Here's a thread to discuss the principle of passing on the right. I've answered (1), and I'm sure opportunities will arise for me to answer (2) and (3) later on. For now, let it suffice that I'm anti-passing-on-the-right.
(1) How common is this in your area? Rochester, NY, has got to be the nationwide capital of Passing on the Right :pan:
(2) How prepared are you, personally, to pass on the right*, and does this vary based on lanes per direction?
(3) What would happen to traffic flow on freeways if no one passed on the right?
*On a free-flowing, multi-lane, limited access highway
1) New Jersey - Common, because of all the out-of-staters driving too slow in the left lane.
2) How prepared? Um, I move over and pass.
3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas .
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 08:39:04 AM
2) How prepared? Um, I move over and pass.
Perhaps "willing" would have been a better word choice. As in, do you move right immediately? or first attempt to get them to move over?
Quote
3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas.
...because...
You have to pass on the right due to left lane blockers. That is all there is to it.
I don't waste time trying to get them to move over. Car-to-car communication is pretty weak and probably thought to be more effective than it is.
The only time I'll pass on the right is if someone is in front of me going slower than the speed I want to drive and they are hogging the left lane. For example, I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane of I-75 and in front of me is a car going 70 mph which is the speed limit and I'll comment on that in a minute, I'll move over to the right to get around a slow moving vehicle in the left lane though and then get back in the left lane. When I'm in the left lane I'm passing everyone on the highway I'm not riding the same speed they are or just barely keeping up with their speed if traffic in the right lane is plentiful I'll remain in the left lane until I'm no longer passing vehicles in the other lanes. Now as far as driving 70 mph in the left lane, who are these people actually helping? The left lane is for passing not for traveling in and when they are moving the same speed as the traffic in the other lanes that vehicle doesn't belong in the left lane.
A couple of examples that happened to me this year so far, both on the same trip. I was traveling on WB I-69 between Flint and Lansing the speed limit is now 75 mph and I have my cruise set for 80 mph. I'm in the left lane passing and come up to these cars that just can't seem to move any faster than about 63 mph in the left lane, no semi truck in the left lane up ahead so I started tailgating the traffic to get them to get over and out of the left lane so I can pass. One driver got mad at me over that but I just flicked him back off and moved on.
My second example, I was traveling on EB I-94 between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek about 2-3 hours later. I'm doing 80 mph and a semi truck is in the right lane, a car purposely decides to drive the same speed the semi truck is driving in the left lane (there are only two lanes here to use). After about a mile of this I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle that was driving slow in the left lane.
My whole point is that these people don't own the road (neither do I). But it is totally inexcusable to do such a thing. Common sense just doesn't register with some people I don't get it, your on the damn road driving and not even trying to let traffic move around you. The incident on I-94 I had at least 10 cars behind me trying to pass this semi truck.
1. Common due to left lane hogs.
2. Rather prepared. A bit sick of the LLHs though.
3. Major congestion - would be worse than currently.
It's more common to pass people on the right in California in my experience in passing lane zones on mountain grades. It seems that most people ignore the signs that say "keep right except to pass."
Why would you be anti-passing on the right? You're only contributing to the congestion by failing to pass on the right, which is a perfectly legal move on multi-lane highways. It's only illegal (in some states) when you pass on the right *shoulder* to go around a left turning vehicle.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 10:03:42 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 08:39:04 AM
2) How prepared? Um, I move over and pass.
Perhaps "willing" would have been a better word choice. As in, do you move right immediately? or first attempt to get them to move over?
I move right when I notice I'll need to pass. There's no reason to pull up behind someone in the left lane just to sit there because I don't want to pass on the right. Now, I have tried in the past to sit there to 'encourage' them to move over, but it's more likely they're going to have no clue why you aren't simply passing on the right. There's a bit of bias with this statement, but vehicles from NY and PA do tend to think they absolutely own that left lane until they're ready to exit the highway. They will rather drive into a giant sinkhole rather than move out of the left lane.
Also, it's a gas mileage issue. If you slow up behind the left lane hog, then speed up to pass them, you're using more gas than if you just maintained a steady speed, noticed the slower vehicle ahead, and merged over.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 10:03:42 AM
Quote
3) They would be a congested hell even in the most rural of areas.
...because...
So let's say the speed limit is 70 mph. Normal travel speeds are 75 - 80. Slowpoke in the left lane is doing 55 mph, about 30% slower than the average speed of the roadway. It's pretty clear that if someone didn't pass the slowpoke, the entire highway would be doing 55 mph in a 70 zone, which will cause some obvious congestion issues.
I'll pass on the right more often than not when it's possible (in NJ), since that leaves the left lane open for those going faster than me, especially in 55 MPH zones on freeways where many are going faster. I also end up getting passed on the right a lot myself due to this where, after passing on the left, I find the right lane going faster than me forcing me to stay in the center lane, rather than cutting people off. But I tend to keep right in general. If that means I'm passing people in lanes to the left of me, I don't see a problem.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
After about a mile of this I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle that was driving slow in the left lane.
My whole point is that these people don't own the road (neither do I). But it is totally inexcusable to do such a thing.
Driving slow in the left lane is inexcusable, but driving out-of-lane to pass them is OK? Come on, I hate left lane squatters too, but to do that borders on "you should lose your license" material.
I pass on the right only if I am 100% certain that the car in the left lane has no good reason to be there, isn't planning to get over when they think it's safe to do so, and I can get fully around them before approaching another car - which usually means I'll give them a few seconds to get over before passing.
"Undertaking" is a necessary evil when left lane laws are unenforced, unobserved, or non-existent. In a perfect world (eg most of Europe), traffic would move to towards the shoulder after overtaking, so undertaking would never be necessary. But in North America, where many drivers seem to space out on the road and/or engage in some sort of distracting activity, it's gonna take a lot signs, new laws, and enforcement before I don't need to undertake anymore. I don't know if drivers are just unaware or stubborn, but both are issues.
With this in mind, I will wait a moment before going in for the undertake. A driver can't move right unless there's a gap, and there's not going to be a gap if every car that comes up on them immediately undertakes. This is a big problem when trucks are in the left lane (or the left most lane they are permitted in). Using one's indicators would help, but many don't seem to use them until they are actually changing lanes.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
Here's a thread to discuss the principle of passing on the right. I've answered (1), and I'm sure opportunities will arise for me to answer (2) and (3) later on. For now, let it suffice that I'm anti-passing-on-the-right.
(1) How common is this in your area? Rochester, NY, has got to be the nationwide capital of Passing on the Right :pan:
(2) How prepared are you, personally, to pass on the right*, and does this vary based on lanes per direction?
(3) What would happen to traffic flow on freeways if no one passed on the right?
*On a free-flowing, multi-lane, limited access highway
(1) It's not very common anymore on rural multi-lane highways that there's any
need to pass on the right, because most traffic keeps to the right. It's still quite common on rural two-lane highways that widen out every so often for passing opportunities; a lot of people assume they don't have to move over, even though the sign says "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS". And, in Wichita itself, everybody has some phobia about the right lane, such that they immediately move to the center lane after entering the highway–occasionally leaving the right lane wide open.
(2) I stay in the left lane long enough to give them a decent chance to notice me and move over. Failing that, I pass on the right. If driving at the
exact same darned speed as the next lane over.... well, I've been known to use the inside shoulder, which is risky.
(3) Everyone would be stuck in the left lane behind the slowest driver out there. Unless that guy got over, of course.
On 4 lane highways (2 lanes on my side), I will pretty quickly pass on the right side without hesitation.
I don't notice much of a difference between W NY and PA, where I do most of my driving.
However...on 6 lane or more highways (3 lanes on my side or more), there seem to be a lot of middle-lane hogs, and in those cases, I will rarely pass on the right; instead, I will wait and pass on the left. I find that most 6 lane highways I'm on, there isn't enough clear space, particularly with multiple exits, to have a clear pass on the right.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 12:35:58 PM
Why would you be anti-passing on the right? You're only contributing to the congestion by failing to pass on the right, which is a perfectly legal move on multi-lane highways.
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient, and most predictable, when slower traffic keeps right. The problem is when you get middle-lane campers, and volumes are too high for traffic to sustain a reasonable differential on the left. Now, if freeways were as efficient as European freeways, those middle-lane campers would be on the far right, and the people passing at a differential of 5 mph or so can use the middle lane. Then, voila!, there's a lane for people to pass those that would otherwise be hogging the left lane.
QuoteSo let's say the speed limit is 70 mph. Normal travel speeds are 75 - 80. Slowpoke in the left lane is doing 55 mph, about 30% slower than the average speed of the roadway. It's pretty clear that if someone didn't pass the slowpoke, the entire highway would be doing 55 mph in a 70 zone, which will cause some obvious congestion issues.
If you're going
under the speed limit on an otherwise free-flowing highway, you won't ever have a reason to be on the left, leading me to conclude that you moved left just be obtuse. In which case I will be the guy that sits in the right lane and flashes you until you get over*.
