DFW: IH-30 alignment recommended for possible future rail line

[MaxConcrete]

See page 87 in the link below. See pages prior to page 87 for the alignments considered in the universe of alternatives
https://www.nctcog.org/nctcg/media/Transportation/Committees/STTC/2021/presentations-apr.pdf?ext=.pdf

They are recommending the path of least resistance, which is along IH-30. Of course this is no surprise. On the plus side, the alignment is very straight. There will be some complications getting through the interchanges at SH 161 and SH 360, so some alternatives are shown in the map.

The study has also limited the technology options to traditional high speed rail and hyperloop.

I thought the southernmost blue option on page 86 would be better since the Arlington station would be closer to the stadiums and Six Flags. In addition, the abandoned baseball stadium would be an ideal station site.

Of course this project would be prohibitively expensive under normal conditions, and also have low ridership like all other rail lines in DFW. But in the new world of the federal government wanting to dump piles of money into public transit regardless of ridership, we can't rule out that this can actually move forward. However, the Biden "infrastructure" plan seems to have little or no money specifically earmarked for high speed rail or similar technologies.

[Bobby5280]

The study has also limited the technology options to traditional high speed rail and hyperloop.

That's a really stupid choice on their part. It appears they're only mapping out a regional rail system to hop between Dallas and Fort Worth. That's not nearly a far enough distance for a true high speed rail line, particularly if there are any stops at all in between. Even with a higher speed conventional rail system it takes a good amount of distance just to get to cruising speeds over 100mph. True high speed trains running at current cutting edge speeds of 200mph (or over 300kph) only reach those speeds running significant distances in rural areas between cities. Any stops along the way require their own distances to slow down and stop and then get back up to speed again.

I'm not the slightest bit optimistic Elon Musk's Hyperloop thing is ever going to get into commercial production. Aside from the insane costs to build it the thing is UGLY as hell. The thing looks like an elevated massive oil pipeline. I can just imagine the public revolts against a hyperloop line being built through an urban or suburban neighborhood (particularly any place with high property values). Most people are used to trains having things like windows. Riding in a hyperloop train would be a bit like traveling in a submarine. I can't see anyone with the slightest bit of claustrophobia wanting to ride in a hyperloop. I think the best case scenario for a Hyperloop would be building city to city lines where the stations are located on the city outskirts (like most airports). I see zero chance for one being built between Dallas and Fort Worth. The train would never get up to the hyped speeds. It would be like riding on an ordinary subway train that seems like it's underground when it's really above ground.

As for President Biden's "infrastructure" plan I think the thing is DOA unless they can work out some kind of compromise with GOP lawmakers. That doesn't seem likely at all. The GOP wants a much lower cost plan and far more of the emphasis on roads and bridges. The Biden plan is just all over the place, such as the plan to build out Broadband Internet all over rural areas. Residential Internet and phone access is a giant mess of many companies covering their own pieces of territory. And even if such a rural high speed network can be fully built out it would be a big waste of money. Small towns and rural areas are literally dying off. Young adults don't want to move to small towns for multiple obvious reasons and many businesses have their own cut-off point for city/town size requirements for them to build locations there.

[Stephane Dumas]

Why this reminds me of  "Supertrain" or "Monorail", the Simpsons one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUERtAe73NI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcJsgqfxU8

[Plutonic Panda]

HSR seems reasonable between Fort Worth and Dallas. If solely for the purposes of express trains between the two cities then I can see this being feasible. Yes many rail lines have low ridership in DFW but that is because Texas has a horrible mass transit system in general. It will take more lines and increase bus service to induce more ridership. One stop in Arlington would be okay as long as the station is directly in downtown and not on the freeway.

With that said, the fact this study includes hyperloop as an alternative makes me think this project is decades away. I suspect we'll have private real estate in space for sale by the time we see a real hyperloop network anywhere.

[sprjus4]

Considering acceleration and deceleration from low to high speeds, wouldn't having an intermediate stop in Arlington reduce the potential for such train to reach true higher speeds? Not against it, but would not work for high speed.

[Plutonic Panda]

Considering acceleration and deceleration from low to high speeds, wouldn't having an intermediate stop in Arlington reduce the potential for such train to reach true higher speeds? Not against it, but would not work for high speed.

