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Future of I-72 in Missouri?

Started by jhuntin1, December 11, 2014, 09:40:14 PM

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sprjus4



Interstate Carl

MoDOT has recently taken a study to see what a US 61 bypass around Hannibal would look like. While it is still in its early stages of development, feedback was positive, and this might give potential reason to extend 72 west by just a few miles?? A few years back, it was proposed for 72 to be extended to the US 24 exit. Assuming US 61 also gets routed to follow that exit, it could serve as a better end to Interstate 72 (at least for now).


Side note: At the same exit, there is a random Interstate 72 shield, despite the fact that 72 ends 6 miles east of the exit.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6941935,-91.5048873,3a,26.1y,5.1h,92.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKmTR4dvnjvtmzk7pQUXPvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



This image demonstrates what the bypass may look like.
Interstates Traveled (Partial & Complete): I-29, I-35, I-39, I-40, I-44, I-49, I-55, I-57, I-64, I-65, I-68, I-70, I-72, I-74, I-77, I-81, I-90, I-95

The Ghostbuster

I think the 72 designation should go to the US 24 interchange. Is that 6-mile stretch fully up to Interstate Standards?

Interstate Carl

Yes I believe it is. The only thing left for MoDOT to do is increase the speed limit in the rural parts to 70MPH, as well as numbering these exits:

- Veterans Road (Exit 154)
- Shinn Lane (Exit 153)
- US 24 (Exit 149, the exit that may hold future 61)

The only other issue I could find was the Bear Creek Bridge, which doesn't have adequate shoulder room.  :-/
Interstates Traveled (Partial & Complete): I-29, I-35, I-39, I-40, I-44, I-49, I-55, I-57, I-64, I-65, I-68, I-70, I-72, I-74, I-77, I-81, I-90, I-95

sprjus4

Quote from: Interstate Carl on March 26, 2023, 03:33:07 PM
The only thing left for MoDOT to do is increase the speed limit in the rural parts to 70MPH
Unless MoDOT increases the speed limit to 70 mph along the entire highway between Hannibal and I-35 (which they should), I don't see them raising for just a few miles on the freeway part only.

Interstate Carl

Quote
Unless MoDOT increases the speed limit to 70 mph along the entire highway between Hannibal and I-35 (which they should), I don't see them raising for just a few miles on the freeway part only.

It is absolutely a good idea, but MoDOT wouldn't do it for the life of themselves. :banghead:
Interstates Traveled (Partial & Complete): I-29, I-35, I-39, I-40, I-44, I-49, I-55, I-57, I-64, I-65, I-68, I-70, I-72, I-74, I-77, I-81, I-90, I-95

3467

Shared 4 is a Missouri term for alternating passing lanes.

edwaleni

Quote from: Interstate Carl on March 26, 2023, 04:36:44 PM
Quote
Unless MoDOT increases the speed limit to 70 mph along the entire highway between Hannibal and I-35 (which they should), I don't see them raising for just a few miles on the freeway part only.

It is absolutely a good idea, but MoDOT wouldn't do it for the life of themselves. :banghead:

Too many rural cross roads. People already driving 70+ today with the current posting.

From a planning and liability perspective, I am not surprised they are keeping it down.


sprjus4

Quote from: edwaleni on March 26, 2023, 10:51:27 PM
Too many rural cross roads.
What are the traffic volumes on them? How much conflict exists between US-36 and the side streets?

QuotePeople already driving 70+ today with the current posting.
Raising a speed limit isn't going to cause people to drive 5-10 mph faster. It's been proven time and time again it would bring it more in line with the 85th percentile speeds and at most speeds would go up 1-2 mph on average.

How come the highways to the capital can have a 70 mph limit, but not US-36? Politically motivated much?
Quote
From a planning and liability perspective, I am not surprised they are keeping it down.
A speed study would help determine the best speed for the road. A 70 mph limit would make it a more attractive alternative given it would boast the same speed as I-70.

skluth

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 24, 2023, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: skluth on March 24, 2023, 10:44:12 AM
CKC is a joke. It's not even the fastest way going west from Chicago as it follows I-88 and not I-80 to get to the I-74/80 interchange SE of the Quad Cities. Appropriately for that part of the country, it's a whole lotta pork.
Between downtown Chicago and the I-74/I-80 interchange, I-88 is 163 miles, and I-55 / I-80 is 162 miles. That segment isn't the problem.

