So why should I have to pay for them? I'm not an idiot, I know how to drive.
After all, what do you consider "driver assist features"?
My friend was just complaining last night about having ABS.
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 01:48:02 PM
After all, what do you consider "driver assist features"?
My friend was just complaining last night about having ABS.
Any feature that alleviates a driver's responsibility to operate the vehicle safely. So:
-Lane departure assist
-Radar-adaptive cruise control
-Forward collision warning and automatic breaking
-Blind spot monitoring
It does not include safety features that do not directly affect how the driver is operating the vehicle, like:
-ABS
-TCS
-Back-up camera
-Seat belts
-Air bags
Basically, if its doing something I learned how to do in driving school, I don't want it.
Lane assist is pretty obnoxious. Most of the time I'm crossing pavement markings intentionally, I don't need to be beeped at when I do it. The car that I rented that had this would at least turn it off when the turn signal is on, but sometimes one needs to change lanes or such without anyone around in particular that needs to be signaled to.
Adaptive cruise is also obnoxious. If I set the cruise to 70, I expect the car to go 70, not slow me down to 45 because there's some idiot in the lane ahead of me. Now there's two idiots in a row, the person in front of me, and my car's OS.
If I ever end up with a car with these features I'm considering paying an electrician to dike all of them out.
I'm not fan of them myself and often find said features annoying when operating cars I don't own. Lane departure warning indicators in particular annoy me when they are in rental cars.
Then again I'm enough of a dinosaur that I prefer how mechanical steering linkage feels compared to by-wire.
Much like the I-35 crash in Ft Worth that was ostensibly exacerbated by the presence of jersey barriers, safety features likely save more lives than they endanger. But yeah, huge learning curve for some of them, and they're still fairly primitive and a bit annoying. I'm sure that will change in good time.
I'm sure my kids will laugh at some older cars, like the one I drive right now, that not only would let you run over a pedestrian, it couldn't even change gears on its own!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 01:57:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 01:48:02 PM
After all, what do you consider "driver assist features"?
My friend was just complaining last night about having ABS.
Any feature that alleviates a driver's responsibility to operate the vehicle safely. So:
-Lane departure assist
-Radar-adaptive cruise control
-Forward collision warning and automatic breaking
-Blind spot monitoring
It does not include safety features that do not directly affect how the driver is operating the vehicle, like:
-ABS
-TCS
-Back-up camera
-Seat belts
-Air bags
Basically, if its doing something I learned how to do in driving school, I don't want it.
But that was his point. ABS contravenes ways that he learned to deal with snowy weather. He claims that it impedes his ability to drive well in adverse weather conditions.
Similarly, what about stability control? Such as...
Quote from: corco on January 04, 2018, 10:17:23 PM
Stability control, on the other hand - I've had it for a few years now and still can't get used to that. The first time I ever drove a car with it I damn near went in the ditch when I corrected while it was correcting and I was intentionally applying a lot of gas on an icy surface (the snow-covered ramp/clear freeway situation which is common in Wyoming a few days after snow storms where you need to get up to speed before hitting the completely cleared freeway from an unplowed ramp) - and needed to get up to speed even without traction. I turn it off now when the roads are snowy/icy.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
Lane assist is pretty obnoxious. Most of the time I'm crossing pavement markings intentionally, I don't need to be beeped at when I do it. The car that I rented that had this would at least turn it off when the turn signal is on, but sometimes one needs to change lanes or such without anyone around in particular that needs to be signaled to.
Adaptive cruise is also obnoxious. If I set the cruise to 70, I expect the car to go 70, not slow me down to 45 because there's some idiot in the lane ahead of me. Now there's two idiots in a row, the person in front of me, and my car's OS.
If I ever end up with a car with these features I'm considering paying an electrician to dike all of them out.
I drive a 2019 Ford Fusion and it has on the end of the turn signal a button to turn that off but it goes off when the turn signal is on too. I love the adaptive cruise because then I can remain the correct length behind someone and you can adjust the car lengths as well. To me it just takes stress out of driving but I know what you mean. One time not long after I got the car I was driving home from Detroit on I-75 and had my cruise set to 75. I was in Auburn Hills just north of the Baldwin Road exit and a car in front of me was going 43 mph so my car slowed wayyyyyyy down to match that obnoxiously slow speed but what I don't understand is why was that car moving at only 43 mph because there was nothing in front of him preventing him from moving at highway speeds. I don't get it some people just don't belong on an Interstate highway because they have no clue on how to use the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 02:07:40 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 01:57:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 01:48:02 PM
After all, what do you consider "driver assist features"?
My friend was just complaining last night about having ABS.
Any feature that alleviates a driver's responsibility to operate the vehicle safely. So:
-Lane departure assist
-Radar-adaptive cruise control
-Forward collision warning and automatic breaking
-Blind spot monitoring
It does not include safety features that do not directly affect how the driver is operating the vehicle, like:
-ABS
-TCS
-Back-up camera
-Seat belts
-Air bags
Basically, if its doing something I learned how to do in driving school, I don't want it.
But that was his point. ABS contravenes ways that he learned to deal with snowy weather. He claims that it impedes his ability to drive well in adverse weather conditions.
Similarly, what about stability control? Such as...
Quote from: corco on January 04, 2018, 10:17:23 PM
Stability control, on the other hand - I've had it for a few years now and still can't get used to that. The first time I ever drove a car with it I damn near went in the ditch when I corrected while it was correcting and I was intentionally applying a lot of gas on an icy surface (the snow-covered ramp/clear freeway situation which is common in Wyoming a few days after snow storms where you need to get up to speed before hitting the completely cleared freeway from an unplowed ramp) - and needed to get up to speed even without traction. I turn it off now when the roads are snowy/icy.
ABS can only enhance one's ability to drive on slippery surfaces. Humans can't pulse the brakes hundreds of times a second to prevent lockup. But humans
can shoulder check, leave following distance and maintain a high level of situational awareness.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2021, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
Lane assist is pretty obnoxious. Most of the time I'm crossing pavement markings intentionally, I don't need to be beeped at when I do it. The car that I rented that had this would at least turn it off when the turn signal is on, but sometimes one needs to change lanes or such without anyone around in particular that needs to be signaled to.
Adaptive cruise is also obnoxious. If I set the cruise to 70, I expect the car to go 70, not slow me down to 45 because there's some idiot in the lane ahead of me. Now there's two idiots in a row, the person in front of me, and my car's OS.
If I ever end up with a car with these features I'm considering paying an electrician to dike all of them out.
I drive a 2019 Ford Fusion and it has on the end of the turn signal a button to turn that off but it goes off when the turn signal is on too. I love the adaptive cruise because then I can remain the correct length behind someone and you can adjust the car lengths as well. To me it just takes stress out of driving but I know what you mean. One time not long after I got the car I was driving home from Detroit on I-75 and had my cruise set to 75. I was in Auburn Hills just north of the Baldwin Road exit and a car in front of me was going 43 mph so my car slowed wayyyyyyy down to match that obnoxiously slow speed but what I don't understand is why was that car moving at only 43 mph because there was nothing in front of him preventing him from moving at highway speeds. I don't get it some people just don't belong on an Interstate highway because they have no clue on how to use the Interstate highway system.
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
Regarding the cost of the safety, I don't think that I've ever factored that into a purchase. It never really mattered to me what the difference in crash ratings were so I guess that I never thought to pay extra for safety features? I want to say in High School the only requirement I had put upon me regarding safety was ABS for the mechanical advantages described above.