If the average speed of the train is at least 120 MPH, then that is still a good thing. Could this not be achieved with a stop in Arlington? You could have an express system that bypasses Arlington every other train or so but I believe that'd be overkill here.

[Chris]

There is a high-speed rail in the Netherlands, where the Schiphol Airport - Rotterdam stretch is about the same distance as Dallas - Fort Worth. The high-speed train tops out at 300 km/h (185 mph), the regular express service at 160 km/h (100 mph). The travel time difference between those two is only 3 minutes.

[Plutonic Panda]

It looks like it currently takes the TRE almost an hour to get from Fort Worth to Dallas. It has several stations and IIRC it's highest speed is about 70MPH or so.

Schedule: https://trinityrailwayexpress.org/eastbound-weekday/

With a straighter track, less stations, and potentially double the average speed, it should cut down end to end travel times.

[OCGuy81]

Why this reminds me of  "Supertrain" or "Monorail", the Simpsons one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUERtAe73NI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcJsgqfxU8

Hey, that got the towns of Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook on the map!

[jadebenn]

The use of high speed rail technology could make sense if it plugs directly into the Texas Central project, as it'd provide seamless interoperability and help enable the future construction of a Texas triangle HSR network going between all the cities, but otherwise it's hard to see why the money wouldn't be better used for improvements to TRE. If they're pursuing this for commuter service, HSR makes absolutely no sense.

[Plutonic Panda]

The use of high speed rail technology could make sense if it plugs directly into the Texas Central project, as it'd provide seamless interoperability and help enable the future construction of a Texas triangle HSR network going between all the cities, but otherwise it's hard to see why the money wouldn't be better used for improvements to TRE. If they're pursuing this for commuter service, HSR makes absolutely no sense.

Yeah, I use the TRE quite often and it could definitely be improved. It would definitely be nice to have HSR to cut down but the money for that would better be spent on Texas triangle HSR. I'd be more than happy with 110MPH average speeds, improved stations(I mean real transit stations not glorified American bus shelters), and a liquor/snack bar on one of the cars.

[In_Correct]

Shopping Malls and Food Courts and Travel Facilities would also be nice. Make regular Train Stations as large as Hubs.

[MaxConcrete]

The City of Arlington is apparently trying to plan something substantial for the Arlington station. At last month's NCTCOG meeting, item 9 at 12:30 (https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/05132021-665), there was a discussion between Director Morris and the Arlington mayor, and Morris referred to a "proprietary situation" for which Arlington needed to cooperate with NCTCOG. Of course, Arlington has provided big money for the stadiums and it appears they're positioning to bring something big, and Arlington will surely be willing to contribute big money.

But I think this extension is still highly speculative. First, Texas Central between Houston and Dallas needs to proceed, and that's questionable due to escalating cost. Then funding needs to be found for the Dallas-to-Fort Worth connection. NCTCOG is very savvy about getting projects done one way or another, and they're probably getting the DFW link environmentally cleared so they can harvest federal money if and when the feds start directing money to high speed rail.

[jadebenn]

Shopping Malls and Food Courts and Travel Facilities would also be nice. Make regular Train Stations as large as Hubs.

A big improvement would be making the Forth Worth station not feel like a desert. Because I've seen videos of it, and it's the opposite of inviting. Dallas Union Station has its issues as well (especially that train passengers aren't actually allowed to use the actual building for some inscrutable reason), but it at least feels like you've been deposited in a city, and not a deserted parking lot a few blocks away from the city.

The City of Arlington is apparently trying to plan something substantial for the Arlington station. At last month's NCTCOG meeting, item 9 at 12:30 (https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/05132021-665), there was a discussion between Director Morris and the Arlington mayor, and Morris referred to a "proprietary situation" for which Arlington needed to cooperate with NCTCOG. Of course, Arlington has provided big money for the stadiums and it appears they're positioning to bring something big, and Arlington will surely be willing to contribute big money.

But I think this extension is still highly speculative. First, Texas Central between Houston and Dallas needs to proceed, and that's questionable due to escalating cost. Then funding needs to be found for the Dallas-to-Fort Worth connection. NCTCOG is very savvy about getting projects done one way or another, and they're probably getting the DFW link environmentally cleared so they can harvest federal money if and when the feds start directing money to high speed rail.

