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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: bing101 on January 13, 2018, 11:44:08 PM

Title: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 13, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
http://khon2.com/2018/01/13/missile-threat-text-alert-was-an-error-no-threat-to-hawaii/


http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/37259684/ballistic-missile-threat-alert-sent-to-hawaii-phones-was-a-mistake


Well this incident in Hawaii has caused panic in the state. If you were on the roads when this happened then you would be in a sense of Panic.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 14, 2018, 12:36:31 AM
It's not the first time. A major false alarm occurred in February, 1971 with the keyword HATEFULNESS (http://markholtz.info/ebs1971). You can listen to the WOWO audio from that date (http://markholtz.info/ebs1971audio).
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Hurricane Rex on January 14, 2018, 01:49:02 AM
I was worried when I first heard it but when I heard the false alarm and the reason why, I was laughing histerically.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: jakeroot on January 14, 2018, 04:04:13 AM
I have several friends who live in Hawaii (on the big island). They were all running to be with loved ones, since most people don't have shelter. As far as they knew, their world was ending.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Stephane Dumas on January 14, 2018, 07:58:22 AM
I was worried when I first heard it but when I heard the false alarm and the reason why, I was laughing histerically.

If these false alarms occur more often, the trouble is when it'll be real, people will think then it's just another false alarm and it ends like the tale of the boy who cried wolf.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: english si on January 14, 2018, 08:58:25 AM
If these false alarms occur more often, the trouble is when it'll be real, people will think then it's just another false alarm and it ends like the tale of the boy who cried wolf.
Given we're talking nukes, it's not really a wolf one can protect yourself from. Hiding under desks at school, Protect and Survive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_and_Survive), etc wouldn't actually work. Being blissfully unaware is probably a good thing - you don't really want a panic created.

When, aged around 9, my classmates and I became aware of the notion of nuclear war and how, when we were little it was a very very real threat, we all decided that the best thing to do was to try and get closer to Central London (or, when we were a little older, RAF Northolt, as it was where Strike Command was then said to be based* and it was closer) as being vaporised would be better than dying more slowly of radiation poisoning. It was so blatantly obvious, even to us children, that the whole point of talking about warnings and what to do were to give reassurance then, not because it would work. It was like when someone says "go on, it won't hurt" to get you to do something that will hurt you.

*Little did we know that it was actually the closer RAF High Wycombe - the cunning plan that foxed the Germans in WW2 (to have a major RAF base (Bomber Command) hidden in some woods in a hilly area - they never found it) continued to work as we didn't even know about it. It was also NATO's 'Headquarters Allied Forces North Western Europe' as well as the place where all the strategic air stuff was based. It had the bunker that could transmit the emergency '4 minute warning'. And yes, 4 minutes was all we would have had, so plans to run towards the blast would have been silly too. Perhaps the Soviets also didn't know about it either.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: oscar on January 14, 2018, 09:28:59 AM
Given we're talking nukes, it's not really a wolf one can protect yourself from. Hiding under desks at school, Protect and Survive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_and_Survive), etc wouldn't actually work. Being blissfully unaware is probably a good thing - you don't really want a panic created.

The "protect and survive" stuff may have run its course in the U.S. by the time I was old enough to be aware of it. Or maybe I didn't see any of it because I lived most of my childhood on or near major military bases (my father was a Marine), each of which was almost certainly high on any nuclear strike target lists.

My first exposure to "duck and cover" in the U.S. w/r/t nuclear attacks (it's still relevant for earthquakes) was the mock Civil Defense posters I saw in college, ending with something like "Put your head firmly between your thighs | Then kiss your ass goodbye".

I have several friends who live in Hawaii (on the big island). They were all running to be with loved ones, since most people don't have shelter. As far as they knew, their world was ending.

Of course, the Big Island is short on military facilities that might be nuclear strike targets, and is far from the most obvious target (Pearl Harbor, several islands and more than 150 miles away). But the Big Island has repeaters for Honolulu TV stations, so it would be hard to focus a legitimate alert on just one part of the state.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2018, 11:07:14 AM
I was worried when I first heard it but when I heard the false alarm and the reason why, I was laughing histerically.