*And if you still don't get over, well then we have a real problem, which I'll assign consequences to as I see fit :-P (but no, I won't stay behind or next to you forever)
Quote from: jakeroot on May 15, 2018, 01:02:24 PM
With this in mind, I will wait a moment before going in for the undertake. A driver can't move right unless there's a gap, and there's not going to be a gap if every car that comes up on them immediately undertakes. This is a big problem when trucks are in the left lane (or the left most lane they are permitted in).
This. It's a question of which is the lesser of two evils: to give the slowest vehicle an opportunity to move right, or to maintain flow and pass on the right like everyone else. The latter isn't necessarily a
bad thing, but it ensures the problem will continue to exist - and two lanes of traffic flowing around the middle lane is definitely sub-optimal.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 15, 2018, 01:44:56 PM
However...on 6 lane or more highways (3 lanes on my side or more), there seem to be a lot of middle-lane hogs, and in those cases, I will rarely pass on the right; instead, I will wait and pass on the left. I find that most 6 lane highways I'm on, there isn't enough clear space, particularly with multiple exits, to have a clear pass on the right.
See, I'm just the opposite, being more willing to forgive/allow middle-lane camping than left-lane camping.
This section of I-490 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1121133,-77.506627,3a,75y,21.21h,94.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sayknPG_FNKCvBvBN81kKAw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DayknPG_FNKCvBvBN81kKAw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D74.10616%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) and this section of NY 104 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2137735,-77.5242807,3a,75y,235.51h,83.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSsUN16T7OO9HGt_Z76KERA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), in particular, have a lot of traffic passing right and keeping pace with those passing left.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?
You cut out the part of the quote that would have (partially) answered your own question. More predictable. And more consistent.
Further to that, slow-moving traffic entering and exiting is primarily on the right. Encouraging faster traffic to use that side of the road leads to a lot of unnecessary, and potentially unsafe, braking and dramatic speed changes. That is to say, there are less potential hazards on the left, less potential conflict points, and less potential for unplanned speed changes. All three are optimal for your fastest-moving traffic. Truckers also have their largest blind spots on their right, which speaks for itself..
As to why it's more efficient, I think it's obvious, but I'd probably make myself look like a fool by trying to explain it without a video. It's the best solution to allow everyone to maintain their preferred speed, with the least amount of conflict points and weaving possible.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?
I know you don't like this animation, but I'm posting it nonetheless.
Watch the red car.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fslowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=30047e2e5d94b2b5c76680b7f10395b47e88dfce)
St Louis has a bunch of left exits. Drivers will camp out in the left lane even if their exit is 4-5 miles down the road. Passing on the right isn't just commonplace here. It's a necessity.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
See, I'm just the opposite, being more willing to forgive/allow middle-lane camping than left-lane camping.
This section of I-490 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1121133,-77.506627,3a,75y,21.21h,94.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sayknPG_FNKCvBvBN81kKAw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DayknPG_FNKCvBvBN81kKAw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D74.10616%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) and this section of NY 104 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2137735,-77.5242807,3a,75y,235.51h,83.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSsUN16T7OO9HGt_Z76KERA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), in particular, have a lot of traffic passing right and keeping pace with those passing left.
That section of 490...there is a small window where you can get away with that before the merge from the E Rochester on-ramp closes off that option.
But that section of 104 Westbound after Bay Rd doesn't have another merge, but a split at 590, so it's a little more wide open and the right lane is more of an option.
And it's not that I'm more forgiving...but that on 6-lane sections, I find that the chances that the right lane is faster, for long enough to complete a pass, is rare. And the potential downsides...of getting stuck behind a slow right-lane traveler who has just merged on from, or slowing down to an exit, and also stuck next to the middle-lane camper...is greater.
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?
I know you don't like this animation, but I'm posting it nonetheless.
Watch the red car.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fslowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=30047e2e5d94b2b5c76680b7f10395b47e88dfce)
What I see is a car moving at probably speed limit, speed limit +20 and speed limit +40. Do I care about how efficient road for superspeeder is? Hell, no - if that car doesn't have red and white flashers, of course.
And at 5 mph speed differentials everything would be much less drastic.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:59:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
It's legal, but it's not recommended for a reason; it's safest, most efficient,
Can you elaborate on those two statements? What makes it more efficient and more safe?
You cut out the part of the quote that would have (partially) answered your own question. More predictable. And more consistent.
Further to that, slow-moving traffic entering and exiting is primarily on the right. Encouraging faster traffic to use that side of the road leads to a lot of unnecessary, and potentially unsafe, braking and dramatic speed changes. That is to say, there are less potential hazards on the left, less potential conflict points, and less potential for unplanned speed changes. All three are optimal for your fastest-moving traffic. Truckers also have their largest blind spots on their right, which speaks for itself..
As to why it's more efficient, I think it's obvious, but I'd probably make myself look like a fool by trying to explain it without a video. It's the best solution to allow everyone to maintain their preferred speed, with the least amount of conflict points and weaving possible.
Oh, I see, so you want to be the faster traffic using just left lane? You know,
left lane is for passing, not camping!
^ I'm not sure how you reached that first conclusion.
No matter how fast you want to go, you should still move right if you're not passing. If volumes are such that the fastest-moving traffic spends the majority of their time on the left, then so be it.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
What I see is a car moving at probably speed limit, speed limit +20 and speed limit +40. Do I care about how efficient road for superspeeder is? Hell, no
Then you shouldn't claim to care about efficiency. The real world includes people who drive slowly and people who drive fast. You calling some drivers "too fast" doesn't negate the benefit of slower drivers keeping right.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
And at 5 mph speed differentials everything would be much less drastic.
Less drastic, yes, but still there. The animation was obviously designed such that what can actually take 30 seconds in the real world is easily understood as a 10-second simplification. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
No matter how fast you want to go, you should still move right if you're not passing. If volumes are such that the fastest-moving traffic spends the majority of their time on the left, then so be it.
Exactly. I remember driving on the E-W Toll Road in the Chicago suburbs back when I lived there. The speed limit was 55 mph, but nearly all traffic went between 65 and 80 mph. In that case, the people going 65 should keep right, no matter that they're going 10 over the limit. And the people going 80 mph should move to the right if someone going 85 wants to pass
them. Often, traffic was thick enough that moving right was impractical for the fastest of traffic, but that's just common sense.
It's not a difficult concept. Keep right except to pass, a.k.a. slower traffic keep right. The actual number on your speedometer does not affect this principle.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
^ I'm not sure how you reached that first conclusion.
No matter how fast you want to go, you should still move right if you're not passing. If volumes are such that the fastest-moving traffic spends the majority of their time on the left, then so be it.
And if traffic volumes are too high, everyone must move right and stop to let The Roadgeek pass?
That is exactly what I am talking about!
Quote from: corco on May 15, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
I pass on the right only if I am 100% certain that the car in the left lane has no good reason to be there, isn't planning to get over when they think it's safe to do so, and I can get fully around them before approaching another car - which usually means I'll give them a few seconds to get over before passing.
That’s exactly how I drive in rural areas.
Urban areas are different, because there are a lot more cars, and a lot more left and middle lane hogs. In a perfect world, if everyone stayed to the right except to pass, I wouldn’t have to pass on the right, but because many drivers don’t follow this rule, it’s often necessary. I’m certainly more aggressive about passing on the right on urban freeways than on rural freeways, although I won’t pass if it looks like they’re planning on moving over. And on urban surface streets, the “keep right except to pass” rule goes out the window for everyone. Usually left-lane hogs are there because they’re going to turn left at some point.
What I won’t do is tailgate or flash my lights at other drivers waiting for them to move over. I don’t understand why people do that. If it gets to that point, just pass them on the right. Passing on the right isn’t illegal, but tailgating is, and behavior like that is passive-aggressive and annoying.
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 06:29:38 PM
It's not a difficult concept. Keep right except to pass, a.k.a. slower traffic keep right.
Problem is those are two different things, especially once traffic densifies...
Quote from: US 89 on May 15, 2018, 07:21:26 PM
What I won't do is tailgate or flash my lights at other drivers waiting for them to move over. I don't understand why people do that. If it gets to that point, just pass them on the right. Passing on the right isn't illegal, but tailgating is, and behavior like that is passive-aggressive and annoying.
Passing on the right requires much more room in right lane than moving over.
Or, if you will, passing on the right becomes almost impossible if that lane has less than 7-10 second intervals between cars - that is <500 vph, while moving over requires 4 second gap, <1000 vph give or take.
But at 1000 vph traffic will start to spill in second lane in either case.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane . . .
Quote
I started tailgating the traffic . . .
Quote
I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle . . .
Quote
Common sense just doesn't register with some people . . .
You very much seem to be one of those people.
As for myself, I don't really consider the "keep right except to pass" rule to apply in urban areas, on both regular streets and freeways. Perhaps it's the Chicagoan in me, but my experience has been that any lane is fine for most purposes, except the leftmost if things aren't too crowded.