My wife's Acura TLX has adaptive cruise control and I love it (recognizing it did have a bit of a learning curve to understand what is likely to trigger it to brake), but I know the cruise control can also be switched to work like a conventional cruise control where it simply tries to hold the set speed ("tries" denoting that it struggles in the mountains). Neither of us has ever switched it, but it makes me wonder whether other cars that have the adaptive cruise feature have the same option of switching to "conventional" cruise control. That would address Scott5114's gripe, although from my point of view I know it has adaptive cruise control and I've therefore come to expect it to slow down if there's a slower car ahead, so one reason I haven't switched it to conventional cruise control is that in the back of my mind I have this concern that I might forget that I switched it, expect the car to slow itself, and then find that it's not slowing. Of course, our other cars don't have adaptive cruise control and I haven't made that mistake when I drive them....
One thing I find useful about the adaptive cruise is that I can use it to keep my speed down on roads where it would be easy to go to fast but on which the volume of traffic is such that I would be reluctant to use the conventional cruise control in our other cars. I frequently use the adaptive cruise control on the Beltway and I-395, for example.
Aside from that, though, my general observation is that depending on when you foresee yourself being in the market for your next car, you may not have a lot of choice as to whether you get these sorts of features, unless you decide to buy an older used car.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2021, 02:12:33 PM
I drive a 2019 Ford Fusion and it has on the end of the turn signal a button to turn that off but it goes off when the turn signal is on too. I love the adaptive cruise because then I can remain the correct length behind someone and you can adjust the car lengths as well. To me it just takes stress out of driving but I know what you mean.
My first experience with it came on the Kansas Turnpike through the Flint Hills. There were a lot of frustrating games of catch up to a truck going slowly up a hill, have the cruise kill my speed, and then try to get over and get pinned in the right lane by people doing the speed limit passing both of us because my car decided it knows better than me what speed I want to be going. With normal cruise control this situation would have been fine because I could join the traffic at-speed and pass along with them, but I'm not about to step out in front of a line of cars doing 75 mph unless I'm doing something approximating that speed.
It was exacerbated by it being a rental and thus a completely unfamiliar vehicle. I never could figure out how to revert to normal cruise control, if it was even possible; instead I set the detection range to the lowest possible value so that at least I had a chance to get over before it would kick in.
The only features I find useful in my 2016 Subaru Outback (second generation Eyesight package) are the blind-spot warning and adaptive cruise control features. It's made long drives on interstates immensely easier as I can set the cruising speed at say, 75 MPH. I still keep my foot on the brake pedal in emergencies but this simple feature has reduced fatigue on long drives. I also made use of the feature in heavy or stopped traffic to maintain distance and reduce fatigue. The only downside is that paired with the CVT transmission is that the engine will rev needlessly on grades - that's not an issue Eyesight and more of the CVT transmission and its sensitivity.
I did turn off on day one the lane departure warning notifications. It would chime ALL THE TIME when I would drive mountainous roads where I'd frequently be on or over the fog line or centerline.
Not all automation are detrimental. One of the best car automations I've come across is the Pro Trailer Backup Assist feature as part of Ford's Co-Pilot 360 package. While I know how to back up trailers reliably, this feature simply automates the process with near-perfect accuracy. Just turn a knob and it's done.
These features aren't for everyone and they aren't forced on all vehicles. With Subaru, you can opt into the Eyesight package at an added cost. With higher trim levels, it's included.
I hate how cars turn the turn signal off when you curve the other way. I learned in driver's ed to use the turn signal properly and if I want to use the right turn signal for miles and then turn left it's my damn right.
Rented a car with adaptive cruise control and it was more of a nuisance than help. Luckily, the car had an option to turn it off. Just felt like adaptive wasn't helping me maintain my speed well -- seemed to slow down unnecessarily.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
That's the thing, at some point either the market is going to dictate that choice away or it will be mandated away. Don't forget, we aren't too far removed from a time when people would skimp out on extra air bags and ABS because it cost more as optional equipment.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2021, 02:12:33 PM
I drive a 2019 Ford Fusion and it has on the end of the turn signal a button to turn that off but it goes off when the turn signal is on too. I love the adaptive cruise because then I can remain the correct length behind someone and you can adjust the car lengths as well. To me it just takes stress out of driving but I know what you mean.
My first experience with it came on the Kansas Turnpike through the Flint Hills. There were a lot of frustrating games of catch up to a truck going slowly up a hill, have the cruise kill my speed, and then try to get over and get pinned in the right lane by people doing the speed limit passing both of us because my car decided it knows better than me what speed I want to be going. With normal cruise control this situation would have been fine because I could join the traffic at-speed and pass along with them, but I'm not about to step out in front of a line of cars doing 75 mph unless I'm doing something approximating that speed.
It was exacerbated by it being a rental and thus a completely unfamiliar vehicle. I never could figure out how to revert to normal cruise control, if it was even possible; instead I set the detection range to the lowest possible value so that at least I had a chance to get over before it would kick in.
That's the whole thing. You have to get over before it starts slowing you down like for a truck in front of you. I was struggling with mine driving on I-85 through North Carolina in the rain last Thursday. The last stretch for me that night between Richmond and Fredericksburg was pretty rough as it turned to freezing rain and then snow as I got closer to Fredericksburg. Woke up Friday morning to an inch of thick snow. Not nearly as fun driving through that crap.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2021, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
That's the thing, at some point either the market is going to dictate that choice away or it will be mandated away. Don't forget, we aren't too far removed from a time when people would skimp out on extra air bags and ABS because it cost more as optional equipment.
Again, I bet that will create a large demand for used vehicles.
I don't think there will be a huge rush to used vehicles just because of new fancy assist technology. Too many other factors come into play when one decides to buy new or used.
In fact, I'd put those that would buy a car that has tens of thousands of miles on it because it doesn't have lane departure warnings in a small minority.
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2021, 07:31:21 AM
I don't think there will be a huge rush to used vehicles just because of new fancy assist technology. Too many other factors come into play when one decides to buy new or used.
In fact, I'd put those that would buy a car that has tens of thousands of miles on it because it doesn't have lane departure warnings in a small minority.
Then either the price of automobiles needs to come down or a manufacturer needs to refocus their business model into engineering cars built for the sake of excellent driving performance and not wizz-bang stuff. There are cars today that have all the tech you could imagine but drive like poo.
I'll mostly echo some of what's mentioned above about a few features. Lane departure warnings are far more annoying than helpful. I guess I like to drive just onto the white line sometimes. It warns often enough that I am sure I'd ignore a real lane departure error. I don't mind the blind spot warning but still turn and look as I've done for decades. I first hated the the adaptive cruise and still get annoyed by it when I come up on someone who's going just a little slower and I don't notice that it slowed me down, but I've found it pretty useful to reduce the stress of heavier traffic that slows down and speeds up.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:39:38 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2021, 07:31:21 AM
I don't think there will be a huge rush to used vehicles just because of new fancy assist technology. Too many other factors come into play when one decides to buy new or used.
In fact, I'd put those that would buy a car that has tens of thousands of miles on it because it doesn't have lane departure warnings in a small minority.
Then either the price of automobiles needs to come down or a manufacturer needs to refocus their business model into engineering cars built for the sake of excellent driving performance and not wizz-bang stuff. There are cars today that have all the tech you could imagine but drive like poo.
You know the "other" acronyms for Ford, Dodge and other cars, right? They're not recently made up. They were joked about in the 1970's (and probably before) because those cars drove like poo then also.
Basically, the phenome you have is akin to "Grumpy Old Man's Syndrome". More or less, on the first day you were able to drive, you liked something a certain way, and that's the way it should always be. You probably wouldn't even consider a manual-transmission car because you're used to automatics. You probably don't even give a second thought to the passenger-side mirror, even though they were only required over the past few decades. Your state laws probably inform you of the need to use arm motions for left and right turns, because turn signals weren't always in a car...or reliable.
You complain about the price of the car due to certain factors, but not other factors. Backup cameras...they are one of the newest features on a car, and quite expensive. But you're ok with that. What's wrong with walking behind your car before you get in, then scanning back and forth while looking in your rearview mirrors as you back up, that has been done for generations?