It is when a large portion of the I-88 segment is tolled as opposed to the untolled I-80 segment.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Interstate Carl on March 26, 2023, 03:02:07 PM

This image demonstrates what the bypass may look like.

Gotta go with that furthest west option.  Mostly because there's already a footprint for a full cloverleaf at US 36 and US 24, so that'll be way more economical.  In addition to that, it keeps the highway up on the plateau so there's no real terrain to deal with.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

sprjus4

Quote from: skluth on March 27, 2023, 11:51:15 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 24, 2023, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: skluth on March 24, 2023, 10:44:12 AM
CKC is a joke. It's not even the fastest way going west from Chicago as it follows I-88 and not I-80 to get to the I-74/80 interchange SE of the Quad Cities. Appropriately for that part of the country, it's a whole lotta pork.
Between downtown Chicago and the I-74/I-80 interchange, I-88 is 163 miles, and I-55 / I-80 is 162 miles. That segment isn't the problem.

It is when a large portion of the I-88 segment is tolled as opposed to the untolled I-80 segment.
But having a toll doesn't make it any slower, as you initially claimed. I-88 may be a useful alternative if I-80 is ever congested.

edwaleni

Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 27, 2023, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: Interstate Carl on March 26, 2023, 03:02:07 PM

This image demonstrates what the bypass may look like.

Gotta go with that furthest west option.  Mostly because there's already a footprint for a full cloverleaf at US 36 and US 24, so that'll be way more economical.  In addition to that, it keeps the highway up on the plateau so there's no real terrain to deal with.

One of the center routes follows a former Burlington (CB&Q) rail ROW that connected Palmyra and downtown Hannibal.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: edwaleni on March 27, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
One of the center routes follows a former Burlington (CB&Q) rail ROW that connected Palmyra and downtown Hannibal.

I noticed that.  And that would be my second choice if I'm denied my "preferred alternative".  It also has the advantage of fewer agricultural impacts than the western alignment I like.  Seems like that will be part of the conversation in that area.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

abqtraveler

Quote from: codyg1985 on January 20, 2015, 06:50:54 AM
Quote from: bugo on January 20, 2015, 02:39:30 AM
Quote from: Gnutella on January 19, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
If they ever upgrade U.S. 36 to I-72 in Missouri, then it needs to end at I-29, not I-35. That way, St. Joseph will be served by two Interstates.

One thing that needs to be done regardless is for the highway to be graded properly, especially in Linn County. Linn County widened U.S. 36 before anyplace else in northern Missouri, but all they did was build a new set of lanes alongside the original alignment, so they ended up with the new set of lanes being properly graded and relatively flat while the original alignment followed the lay of the land. The most glaring example of this is between Marceline and the Macon County line, where the westbound lanes are nice and flat, but the eastbound lanes are a roller coaster. There's a similar effect on U.S. 63 in Macon County between Macon and the Randolph County line, though the lay of the land there isn't quite as dissected as it is in eastern Linn County.

Basically, MoDOT needs to eliminate the roller coaster rides on some of their four-lane highways.

That's the classic "Missouri Expressway".

Or Virginia Twinning, as it is also known.

Alabama also did that along US 72 between Scottsboro and Stevenson. And Mississippi did it along US 72 between Corinth and Burnsville.
And along US-49 from Jackson through Hattiesburg, to Gulfport.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

sprjus4

Hence the name "Virginia Twinning"  - Virginia is notorious for this all across the state, which leads to a lack of high quality expressways in terms of cross section... a lot of 60 mph divided highways do exist crisscrossing the state which is useful - but there is no high standard. Roller coaster rides, no shoulders, blind curves / hills, etc.

Not all are bad though - many are still alright. US-460 between Roanoke and Petersburg, for example, is largely smooth, though a few areas do exist with lots of short hills. The area around Lynchburg gets quite crowded outside the limited access portion, and ought to be fully upgraded some miles both east and west to full freeway and rebuilt geometry.