On rural freeways, I follow the rule almost all the time. Mostly, I admit because I like the whole ritual of passing. The main exception is when the condition of the pavement in the right lane is poor, and it's just easier to stay in the left. My experience also is that most other drivers follow the rule as well. I'd say that in a day's drive in rural territory, I'll see maybe three left-lane people.
As far as passing on the right, I have no qualms or hesitation about doing so. I just keep going in the right lane. Sometimes I'll raise my eyebrow as I pass the other driver, though.
I never knew such conversation could be made from this topic. Here's my take on it:
For me, I love the right lane. While in the right lane, I never feel pressured to move over if someone is tailgating me. Thus, I cling to the right as much as I can and only use the left when I need to pass. If a slowpoke happens to be in the left lane, I think nothing of it - because I'm minding my own business in the right lane.
Basically, I see nothing wrong with passing on the right - you're in the lane you should be in.
Legal (if there's three or more lanes) and done all the time here. They want to change the law to prohibit it but that would be silly and would defeat the purpose of having three lanes in spots.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:22:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 06:29:38 PM
It's not a difficult concept. Keep right except to pass, a.k.a. slower traffic keep right.
Problem is those are two different things, especially once traffic densifies...
I'm not so sure. If you are not passing anyone, then you are by definition slower traffic.
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:22:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 06:29:38 PM
It's not a difficult concept. Keep right except to pass, a.k.a. slower traffic keep right.
Problem is those are two different things, especially once traffic densifies...
I'm not so sure. If you are not passing anyone, then you are by definition slower traffic.
You know, I am trying to advocate other options - like split speed limits - as an highway alternative. There is a lot of not-so-fine print about it; but regarding your statement: split limits do mean "slower keep right", but NOT "keep right except to pass"...
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
And if traffic volumes are too high, everyone must move right and stop to let The Roadgeek pass?
That is exactly what I am talking about!
Not at all. If volumes are too high, congestion mitigation strategies, and possibly additional lanes, should be implemented.
I let others pass on the left, and you do the same. It's the way freeways are intended to work.
Quote from: adwerkema on May 15, 2018, 08:26:19 PM
I never knew such conversation could be made from this topic.
That's because you're new here. This is just a warm-up ;-)
QuoteBasically, I see nothing wrong with passing on the right - you're in the lane you should be in.
Yes, but the caveat is keep right
except to pass. So when you're passing, as "keep right" doesn't apply, there really is no "correct lane" -
for you. That's because you're dependent on slower traffic choosing to keep right. The car being passed
does have a "correct lane" - to the right of passing cars.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
And if traffic volumes are too high, everyone must move right and stop to let The Roadgeek pass?
That is exactly what I am talking about!
Not at all. If volumes are too high, congestion mitigation strategies, and possibly additional lanes, should be implemented.
I let others pass on the left, and you do the same. It's the way freeways are intended to work.
I mentioned the difference between "slower keep right" and "keep right except to pass" above, and I believe this is significant part of different approaches. We have people on this board who explicitly said that cutting off people in right lane is OK as part of KREP strategy.
There is a huge difference between letting faster traffic pass on the left and religiously keeping right no matter what, even if that compromises other drivers' safety. That is where I see room for discussion.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 09:25:54 PM
I mentioned the difference between "slower keep right" and "keep right except to pass" above, and I believe this is significant part of different approaches.
You said something about split speed limits, but that isn't evidence of fundamental differences between the two concepts.
QuoteWe have people on this board who explicitly said that cutting off people in right lane is OK as part of KREP strategy.
I am not one of those people, so I'm not really obligated to defend that statement. In any case, if you've just passed someone, the distance between you and them is increasing, such that "cutting off" isn't really a concern.
QuoteThere is a huge difference between letting faster traffic pass on the left and religiously keeping right no matter what, even if that compromises other drivers' safety. That is where I see room for discussion.
You'll have to establish the difference. If no one even wants to pass you, then it's not of utmost importance to anyone that you move right immediately.
If someone does want to pass, you should move right; call it religious if you want, but it certainly doesn't compromise safety.
In Northeast Illinois and Northwest Indiana, it's an absolute necessity. People here do not understand the concept of lane usage at all. If I have to pass someone on the right, about 90% of the time, it leads to that car getting cut off. The annoying campers tend to go to the center lane (which I call "River Splitters") more than they do the left.
In rural areas, though, drivers are much better, especially the trucks. Almost everybody drives in the right lane, unless it's an attempted pass or there is a vehicle on the shoulder.
I passed on the right tonight. I was traveling on NB M-47 north of Freeland on the freeway stretch and was using the left lane to pass, came up to a slow moving car and a car behind the slow moving car, got over in the right lane, passed both cars and got back in the left lane to pass another car that was in the right lane, then got back over to the right lane just before the US-10 interchange.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
And if traffic volumes are too high, everyone must move right and stop to let The Roadgeek pass?
That is exactly what I am talking about!
I find this argument to be stated most often by people who look for any excuse to remain in the left lane.
If you had enough room to merge to the right, then traffic volumes weren't that high. If there's room in front of you for more vehicles, then you're probably driving too slow.
I agree with adwerkema's position.
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 09:05:56 PM
You know, I am trying to advocate other options - like split speed limits - as an highway alternative. There is a lot of not-so-fine print about it; but regarding your statement: split limits do mean "slower keep right", but NOT "keep right except to pass"...
Yes. This is a fundamental problem I have with split speed limits (by which I understand you to mean one lane has one speed limit, while another lane has another speed limit). I have actually driven on a highway like this, as a matter of fact. The right lane had a speed limit of 80 km/h, and the left lane had a speed limit of 100 km/h. By legal technicality, this means that any driver choosing to go 85 km/h is legally prohibited from letting someone pass him who chooses to go 95 km/h–even though both drivers are obeying the speed limit. This concept is flawed at its heart, no matter the good intentions behind it.
Quote from: webny99 on May 15, 2018, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 09:25:54 PM
We have people on this board who explicitly said that cutting off people in right lane is OK as part of KREP strategy.
if you've just passed someone, the distance between you and them is increasing, such that "cutting off" isn't really a concern.
This.
If someone has just passed me and then "cuts me off" by ducking back into the right lane again, I don't worry about it. The other driver is obviously going faster than I am, which means it's only a matter of seconds before safe following distance is restored. The alternative is often that an even faster, more impatient driver behind
him ends up tail-gating at high speed in the left lane. I'd rather allow a few-seconds-long shortened following distance in the slow lane than drawn-out tail-gating in the fast lane. You might come back and say the third driver shouldn't be tail-gating in the first place, but that's out of the other two drivers' control. Their responsibility is to make the highway safe, and the safest option often includes such a minor "cutting off."
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2018, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
And if traffic volumes are too high, everyone must move right and stop to let The Roadgeek pass?
If you had enough room to merge to the right, then traffic volumes weren't that high.
And this.
If traffic volumes are too high, then moving right isn't even an option. But if someone even has the
ability to overtake you on the right, then–four times out of five–you should have moved over to the right instead. There are always exceptions (faster driver recently entered the highway from the right, and you were already in the left lane, etc), but everyone knows and understands that thick traffic means best practice can't always be followed.
Speaking of thick traffic... One of the worst things you can do in a traffic jam is to suddenly jump over into another lane at 5 mph. Doing so just causes everyone else in that lane to step on their brakes, and a sort of slack-action effect takes place. The best practice for all involved is to just stay in your lane as much as possible, even if that means you personally end up losing some time or the left lane ends up being the slow lane. So I am
much more forgiving of left-lane campers in a traffic jam: I'd rather they stay there than start hot-dogging from lane to lane and disrupt everyone else on the road. Again, common sense dictates that some rules get fuzzy in thick traffic, and I don't think anyone on here is saying otherwise.
I think the problem with "slower traffic keep right" is mostly psychological. "Who are you calling slow?" "Keep right except to pass" doesn't have this problem.
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2018, 07:18:35 PM
I think the problem with "slower traffic keep right" is mostly psychological. "Who are you calling slow?" "Keep right except to pass" doesn't have this problem.
Well put - I hadn't thought of it like that. Inherently, no one likes to think that they're "slow" or "slower". The difference between
not passing and
being slower is extremely subtle, but you're probably more likely to be obligated to move right if signage uses the former "except to pass" terminology. It's less open for interpretation, too, since it's pretty clear cut whether you're actually passing or not.
On the other hand, being termed "slower" presents a more subjective (and perhaps borderline humiliating) message. The Ohio Turnpike is a classic example of the "slower traffic keep right" concept failing. Truckers are the only ones who can't possibly deny they're "slower" - so they're the only ones who use the right lane. Self-denial holds everyone else hostage in the middle and left lanes.
It's a mindset that would take massive amounts of signage, expenditure and enforcement to change, and I just don't see it happening.
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person? Or just slow down and pretend that the person in the left lane is actually in my lane like they should be?