How about other things in the vehicle, such as bluetooth, usb ports, automatic windows, child safety locks on the rear doors, and internal latch releases in trunks? Many of these are convenience and safety items that don't have anything to do with driving, but are all relatively recent additions that drive up prices of vehicles.
There's basically no one that would ever say "I have no idea how to drive" as they drive down the road. In 2019, there were 36,000 deaths, and nearly every one could be attributed to someone who thought they could drive safely. And 2019 was considered one of the safest years on record.
In regards to what others have mentioned, I'm not a fan of the lane assist feature either, and figured out how to turn it off in my vehicle. Before that, I turned the sound off and just had the steering wheel vibrate if I drifted over the line. I gave it several months before I decided it wasn't worthwhile.
Adaptive Cruise Control: I like, but it takes some getting used to. I can set the distance to be 1, 2, 2.5 or 3 seconds from a vehicle in front of me...I choose 1 second. While "safety experts" recommend at least 2 seconds from the vehicle in front of you, we forget how far away that distance is. If someone had the ACC on, but finding themselves getting slowed down by the vehicle in front of them, they're already well within an unsafe tailgating distance. So because of this, I do merge over to pass sooner than I previously did. If someone is irritated by the system because they are having issues squeezing between other vehicles to pass, they're basically committing the infraction that would irritate that same person if someone squeezed in front of them. The result is that these safety features are basically pointing out that many people are indeed bad drivers, even though they didn't realize it, and they really don't like it when that's pointed out in the form of these vehicle's safety features!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2021, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
That's the thing, at some point either the market is going to dictate that choice away or it will be mandated away. Don't forget, we aren't too far removed from a time when people would skimp out on extra air bags and ABS because it cost more as optional equipment.
Again, I bet that will create a large demand for used vehicles.
Actually, the market has been favoring the opposite as of late. Using the data below, about 10 years ago, over 3 times more used cars were purchased than new cars. But that margin has been shrinking to about 2 or 2.5 times. Some of the reason: The used car market has become very expensive compared to the past. Vehicles hold their value longer. Interest rates on loans tend to favor new car buying too, so the gap of savings buying used isn't the savings it once was.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/
No one cares if you buy used vs. new...as the chart shows, more often than not many people buy a used car. But you'll find many of the features you are avoiding are going to be on those used cars anyway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2021, 09:28:41 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:39:38 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2021, 07:31:21 AM
I don't think there will be a huge rush to used vehicles just because of new fancy assist technology. Too many other factors come into play when one decides to buy new or used.
In fact, I'd put those that would buy a car that has tens of thousands of miles on it because it doesn't have lane departure warnings in a small minority.
Then either the price of automobiles needs to come down or a manufacturer needs to refocus their business model into engineering cars built for the sake of excellent driving performance and not wizz-bang stuff. There are cars today that have all the tech you could imagine but drive like poo.
You know the "other" acronyms for Ford, Dodge and other cars, right? They're not recently made up. They were joked about in the 1970's (and probably before) because those cars drove like poo then also.
Basically, the phenome you have is akin to "Grumpy Old Man's Syndrome". More or less, on the first day you were able to drive, you liked something a certain way, and that's the way it should always be. You probably wouldn't even consider a manual-transmission car because you're used to automatics. You probably don't even give a second thought to the passenger-side mirror, even though they were only required over the past few decades. Your state laws probably inform you of the need to use arm motions for left and right turns, because turn signals weren't always in a car...or reliable.
You complain about the price of the car due to certain factors, but not other factors. Backup cameras...they are one of the newest features on a car, and quite expensive. But you're ok with that. What's wrong with walking behind your car before you get in, then scanning back and forth while looking in your rearview mirrors as you back up, that has been done for generations?
How about other things in the vehicle, such as bluetooth, usb ports, automatic windows, child safety locks on the rear doors, and internal latch releases in trunks? Many of these are convenience and safety items that don't have anything to do with driving, but are all relatively recent additions that drive up prices of vehicles.
There's basically no one that would ever say "I have no idea how to drive" as they drive down the road. In 2019, there were 36,000 deaths, and nearly every one could be attributed to someone who thought they could drive safely. And 2019 was considered one of the safest years on record.
In regards to what others have mentioned, I'm not a fan of the lane assist feature either, and figured out how to turn it off in my vehicle. Before that, I turned the sound off and just had the steering wheel vibrate if I drifted over the line. I gave it several months before I decided it wasn't worthwhile.
Adaptive Cruise Control: I like, but it takes some getting used to. I can set the distance to be 1, 2, 2.5 or 3 seconds from a vehicle in front of me...I choose 1 second. While "safety experts" recommend at least 2 seconds from the vehicle in front of you, we forget how far away that distance is. If someone had the ACC on, but finding themselves getting slowed down by the vehicle in front of them, they're already well within an unsafe tailgating distance. So because of this, I do merge over to pass sooner than I previously did. If someone is irritated by the system because they are having issues squeezing between other vehicles to pass, they're basically committing the infraction that would irritate that same person if someone squeezed in front of them. The result is that these safety features are basically pointing out that many people are indeed bad drivers, even though they didn't realize it, and they really don't like it when that's pointed out in the form of these vehicle's safety features!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2021, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
That's the thing, at some point either the market is going to dictate that choice away or it will be mandated away. Don't forget, we aren't too far removed from a time when people would skimp out on extra air bags and ABS because it cost more as optional equipment.
Again, I bet that will create a large demand for used vehicles.
Actually, the market has been favoring the opposite as of late. Using the data below, about 10 years ago, over 3 times more used cars were purchased than new cars. But that margin has been shrinking to about 2 or 2.5 times. Some of the reason: The used car market has become very expensive compared to the past. Vehicles hold their value longer. Interest rates on loans tend to favor new car buying too, so the gap of savings buying used isn't the savings it once was.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/
No one cares if you buy used vs. new...as the chart shows, more often than not many people buy a used car. But you'll find many of the features you are avoiding are going to be on those used cars anyway.
1. I know how to and prefer to drive stick, but it's insanely hard to find used cars with manual transmissions, let alone new ones. I'm 27 and have been driving for 11 years, so I'm definitely not a luddite, just someone who puts ride quality and handling above everything else.
2. Backup cameras are federally mandated and because visibility out the back window of modern cars is so poor (thanks to other federal mandates) they are a necessary safety feature. Child safety locks and internal trunk releases are also federally mandated and what I would consider essential. I would not mind paying for them.
3. I always assume no one on the road today has a clue about how to drive. I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.
Count me in as another old-school operator. I've survived a half-century without these features, and I'd rather quit driving before I buy a car with those fancy new and confusing technologies.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
Regarding increasing prices of new cars, you're probably right. You look at the cost of a basic car nowadays (compared with inflation) versus at the start of the 1970s and it's way higher. Features and safety items do have their prices often passed along to the consumer. Granted the prices of a lot of those items and safety features has come down significantly, plus people are more accepting of paying more for a car. I do wonder what will happen though of things like the 2035 electric passenger car mandate for California does become a reality. There will probably a huge initial spike in new car prices and a spike in used car sales.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
Regarding increasing prices of new cars, you're probably right. You look at the cost of a basic car nowadays (compared with inflation) versus at the start of the 1970s and it's way higher. Features and safety items do have their prices often passed along to the consumer. Granted the prices of a lot of those items and safety features has come down significantly, plus people are more accepting of paying more for a car. I do wonder what will happen though of things like the 2035 electric passenger car mandate for California does become a reality. There will probably a huge initial spike in new car prices and a spike in used car sales.
