AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules to ensure post quality. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: St. Louis freeways  (Read 110463 times)

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2405
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 34
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: December 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM
    • Flickr
St. Louis freeways
« on: June 21, 2009, 02:55:07 PM »

I noticed St. Louis has quite an extensive freeway system, especially outside the city proper, in the suburban area.

Some of them are quite oversized... Do they expect a huge increase of traffic?

For instance:

SR-364

AADT: 47,600 - 59,000
10 freaking lanes? Los Angeles has 300,000 AADT for such freeways.. Capacity for 10 lanes is around 250,000...


I-55

AADT: 107,000 - 125,000
Also 10 lanes... 6 would do pretty nice right now...


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a decent capacity on urban roads, but it looks like they get carried away a bit here...

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 07:56:08 PM by Scott5114 »
Logged

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2405
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 34
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: December 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM
    • Flickr
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 03:01:25 PM »

Another weird thing I noticed on I-64... This freeway is 6 lanes throughout this image, but somehow, traffic seems to disappear after the St. Louis county line... Weird, since there are no major interchanges or big office parks that are likely to absorb all that traffic. I work with AADT stats everyday, and this drop from 174,000 to 91,000 within a few miles is very strange.

Mergingtraffic

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1938
  • Location: NYC-CT
  • Last Login: November 28, 2021, 07:24:59 PM
    • My Flickr alias: MergingTraffic
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 05:53:49 PM »

that's great that they have wide roads....which means when the traffic does come they don't have as many worries. 
Maybe the pic was taken during an off-peak time?
In CT we would gladly trade our freeways for St. Louis' freeways.  Here there is too much NIMBYism. 
St. Louis also uses the design-build model to construct highways faster.
Logged
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

agentsteel53

  • invisible hand
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 15374
  • long live button copy!

  • Age: 40
  • Location: San Diego, CA
  • Last Login: November 21, 2016, 09:58:39 AM
    • AARoads Shield Gallery
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 06:20:13 PM »

whatever Missouri is using to vanish 100,000 cars - is that available in portable format, so I can install that on my car's front bumper and instantly get rid of any traffic I encounter?
Logged
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 07:11:40 PM »

The rightmost lanes on MO 364 usually are auxiliary lanes, though I think it was designed to generally be restriped to 10 through lanes in the future.  Right now MO 364 doesn't get that much traffic since it is fairly new and currently bottlenecked by the cloverleaf with I-270.  That interchange however will see work start on a two lane NB-WB flyover next year.

I-55 was six lanes between MO 141 and just north of US 50-61-67/Lindbergh Blvd until the mid 1990s when that section was widened to 10 lanes between MO 141 and Butler Hill Rd (Exit 195), 8 plus 2 auxiliary lanes between Butler Hill and I-270/I-255, and 8 plus 8 C-D lanes between I-270/I-255 and US 50-61-67.

I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes  - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.

Regarding the ADT weirdness on US 40, I don't believe that 10,000 vehicles leave the highway west of I-170 at McKnight either.

There were many days though I would trade narrower freeways for the unbuilt routes around St. Louis:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=117499567522166489363.00000111c8b66c033b8ea&ll=38.648115,-90.199299&spn=0.061671,0.118618&z=13

Regarding the number of lanes on freeways, I-80 through Omaha is usually eight through lanes plus two auxiliary lanes.  The I-80/I-29 overlap in Congested Bluffs will soon be widened to 3x3x3x3:
http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment2.asp
http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment3.asp

Logged

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2405
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 34
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: December 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM
    • Flickr
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 02:26:44 PM »

About SR-364, I've read that the Sierra Club was a big opponent of this freeway. Maybe MoDOT thought; "if we don't do it good now, we are never gonna be able to widen it in the future".

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 05:06:48 PM »

About SR-364, I've read that the Sierra Club was a big opponent of this freeway. Maybe MoDOT thought; "if we don't do it good now, we are never gonna be able to widen it in the future".

MO 364 is probably the most recent major controversial highway facility to survive cancellation around St. Louis.  I'd say the most controversial highway ever except that US 40 had a gap for many years between Brentwood and Skinker due to opposition, I believe I-44 came close to cancellation inside I-270, and even the built part of I-170 was fairly controversial - but some of that came from proposals to use tolls to finish and a dispute between St. Louis County and MoDOT's predecessor agency over which part to complete first.

The main issues with MO 364 were:

1) The selected routing through Creve Couer County Park - although given the park expansion and heavily used trail following MO 364 across the Missouri River that was built as part of the deal, I have to wonder if the routing was really so bad.

2) The urban sprawl issue - although after spending many years in part of St. Louis County and given the crime, poor schools, and earnings tax of St. Louis City, I can't blame people for heading out to the next ring of counties.

3) The large cost - I recall some saying that the given price tag didn't include improvements to the I-270 interchange.  There was also controversy about the highway taking funding away from other projects.