The interstate nearest me is 3 lanes, and the locals all apparently think the right lane is only for accelerating upon entry and preparing to exit. Cars typically pull out of the right lane once they're at speed even if there is no one at all in front of them. By me utilizing the right lane, I usually never have to change my speed, whereas in the left lane, you're likely to have to speed up and slow down to deal with people trying to pass. Am I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 16, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person? Or just slow down and pretend that the person in the left lane is actually in my lane like they should be?
The interstate nearest me is 3 lanes, and the locals all apparently think the right lane is only for accelerating upon entry and preparing to exit. Cars typically pull out of the right lane once they're at speed even if there is no one at all in front of them. By me utilizing the right lane, I usually never have to change my speed, whereas in the left lane, you're likely to have to speed up and slow down to deal with people trying to pass. Am I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
There are times when the left lane is slower moving than your intended speed, such that you would stay in the left (or middle) lane for extended periods of time, but has gaps large enough to complete a pass if necessary. I don't think anyone would disagree that if you are in the right lane and happen to pass someone in the left because they're moving slower than you are, you are doing anything wrong.
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 16, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person? Or just slow down and pretend that the person in the left lane is actually in my lane like they should be?
The interstate nearest me is 3 lanes, and the locals all apparently think the right lane is only for accelerating upon entry and preparing to exit. Cars typically pull out of the right lane once they're at speed even if there is no one at all in front of them. By me utilizing the right lane, I usually never have to change my speed, whereas in the left lane, you're likely to have to speed up and slow down to deal with people trying to pass. Am I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 16, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person?
I have been known to do this. You should really
both be in the right lane, but if the other party has failed to keep right, I'll move left in enough time so that they can easily see I'm coming and move right without causing me to brake. Then, voila!, I can pass on the left.
QuoteAm I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
On six-lane highways, I have also been known to go from right lane to left lane, pass a middle-lane camper, and move all the way back to the right again. This doesn't work at rush hour, or where there's exits with high frequency. But when it's possible, there's a good chance the other party notices how awkward (and unnecessary) the maneuver was and moves right of their own accord.
Now,
should you bother doing this? You're certainly not obligated to do it. But me personally, I want the system to work as intended, so if I'm not pressed for time, I figure I might as well give it a shot :-P
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 01:28:43 PM
If driving at the exact same darned speed as the next lane over.... well, I've been known to use the inside shoulder, which is risky.
Sometimes, I like to do things completely out of the ordinary, because it's guaranteed to get someone's attention. You can ignore someone with their left blinker on; you can't ignore someone smoking past you on the shoulder.
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
On six-lane highways, I have also been known to go from right lane to left lane, pass a middle-lane camper, and move all the way back to the right again. This doesn't work at rush hour, or where there's exits with high frequency. But when it's possible, there's a good chance the other party notices how awkward (and unnecessary) the maneuver was and moves right of their own accord.
Now, should you bother doing this? You're certainly not obligated to do it. But me personally, I want the system to work as intended, so if I'm not pressed for time, I figure I might as well give it a shot :-P
Now, what do you achieve doing this, other than getting an extra ticket to "crash your car" lottery?
Of course, you can see people on a highway doing crazy things. Does it worth paying attention?
Once upon a time I was driving close to a group of motorcyclists. One of them was doing wheelies (busy highway during commute time), trying to impress his friends. Of course he missed it when they were signalling him to exit. Poor guy rode next mile looking back and trying to locate his missing chaps. He made it alive to the next exit...
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:47:19 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Now, should you bother doing this? You're certainly not obligated to do it. But me personally, I want the system to work as intended, so if I'm not pressed for time, I figure I might as well give it a shot.
Now, what do you achieve doing this, other than getting an extra ticket to "crash your car" lottery?
In theory, greater harmony with other drivers, lol :-P
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:58:34 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:47:19 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Now, should you bother doing this? You're certainly not obligated to do it. But me personally, I want the system to work as intended, so if I'm not pressed for time, I figure I might as well give it a shot.
Now, what do you achieve doing this, other than getting an extra ticket to "crash your car" lottery?
In theory, greater harmony with other drivers, lol :-P
Oh, driving as idiotic as they do? I hear you, bro..
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Well, if people would use the acceleration lane as intended (looking for and modulating their speed to slip into a gap, using the full length of the lane if necessary), we'd have a lot less congestion. Instead, people feel as if they need to move over immediately no matter what.
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Well, if people would use the acceleration lane as intended (looking for and modulating their speed to slip into a gap, using the full length of the lane if necessary), we'd have a lot less congestion. Instead, people feel as if they need to move over immediately no matter what.
If DOTs - like NYS DOT - took their time to design those ramps so that they are actually usable (and I am thinking about spots like rt 7 west to I-87 north and I-90 west to I-87 north) we would have a much better traffic flow..
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 16, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person?
I have been known to do this. You should really both be in the right lane, but if the other party has failed to keep right, I'll move left in enough time so that they can easily see I'm coming and move right without causing me to brake. Then, voila!, I can pass on the left.
QuoteAm I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
On six-lane highways, I have also been known to go from right lane to left lane, pass a middle-lane camper, and move all the way back to the right again. This doesn't work at rush hour, or where there's exits with high frequency. But when it's possible, there's a good chance the other party notices how awkward (and unnecessary) the maneuver was and moves right of their own accord.
Now, should you bother doing this? You're certainly not obligated to do it. But me personally, I want the system to work as intended, so if I'm not pressed for time, I figure I might as well give it a shot :-P
I used to do these things too, but I no longer do.
On a reasonably designed multi-lane freeway facility -- a decent amount of space (at least 0.75 miles) between on-and-off ramp clusters, no sudden appearances and/or disappearances of additional lanes (including examples of the infamous "California Shift", with right lanes exiting while new general-purpose lanes are added on the left side of the carriageway), and very clear and frequent signage indicating that a lane is restricted-use (HOV and the like) during specified periods -- some sort of left-to-right speed ordering can be expected. From experience it appears that drivers who utilize a freeway as a "shortcut" between neighborhoods in an urban area, entering the freeway only to exit it a ramp or two later, tend to stick with the right lane -- and also tend toward slower-than-average speeds. This tends to place these virtual "road boulders" on the right; other traffic entering the freeway for longer distance travel invariably moves as far left as possible to avoid these issues; an ad hoc L-R speed ordering occurs.
The problem is that current freeway configuration in urban areas, particularly out here in CA, tends to not observe the conditions outlined above; what remains -- particularly with closely-spaced interchanges and lane drops/additions, often, except during congestion periods where speed differentials are virtually impossible and inconsequential -- resembles chaos -- and certainly not the controlled kind! Add to that phenomena such as sweeper trains, almost continuous construction/reconstruction efforts, and the like; any semblance of ordering devolves to "every driver for themselves". By contrast, rural multilane stretches, unless occuplied by those drivers, commercial or otherwise, who have no recognition of their operating environment, seem to lend themselves to a much more ordered operating system. Left-lane "campers", save the ones described above, find themselves with other vehicles virtually "driving up their ass", so unless they're oblivious, they'll move over as a matter of course.
I don't see urban freeways -- unless a large-scale reconfiguration takes place -- lending themselves to a regular expression of speed ordering; there are just too many variables to consider; enforcement wouldn't be and probably is not a feasible solution there. On rural freeways & highways, particularly the 2+2 facilities that dominate the genre, some level of enforcement is at least marginally feasible, particularly in egregious cases.
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 01:16:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Well, if people would use the acceleration lane as intended (looking for and modulating their speed to slip into a gap, using the full length of the lane if necessary), we'd have a lot less congestion. Instead, people feel as if they need to move over immediately no matter what.
If DOTs - like NYS DOT - took their time to design those ramps so that they are actually usable (and I am thinking about spots like rt 7 west to I-87 north and I-90 west to I-87 north) we would have a much better traffic flow..
I don't think the geometry on those ramps forces people to go significantly slow. I don't need to slow down at all for I-90 west to I-87 north (at least not if I'm not stuck behind someone). I don't have reason to travel NY 7 west to I-87 north much, but it doesn't look too different. That last curve might require going 50, but that's not hard, and there's plenty of acceleration lane. I don't understand why Capital District drivers feel the need to go no faster than 40 until they've already merged into traffic, regardless of ramp geometry.
Or maybe it's because I drive a sedan instead of the SUVs that seem to get more common every year. I know from driving the Dodge Caravan for some data services tasks that what feels slow to me often feels fast in a larger vehicle.
Quote from: kphoger on May 17, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
I have been known to do this. You should really both be in the right lane, but if the other party has failed to keep right, I'll move left in enough time so that they can easily see I'm coming and move right without causing me to brake. Then, voila!, I can pass on the left.
On six-lane highways, I have also been known to go from right lane to left lane, pass a middle-lane camper, and move all the way back to the right again.
I used to do these things too, but I no longer do.