Or perhaps you'll see Califonrians buying gas cars in AZ, NV, and OR.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
Regarding increasing prices of new cars, you're probably right. You look at the cost of a basic car nowadays (compared with inflation) versus at the start of the 1970s and it's way higher. Features and safety items do have their prices often passed along to the consumer. Granted the prices of a lot of those items and safety features has come down significantly, plus people are more accepting of paying more for a car. I do wonder what will happen though of things like the 2035 electric passenger car mandate for California does become a reality. There will probably a huge initial spike in new car prices and a spike in used car sales.
Or perhaps you'll see Califonrians buying gas cars in AZ, NV, and OR.
Probably, but that's likely also not sustainable for most to drive four plus hours from major dealers to get a new car. In theory if I'm still here in California and things stay the status quo I'll be past the 20 year mark at my job and fully vested. At that point I won't have much incentive to stay so I kind of am curious how the 2035 mandate would affect me as a consumer. As of now electrics don't do much for me given I have a 38 mile drive to the middle of nowhere. But that said, I do have the Challenger I wanted bought and paid for. I kind of wonder if those 2035 era cars would be able to meet my needs by then, but it's difficult to project how my life might be by then.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
Regarding increasing prices of new cars, you're probably right. You look at the cost of a basic car nowadays (compared with inflation) versus at the start of the 1970s and it's way higher. Features and safety items do have their prices often passed along to the consumer. Granted the prices of a lot of those items and safety features has come down significantly, plus people are more accepting of paying more for a car. I do wonder what will happen though of things like the 2035 electric passenger car mandate for California does become a reality. There will probably a huge initial spike in new car prices and a spike in used car sales.
Or perhaps you'll see Califonrians buying gas cars in AZ, NV, and OR.
Probably, but that's likely also not sustainable for most to drive four plus hours from major dealers to get a new car. In theory if I'm still here in California and things stay the status quo I'll be past the 20 year mark at my job and fully vested. At that point I won't have much incentive to stay so I kind of am curious how the 2035 mandate would affect me as a consumer. As of now electrics don't do much for me given I have a 38 mile drive to the middle of nowhere. But that said, I do have the Challenger I wanted bought and paid for. I kind of wonder if those 2035 era cars would be able to meet my needs by then, but it's difficult to project how my life might be by then.
Does the mandate people buying gas cars online and importing them, aka Carvana?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
My first experience with it came on the Kansas Turnpike through the Flint Hills. There were a lot of frustrating games of catch up to a truck going slowly up a hill, have the cruise kill my speed, and then try to get over and get pinned in the right lane by people doing the speed limit passing both of us because my car decided it knows better than me what speed I want to be going. With normal cruise control this situation would have been fine because I could join the traffic at-speed and pass along with them, but I'm not about to step out in front of a line of cars doing 75 mph unless I'm doing something approximating that speed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2021, 07:04:10 PM
I was struggling with mine driving on I-85 through North Carolina in the rain last Thursday. The last stretch for me that night between Richmond and Fredericksburg was pretty rough as it turned to freezing rain and then snow as I got closer to Fredericksburg. Woke up Friday morning to an inch of thick snow. Not nearly as fun driving through that crap.
Quote from: Jim on February 18, 2021, 08:59:34 AM
I first hated the the adaptive cruise and still get annoyed by it when I come up on someone who's going just a little slower and I don't notice that it slowed me down, but I've found it pretty useful to reduce the stress of heavier traffic that slows down and speeds up.
Those are all situations in which I don't use cruise control anyway: hills, traffic, wet or snowy roads. I would have turned off regular cruise control by that point anyway, then re-engaged it when the road flattened out, traffic thinned out, or pavement dried out.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
How many of these things are standard because they're required by the state? In such a case, it doesn't even matter if a manufacturer
wants to make a car without them.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
My first experience with it came on the Kansas Turnpike through the Flint Hills. There were a lot of frustrating games of catch up to a truck going slowly up a hill, have the cruise kill my speed, and then try to get over and get pinned in the right lane by people doing the speed limit passing both of us because my car decided it knows better than me what speed I want to be going. With normal cruise control this situation would have been fine because I could join the traffic at-speed and pass along with them, but I'm not about to step out in front of a line of cars doing 75 mph unless I'm doing something approximating that speed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2021, 07:04:10 PM
I was struggling with mine driving on I-85 through North Carolina in the rain last Thursday. The last stretch for me that night between Richmond and Fredericksburg was pretty rough as it turned to freezing rain and then snow as I got closer to Fredericksburg. Woke up Friday morning to an inch of thick snow. Not nearly as fun driving through that crap.
Quote from: Jim on February 18, 2021, 08:59:34 AM
I first hated the the adaptive cruise and still get annoyed by it when I come up on someone who's going just a little slower and I don't notice that it slowed me down, but I've found it pretty useful to reduce the stress of heavier traffic that slows down and speeds up.
Those are all situations in which I don't use cruise control anyway: hills, traffic, wet or snowy roads. I would have turned off regular cruise control by that point anyway, then re-engaged it when the road flattened out, traffic thinned out, or pavement dried out.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
How many of these things are standard because they're required by the state? In such a case, it doesn't even matter if a manufacturer wants to make a car without them.
Based on my knowledge, the FMVSS mandates:
-Backup cameras
-Traction control*
-Internal trunk latches
-Child safety locks
-Rear defrosters
-Front defrosters
-Seat belts
-Air bags
-And a bunch of other technical stuff
* ABS is not expressly required under the FMVSS, but by the nature of how traction control is implemented, ABS is a necessary component of it.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 17, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it. Again, I'm capable of slowing a car down on my own.
This is the issue: some of these are standard...but it's still included in the price. And with it being standard, you don't have the choice not to have it. So I'm paying for something I don't want.
OK, well then I hope they don't mind me buying used for the rest of my life.
That is my prediction: that the demand for used cars will skyrocket as new cars become more expensive and too complicated to use.
That's the thing, I don't think that you'll be able to chase that forever in the used car market. At some point even used cars will have those features built into them unless you want to stick with something that is increasingly aged. It would be like going out now to find something that a Ford Tempo because you want a tape control deck and not a full set of air bags.
Regarding increasing prices of new cars, you're probably right. You look at the cost of a basic car nowadays (compared with inflation) versus at the start of the 1970s and it's way higher. Features and safety items do have their prices often passed along to the consumer. Granted the prices of a lot of those items and safety features has come down significantly, plus people are more accepting of paying more for a car. I do wonder what will happen though of things like the 2035 electric passenger car mandate for California does become a reality. There will probably a huge initial spike in new car prices and a spike in used car sales.
Or perhaps you'll see Califonrians buying gas cars in AZ, NV, and OR.
Probably, but that's likely also not sustainable for most to drive four plus hours from major dealers to get a new car. In theory if I'm still here in California and things stay the status quo I'll be past the 20 year mark at my job and fully vested. At that point I won't have much incentive to stay so I kind of am curious how the 2035 mandate would affect me as a consumer. As of now electrics don't do much for me given I have a 38 mile drive to the middle of nowhere. But that said, I do have the Challenger I wanted bought and paid for. I kind of wonder if those 2035 era cars would be able to meet my needs by then, but it's difficult to project how my life might be by then.
Does the mandate people buying gas cars online and importing them, aka Carvana?
I don't think that's even been decided yet. The Governor's mandate was for CARB to come up with something to make the 2035 thing happen.
To see where we'll be at in 14 years, it may be helpful to look back 14 years. Those things that are commonplace and being scoffed at here were brand new on the more expensive vehicles in 2007. Obviously, this is a "for better or worse" type thing, and not every new feature becomes commonplace. And, as most features go, some consumers will like and appreciate the feature; others will be annoyed by it.
https://www.autorentalnews.com/69533/carscoms-top-10-new-features-of-2007
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
2. Backup cameras are federally mandated and because visibility out the back window of modern cars is so poor (thanks to other federal mandates) they are a necessary safety feature. Child safety locks and internal trunk releases are also federally mandated and what I would consider essential. I would not mind paying for them.