My read of it's that Arlington's been a big driving force behind this thing. They're the only ones not currently serviced by TRE, and they definitely have big plans for their new developments around Globelife stadium. Which, incidentally, are actually quite nice and walkable, with the downside being that they're isolated from the rest of the city by literal acres of parking lots. Not that Arlington has much density outside of the UTA area...

Still, I can't help but suspect that Arlington sees $$$ if they could hook those new developments up with the HSR to Houston. I just hope (but know better than to expect) that the municipal leadership realizes that using this to visit Arlington is not going to be very attractive option to those already living in Dallas and Fort Worth, and if that's their target customer base, then higher-speed commuter rail (possibly a branch from the TRE line, or a new alignment) would be much better-suited for their needs.

I doubt TCR is complaining, though. The way I bet they see this, is that they're getting the state to potentially fund some very expensive real-estate acquisition that they'll probably get some very favorable terms to lease and operate. Plus, it increases their catchment area to almost the entirety of the DFW metro. It's a win-win for them.

[Plutonic Panda]

Shopping Malls and Food Courts and Travel Facilities would also be nice. Make regular Train Stations as large as Hubs.

Indeed. More amenities and TOD.

[bwana39]

Shopping Malls and Food Courts and Travel Facilities would also be nice. Make regular Train Stations as large as Hubs.

A big improvement would be making the Forth Worth station not feel like a desert. Because I've seen videos of it, and it's the opposite of inviting. Dallas Union Station has its issues as well (especially that train passengers aren't actually allowed to use the actual building for some inscrutable reason), but it at least feels like you've been deposited in a city, and not a deserted parking lot a few blocks away from the city.

The City of Arlington is apparently trying to plan something substantial for the Arlington station. At last month's NCTCOG meeting, item 9 at 12:30 (https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/05132021-665), there was a discussion between Director Morris and the Arlington mayor, and Morris referred to a "proprietary situation" for which Arlington needed to cooperate with NCTCOG. Of course, Arlington has provided big money for the stadiums and it appears they're positioning to bring something big, and Arlington will surely be willing to contribute big money.

But I think this extension is still highly speculative. First, Texas Central between Houston and Dallas needs to proceed, and that's questionable due to escalating cost. Then funding needs to be found for the Dallas-to-Fort Worth connection. NCTCOG is very savvy about getting projects done one way or another, and they're probably getting the DFW link environmentally cleared so they can harvest federal money if and when the feds start directing money to high speed rail.

My read of it's that Arlington's been a big driving force behind this thing. They're the only ones not currently serviced by TRE, and they definitely have big plans for their new developments around Globelife stadium. Which, incidentally, are actually quite nice and walkable, with the downside being that they're isolated from the rest of the city by literal acres of parking lots. Not that Arlington has much density outside of the UTA area...

Still, I can't help but suspect that Arlington sees $$$ if they could hook those new developments up with the HSR to Houston. I just hope (but know better than to expect) that the municipal leadership realizes that using this to visit Arlington is not going to be very attractive option to those already living in Dallas and Fort Worth, and if that's their target customer base, then higher-speed commuter rail (possibly a branch from the TRE line, or a new alignment) would be much better-suited for their needs.

I doubt TCR is complaining, though. The way I bet they see this, is that they're getting the state to potentially fund some very expensive real-estate acquisition that they'll probably get some very favorable terms to lease and operate. Plus, it increases their catchment area to almost the entirety of the DFW metro. It's a win-win for them.

I think the NFL has said that DFW will not get another Super Bowl until there is convenient public transit available from at least Dallas and arguably Fort Worth.

Beyond this, Jerry (Jones) would absolutely love to bring the Olympics or the World Cup Final to Arlington.

[MaxConcrete]

The Texas Central high-speed rail project between Houston and Dallas appears to be dead.

https://thetexan.news/texas-central-high-speed-rail-ceo-carlos-aguilar-announces-departure/

The project was on life support in the last 6 months, with Texas Central reportedly not paying its bills. The recent inflation probably put the final nails in the coffin. Bids for large TxDOT projects are up around 33% in just the last few months. Texas Central was always too expensive to be financial feasible. Add another 33% to the cost and you can forget about it.

The rationale for the Dallas to Fort Worth link is greatly diminished without the connection to Texas Central. I'm thinking the in-progress study for the Dallas to Worth link will probably go on hold after its current phase is complete, and then eventually be forgotten.