This leaves me curious as to why. An internal factor, like becoming more mature (or something :)), or an external one, like a near-accident?
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 01:16:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Well, if people would use the acceleration lane as intended (looking for and modulating their speed to slip into a gap, using the full length of the lane if necessary), we'd have a lot less congestion. Instead, people feel as if they need to move over immediately no matter what.
If DOTs - like NYS DOT - took their time to design those ramps so that they are actually usable (and I am thinking about spots like rt 7 west to I-87 north and I-90 west to I-87 north) we would have a much better traffic flow..
I don't think the geometry on those ramps forces people to go significantly slow. I don't need to slow down at all for I-90 west to I-87 north (at least not if I'm not stuck behind someone). I don't have reason to travel NY 7 west to I-87 north much, but it doesn't look too different. That last curve might require going 50, but that's not hard, and there's plenty of acceleration lane. I don't understand why Capital District drivers feel the need to go no faster than 40 until they've already merged into traffic, regardless of ramp geometry.
Or maybe it's because I drive a sedan instead of the SUVs that seem to get more common every year. I know from driving the Dodge Caravan for some data services tasks that what feels slow to me often feels fast in a larger vehicle.
It all works if there is enough room to merge without lane dropping into congestion mode. Now with plenty of people trying to get to exit 2, and a few idiots who just want to keep right it quickly goes into a mode when overall traffic flow speed drops. My favorite graph, you know.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saveoakhill.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Fspeedflow.png&hash=079ecc8bd51090e43cbeaf70376beb92853a57e2)
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 03:00:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 17, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
I have been known to do this. You should really both be in the right lane, but if the other party has failed to keep right, I'll move left in enough time so that they can easily see I'm coming and move right without causing me to brake. Then, voila!, I can pass on the left.
On six-lane highways, I have also been known to go from right lane to left lane, pass a middle-lane camper, and move all the way back to the right again.
I used to do these things too, but I no longer do.
This leaves me curious as to why. An internal factor, like becoming more mature (or something :)), or an external one, like a near-accident?
Because I realized it's pointless.
I now pass in the right lane but glare at the driver through my window. That actually has more effect.
Quote from: kphoger on May 17, 2018, 03:14:18 PM
I now pass in the right lane but glare at the driver through my window. That actually has more effect.
I have done this on occasion, but generally speaking, I don't have the patience to pass them slowly enough to ensure they've seen my glare*.
*Which, among other features, includes sticking my teeth out in a beaver-like fashion.
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 03:21:39 PM
*Which, among other features, includes sticking my teeth out in a beaver-like fashion.
(https://i.imgur.com/tD8mrA5.png)
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 01:16:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
Well, if people would use the acceleration lane as intended (looking for and modulating their speed to slip into a gap, using the full length of the lane if necessary), we'd have a lot less congestion. Instead, people feel as if they need to move over immediately no matter what.
If DOTs - like NYS DOT - took their time to design those ramps so that they are actually usable (and I am thinking about spots like rt 7 west to I-87 north and I-90 west to I-87 north) we would have a much better traffic flow..
I don't think the geometry on those ramps forces people to go significantly slow. I don't need to slow down at all for I-90 west to I-87 north (at least not if I'm not stuck behind someone). I don't have reason to travel NY 7 west to I-87 north much, but it doesn't look too different. That last curve might require going 50, but that's not hard, and there's plenty of acceleration lane. I don't understand why Capital District drivers feel the need to go no faster than 40 until they've already merged into traffic, regardless of ramp geometry.
Or maybe it's because I drive a sedan instead of the SUVs that seem to get more common every year. I know from driving the Dodge Caravan for some data services tasks that what feels slow to me often feels fast in a larger vehicle.
It all works if there is enough room to merge without lane dropping into congestion mode. Now with plenty of people trying to get to exit 2, and a few idiots who just want to keep right it quickly goes into a mode when overall traffic flow speed drops. My favorite graph, you know.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saveoakhill.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Fspeedflow.png&hash=079ecc8bd51090e43cbeaf70376beb92853a57e2)
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2018, 03:44:33 PM
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
There are many similar graphs for different speed limits, locations and conditions. Some very best situations push 2400 vph, but overall trend is the same.
Quote from: kphoger on May 17, 2018, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 03:21:39 PM
*Which, among other features, includes sticking my teeth out in a beaver-like fashion.
[img snipped]
Am I supposed to recognize that person? (or is it a selfie?)
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 17, 2018, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 03:21:39 PM
*Which, among other features, includes sticking my teeth out in a beaver-like fashion.
[img snipped]http://
Am I supposed to recognize that person? (or is it a selfie?)
(https://i.imgur.com/kE2ZWvV.jpg)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2018, 03:44:33 PM
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
In my experience driving in Washington (where this graph was modelled), no one does less than 63 in a 60 unless they're stuck behind someone else. Free flowing traffic is almost always near 70. I have no idea where they pulled these numbers. They are more than likely quite old, indeed.
FWIW, I believe WSDOT kept limits at 55 until after the NSL was eliminated, before raising them to 65 and then eventually 70 a few years later.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 17, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2018, 03:44:33 PM
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
In my experience driving in Washington (where this graph was modelled), no one does less than 63 in a 60 unless they're stuck behind someone else. Free flowing traffic is almost always near 70. I have no idea where they pulled these numbers. They are more than likely quite old, indeed.
FWIW, I believe WSDOT kept limits at 55 until after the NSL was eliminated, before raising them to 65 and then eventually 70 a few years later.
Well, if you really care, here is the narration for the graph:
I-405northbound at 24 th NE, 6 am - 10 am weekdays volume in May 2010; Speed limit 60mph
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 17, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2018, 03:44:33 PM
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
In my experience driving in Washington (where this graph was modelled), no one does less than 63 in a 60 unless they're stuck behind someone else. Free flowing traffic is almost always near 70. I have no idea where they pulled these numbers. They are more than likely quite old, indeed.
FWIW, I believe WSDOT kept limits at 55 until after the NSL was eliminated, before raising them to 65 and then eventually 70 a few years later.
Well, if you really care, here is the narration for the graph:
I-405northbound at 24 th NE, 6 am - 10 am weekdays volume in May 2010; Speed limit 60mph
Confusing. The 405 passes two 24th's with a "NE" designation. Once in Renton, and again in Bellevue (near the 520).
Assuming it's discussing the Renton section, since northbound is the peak direction in this area, the 405 is just finishing a long hill-climb after passing over NE Park Drive, so it's not much of a surprise that average speeds are lower here than other sections. I'd bet 405 northbound just before NE 44th (exit 7, about a mile later) is probably close to 70 or higher, since it's at the bottom of a large hill. NE 30th (exit 6) is the peak of a large hill.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 17, 2018, 06:07:27 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 17, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2018, 03:44:33 PM
Hah. This clearly isn't representative of drivers used to heavy traffic conditions. Driving 75 mph at, maybe, 2 car lengths behind each other? Completely normal. Being the graphic doesn't even shown anyone driving over 62 mph, I can't see it being a very realistic graph anymore.
I'm guessing that graphic was made when the national speed limit was 65 mph.
In my experience driving in Washington (where this graph was modelled), no one does less than 63 in a 60 unless they're stuck behind someone else. Free flowing traffic is almost always near 70. I have no idea where they pulled these numbers. They are more than likely quite old, indeed.
FWIW, I believe WSDOT kept limits at 55 until after the NSL was eliminated, before raising them to 65 and then eventually 70 a few years later.
Well, if you really care, here is the narration for the graph:
I-405northbound at 24 th NE, 6 am - 10 am weekdays volume in May 2010; Speed limit 60mph
Confusing. The 405 passes two 24th's with a "NE" designation. Once in Renton, and again in Bellevue (near the 520).
Assuming it's discussing the Renton section, since northbound is the peak direction in this area, the 405 is just finishing a long hill-climb after passing over NE Park Drive, so it's not much of a surprise that average speeds are lower here than other sections. I'd bet 405 northbound just before NE 44th (exit 7, about a mile later) is probably close to 70 or higher, since it's at the bottom of a large hill. NE 30th (exit 6) is the peak of a large hill.
Honestly speaking, I saw many such graphs. Higher speed limit postpones onset of congestion (although I don't quite understand why), but not by much. Overall shape is the same.
Bonus question: Do you allow others to pass you on the right?
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them. But not always. Better to let it go in certain circumstances.
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
Bonus question: Do you allow others to pass you on the right?
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them. But not always. Better to let it go in certain circumstances.
Khm... May I ask, if someone is approaching fast on your right.... why you're not in the right lane to begin with?!
Yes and no. If I am passing a car and they are trying to slip between me and the car -- possibly cutting me off -- I do speed up a little, pass the intended car and then move over for them.
But, there are those embarrassing times where I am not going as well with traffic as I think I am and am blocking the left lane inappropriately. An example of this is when I think I'm catching up well enough to a car in the right lane a good distance in front of me when I am not, given how fast traffic is actually going. In those cases, instead of moving in front of the faster car, I let them go by and then move over. I don't impede their travel.