If these false alarms occur more often, the trouble is when it'll be real, people will think then it's just another false alarm and it ends like the tale of the boy who cried wolf.

If a nuclear missile is heading your way likely it isn’t going to matter if you have warning or not.  On an island there is definitely no way you would be able get away from the blast radius.  On land even if you got out of the blast area you’d still would probably get doused with fallout.  Missiles with multiple warheads probably would just wipe out a major city leaving no chance of escape. 
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: US71 on January 14, 2018, 11:29:32 AM
I have several friends who live in Hawaii (on the big island). They were all running to be with loved ones, since most people don't have shelter. As far as they knew, their world was ending.

I heard the Prez said this was a test.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: michravera on January 14, 2018, 11:40:29 AM
Given we're talking nukes, it's not really a wolf one can protect yourself from. Hiding under desks at school, Protect and Survive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_and_Survive), etc wouldn't actually work. Being blissfully unaware is probably a good thing - you don't really want a panic created.

The "protect and survive" stuff may have run its course in the U.S. by the time I was old enough to be aware of it. Or maybe I didn't see any of it because I lived most of my childhood on or near major military bases (my father was a Marine), each of which was almost certainly high on any nuclear strike target lists.

My first exposure to "duck and cover" in the U.S. w/r/t nuclear attacks (it's still relevant for earthquakes) was the mock Civil Defense posters I saw in college, ending with something like "Put your head firmly between your thighs | Then kiss your ass goodbye".

I have several friends who live in Hawaii (on the big island). They were all running to be with loved ones, since most people don't have shelter. As far as they knew, their world was ending.

Of course, the Big Island is short on military facilities that might be nuclear strike targets, and is far from the most obvious target (Pearl Harbor, several islands and more than 150 miles away). But the Big Island has repeaters for Honolulu TV stations, so it would be hard to focus a legitimate alert on just one part of the state.

If a missile had come from the Chinese or the Russians, The Big Island would not be in much danger for exactly the reasons that you state. We are pretty sure that the Russians and the Chinese will hit that at which they are aiming, if we don't figure out how to shoot it down first. If North Korea had launched it, the fear has to be "closest to launch site is in most danger". In that case, The Big Island is in trouble.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Shoppingforfood on January 14, 2018, 11:41:48 AM
Look at a map, the Big Island is not near NK.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: oscar on January 14, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
If a missile had come from the Chinese or the Russians, The Big Island would not be in much danger for exactly the reasons that you state. We are pretty sure that the Russians and the Chinese will hit that at which they are aiming, if we don't figure out how to shoot it down first. If North Korea had launched it, the fear has to be "closest to launch site is in most danger". In that case, The Big Island is in trouble.

The Big Island is the part of Hawaii most distant from North Korea. Kauai and private island Niihau are much closer. Low-population Molokai and Lanai would also be closer to Oahu, making them most vulnerable to an off-target strike aimed at the Honolulu area.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: nexus73 on January 14, 2018, 12:10:49 PM
"Air raid Pearl Harbor, this is not a drill". 

Before the Japanese hit with their aircraft, miniature subs tried to gain entrance into Pearl Harbor.  One was sunk by the destroyer USS Ward and a message sent to base about the encounter.  No one was put on alert.

Then the portable radar station at Opana reported a massive incoming group of planes just as they were scheduled to shut down.  "They're just B-17's coming from Midway" was the message back to the radar crew with orders to end their observing.

Less than an hour later the Japanese struck.

For some reason Hawai'i and warnings just don't work together well.

Rick
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Bruce on January 14, 2018, 08:06:32 PM
What's more worrying is that the cancellation notice came over 30 minutes later. No safeguard from the state system to cancel a false message.