I'm not sure I get this reasoning. You're ok with certain features only because they're federally mandated? Nearly all safety features are added to vehicles because there's a benefit to having them, which is evident by the total number of roadway deaths declining significantly over the years.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 10:59:18 AM
How many of these things are standard because they're required by the state? In such a case, it doesn't even matter if a manufacturer wants to make a car without them.
When California puts something into law for vehicles, chances are it will become a standard vehicle manufactures will include on all cars sold in the country. Too difficult to try to limit it just to CA.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2021, 12:01:20 PM
To see where we'll be at in 14 years, it may be helpful to look back 14 years. Those things that are commonplace and being scoffed at here were brand new on the more expensive vehicles in 2007. Obviously, this is a "for better or worse" type thing, and not every new feature becomes commonplace. And, as most features go, some consumers will like and appreciate the feature; others will be annoyed by it.
https://www.autorentalnews.com/69533/carscoms-top-10-new-features-of-2007
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
2. Backup cameras are federally mandated and because visibility out the back window of modern cars is so poor (thanks to other federal mandates) they are a necessary safety feature. Child safety locks and internal trunk releases are also federally mandated and what I would consider essential. I would not mind paying for them.
I'm not sure I get this reasoning. You're ok with certain features only because they're federally mandated? Nearly all safety features are added to vehicles because there's a benefit to having them, which is evident by the total number of roadway deaths declining significantly over the years.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 10:59:18 AM
How many of these things are standard because they're required by the state? In such a case, it doesn't even matter if a manufacturer wants to make a car without them.
When California puts something into law for vehicles, chances are it will become a standard vehicle manufactures will include on all cars sold in the country. Too difficult to try to limit it just to CA.
I accept that certain features are federally mandated, not necessarily like them. Mandated features tend to so obviously save lives that its hard not to see them as standard equipment.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Mandated features tend to so obviously save lives that its hard not to see them as standard equipment.
Don't fewer than ten people a year die from being trapped in the trunk?
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
There wasn't a lot but that was also attributed to a lack of data: https://one.nhtsa.gov/Laws-&-Regulations/Other-Equipment/ci.Report-to-Congress-on-Motor-Vehicle-Trunk-Entrapment.print
It was partly mandated after one brutal summer where 11 children died in the trunk: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2000/10/20/00-27038/federal-motor-vehicle-safety-standards-interior-trunk-release
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
Same. My first Subaru Outback had the camera in the rear-view mirror which was great because I could backup and keep my eyes on one screen and mirror that were adjacent to each other. My new Outback has it dead center in the media screen and includes linkage to the Eyesight package. It really makes parallel parking a breeze - I can squeeze into tighter parking spaces and ensure that I don't hit other vehicles.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX.
The only car I've driven with a back-up camera was a rental when we drove to Minnesota in December. In short order, the cameras were all covered in road grime and became pointless.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
Driving in reverse is no big deal to me ever since having a job for years that involved driving forklifts. I can turn my head to do it, I can use the mirrors to do it, no problem. But I could definitely see using a camera for parallel parking!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2021, 12:01:20 PM
To see where we'll be at in 14 years, it may be helpful to look back 14 years. Those things that are commonplace and being scoffed at here were brand new on the more expensive vehicles in 2007. Obviously, this is a "for better or worse" type thing, and not every new feature becomes commonplace. And, as most features go, some consumers will like and appreciate the feature; others will be annoyed by it.
https://www.autorentalnews.com/69533/carscoms-top-10-new-features-of-2007
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
2. Backup cameras are federally mandated and because visibility out the back window of modern cars is so poor (thanks to other federal mandates) they are a necessary safety feature. Child safety locks and internal trunk releases are also federally mandated and what I would consider essential. I would not mind paying for them.
I'm not sure I get this reasoning. You're ok with certain features only because they're federally mandated? Nearly all safety features are added to vehicles because there's a benefit to having them, which is evident by the total number of roadway deaths declining significantly over the years.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 10:59:18 AM
How many of these things are standard because they're required by the state? In such a case, it doesn't even matter if a manufacturer wants to make a car without them.
When California puts something into law for vehicles, chances are it will become a standard vehicle manufactures will include on all cars sold in the country. Too difficult to try to limit it just to CA.
I accept that certain features are federally mandated, not necessarily like them. Mandated features tend to so obviously save lives that its hard not to see them as standard equipment.
The problem is that the California market tends to have enough of an influence to dictate what happens in the rest of he country. I recall things like having a car that was "California Emissions Complaint" as being a selling point. Automakers probably really willing to do things like they were in the 1970s like when Pontiac sold the 403 Oldsmobile V8 in California as opposed to the Pontiac 400 V8 elsewhere.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:43:43 PM
I recall things like having a car that was "California Emissions Complaint" as being a selling point.
I took that literally for a minute when I first read it, and I believed it. I imagined rednecks in the Missouri Ozarks buying a truck specifically because it wasn't legal in California.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:43:43 PM
I recall things like having a car that was "California Emissions Complaint" as being a selling point.
I took that literally for a minute when I first read it, and I believed it. I imagined rednecks in the Missouri Ozarks buying a truck specifically because it wasn't legal in California.
I mean hey, there were a reason I bought my Challenger when I did and when I lived in Florida before I moved here. I wouldn't put it past a lot of people to find that appealing.
For full context there is a 7.5% sales tax on new cars in California and an additional 2.5% that can be collected by the city you purchased in:
https://www.salestaxhandbook.com/california/sales-tax-vehicles#:~:text=California%20Sales%20Tax%20on%20Car%20Purchases%3A%20California%20collects,to%202.5%25%2C%20in%20addition%20to%20the%20state%20tax.
Compared to 6% in Florida:
https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31552949/florida-car-tax/#:~:text=Florida%20collects%20a%20six%20percent%20sales%20tax%20on,you%20are%20responsible%20for%20paying%20the%20sales%20tax.
Now it I recall correctly California can collect the difference in taxes on a new car until it is a year old. The trick was registering my Challenger in Florida the November before I moved. I know it was a sneaky move but I had a valid twelve month registration upon my arrival and I was in a military oriented community where an out of state plate wouldn't flag as unusual. Plus, that Florida registration was a drop in the bucket compared to the $350 plus for California.
On a side note I purposely moved the second week of January 2016 to avoid the State Franchise tax board for 2015. It didn't make sense to have to deal with all the State income taxes in California in 2015 when Florida doesn't have one.
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.
Count me in as another person who doesn't really like driver-assist features. Much of what they help with can be at least partly mitigated by just being a safe, defensive driver. That being said, some of them seem like they would be worth it.
Here's my list of features I do and do not like:
Like:
Airbags
ABS/Traction Control
Backup Camera
Auto Emergency Braking/Warning (if it works correctly)
Don't Like:
Lane Departure Assist/Warning
Adaptive Cruise (or even regular cruise!)
Any other self-driving tech
I've said this before and I'll say it again: I wish some automaker would produce a barebones workhorse car or truck for about $20k without all these fancy features. Give me manual cloth seats, an A/C, a heater, and a fuel-efficient engine and I'll be good to go.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.
....
That's what insurance (typically "comprehensive coverage") is for.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
3. I always assume no one on the road today has a clue about how to drive. I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.
That's a very strange assumption to hold (no one has a clue), and I don't quite understand the basis of your opinion. Are you that type of guy who lets that one driver, who cut you off an hour ago, totally ruin your day?
I'm 25 and I would argue that the vast majority of drivers are actually quite acceptable. Is everyone amazing? Not exactly, but ~98% of drivers are competent enough that I would trust them to drive me from place to place. It's that other 2% who are bad enough that, for whatever reason, they are the only things people remember: that guy who cut you off, that guy who didn't signal, that guy who didn't wave "thanks", that guy who was woefully exceeding the limit without regard for others, so on.