I suppose it comes down to the fact that I do my best to use the left lane for passing and the distance between me and whatever car I am passing is a major factor.
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 16, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
I don't understand the concept of this thread even. If I'm in the right lane because I'm not passing anyone, like I should be, is someone expecting me to pull into the left lane and wait behind the person? Or just slow down and pretend that the person in the left lane is actually in my lane like they should be?
The interstate nearest me is 3 lanes, and the locals all apparently think the right lane is only for accelerating upon entry and preparing to exit. Cars typically pull out of the right lane once they're at speed even if there is no one at all in front of them. By me utilizing the right lane, I usually never have to change my speed, whereas in the left lane, you're likely to have to speed up and slow down to deal with people trying to pass. Am I supposed to move over to the left lane, over the middle lane, to pass someone in the middle lane, or just stay in the right lane?
I assume you're talking about an urban area with 3 lanes?
Over here, we have a 7-mile interstate stretch within urban area (which happens to be my daily commute road) with 7 exits, two of those being interchanges with another freeway - and a lot of traffic. If you head past the last of seven exits and insist on staying in right lane, you probably caused a few people to maneuver around you. If there are few such right-bound cars in a row, one can easily face a choice of stopping on a ramp and causing a backup (and hopefully no accident), or acceleration to 30-40 MPH above speed limit to jump ahead of such queue. So yes, there are times when right lane better be used as a ramp
More suburban/rural... and the ramps all have acceleration lanes giving almost every vehicle plenty of time to accelerate and find a good time to merge around people going the speed limit. Why would they need to be 30-40 above the speed limit? I don't drive more then 9 over. I do occasionally need to move over for a merging truck that couldn't accelerate, and this topic, to me at least, seems to indicate a no congestion situation.
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 18, 2018, 07:46:45 AM
Why would they need to be 30-40 above the speed limit? I don't drive more then 9 over. I do occasionally need to move over for a merging truck that couldn't accelerate, and this topic, to me at least, seems to indicate a no congestion situation.
If you have a two-lane ramp with one lane quickly ending and second becoming an exit-only lane of 2-lane exit in less than a mile , and you have traffic getting into the exit , and some people just keeping right... gaps to move into through lane are few and far in between.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
Bonus question: Do you allow others to pass you on the right?
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them. But not always. Better to let it go in certain circumstances.
Khm... May I ask, if someone is approaching fast on your right.... why you're not in the right lane to begin with?!
Usually I am, so it doesn't happen often. But sometimes I've just completed a pass on the left and move to the middle lane, only to find a car on the far right also passing and in fact gaining on me. Other times, I've just make a lane switch based on a prediction about traffic flow which turns out to be inaccurate, especially in areas with left exits.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
Bonus question: Do you allow others to pass you on the right?
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them. But not always. Better to let it go in certain circumstances.
Khm... May I ask, if someone is approaching fast on your right.... why you're not in the right lane to begin with?!
Usually I am, so it doesn't happen often. But sometimes I've just completed a pass on the left and move to the middle lane, only to find a car on the far right also passing and in fact gaining on me. Other times, I've just make a lane switch based on a prediction about traffic flow which turns out to be inaccurate, especially in areas with left exits.
Excuses, excuses... Only to prevent someone from passing you...
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
Bonus question: Do you allow others to pass you on the right?
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them. But not always. Better to let it go in certain circumstances.
Khm... May I ask, if someone is approaching fast on your right.... why you're not in the right lane to begin with?!
Exactly. He's failing to keep right except when passing. When another vehicle sees the right lane is open, suddenly web decides to move over. Now he's created 2 dangerous conditions. The other driver isn't exactly "trading places", but more like cursing Webny for cutting in front of him.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
sometimes I've just completed a pass on the left and move to the middle lane, only to find a car on the far right also passing and in fact gaining on me. Other times, I've just make a lane switch based on a prediction about traffic flow which turns out to be inaccurate, especially in areas with left exits.
Excuses, excuses...
That's what you wanted, wasn't it? You literally asked me to explain why I wouldn't be in the right lane, so I gave some very feasible, legitimate, reasons. In fact, both things have happened to me within the past week. And neither scenario is preventable unless
several drivers did something different, not just me.
QuoteOnly to prevent someone from passing you...
I don't know where you pulled that from. Switching places with another driver, to allow a correct passing maneuver doesn't "prevent" anyone from passing.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:33:42 AM
I don't know where you pulled that from. Switching places with another driver, to allow a correct passing maneuver doesn't "prevent" anyone from passing.
Explain why you weren't in the right lane to begin with.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:33:42 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
sometimes I've just completed a pass on the left and move to the middle lane, only to find a car on the far right also passing and in fact gaining on me. Other times, I've just make a lane switch based on a prediction about traffic flow which turns out to be inaccurate, especially in areas with left exits.
Excuses, excuses...
That's what you wanted, wasn't it? You literally asked me to explain why I wouldn't be in the right lane, so I gave some very feasible, legitimate, reasons. In fact, both things have happened to me within the past week. And neither scenario is preventable unless several drivers did something different, not just me.
QuoteOnly to prevent someone from passing you...
I don't know where you pulled that from. Switching places with another driver, to allow a correct passing maneuver doesn't "prevent" anyone from passing.
Actually what I am trying to understand is what causes you to go into some quite strange behavior patterns - like cutting off faster moving vehicles, expressing aggression towards other drivers, multiple unnecessary lane changes..
There is one factor you don't like me mentioning, that may partially explain all this, but overall my growing impression is that insistence on KREP is correlated with aggressive and unsafe road behavior.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 08:22:37 AM
When another vehicle sees the right lane is open, suddenly web decides to move over. Now he's created 2 dangerous conditions. The other driver isn't exactly "trading places", but more like cursing Webny for cutting in front of him.
Suddenly decides to move over? You are clearly not familiar with the amount of passing on the right around here, and must have also misunderstood what I meant by "switching places".
Anyways, let me outline in a bit more detail one of the scenarios in which I wouldn't be in the right lane, and someone is approaching on the right:
I'm on a six lane highway approaching some middle lane campers. The right and left lanes are both available to use for passing, but I choose the left, since I figure I'll be past and moved right again before I slow anyone down. Someone else comes up going ever-so-slightly faster than me, and chooses to pass on the right. I finish passing first, and move into the center lane. But the person on my right has almost caught up to me.
Now I have a choice: move right, or let them pass on the right. Obviously, it depends how close they are, whether there's upcoming exits, etc. But I certainly wouldn't cut them off; I'd ensure they could smoothly move left without braking, and if they couldn't, I'd stay in the center lane. It's not like I'm committed to one particular approach, it really depends on the specifics.
I think that sufficiently addresses your further comment (which you posted while I was composing this post).
Hasn't happened for a while, but I have been passed on the right hand shoulder while traveling in the right lane at the speed limit. Usually when there are a bunch of trucks passing me on the left and they just aren't going fast enough over the speed limit to make everyone else happy.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 08:22:37 AM
When another vehicle sees the right lane is open, suddenly web decides to move over. Now he's created 2 dangerous conditions. The other driver isn't exactly "trading places", but more like cursing Webny for cutting in front of him.
Suddenly decides to move over? You are clearly not familiar with the amount of passing on the right around here, and must have also misunderstood what I meant by "switching places".
Anyways, let me outline in a bit more detail one of the scenarios in which I wouldn't be in the right lane, and someone is approaching on the right:
I'm on a six lane highway approaching some middle lane campers. The right and left lanes are both available to use for passing, but I choose the left, since I figure I'll be past and moved right again before I slow anyone down. Someone else comes up going ever-so-slightly faster than me, and chooses to pass on the right. I finish passing first, and move into the center lane. But the person on my right has almost caught up to me.
Now I have a choice: move right, or let them pass on the right. Obviously, it depends how close they are, whether there's upcoming exits, etc. But I certainly wouldn't cut them off; I'd ensure they could smoothly move left without braking, and if they couldn't, I'd stay in the center lane. It's not like I'm committed to one particular approach, it really depends on the specifics.
I think that sufficiently addresses your further comment (which you posted while I was composing this post).
OK, let's see. You are doing 4 unnecessary lane changes, and cutting off at least one other car. Good job for keeping our accident rate up!
Passing on the right on multilane road is explicitly legal in NY. Anything else is just your agression.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 08:22:37 AM
When another vehicle sees the right lane is open, suddenly web decides to move over. Now he's created 2 dangerous conditions. The other driver isn't exactly "trading places", but more like cursing Webny for cutting in front of him.
Suddenly decides to move over? You are clearly not familiar with the amount of passing on the right around here, and must have also misunderstood what I meant by "switching places".
That means that people aren't keeping right except to pass. Since passing on the right is a legal move as noted by Kalvado, there's nothing wrong in doing it.