The early plans for what evolved into MO 370 had the highway - then an expressway instead of a freeway - continuing south to recross the Missouri River close to where US 40 descends into the Chesterfield Valley.  Today I think the next new Missouri River bridges in the area will be:

1) A new bridge for EB US 40, with the existing EB bridge for WB US 40, and the current WB bridge for the Chesterfield Airport Road entrance and possibly a bike lane.

2) A new bridge or two for the "Corridors of the Future" Truck lanes, mostly likely involving two new bridge for MO 370 - I don't see making 370 one general purpose lane or taking lanes away from I-70 going over too well, given the thoughts over converting a general purpose lane or two to HOV lanes.

3) A replacement for one of the Blanchette/I-70 bridges.
Logged

WISFreeways

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 72
  • Last Login: October 22, 2020, 07:52:16 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2009, 03:27:55 PM »

Looks like Forest Park is a major landmark then   :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:
Logged
2009-era me chose this generic username...

poundsdwayne47

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1
  • Dwayne Pounds

  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florissant, MO
  • Last Login: November 15, 2009, 12:57:10 AM
    • Kristen Cornett - Our Favorite Meteorologist
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 12:55:53 AM »

Looks like Forest Park is a major landmark then   :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

What about Interstate 55 :clap:
Logged
Dwayne Pounds

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 04:42:52 PM »

Came across a map today in a 1967 St. Louis County report that showed the Page Avenue Extension extended down to the I-44/MO 109 interchange in Eureka (the old one at the Central overpass, not the current one today where MO 109 goes under I-44).

Interestingly, this map showed the Inner Belt splitting near the north end, with one half being the currently built alignment and the other route looping over along an abandoned railroad grade to end at Riverview Blvd next to the Mississippi.  The southern extension of the Inner Belt was also shown crossing I-44 near the Edgar Road overpass.

I'm really disappointed at the job MoDOT did rebuilding I-70 from I-170 to near downtown.   The corridor needed a few more revisions, and I really wonder if keeping the reversible lanes was a good idea.  There should also be more advanced signage letting out of towners know about the availability of the express lanes, and the express lanes really need to be posted higher than 55 for having one entrance/exit for their length.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 12:41:33 AM »

Came across a couple more dead freeway proposals for the St. Louis area; source article is "Tax Hike Would Fuel Bridge, City Parkway - Fund Boost Would Help Other Area Projects" St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 1-10-1992, accessed via library database.  Bridge mentioned in title is what became the new Mississippi bridge planned for I-70.

* MO 79, freeway from Rte M to the relocated MO 47 Outer Outer Outer Belt freeway.  Route 79 was also supposed to be an expressway to the Lincoln County line.

* MO 100, freeway from I-44 to Washington (currently being widened to four lanes divided)

There's also mention of adding lanes on I-44 from the Crawford County line to a MO 100 interchange, and on I-70 from the Warren County line to US 61.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2010, 05:04:30 PM »

As of today, the MO 21/Blood Alley replacement freeway in Jefferson County has 2/10 mileposts with the route shield.  Surprising that this route has them yet MO 370 does not.
Logged

shoptb1

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 524
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Columbus, OH
  • Last Login: July 06, 2020, 11:07:10 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2010, 06:51:24 PM »

I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes  - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.

Can someone please provide ODOT with this "revised formula"?  :-))
Logged

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2405
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 34
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: December 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM
    • Flickr
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2010, 03:53:46 AM »

I know a freeway that has 120,000 on 4 lanes.

100,000 on 8 lanes is pretty generous. That would mean almost no congestion. I also know a freeway that has 200,000 on 8 lanes.

There are some rules of the thumb;

between 2,000 and 2,400 is the capacity of a lane per hour. (not in optimal situations, where it's closer to 1,500). Count the lanes, multiply it by ~2,200 and then multiply it by 10 (or 12 in very urban areas), and bam, you've got yourself the upper limit.

For instance a 4-lane freeway = 4*2200*10 = 88,000 AADT. These are not congestion-free values though. I think ideally, 70,000 is the upper limit for 4 lanes.

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 11:45:27 PM »

The I-55 to I-70 connector under the west end of the PSB was closed today due to concrete falling from one of the bridges in the interchange:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/story/C64FF727F21D98D1862576BC0079F253?OpenDocument
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 06:57:01 PM »

Found a study with projected 2030 volumes for roads in St. Charles County (Project volume tables start on Page 144/145):
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/StChasTransPlan/StChasTransPlan2030.pdf

Note that these projections are based on MO 364 not being completed out to I-64.