Newer editions do feature a full rebuild to create a proper cross section with shoulders, higher design speed (in theory - still limited to 60 mph posted by law), gentler corners, etc. See new portions of US-58. Most divided highways were constructed in the 1960s - 1970s though, so the new editions are few and far in between.

hbelkins

I think I'm the originator of that term "Virginia Twinning," back on MTR.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

kphoger

Quote from: hbelkins on March 29, 2023, 12:23:39 PM
I think I'm the originator of that term "Virginia Twinning," back on MTR.

Sounds like something a redneck might be accused of...
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SD Mapman

Quote from: abqtraveler on March 28, 2023, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on January 20, 2015, 06:50:54 AM
Quote from: bugo on January 20, 2015, 02:39:30 AM
Quote from: Gnutella on January 19, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
If they ever upgrade U.S. 36 to I-72 in Missouri, then it needs to end at I-29, not I-35. That way, St. Joseph will be served by two Interstates.

One thing that needs to be done regardless is for the highway to be graded properly, especially in Linn County. Linn County widened U.S. 36 before anyplace else in northern Missouri, but all they did was build a new set of lanes alongside the original alignment, so they ended up with the new set of lanes being properly graded and relatively flat while the original alignment followed the lay of the land. The most glaring example of this is between Marceline and the Macon County line, where the westbound lanes are nice and flat, but the eastbound lanes are a roller coaster. There's a similar effect on U.S. 63 in Macon County between Macon and the Randolph County line, though the lay of the land there isn't quite as dissected as it is in eastern Linn County.

Basically, MoDOT needs to eliminate the roller coaster rides on some of their four-lane highways.

That's the classic "Missouri Expressway".

Or Virginia Twinning, as it is also known.

Alabama also did that along US 72 between Scottsboro and Stevenson. And Mississippi did it along US 72 between Corinth and Burnsville.
And along US-49 from Jackson through Hattiesburg, to Gulfport.
SD has a stretch of I-90 like that between Wall and Cactus Flat. I was hoping they'd do regrades when the time came to repave the road but they opted for the cheapskate option of asphalt paving as-is.
The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton

skluth

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 27, 2023, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 27, 2023, 11:51:15 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 24, 2023, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: skluth on March 24, 2023, 10:44:12 AM
CKC is a joke. It's not even the fastest way going west from Chicago as it follows I-88 and not I-80 to get to the I-74/80 interchange SE of the Quad Cities. Appropriately for that part of the country, it's a whole lotta pork.
Between downtown Chicago and the I-74/I-80 interchange, I-88 is 163 miles, and I-55 / I-80 is 162 miles. That segment isn't the problem.

It is when a large portion of the I-88 segment is tolled as opposed to the untolled I-80 segment.
But having a toll doesn't make it any slower, as you initially claimed. I-88 may be a useful alternative if I-80 is ever congested.
Minimally longer is still longer. Add in the toll, especially for those who don't have Illinois-compatible transponders, it takes even more time. Be as pedantic as you want, it doesn't change that CKC is longer.

sprjus4

Quote from: skluth on March 31, 2023, 12:19:37 PM
Minimally longer is still longer.
That's immediately from downtown Chicago. It could easily vary depending on where in the entire metropolitan area you're coming from. For some, I-80 might be 5 or 10 more miles. I-88 can't just be thrown out as any viable west route.

QuoteAdd in the toll, especially for those who don't have Illinois-compatible transponders, it takes even more time.
This would be true for some, yes. Illinois is compatible with E-ZPass, so for local traffic westbound, or anyone east, it wouldn't add anything. It could be problematic for states like Kansas, which is an issue I agree, and more reason E-ZPass needs to become interoperable with the Kansas-Oklahoma-Texas system.

QuoteBe as pedantic as you want, it doesn't change that CKC is longer.
I completely agree for south of the Quad Cities. But the portion between Chicago and the Quad Cities is a 50/50 tossup between I-80 and I-88. They are both perfectly viable routes that provide similar travel times and redundancy to each other. Yes, I-80 may be the preferred simply due to no toll, but once accident, I-88 is the way to go. For someone living closer to the I-88 corridor, I-80 is out of the way. There's no one "best"  option overall. Obviously for long-haul traffic, I-80 avoids the city so it's the best route, but for traffic originating in the metropolitan area, you can't just dismiss I-88.

kphoger

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 31, 2023, 01:39:03 PM
This would be true for some, yes. Illinois is compatible with E-ZPass, so for local traffic westbound, or anyone east, it wouldn't add anything. It could be problematic for states like Kansas, which is an issue I agree, and more reason E-ZPass needs to become interoperable with the Kansas-Oklahoma-Texas system.