And speaking of alert systems, the natural disaster systems in Hawaii and the West Coast are woefully under-built. Tsunami and earthquake sirens should be a top priority, and yet they've been unfunded by Congress for decades.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: oscar on January 14, 2018, 08:19:12 PM
What's more worrying is that the cancellation notice came over 30 minutes later. No safeguard from the state system to cancel a false message.

And speaking of alert systems, the natural disaster systems in Hawaii and the West Coast are woefully under-built. Tsunami and earthquake sirens should be a top priority, and yet they've been unfunded by Congress for decades.

But what about local funding of Hawaii's own systems? Not just by the state, but also the rather disaster-prone Hawaii County (earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions)?

I don't know the story there, but let's not assume it's all on Federal funding.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: jakeroot on January 14, 2018, 08:34:30 PM
I don't know how the funding is split right now, but Congress really should be funding most/all defense and warning systems. Hawaii was chosen to be a state due to its strategic location in the Pacific. It should be the federal government's job to protect the land, as most of the military threats to the island are the result of mainland politics.

Geographic threats are a different story, although I'd still prefer to see >90% federal funding for those systems. If the US wants x-area of land to be a part of the US, it has a duty to protect that land (or at least the citizens who occupy said land).
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 14, 2018, 08:43:35 PM
https://nypost.com/2018/01/14/worker-who-sent-out-hawaii-missile-alert-re-assigned/

Apparently the accused person who allegedly push the alert system has been reassigned until FCC and Hawaii state investigations are handled.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ColossalBlocks on January 14, 2018, 10:16:40 PM
I was worried when I first heard it but when I heard the false alarm and the reason why, I was laughing histerically.

If these false alarms occur more often, the trouble is when it'll be real, people will think then it's just another false alarm and it ends like the tale of the boy who cried wolf.

The same situation somewhat happened in Joplin, Missouri in 2011.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Scott5114 on January 15, 2018, 03:10:15 AM
What's more worrying is that the cancellation notice came over 30 minutes later. No safeguard from the state system to cancel a false message.

Apparently the first indication from a government official that the message was a false alarm was a Tweet from Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI) stating such.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 15, 2018, 07:53:46 AM
Look at a map, the Big Island is not near NK.

True but given the North Korea missile threats in the past Hawaii, American Samoa, Guam, Alaska, Washington State, Oregon and California have been emphasized as targets for a North Korean nuclear strike in the past. Also I heard stuff that the University of Hawaii was in the process of updating their evacuation routes when the missile alert was activated.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: triplemultiplex on January 15, 2018, 10:32:44 AM
(https://pics.me.me/this-is-not-a-drill-28490331.png)



Hawaii is going to have a baby boom in September.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Buck87 on January 15, 2018, 01:19:06 PM
Hawaii is going to have a baby boom in September.

Wouldn't it be in October?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: triplemultiplex on January 15, 2018, 03:58:18 PM
Hawaii is going to have a baby boom in September.

Wouldn't it be in October?

Naw, Hawaiian babies only take 8.5 months to incubate.
 :sombrero:
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 15, 2018, 06:57:23 PM
https://news.radio-online.com/cgi-bin/rol.exe/headline_id=n35081

http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/texas-assistant-news-director-receives-disturbing-missile-strike-alert/199026

Here is an update on the Hawaii Missile drill.


Reverted to normal size. US71



Also children in storm drains was at play during the panic

http://www.newsweek.com/hawaii-ballistic-missile-north-korea-us-781535
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 16, 2018, 06:19:35 AM
Sigh....

From CNN:

Japanese broadcaster apologizes after false North Korea missile alert
Quote
Japanese national broadcaster NHK issued an on-air apology Tuesday after issuing an alert incorrectly claiming that North Korea had launched a ballistic missile.

The message, received by phone users with the NHK app installed on their devices, read: "NHK news alert. North Korea likely to have launched missile. The government J alert: evacuate inside the building or underground. "
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1s1)
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Buck87 on January 16, 2018, 08:56:17 AM
Sigh....