Just try not to get too high and mighty: you may think you're good, but so does everyone else right up until they plow into the back of that Sienna. You want safety features for that one time you fuck up.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
3. I always assume no one on the road today has a clue about how to drive. I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.
That's a very strange assumption to hold (no one has a clue), and I don't quite understand the basis of your opinion. Are you that type of guy who lets that one driver, who cut you off an hour ago, totally ruin your day?
I'm 25 and I would argue that the vast majority of drivers are actually quite acceptable. Is everyone amazing? Not exactly, but ~98% of drivers are competent enough that I would trust them to drive me from place to place. It's that other 2% who are bad enough that, for whatever reason, they are the only things people remember: that guy who cut you off, that guy who didn't signal, that guy who didn't wave "thanks", that guy who was woefully exceeding the limit without regard for others, so on.
Just try not to get too high and mighty: you may think you're good, but so does everyone else right up until they plow into the back of that Sienna. You want safety features for that one time you fuck up.
It doesn't ruin my day but it's certainly discourteous. We go through all this effort to license drivers, but then don't scrutinize their driving and/or enforce the traffic laws.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 01:43:59 PM
I would argue that the vast majority of drivers are actually quite acceptable. Is everyone amazing? Not exactly, but ~98% of drivers are competent enough that I would trust them to drive me from place to place. It's that other 2% who are bad enough that, for whatever reason, they are the only things people remember: that guy who cut you off, that guy who didn't signal, that guy who didn't wave "thanks", that guy who was woefully exceeding the limit without regard for others, so on.
That's probably fair - although I think it would be closer to 50-50 in terms of whether, as a passenger, I'd be actively paying attention about their driving, and that's not usually a good thing.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.
You sure those things used to be better? Or that there aren't
other things that used to be worse than now, but that you just don't notice?
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 02:44:26 PM
It doesn't ruin my day but it's certainly discourteous. We go through all this effort to license drivers, but then don't scrutinize their driving and/or enforce the traffic laws.
In an average state, the effort is:
Pay $10 to get a permit. Prove you are you.
Take eye exam. Use any corrective vision option available to allow test passage.
In some states: Supervised, instructed behind the wheel training.
In some states: Adult-supervised driving (honor system).
50 question test, half of which deals with intoxication.
Road test, done in parking lot at speeds below 25 mph.
Pay for license.
The effort to provide you harassment education, with supportive acknowledgment, at a workplace takes longer than it does to get a driver's license in this country. And you have to take that every year or two. A drivers license is for life.
Most perceive driving to be a right and not a privilege in this country, and any attempts to curtail this freedom - through stricter licensing requirements or mandated, thorough vehicle inspections - is often shot down.
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
I just moved to Kentucky where the inspection was nothing more than a "that'll do" from the sheriff. So many trucks down here are jacked up with unnecessary lifts that make them a danger to others in a collision or outfitted with smokestacks. Cars with rotting frames. Lights burned out galore.
In other countries, driving is a privilege and is treated as such. Inspections can be an expensive, laborious process. Driving tests can be equally demanding and need to be taken every few years. Fines for infractions are costly.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Compared to 6% in Florida.
Actually, a Florida dealer can re-coup the entire sales tax of the county you live in; 6% is the base for the entire state, but it can be higher depending on your county of residence, not the county you buy it from. There might be a work-around if you want to report the taxes yourself, but it's one of the few things the dealer can't actually profit from.
I've already mentioned lots of times which features I like and don't like on this forum. I don't mind the blind-spot system (though mostly that's because I've experienced them while driving an unfamiliar car, so I would probably shut it off after a few months) and the back-up cameras (same reasons, but it assists with backing into parking spaces).
The lane-keeping garbage, cruise-control tracking, pre-collision avoidance warning beeps are just plain annoying "features" and seems like expensive beta testing for the hypothetical
The Car Of The Future.
ABS has pretty much been a given for the past 20 years, traction control a standard feature for over 10 years...you really have to go for an older car to get vehicles without them. At that point, you might have less desirable choices, or you're trading the avoidance of one feature at the expense of a potentially worn-out issue which can't be avoided.
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.
My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it. Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work. But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle. All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
Quote from: formulanone on February 18, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Compared to 6% in Florida.
Actually, a Florida dealer can re-coup the entire sales tax of the county you live in; 6% is the base for the entire state, but it can be higher depending on your county of residence, not the county you buy it from. There might be a work-around if you want to report the taxes yourself, but it's one of the few things the dealer can't actually profit from.
I've already mentioned lots of times which features I like and don't like on this forum. I don't mind the blind-spot system (though mostly that's because I've experienced them while driving an unfamiliar car, so I would probably shut it off after a few months) and the back-up cameras (same reasons, but it assists with backing into parking spaces).
The lane-keeping garbage, cruise-control tracking, pre-collision avoidance warning beeps are just plain annoying "features" and seems like expensive beta testing for the hypothetical The Car Of The Future.
ABS has pretty much been a given for the past 20 years, traction control a standard feature for over 10 years...you really have to go for an older car to get vehicles without them. At that point, you might have less desirable choices, or you're trading the avoidance of one feature at the expense of a potentially worn-out issue which can't be avoided.
At the time it would have been Orange County. The savings on taxes alone from what I recall were over $1,000 dollars compared to if I had purchased in California.
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.
You sure those things used to be better? Or that there aren't other things that used to be worse than now, but that you just don't notice?
No, but I'm sure at one point they were worse.
Quote from: 1 on February 18, 2021, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
CEL light
I think your car has RAS syndrome.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgif-free.com%2Fuploads%2Fposts%2F2018-02%2F1519202898_problem-child-facepalm.gif&hash=86f89c40cb06ac674dd7ca4dc81797f58fc439ed)
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.
....
That's what insurance (typically "comprehensive coverage") is for.
That doesn't mean the cost doesn't exist, it just means it's spread out to everybody, even people who don't have cameras or sonars in their windshield.
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
I have the adaptive cruise control in mine and it keeps the speed that I set it at going downhill.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
I have an automatic (with adaptive) that will maintain speed in hilly terrain (using brakes automatically took keep that speed) regardless of whether its adaptive cruise or not. Problem is it also has a hysteresis problem where it will go slow up and fast over.
I love the adaptive cruise. It's perfect for moderate traffic situations so you're not constantly hitting the brakes and then restarting the cruise once you're around someone going more slowly. I can even use it in the mountains out here if there are other cars around because it will slow me down on turns to match the other cars ahead of me. When entering a town (speedtrap) on a rural highway, if there is a car in front of you, you'll automatically drop down to the reduced speed limit. The only time I really take it off outside of the city is for inclement weather.
Chris
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.
My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it. Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work. But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle. All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.
Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.
Quote from: jayhawkco on February 21, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
I love the adaptive cruise. It's perfect for moderate traffic situations so you're not constantly hitting the brakes and then restarting the cruise once you're around someone going more slowly. I can even use it in the mountains out here if there are other cars around because it will slow me down on turns to match the other cars ahead of me. When entering a town (speedtrap) on a rural highway, if there is a car in front of you, you'll automatically drop down to the reduced speed limit. The only time I really take it off outside of the city is for inclement weather.
Chris
I agree. I was in the mountains last week and around Mt. Mitchell. It worked pretty good in the mountains but a few times did take awhile to speed up.
OP is going to be old and lose a step one day. Would you rather have the assist or lose your license?
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
My 6MT Golf has cruise control, which I use frequently, especially in school zones where I can set it all the way down to 15. From my experience, it seems to hold it right around the speed that I set, give or take a few miles-per-hour. The only awkward thing about the cruise control is trying to change gears. Many systems seem to cancel when you push in the clutch, but VW's system maintains the cruise. The car stops accelerating when you push in the clutch, and then resumes after you've finished changing gear. It's sort of like changing gear for someone else. Really odd. But it works.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on February 21, 2021, 03:05:21 PM
OP is going to be old and lose a step one day. Would you rather have the assist or lose your license?