[Plutonic Panda]

That is very unfortunate. I think this line would've been very successful as Texas relies way too much on cars for travel offering alternative would've been very appealing to people. It's a damn shame high speed rail is so hard to build in the states. We're the second richest country in the world and we can't even build a fucking modern train line or road tunnels. It's just comedy hour here.

[bwana39]

Texans depend too much on cars.

Houston to Dallas is further than Boston to NYC or Washington to NYC.

Austin is a little closer to Dallas and a good bit closer to Houston,

It isn't just we use our cars. We use them more. More miles on them , etc.

[The Ghostbuster]

I would prefer an express bus service to a rail line along the above-mentioned corridors. Also, I'm not bothered by Texas (or anywhere else) depending "too much"  on cars. People should use any mode of transportation that suits their needs.

[ethanhopkin14]

Why this reminds me of  "Supertrain" or "Monorail", the Simpsons one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUERtAe73NI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcJsgqfxU8

Hey, that got the towns of Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook on the map!

Yes sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bonified, electrified, six car monorail!

[Bobby5280]

Honestly, there are very few parts of the United States where it is practical at all to live without an automobile. It isn't just Texans who "depend too much on cars." The overwhelming majority of American adults need them.

The more I look at the concept of New Urbanism the more I believe it's just a bunch of nonsense based on a mix of fantasy and nostalgia. I'm not opposed to building passenger rail lines for commuters or long distance city to city service. However, costs of planning and building such lines has blown way out of control to obscene extremes. The United States has zero hope at all of ever building any modern high speed rail network covering the nation as long as the costs continue to worsen to even more stupid levels. That thing out in California is a national embarrassment. The failure of this Texas project is now the latest example to show Americans can't do true high speed rail.

Even if we could manage to build an effective passenger rail network with all the modern features, like 200mph speeds, the vast majority of Americans would still be stuck using automobiles. We can't build rail lines everywhere. Even in an old metro like New York City you don't have to travel too far outside the five boroughs to find cities and suburbs where one needs a vehicle for everyday life.

Metros like Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston (not to mention several other rapidly growing Texas cities) are all newer cities built mostly with streets and automobiles in mind. Attempts to reverse that, getting people to move closer to city centers, aren't working. Not only is the cost of building new subway or light rail lines too expensive, but there is the much bigger problem of housing costs. For true New Urbanism to work the neighborhoods need housing for every income class. The bosses and workers need to live close to each other. American style urban planning is the opposite of that. If only business owners and other high income people can afford to live downtown then the New Urbanism dream is a LIE.

[bwana39]

I would prefer an express bus service to a rail line along the above-mentioned corridors. Also, I'm not bothered by Texas (or anywhere else) depending "too much"  on cars. People should use any mode of transportation that suits their needs.

I am on your side about how much we use our cars. I am not a fan of the nanny state. Between my wife and i we drive over 80K a year.

There are multiple reasons why a " bullet train" is better than a bus (or busses).
Busses are subject to the same traffic issues that personal cars are affected by.  A bullet train on a dedicated or at least prioritized rail line is much less likely to be affected by traffic issues.
A true bullet train can go faster than a bus. 120 mph versus an average of around 70 mph.
The train can carry more passengers than a single bus.

Now for a bullet train to work it needs to be on fully grade separated tracks. That is the big holdup.  The expense is monstrous.

[Plutonic Panda]

Honestly, there are very few parts of the United States where it is practical at all to live without an automobile. It isn't just Texans who "depend too much on cars." The overwhelming majority of American adults need them.

Agreed, but it's not just about new urbanism or whether people can live without a car but rather offering an alternative for those that want it. And to me that's very important that we do so. There aren't very many places in the country either that I can honestly tell you that would justify spending billions on a train but Dallas to Houston is one of them in my opinion.

[longhorn]

The use of high speed rail technology could make sense if it plugs directly into the Texas Central project, as it'd provide seamless interoperability and help enable the future construction of a Texas triangle HSR network going between all the cities, but otherwise it's hard to see why the money wouldn't be better used for improvements to TRE. If they're pursuing this for commuter service, HSR makes absolutely no sense.

Texas Central CEO resigns and the management team is rumored to have done the same. Texas Central is sadly dead.............next.