From CNN:

Japanese broadcaster apologizes after false North Korea missile alert
Quote
Japanese national broadcaster NHK issued an on-air apology Tuesday after issuing an alert incorrectly claiming that North Korea had launched a ballistic missile.

The message, received by phone users with the NHK app installed on their devices, read: "NHK news alert. North Korea likely to have launched missile. The government J alert: evacuate inside the building or underground. "
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1s1)

That reminds me of this video, of a British guy in Japan reacting to a real missile launch warning:

Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 16, 2018, 01:54:50 PM
http://www.insideradio.com/free/bogus-missile-alert-weakens-confidence-in-eas-system/article_c5120f1e-fa99-11e7-813f-4ff545d21b0b.html

Expect this to go political at this point though.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 16, 2018, 05:07:37 PM
I would go crazy if I was in Hawaii! I can't imagine being in Hawaii during this.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 16, 2018, 08:20:21 PM
From Business Insider:

Hawaii emergency agency password in photo sparks security criticism
Quote
On Saturday, people in Hawaii were awakened by a terrifying false alert about an inbound missile. Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency has said a worker clicked the wrong item in a drop-down menu and sent it, and that its system was not hacked.

But an Associated Press photo from July that recently resurfaced on Twitter has raised questions about the agency's cybersecurity practices.

In it, the agency's operations officer poses in front of a battery of screens. Attached to one is a password written on a Post-it note.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1s2)
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: SectorZ on January 16, 2018, 09:04:29 PM
I would go crazy if I was in Hawaii! I can't imagine being in Hawaii during this.

Pretty sure the fatman isn't throwing an ICBM at Hawaii. You have to be more worried about morons like the guy who caused this whole mess.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: RobbieL2415 on January 16, 2018, 11:00:33 PM
From Business Insider:

Hawaii emergency agency password in photo sparks security criticism
Quote
On Saturday, people in Hawaii were awakened by a terrifying false alert about an inbound missile. Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency has said a worker clicked the wrong item in a drop-down menu and sent it, and that its system was not hacked.

But an Associated Press photo from July that recently resurfaced on Twitter has raised questions about the agency's cybersecurity practices.

In it, the agency's operations officer poses in front of a battery of screens. Attached to one is a password written on a Post-it note.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1s2)
At least that isn't a launch code. Those are kept under lock and key somewhere at NORAD.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: slorydn1 on January 17, 2018, 12:39:54 AM
I see we have a world full of perfect people who have never clicked on an incorrect link, pressed the wrong button, hit the wrong key on their keyboard (etc). Between here and in the comments of the various articles I keep seeing words like moron thrown around alot to decribe the individual who clicked the wrong link on his screen, but it looks to me like the only moron was the one who designed the system so that could happen to begin with.Well him and whoever ordered that they would do a test of the system at shift change instead of the middle of the shift when an operator is most in tune with his equipment.

I am at work, and while reading the original article I kept looking at my radio interface screen with all the channel windows, and "buttons" for setting off the alarms for the different fire depts/rescue squads and I smiled-giggled actually.

We use a track ball (yep, a Missile Command style trackball for those old enough to remember them) to move the cursor around and all it takes is being off by a few mm's to wake up the wrong fire department at 3 in the morning. In 20+ years I have done just that a small number of times. Of course in my case when that happens it's a much smaller population that is being affected (one volunteer fire department versus an entire state) and I can immediately tell them to go back to sleep by simply keying up the radio and telling them to "10-22 (disregard) their alarm", and then hit the correct alarm and continue on. At worst I have caused 30-40 people to lose a little sleep and it may have cost 10-15 seconds or so in actual response to the call.