For what it's worth...  I live in Kansas and, when I've considered driving to the west suburbs of Chicago, the only two routes I've ever really considered are I-35→US-36→I-55 and I-35→I-80→I-88.  With cash tolls going bye-bye in Illinois, I stopped considering the latter.  Even with a likely destination in the Glen Ellyn area or the O'Hare area, I would use Route 53 or Route 83 to make my way north from I-55.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

DJStephens

#172
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2023, 01:46:55 AM
   Hence the name "Virginia Twinning"  - Virginia is notorious for this all across the state, which leads to a lack of high quality expressways in terms of cross section... a lot of 60 mph divided highways do exist crisscrossing the state which is useful - but there is no high standard. Roller coaster rides, no shoulders, blind curves / hills, etc.
   Newer editions do feature a full rebuild to create a proper cross section with shoulders, higher design speed (in theory - still limited to 60 mph posted by law), gentler corners, etc. See new portions of US-58. Most divided highways were constructed in the 1960s - 1970s though, so the new editions are few and far in between.
There is? currently a "twinning" project on US - 58 in western of Virginia, is there not?  Did recently view a You Tube video on it, the video portrayed early stages, of clearing and grubbing.  Hard to tell if they were going to go with a full 60 foot median and higher standards.  Aside from improved horizontal and vertical curvatures.  Guessing no access control or interchanges are planned on the stretch, am guessing vehicle counts are too low.   

sprjus4

Quote from: DJStephens on April 02, 2023, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2023, 01:46:55 AM
   Hence the name "Virginia Twinning"  - Virginia is notorious for this all across the state, which leads to a lack of high quality expressways in terms of cross section... a lot of 60 mph divided highways do exist crisscrossing the state which is useful - but there is no high standard. Roller coaster rides, no shoulders, blind curves / hills, etc.
   Newer editions do feature a full rebuild to create a proper cross section with shoulders, higher design speed (in theory - still limited to 60 mph posted by law), gentler corners, etc. See new portions of US-58. Most divided highways were constructed in the 1960s - 1970s though, so the new editions are few and far in between.
There is? currently a "twinning" project on US - 58 in western of Virginia, is there not?  Did recently view a You Tube video on it, the video portrayed early stages, of clearing and grubbing.  Hard to tell if they were going to go with a full 60 foot median and higher standards.  Aside from improved horizontal and vertical curvatures.  Guessing no access control or interchanges are planned on the stretch, am guessing vehicle counts are too low.   
There is currently a project ongoing to widen 7.4 miles of US-58 over Lovers Leap, yes. It will not be up to full standards, median width will be around 18 ft and will vary between either paved with a barrier, or a raised curb and gutter in some areas. One middle section will feature a "split roadway"  where the existing roadway will become one direction, and a new alignment will be the other direction.

Outside shoulder widths will vary from 4 to 8 ft.

The eastern side of the project, outside the mountain, it will be a paved 4 ft median with no barrier... basically no median. Just four lanes divided by a yellow line. I'm not sure why they wouldn't even go with a center turn lane.

Reduced design standards were definitely used on this particular project. Segments of US-58 to the west were widened / relocated around 10 years ago and have a typical section of 8 ft paved outside shoulders, 4 ft paved inside shoulders, and a 40 ft grassy median. They are posted at 60 mph and can easily be traversed at 70 mph. This mountain segment will probably be 45-55 mph and more designed toward its speed.

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/salem/route-58-widening---lovers-leap-in-patrick-county-ppta-project.asp

Interstate Carl

Good news for this situation:
MoDOT has officially approved a 2.5 million dollar study that would extend I-72 all the way to Saint Joseph. Nothing is confirmed yet (and if you ask me, nothing will probably come of this, at least any time soon), but this is good news for those rooting for 72's extension.

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/missouri-new-interstate
Interstates Traveled (Partial & Complete): I-29, I-35, I-39, I-40, I-44, I-49, I-55, I-57, I-64, I-65, I-68, I-70, I-72, I-74, I-77, I-81, I-90, I-95



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