That's assumptive, I know plenty of people who never made to what would normally be considered "old." Also, how do you know the OP (who doesn't advertise his age) isn't "old" already? Also, what is your Mendoza Line for "old?"
Quote from: kkt on February 21, 2021, 11:47:14 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.
....
That's what insurance (typically "comprehensive coverage") is for.
That doesn't mean the cost doesn't exist, it just means it's spread out to everybody, even people who don't have cameras or sonars in their windshield.
$1,000 extra to "recalibrate" the system? Nah.
I have one windshield replacement per year under my plan which was needed because of where I lived (near mines) at one point. I'd go through a windshield a year. With my Subaru Outback with Eyesight, the windshield could be replaced (and Eyesight recalibrated) for just $200 (it wasn't a 100% coverage plan). They did not charge extra to "recalibrate" Eyesight - although Subaru's recalibration was more sensitive and required more work than Toyota's and Honda's systems at the time.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 21, 2021, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.
My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it. Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work. But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle. All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.
Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.
If the car frame is rusted to the point where it would fail inspection, I'd say that it's not safe. My Mom had a car like that when I was young. It rusted out to the point where Dad didn't trust it for anything beyond the local area (resulting in the purchase of a used Ford Taurus) years before it got to the point where it couldn't pass inspection.
I never had a car but i've driven a 2017 Audi Q5 and it has park assist. I don't need (or want) any of that fancy stuff as a first driver. Cause I'm afraid that I'll crash it and I have little to no experience driving.
Everyone keeps talking about Cruise Control. Is that some new feature in cars or what? :sombrero:
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.
Count me in as another person who doesn't really like driver-assist features. Much of what they help with can be at least partly mitigated by just being a safe, defensive driver. That being said, some of them seem like they would be worth it.
Here's my list of features I do and do not like:
Like:
Airbags
ABS/Traction Control
Backup Camera
Auto Emergency Braking/Warning (if it works correctly)
Don't Like:
Lane Departure Assist/Warning
Adaptive Cruise (or even regular cruise!)
Any other self-driving tech
I've said this before and I'll say it again: I wish some automaker would produce a barebones workhorse car or truck for about $20k without all these fancy features. Give me manual cloth seats, an A/C, a heater, and a fuel-efficient engine and I'll be good to go.
You've more or less summarized my current ride. 2011 Honda Civic, I got the step up from the most basic Civic offered at the time. It actually has manual door locks (and no one riding as a passenger understands that I cannot lock or unlock the doors without putting the key in the door). No Cruise Control, basic CD Player. Cloth unheated seats that adjust manually. manually adjusted mirrors. Power windows, Automatic Transmission though. Ten years and over 207k miles and runs great. I will say the Blind Spot detection would be the only thing I could have possibly used twice, but after realizing that the car had blind spots I learned and adjusted. Obviously I love it! I drive a bus so I use the mirrors for backing.
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
Most perceive driving to be a right and not a privilege in this country, and any attempts to curtail this freedom - through stricter licensing requirements or mandated, thorough vehicle inspections - is often shot down.
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
I just moved to Kentucky where the inspection was nothing more than a "that'll do" from the sheriff. So many trucks down here are jacked up with unnecessary lifts that make them a danger to others in a collision or outfitted with smokestacks. Cars with rotting frames. Lights burned out galore.
In other countries, driving is a privilege and is treated as such. Inspections can be an expensive, laborious process. Driving tests can be equally demanding and need to be taken every few years. Fines for infractions are costly.
My first car, which I did not have one of my own until I was in my twenties was a used 1990 Dodge Omni. It suffered the collision of the Hippies, I had hair down past my ass and so did everyone in the van that changed lanes into me, although I was driving in a Center Turn Lane. Anyways, the car was still driveable but the right quarter panel had been pushed back. The right passenger door could no longer be opened but the window still rolled down for convenient passenger entrance and egress. My dad and I Bungee Corded and Duct Taped the damaged quarter panel together and I used a 12 oz clear milk jug for a Turn Signal, also Duct Taped to the car. I also had to Duct Tape the Air Bag back into the steering wheel. In certain neighborhoods other drivers gave me the Right of Way with that car regardless of what the signals said. I told a young woman from Germany riding on Amtrak about my Omni and how it was actually street legal in the State of Ohio and her mouth dropped open...
I've driven a rental with the lane thing and didn't much like it. If enough people complain and the auto manufacturers figure out that the market doesn't like it they will either modify it or remove it altogether. Remember Automatic Seat Belts, although they were no longer required after the side air bags came standard many people would unfasten the things so they were doing less than a regular seat belt. If people disable the Lane Departure then it is basically useless as well. Surprise, you can count me in as not wanting to pay extra for it.
Jim
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 21, 2021, 10:22:52 PM
I never had a car but i've driven a 2017 Audi Q5 and it has park assist. I don't need (or want) any of that fancy stuff as a first driver. Cause I'm afraid that I'll crash it and I have little to no experience driving.
The first time I let my adaptive cruise control stop on it's own I thought what if I don't stop that wouldn't be good so I had the cruise set as low as it goes 20 mph and it came to a stop. I thought it was cool.
Quote from: vdeane on February 21, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 21, 2021, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.
My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it. Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work. But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle. All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.
Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.
If the car frame is rusted to the point where it would fail inspection, I'd say that it's not safe. My Mom had a car like that when I was young. It rusted out to the point where Dad didn't trust it for anything beyond the local area (resulting in the purchase of a used Ford Taurus) years before it got to the point where it couldn't pass inspection.
I get the sentiment both ways. My still-yet-to-be-paid-off Subaru is already rusting extensively - small specs on the side here and there, brake calipers that just rusted apart after going through some deep water on a recent drive here in Kentucky, and an engine block that my mechanic (in Kentucky) thought was salvaged. I had some parts that failed to work properly because they had essentially rusted shut :(
But... maintenance of a car is something that must be taken into account over the lifetime of a vehicle. Driving is still a privilege, not a right, and while inspections are not costly in New York, the repairs to a vehicle can be but it ultimately leaves vehicles - 3 ton objects, safer for the driver and safer for other motorists. As I said before, I'm just appalled at the condition of the cars that are on the road down here in Kentucky versus New York.
(And I'm all for salt / calcium chloride reduction. They are over applied and destroy environments.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
It comes down to how the cruise control is implemented and what kind of transmission you have.
Earlier CC systems were mechanical. The throttle cable would pass through a device that, when activated, would hold the cable in that position and move it forwards or backwards to adjust speed. At least that's how it worked in my '95 Buick Lesabre. There was no communication with the transmission; the throttle was simply actuated based on the voltage generated from the speed sensor. The 4T60-E on those cars was electronically controlled but it was before the CAN bus existed so systems couldn't communicate with each other.
Now, on my '07 Civic, its much different. It has an electronically-controlled throttle, so CC is implemented by the CC module directly modulating the butterfly valve. But in addition to that, because it has a CAN bus, the transmission can be commanded to upshift or downshift based on not just the engine load, but also the throttle position and vehicle speed. Even when CC isn't on, the transmission is very good at detecting when I'm going up a hill because it's constantly reading engine load values and input/output shaft speeds. And it's insanely accurate.
CC on manual transmissions -- theres not much you can do with it because of the nature of its design. All the module can really do is modulate the throttle position and hope you know when to downshift.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 21, 2021, 04:46:14 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on February 21, 2021, 03:05:21 PM
OP is going to be old and lose a step one day. Would you rather have the assist or lose your license?