A system where you are sending out a warning to millions of people all at the same time should not be automated, at all. Someone should have to jump through all the neccesary hoops to get that message out. In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 17, 2018, 05:09:36 AM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 10:26:04 AM
In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 17, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2018, 10:55:44 AM
In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!
Even few days in a shelter can help to avoid most nasty fallouts. And you can get a few months worth of food, it is not that expensive. Having well and septic is not that uncommon in rural areas. Electtic power to operate all that is an issue, but I can think of some options.
Now is there a point to survive and come out to destroyed economy, disappeared infrastructure and ruined cities and people fighting for food? That is a totally different question.
Hiding may make sense in case of NK launch, they wouldn't do much harm - and situation will be treated pretty much like major hurricane or earthquake...
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: nexus73 on January 17, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: oscar on January 17, 2018, 12:55:04 PM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Throw in too many precautions, and you delay issuance of alerts. Some precautions might require more people on hand, twiddling their thumbs between alerts (test or real).

That said, one option might be similar to the system for launching land-based ICBMs, where two people have to turn keys at the same time, and the switches are in separate locations so one person can't turn both keys.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2018, 12:56:05 PM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2018, 12:59:50 PM
That said, one option might be similar to the system for launching land-based ICBMs, where two people have to turn keys at the same time, and the switches are in separate locations so one person can't turn both keys.
As far as I know, US launch system is 3 out of 5 signals... Or you refer to 15a30?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 18, 2018, 06:36:48 AM
From Ars Technica:

The interface to send out a missile alert in Hawaii is slightly less bad
Quote
The Honolulu Civil Beat claims to have obtained a picture of the interface used to send out tests and missile alerts to the people of Hawaii, and it's not pretty.

It appears the employee who sent out the mobile and broadcast missile alert that sent Hawaii into a panic for 38 minutes on Saturday was supposed to choose "DRILL - PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" but instead chose "PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" from an unordered list of equally unintuitive and difficult-to-read options.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1s8)
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kkt on January 18, 2018, 08:37:57 PM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.

It shouldn't take 30 seconds to read a pseudorandom number on the screen and type it.  Maybe 5 seconds, allowing for an individual in a panic.  I would say it's worth it to avoid false alarms.

Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: formulanone on January 18, 2018, 08:48:28 PM
I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.

It shouldn't take 30 seconds to read a pseudorandom number on the screen and type it.  Maybe 5 seconds, allowing for an individual in a panic.  I would say it's worth it to avoid false alarms.


I'd hope there's an RSA token code (or equivalent) required to enter this kind of thing in. They take 3-5 seconds.

Either that, or the app was working fine, and a text banner popped up at just the wrong time... :P
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 18, 2018, 11:50:37 PM
From The Verge:

Here’s how Hawaii’s emergency alert design led to a false alarm
Quote
While the state has not named its software provider, evidence suggests it is an Idaho-based company called AlertSense, a FEMA-approved company that says it works with clients in states around the country. The audio version of the alert broadcast in Hawaii was posted on the company’s website. The first image released by Hawaii also appears similar to example software provided to The Verge by AlertSense. For instance, the word “templates” appears above the alert options in AlertSense’s software, and is barely visible in the first image issued by the state. (A local TV station in Hawaii independently came to the same conclusion.) The Verge’s review of the program suggests that functionally there is only a one-click difference between sending a test and a live alert.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1sa)
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 19, 2018, 12:17:52 AM
From Vox:

Hawaii’s false alarm revealed the stunning flaws in our emergency alert system
An expert explains just how convoluted the system that tells us if we’re in danger really is.
Quote
Hawaiian authorities have said that the mistake was a matter of human error: An official just clicked the wrong link on their computer screen. But the fact that one person’s errant mouse click led to panic made a lot of people wonder: Just how reliable is the country’s emergency alert system, anyway? If that could happen in Hawaii, could it happen in Washington, DC? How does this whole thing even work?

To find out, I contacted retired Rear Adm. David Simpson, who served as the chief of the Federal Communications Commission’s Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau from 2013 to 2017. He’s seen firsthand how the federal government works with states, local communities, and broadcasters to disseminate alerts about natural and man-made disasters.

It turns out that the US’s emergency management alert system is actually made up of a bunch of separate systems, many of which are underfunded. This means that many emergency officials are working with unsophisticated software, which can lead to mistakes like the one in Hawaii.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1sc)
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: US71 on January 23, 2018, 12:49:22 PM
https://radioink.com/2018/01/18/theres-incoming-missile-now/ (https://radioink.com/2018/01/18/theres-incoming-missile-now/)


Here is an update.