Quote
Anyways, let me outline in a bit more detail one of the scenarios in which I wouldn't be in the right lane, and someone is approaching on the right:
I'm on a six lane highway approaching some middle lane campers. The right and left lanes are both available to use for passing, but I choose the left, since I figure I'll be past and moved right again before I slow anyone down. Someone else comes up going ever-so-slightly faster than me, and chooses to pass on the right. I finish passing first, and move into the center lane. But the person on my right has almost caught up to me.
Now I have a choice: move right, or let them pass on the right. Obviously, it depends how close they are, whether there's upcoming exits, etc. But I certainly wouldn't cut them off; I'd ensure they could smoothly move left without braking, and if they couldn't, I'd stay in the center lane. It's not like I'm committed to one particular approach, it really depends on the specifics.
I think that sufficiently addresses your further comment (which you posted while I was composing this post).
The thing about seeing behind you - you can't see if they're braking.
Also, if you're in the middle lane, you're one of the middle lane campers as well. You're part of the problem here.
Besides, going back to the first thing: It's "Keep Right Except To Pass", not "Keep Center Except To Pass". If you were in the right lane to begin with, you could just continue in that lane without merging at all. Since you're in the center lane, and a slower vehicle is also in the center lane, you decide to pass on the left, which is perfectly fine. But to merge back to the center lane, then suddenly merge to the right lane because you see a faster car in the right lane, is an asinine move on your part, which most likely confuses and annoys the person you're merging in front of, regardless of the distance.
I see it on the highways myself - there's a car in the center or left lane. I'm in the right or center lane. Suddenly that car moves in front of me. Now I have to move over to pass him. That's two lane switches that didn't have to happen if the lead car just stayed in their lane until I passed.
In my experience, on a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction, even if traffic is free-flowing, not everyone can use the right lane; there's not enough capacity for every car to use a single lane.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 08:46:19 AM
actually what I am trying to understand is what causes you to go into some quite strange behavior patterns - like cutting off faster moving vehicles, expressing aggression towards other drivers, multiple unnecessary lane changes..
Cutting people off is not something I do, ever. I have, at times, expressed
irritation, but only when provoked for extended periods of time. You have to very persistently do the wrong thing before I'll go into the red zone, and it has happened, but it doesn't happen often.
Regarding multiple lane changes, I actually think it's enjoyable and quite relaxing to apply the European mindset on US freeways, especially low-volume ones. Drivers in this country tend to make a big deal about lane changes, when really, moving left-right, left-right, is so much more efficient (and, as I said, enjoyable, and far from unsafe - though it would be interesting to establish a minimum spacing for doing this).
QuoteThere is one factor you don't like me mentioning, that may partially explain all this, but overall my growing impression is that insistence on KREP is correlated with aggressive and unsafe road behavior.
You hadn't mentioned it until now, so I never had an opportunity to say I don't like you mentioning it. I don't like people making stuff up, but that's not specific to you :-P
Quote from: 1 on May 18, 2018, 09:06:50 AM
In my experience, on a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction, even if traffic is free-flowing, not everyone can use the right lane; there's not enough capacity for every car to use a single lane.
It's never expected that everyone should be using the right lane. I don't understand why people think that, other than using it as an excuse why they hog the other lanes.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
Cutting people off is not something I do, ever. I
Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them.
This is exactly what cutting off is - changing into the lane where someone else reasonably expects to see no cars.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
You hadn't mentioned it until now, so I never had an opportunity to say I don't like you mentioning it. I don't like people making stuff up, but that's not specific to you :-P
It is an observation. There are at least 3 people in this thread who seems not to be shy about their unsafe habits. I'll just keep monitoring.
Some are really hilarious.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 15, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane . . .
Quote
I started tailgating the traffic . . .
Quote
I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle . . .
Quote
Common sense just doesn't register with some people . . .
You very much seem to be one of those people.
Oh, and btw... if you're applying european mindset - you're driving just below posted speed limit, right?
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
Oh, and btw... if you're applying european mindset - you're driving just below posted speed limit, right?
Except Europe would post the speed limit higher than upstate NY (and most of the US) would.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 09:01:59 AM
Also, if you're in the middle lane, you're one of the middle lane campers as well. You're part of the problem here.
Come on. Using the middle lane does not make you a middle lane camper. In fact, the middle lane, by definition, is
between the left and right lanes, so it's a bit hard to get from one to the other without using the middle lane.
QuoteBut to merge back to the center lane, then suddenly merge to the right lane because you see a faster car in the right lane, is an asinine move on your part, which most likely confuses and annoys the person you're merging in front of, regardless of the distance.
I'm pretty sure they'd prefer to pass me on the left, and if it really confuses them, they should not really be on the road. Keep right is a concept all drivers are familiar with; whether they prefer to adhere is a different matter, but someone moving right when they see you approaching couldn't possibly be unexpected.
QuoteI see it on the highways myself - there's a car in the center or left lane. I'm in the right or center lane. Suddenly that car moves in front of me. Now I have to move over to pass him. That's two lane switches that didn't have to happen if the lead car just stayed in their lane until I passed.
Lane switches are not inherently bad. It's how freeways work, and if the maneuver enables faster traffic to move by on the left, so be it. Trying to avoid lane switches, to me, suggests an indescribable degree of laziness. We're talking about less energy and about as much intuition as hitting snooze on your alarm.
Quote from: 1 on May 18, 2018, 09:26:22 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
Oh, and btw... if you're applying european mindset - you're driving just below posted speed limit, right?
Except Europe would post the speed limit higher than upstate NY (and most of the US) would.
And I believe that is part of a common problem. We want to have a cake and eat it too - we want slower traffic to keep right AND we want someone driving "just" 5 MPH above speed limit to be considered slow. Coherent rules would make life better for everyone.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:29:41 AM
Lane switches are not inherently bad. It's how freeways work, and if the maneuver enables faster traffic to move by on the left, so be it. Trying to avoid lane switches, to me, suggests an indescribable degree of laziness. We're talking about less energy and about as much intuition as hitting snooze on your alarm.
Lane change is not inherently bad - but it is a maneuver with associated degree of hazard. We can work to minimize those hazards - but risks cannot be fully eliminated, and lane change may increase chance of an accident. In general, we accept this risk as a necessary evil. No need to bring more evil on the road, though.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 09:22:07 AM
It's never expected that everyone should be using the right lane.
Maybe not in Jersey. But, yes, it is the
original premise that everyone should use the right lane. As volumes climb, it becomes less and less feasible.
However, oftentimes volumes are low enough that the middle lane campers actually should have been (and could easily be) on the right.
Then - not at rush hour - is when the expectation is for everyone to keep to the right lane, using the far left lane only as demand increases.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
There are at least 3 people in this thread who seems not to be shy about their unsafe habits. I'll just keep monitoring.
Some are really hilarious.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 15, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane . . .
Quote
I started tailgating the traffic . . .
Quote
I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle . . .
Quote
Common sense just doesn't register with some people . . .
You very much seem to be one of those people.
That was, admittedly, quite hilarious. But it was due to CtrlAltDel's dry humor, not the actual unsafe habits.
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).
For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density and exit frequency.
I added a little caveat. But other than that, I agree 100% with this position.
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).
For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic. I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:44:40 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
There are at least 3 people in this thread who seems not to be shy about their unsafe habits. I'll just keep monitoring.
Some are really hilarious.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 15, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane . . .
Quote
I started tailgating the traffic . . .
Quote
I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle . . .
Quote
Common sense just doesn't register with some people . . .
You very much seem to be one of those people.
That was, admittedly, quite hilarious. But it was due to CtrlAltDel's dry humor, not the actual unsafe habits.
OK, OK, passing on a shoulder is not an unsafe habit; tailgating is not an unsafe habit... Cutting off, as we were told, is not an unsafe habit as well. What is unsafe, in such a case?
Quote from: Rothman on May 18, 2018, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).
For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic. I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.
KREP is a good idea in some narrow case of circumstances - road is somewhat busy, but nowhere close to full. I assume that was a common case when existing set of rules was drafted - and nobody envisioned 3-4-5 packed lanes in the same direction
On empty road lane lane use doesn't really matter; on full highway all lanes will move at whatever slow rate is possible...
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 10:23:01 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:44:40 AM
That was, admittedly, quite hilarious. But it was due to CtrlAltDel's dry humor, not the actual unsafe habits.
OK, OK, passing on a shoulder is not an unsafe habit; tailgating is not an unsafe habit... Cutting off, as we were told, is not an unsafe habit as well. What is unsafe, in such a case?
I'm not saying those habits are safe. I'm just saying it wasn't funny until it was put in context for us.
About the only places I will consistently drive in the left lane for any length of time, aside from urban areas in heavy and slow traffic, is if a road is really bad. Autoroute 15 from the border up to Montreal is a good example–the right lane is often in terrible shape, so I drive in the left lane, but I still move to the right to let people pass and then move back.
The way I see it is that I hate to be held up, so I try not to hold up other people.