EDIT:  And now found one with traffic projections for Jefferson County (Projections on Page 122/124):
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/jeffcotransplan-feb2008.pdf

Interesting that I-55 will probably need to be widened again in the northern part of the county.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 12:45:13 PM by Revive 755 »
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2010, 04:44:20 PM »

Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 12:47:54 PM »

A MoDOT employee stated in a Post-Dispatch column today that MoDOT will not seek interstate designations for MO 370 and MO 364:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/alongfortheride/story/3D23411649D7CFBD862576E7000BBC0C?OpenDocument

IMHO, MoDOT should make MO 370 into an interstate, or at least sign it better as a freeway grade bypass of I-70.  Right now the only thing indicating anything special about MO 370 on EB I-70 is the number of lanes for the exit:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.798312,-90.597275&spn=0,359.972534&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.798311,-90.597159&panoid=_AnKYUI9SeQMQbVR_fiTMQ&cbp=12,82.11,,0,3.38

MO 370 really should have a control city of Indianapolis there.
Logged

shoptb1

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 524
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Columbus, OH
  • Last Login: July 06, 2020, 11:07:10 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 01:15:41 PM »

MO 370 really should have a control city of Indianapolis there.

From the location, that would make sense.  This seems like a strange freeway to me...is this the "St Charles Bypass"?  Of course, it seems that St Louis has enough freeway lanes to go around for everyone.  MoDOT has done a great job in getting capacity for this city.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 11:46:38 PM »

^ Except for I-70 near downtown St. Louis; it has been backing up regularly in the afternoon from the end of the express lanes back to around or beyond the McKinley Bridge, even before the afternoon rush hour.  Yes, having the express lanes closed probably doesn't help, but they would normally be set for outbound (WB) traffic in the afternoon.  The new river bridge for I-70 should take care of this congestion, in theory.

As for MO 370, it is was apparently intended more as a "Blanchette Bridge Bypass," as it seems to first appear in transportation plans for St. Louis after the realization sunk in that another bridge besides Page Avenue's (which appears to have been actually planned first, but constructed later) was needed to relieve I-70 (and this was when Page Avenue was to connect to I-70 at the MO 79 interchange).  Problem with MO 370 is it doesn't go far enough west - it needed to at least make it west to MO 79, instead of ending at a point where all E-W traffic must funnel back onto I-70 (there's few E-W roads north of I-70 until west of MO 79, between MO 79 and MO 370 there's really only I-70's north outer road and Salt River Road, which pass through a congested (I think) intersection with Mid Rivers Mall Drive.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2010, 03:49:11 PM »

I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes  - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.

Can someone please provide ODOT with this "revised formula"?  :-))

The St. Louis Area Transportation Study:  Streets Highways & Transit by IDOT, the Missouri State Highway Commission, and East-West Gateway (the area MPO) in 1971 has a table on Page 23 with the general capacity in "vehicles per lane per day"  for a freeway at 12,000.  Expressway capacity in the table is 9,000 vplpd.  I'm pretty sure the numbers were revised upwards in later years.

The study also marks the demise of an a freeway or expressway generally near the Kingshighway corridor in St. Louis that would connect I-55 near the Loughboro interchange to I-70 around Kingshighway;  possibly a eparate route was to extend north to Alton along the US 67 (now mostly MO 367) corridor.  The Kinghshighway route was to be replaced with a high design mass transit facility.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 08:22:48 PM »

Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4447
  • Last Login: December 07, 2021, 10:26:45 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2010, 04:50:44 PM »

One of the cost cutting measures for the I-64 rebuild is showing signs of failure already.  At the I-64 interchange with Brentwood, traffic exiting eastbound I-64 and going north on Brentwood Boulevard was getting blocked by the light on Brentwood for westbound I-64's outer road, and backing up into the intersection.  This was causing problems for traffic on southbound Brentwood.  The original SPUI design for this interchange would not have had this problem.

Google map of the interchange for reference:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.62977,-90.345442&spn=0.002913,0.006866&z=18

Also, the loop ramp from southbound I-270 to eastbound I-44 has returned to a single lane.  As of today there are now white posts separating the exit only lane from the rest of the mainlanes.
Logged

ShawnP

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 747
  • Last Login: December 30, 2018, 12:48:31 AM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2010, 02:48:05 AM »

You mean another project Pete Rahn stuck his nose in and left worse off. I am not and I mean not a fan of the outgoing MODOT chief who left alot of very poorly built projects with his let's cheap projects to get more projects in management style. For instance look at the repaving project on I-435 in Kansas City from I-29 to US-169 which was done in 2008 on the cheap and is already falling apart badly and requires a redo in 2012 (basically millions thrown away).
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7255
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 12:36:31 PM
Re: St. Louis freeways
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2010, 04:08:25 AM »

You mean another project Pete Rahn stuck his nose in and left worse off. I am not and I mean not a fan of the outgoing MODOT chief who left alot of very poorly built projects with his let's cheap projects to get more projects in management style. For instance look at the repaving project on I-435 in Kansas City from I-29 to US-169 which was done in 2008 on the cheap and is already falling apart badly and requires a redo in 2012 (basically millions thrown away).

You have an insider's eye into "Practical Design"?
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.