404
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Duke87 on January 23, 2018, 08:15:59 PM
In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!

Remember that there were plenty of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that survived those blasts. There was even one man who survived both (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Yamaguchi).

Obviously if you are sufficiently close to the point of detonation you're toast, but there are plenty of people outside of that radius - people who won't be vaporized but will be irradiated - to whom the alert can mean the difference between life and death.

The correct action to take if you receive such an alert is to find the nearest basement to get into and locate yourself as close to the middle of the building as you can. The more walls between you and outside, the better - block as much of the radiation as possible.

True, you cannot survive in there forever, but you do not need to. After 24-48 hours the level of radiation in the air outside will have dropped low enough for you to leave your sheltered spot and evacuate away from the blast.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Rothman on January 23, 2018, 10:37:52 PM
Makes me wonder about the people who can't return to Bikini Atoll because of the radiation from the nuclear blasts there decades ago.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kalvado on January 24, 2018, 09:03:51 AM
Makes me wonder about the people who can't return to Bikini Atoll because of the radiation from the nuclear blasts there decades ago.
Atomic bombs are lumped into one group - but actually have many technology variables which affect things big time. Long term contamination is usually an unwanted consequence for military applications - except for most crazy unrealized Cold War era projects where burning out enemy territory along with your own was an option. Contamination is usually a sign that not all available energy was released - so a bigger explosion was available, but not realized.
A lot of test sites suffer from failed testing - where charge did not achieve desired effect, or a dirty technology that was tested for the sake of test.
It is somewhat similar to Hiroshima and Nagasaki being perfectly safe in terms of explosion consequences - but Chernobyl or Fukushima (or Hanford) will be a problem for centuries to come.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kkt on January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
https://xkcd.com/1946/

Don't forget to mouse over the cartoon.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 25, 2018, 11:17:27 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-who-sent-false-hawaii-missile-alert-not-cooperating-fcc-n841166

Here is an update.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 26, 2018, 03:31:49 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-hawaii-employee-not-cooperating-20180125-story.html

Here is an update the person in the center of the Alert fiasco is allegedly not cooperating with the FCC over why this incident took place.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: kkt on January 26, 2018, 04:02:09 PM
Hm.  That's more peculiar than anything.  If it was just "I pressed the wrong button, I'm sorry" the person could just say so and probably face no criminal charges.  Refusing to cooperate leaves open speculation about even worst things.  Someone double-dog dared him?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: Hurricane Rex on January 27, 2018, 02:18:28 AM
Hm.  That's more peculiar than anything.  If it was just "I pressed the wrong button, I'm sorry" the person could just say so and probably face no criminal charges.  Refusing to cooperate leaves open speculation about even worst things.  Someone double-dog dared him?

Or could it be worse than that?
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: bing101 on January 30, 2018, 01:54:34 PM
http://www.tvnewscheck.com/mobile/index/article/id/110803

Here is an update.
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: roadman on January 30, 2018, 02:36:36 PM
Someone double-dog dared him?

I bet the conservation went something like this:  "Listen smart^$$, my old man says if you push the "this is for real" button, you're gonna create a huge panic and p!$$ a lot op people off."

"Oh yeah, you're full of beans and so's your old man.  What would he know about it anyway?"
Title: Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
Post by: ZLoth on January 31, 2018, 04:55:53 AM
From The Verge:

Hawaii emergency worker behind false missile alert said he thought the state was really under attack
Quote
The emergency alert worker who sent a false ballistic missile alert to Hawaii residents told officials that he believed the state was actually under attack, according to a preliminary report from the FCC.

The FCC’s report is a bizarre development in the incident, which left people scrambling after receiving a message about incoming missiles. After the false alert, the state attributed the incident to an accident, and said the worker had selected the wrong option in a drop-down menu.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1t2)