With that said, in Virginia and Maryland you often have no choice but to pass on the right. A lot of people seem to think they're on a British motorway because they insist on staying as far left as possible. In Maryland in particular I've sometimes found the right lane to be the fastest because people are so afraid of it. I distinguish between "passing on the right," which to me implies moving to the right and then getting back over, versus "undertaking," which I've always understood to mean that for whatever reason the lane to the right (or the left in the UK) is simply moving faster such that going the speed of traffic means you "pass" without changing lanes. I've always understood the latter to be no problem at all (except insofar as the cause is someone obstructing the passing lane, but that's a different person's fault).
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them.
This is exactly what cutting off is - changing into the lane where someone else reasonably expects to see no cars.
No, not necessarily. If the approaching car is far enough back, then it's quite possible to get into the right lane before impeding the other driver's travel, thereby allowing him the opportunity to move left and pass you on the correct side. "Quick" in this scenario does not necessarily imply "close," but often implies that, once the other driver sees you put your right blinker on, he immediately prepares to change lanes to the left. Quick meaning "in quick succession," not "all of a sudden."
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 08:56:21 AM
Passing on the right on multilane road is explicitly legal in NY. Anything else is just your agression.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 09:01:59 AM
Since passing on the right is a legal move as noted by Kalvado, there's nothing wrong in doing it.
Just because something is legal, that doesn't mean it's best practice. That is to say, just because something is legal, that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. There is a general notion that slower traffic should keep right and passing should be done on the left. Even though there are states with no prohibition against left lane hogging, I maintain that there's still something "wrong in doing it" even in those places, because it goes against the general notion of how traffic should flow–thereby creating the potential to tick other drivers off, which can lead to road rage.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
We want to have a cake and eat it too - we want slower traffic to keep right AND we want someone driving "just" 5 MPH above speed limit to be considered slow.
Not slow. Slow
ER. There's a big distinction. I don't care what number the speedo needle is pointing to; if you're slow
ER than someone else, then that makes you slower traffic. Period. You could be going 10 under, and someone needs to pass at 5 under. Or you could be going 15 over, and someone needs to pass at 20 over. Same difference.
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane?
The purpose of the center lane should be the same as the left lane.
If your roadway has three lanes traveling in the same direction, then you should keep to the rightmost lane except to pass. When you need to pass, you do so using the center lane, then move back over to the rightmost lane. The third lane (left lane) is there for when someone
else needs to pass
you while
you're completing a pass. And I think we all understand the goal: slowest traffic on the right, fastest traffic on the left, in-betweeners in the middle.
But what center lane camping does is to mess that all up. With center lane campers in the mix, the right lane ends up being a jumble of the slowest and fastest traffic on the road, because center lane camping encourages passing on the right.
Quote from: Rothman on May 18, 2018, 10:01:57 AM
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic. I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.
This is not only a concern for urban traffic, but also on I-35 in Texas. Exits are so closely spaced in Texas due to the frontage road system, that entering/exiting traffic is a definite concern when keeping to the right lane. But here's the thing: if traffic is heavy enough that entering/exiting traffic really does impede one's ability to keep right, then I don't think anyone would (at least I wouldn't) fault someone for sticking to the center lane.
BUT, center lane camping as S.O.P., just because you
think entering/exiting traffic might
potentially interfere with you being in the right lane, and you just don't want to have to worry about it, then you're being a lazy driver, in essence telling all the other driver, "You guys can watch out for traffic, I don't feel like it."
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 18, 2018, 02:13:11 PM
About the only places I will consistently drive in the left lane for any length of time, aside from urban areas in heavy and slow traffic, is if a road is really bad. Autoroute 15 from the border up to Montreal is a good example–the right lane is often in terrible shape, so I drive in the left lane, but I still move to the right to let people pass and then move back.
This is a common scenario in Mexico, where pavement quality is often poor. Keeping right is fully ingrained in the Mexican mind, but (and also therefore) the right lane can get pretty beat up. Because of this, trucks especially frequently choose to drive in the left lane or on the right shoulder, where the pavement is in better condition. But those who choose the left lane will always move to the right again if a car comes up to pass them, then they'll move back to the left again once the car has completed the passing maneuver. I do this as well, and it works. But, obviously, this really only functions if traffic volumes are low enough that keeping right or not doesn't really affect traffic flow.
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).
For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The middle lane is for passing traffic in the right lane. Nobody is expecting you to go back to the right lane between every single vehicle you pass, if the gap is small enough that by the time you get back to the right lane, you're going to need to go back to the center lane to pass another vehicle and nobody would be able to pass you without slowing down, the expectation is for you to just stay there (my general rule is if someone is able to pass you on the right without severely cutting you and someone else off, you are in the wrong lane). If you're going 5 over and a bunch of people are going the speed limit in the right lane, you could end up rightfully not going back to the right lane for long periods of time, even in freeflow conditions, because you're passing many, many people. This happens frequently when the freeway is more then 50% full, but you're still supposed to get to the right when there is larger gaps, as thats how congestion slowing everybody down starts to happen.
There also is being courteous. If you're passing someone in the center lane, and they approach a slower vehicle and want to move to the center lane to pass them, even though you aren't moving to the left to pass, its still courteous to do so, and once they perform their maneuver, you'll still be following KREP. Same with vehicles entering the highway... you see they're going to be merging right into you, you could pull to the left to make room for a few seconds, but it generally should not need the entire right lane to clear out, usually there's not a constant flow of cars without gaps entering the highway.
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 18, 2018, 02:55:18 PM
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).
For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.
Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The middle lane is for passing traffic in the right lane. Nobody is expecting you to go back to the right lane between every single vehicle you pass, if the gap is small enough that by the time you get back to the right lane, you're going to need to go back to the center lane to pass another vehicle and nobody would be able to pass you without slowing down, the expectation is for you to just stay there (my general rule is if someone is able to pass you on the right without severely cutting you and someone else off, you are in the wrong lane). If you're going 5 over and a bunch of people are going the speed limit in the right lane, you could end up rightfully not going back to the right lane for long periods of time, even in freeflow conditions, because you're passing many, many people. This happens frequently when the freeway is more then 50% full, but you're still supposed to get to the right when there is larger gaps, as thats how congestion slowing everybody down starts to happen.
There also is being courteous. If you're passing someone in the center lane, and they approach a slower vehicle and want to move to the center lane to pass them, even though you aren't moving to the left to pass, its still courteous to do so, and once they perform their maneuver, you'll still be following KREP. Same with vehicles entering the highway... you see they're going to be merging right into you, you could pull to the left to make room for a few seconds, but it generally should not need the entire right lane to clear out, usually there's not a constant flow of cars without gaps entering the highway.
This is a very reasonable reply.
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
"Quick" in this scenario does not necessarily imply "close," but often implies that, once the other driver sees you put your right blinker on, he immediately prepares to change lanes to the left. Quick meaning "in quick succession," not "all of a sudden."
Thank you. Exactly this, as in, in unison.
QuoteBut here's the thing: if traffic is heavy enough that entering/exiting traffic really does impede one's ability to keep right, then I don't think anyone would (at least I wouldn't) fault someone for sticking to the center lane. BUT, center lane camping as S.O.P., just because you think entering/exiting traffic might potentially interfere with you being in the right lane, and you just don't want to have to worry about it, then you're being a lazy driver, in essence telling all the other driver, "You guys can watch out for traffic, I don't feel like it."
I agree with that, especially that last sentence. It just doesn't make sense to try to minimize your own lane changes at the expense of traffic flow.
In my experience, though, whether or not middle lane camping is acceptable has more to do with
exit frequency, and less to do with
traffic density. Take, for example, this section (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Orange+Turnpike+%26+New+York+State+Thruway+%26+Governor+Thomas+E.+Dewey+Thruway,+Sloatsburg,+NY+10974/41.3010575,-74.1340218/@41.2602992,-74.1921074,11.21z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2de2afc87a43f:0x908bc76eafb1f71e!2m2!1d-74.1687489!2d41.1379715!1m0) of the thruway, on which there are 13 miles between exits, despite volumes which easily warrant six lanes. On roads like this, there is
never an excuse to camp in the middle lane, even if volumes are as high, if not higher, than your typical urban six-lane freeway. On the other hand, I'd be
much more willing to forgive middle lane camping on this section (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1437138,-77.5863667,16.06z) of I-490, despite similar volumes (and presumably similar density) to the thruway example.
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2018, 03:03:36 PM
This is a very reasonable reply.
I'm trying to decide if I want this in my signature, or manually inserted on every post I make from now on :-P
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 03:18:55 PM
In my experience, though, whether or not middle lane camping is acceptable has more to do with exit frequency, and less to do with traffic density.
It's a combination of the two. There are highways where exits are few and far between, but traffic is thick (such as your example). There are also highways where exits are frequent but hardly anyone gets on or off at them (such as rural Texas). Keeping right should be expected in both cases. It's when both frequency and volume increase that keeping right is no longer feasible.