.

[tidecat]

Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.

I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.

The counties that are between 350-400 square miles seem to be the optimal size - ironically Jefferson and Shelby are about 1 square mile different in area, even though their populations differ by nearly 700,000.  IIRC Pike County is about twice the size in terms of area.

[bandit957]

Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.

Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county.

I don't want to be ruled by the criminals and crazies who run Boone County, which is what would happen.

[iBallasticwolf2]

Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.

Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county.

I don't want to be ruled by the criminals and crazies who run Boone County, which is what would happen.

That would be a very weird merge. . But what would we even call this new county? Boontell County?

[Pink Jazz]

Apparently Arizona's laws came as the result of one of America's youngest counties, La Paz, being created before it was a viable entity. Were the previous laws exceptionally lax, or just average?


iPhone

Not sure, considering how few counties were formed in the years prior.

[Avalanchez71]

There is a law on the books in Tennessee that the county line must be at least eleven miles from the courthouse in order to form a new county.  I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.  However, what they do not realize is that the county has a much different relationship with populace in the south and the west than it does the north.

[froggie]

Contrary to what Avalanchez may think, a lot of the discussion about consolidating counties in some northern states is coming from conservatives, not liberals.

But his point about the county having a different relationship in the south is valid, as south of the Mason-Dixon the county is the basic/lowest-level unit of governance whereas New England and New York have towns and most other states from New Jersey to the Dakotas have townships as the basic/lowest-level unit of government.