That's assumptive, I know plenty of people who never made to what would normally be considered "old." Also, how do you know the OP (who doesn't advertise his age) isn't "old" already? Also, what is your Mendoza Line for "old?"
It also varies. For many people "Old" is when they hit the gas rather than the brake, sending their car into a store. Or turning in front of a 18 wheeler that they never saw.
In either case, by then it's too late to say that person shouldn't have been driving, and you hope that they didn't injure or kill others. At minimum, that 'old' person disturbed the livelihood for those they impacted.
So, yes, believe it or not those assist features will be useful, especially for the victims that were just minding their own business. We never know when we become old.
My issue with assists is when they reach the point of taking control of the car out of my hands. I don't trust the computer to be a better driver than me. This isn't a distrust of the computer itself so much as it's a healthy distrust of the humans doing the programming, speaking as a programmer myself! Bugs happen!
I don't have a problem with an assist that notifies me of something. I try very hard to be a good driver, but I know I'm not perfect, and if a blind spot detection assist happens to catch that one moment on a bad day when I've got a lot on my mind and I don't see something I should have, and warn me before that oversight becomes a dangerous mistake, that's great.
I don't want my car braking on its own, though. Because if it malfunctions somehow and it brakes for no reason at the wrong time, that could be every bit as deadly as failure to brake when it's needed. Notify me, yes, but don't take control out of my hands.
As for traction/stability control, my current car has it, and... I don't hate it. The designers of the system for my car at least seem to have done a very good job of making it non-intrusive; I can only think of one time in the seven years I've owned the car that it has engaged, and that was when I hit an imperfection in the pavement during a turn that caused one of the rear wheels to unweight a bit while I was accelerating.
What I do hate is the first-to-fourth skip shift (where if I am light on the throttle starting, instead of letting me shift to second it will gate out second and force me into fourth)! But that isn't safety equipment, that's a fuel economy thing. The reason I hate it is the two times when it always activates are the two times I really don't want it to - in parking lots, and in stop-and-go traffic. This I will be disabling very soon now that my car is out of warranty.
And then there's the Hill Start assist, which I have a love-hate relationship with. I don't need it - I know how to start on a hill with a manual just fine, thanks. But it is convenient. Except that it seems a little flaky about when it does and doesn't activate and that can make it more trouble than its worth (and may have something to do with my distrust of other assists!)
I have many driver assist features on my car, including adaptive cruise, auto emergency brake, lane departure and blind spot warning, lane keep assist, rear cross-traffic alert, and more. I use them pretty much any and every time I drive. I don't see the point in not using them or avoiding purchasing a car equipped with them. I already know that I can drive: I have a license, I've never been in a crash, I've never gotten a traffic ticket, and I rarely get honked at. Would you rather be in a crash and deal with thousands of dollars in damage/costs, possibly totaling your car, increased insurance premiums, trauma, or worse because you "know how to drive and don't need them" or simply take advantage of technology that can easily prevent or significantly reduce the severity of an accident? Yes, these features are not perfect and should not replace an attentive and knowledgeable driver, but if you combine the two, it's a big safety improvement overall. If you think these features are "annoying" you should probably take a look at your driving skills. When it beeps at you, it means you are doing something wrong.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2021, 08:28:24 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 21, 2021, 10:22:52 PM
I never had a car but i've driven a 2017 Audi Q5 and it has park assist. I don't need (or want) any of that fancy stuff as a first driver. Cause I'm afraid that I'll crash it and I have little to no experience driving.
The first time I let my adaptive cruise control stop on it's own I thought what if I don't stop that wouldn't be good so I had the cruise set as low as it goes 20 mph and it came to a stop. I thought it was cool.
It don't even have that
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM
And then there's the Hill Start assist, which I have a love-hate relationship with. I don't need it - I know how to start on a hill with a manual just fine, thanks. But it is convenient. Except that it seems a little flaky about when it does and doesn't activate and that can make it more trouble than its worth (and may have something to do with my distrust of other assists!)
There's always the hand brake.
I once drove my now-mother-in-law's Ford Mustang across Branson, Missouri. I'd never driven it before. The clutch was almost completely shot, to the point that the pedal was almost completely up before it would grab. I got a red light on an Ozark uphill, and the driver behind me didn't leave much rollback room. Loved the hand brake!
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 09:55:11 AM
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM
And then there's the Hill Start assist, which I have a love-hate relationship with. I don't need it - I know how to start on a hill with a manual just fine, thanks. But it is convenient. Except that it seems a little flaky about when it does and doesn't activate and that can make it more trouble than its worth (and may have something to do with my distrust of other assists!)
There's always the hand brake.
I once drove my now-mother-in-law's Ford Mustang across Branson, Missouri. I'd never driven it before. The clutch was almost completely shot, to the point that the pedal was almost completely up before it would grab. I got a red light on an Ozark uphill, and the driver behind me didn't leave much rollback room. Loved the hand brake!
I try and trick my VW (which has hill-hold) into letting me use the handbrake on hills, but I have to completely let go of the brake and rely solely on the handbrake to do so. So learning hill-holds in my manual has been a long process, as I don't like putting unnecessary stress on my handbrake.
But that's fine, since I live in a city with
hills like this (https://goo.gl/maps/myzthP86kMrpKwg58) (the carved-up sidewalk should be a good example of how steep this street is), where hill-hold is extremely helpful. I've seen older trucks and cars with manuals, driven by middle-aged and older people (aka: experienced!) struggle to get up that hill in their non-hill-hold-equipped vehicles. Like, repeated stalling levels of difficulty. This was exacerbated early on by the top of the hill being a two-way stop for years.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 09:55:11 AM
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM
And then there's the Hill Start assist, which I have a love-hate relationship with. I don't need it - I know how to start on a hill with a manual just fine, thanks. But it is convenient. Except that it seems a little flaky about when it does and doesn't activate and that can make it more trouble than its worth (and may have something to do with my distrust of other assists!)
There's always the hand brake.
I once drove my now-mother-in-law's Ford Mustang across Branson, Missouri. I'd never driven it before. The clutch was almost completely shot, to the point that the pedal was almost completely up before it would grab. I got a red light on an Ozark uphill, and the driver behind me didn't leave much rollback room. Loved the hand brake!
I mean, as noted, I don't have any problem starting on a hill without the assist. It's just the unpredictability of whether it's going to activate or not gets a little exasperating. The bigger problem is when it activates when I'm not expecting it, rather than not activating when I am (because if I'm on a hill steep enough to worry about it? I'm not putting my faith in that thing anyway!)
Don't you have an indicator or hear the brake activate and release? Because that's the indicator to know when it's working or not. It doesn't activate when you aren't expecting it - it's a user input that activates it. I use it in the Subaru all the time to prevent rollback - I press a button, the electronic parking brake engages. Once I attempt to start out, the electronic parking brake disengages and I can safely maneuver out.
Quote from: seicer on February 24, 2021, 09:09:03 PM
Don't you have an indicator or hear the brake activate and release? Because that's the indicator to know when it's working or not. It doesn't activate when you aren't expecting it - it's a user input that activates it. I use it in the Subaru all the time to prevent rollback - I press a button, the electronic parking brake engages. Once I attempt to start out, the electronic parking brake disengages and I can safely maneuver out.
Hill hold is a different feature. It holds the car in place for a few moments after letting off the brake to give you time to accelerate, activating automatically at a certain incline whenever the brake pedal is depressed. It prevents rollbacks. Particularly helpful for manual drivers who are ostensibly in neutral when stopped and don't have the added benefit of being in gear all the time (which naturally causes the car to move when the engine is on in an automatic).
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM
My issue with assists is when they reach the point of taking control of the car out of my hands. I don't trust the computer to be a better driver than me. This isn't a distrust of the computer itself so much as it's a healthy distrust of the humans doing the programming, speaking as a programmer myself! Bugs happen!
But just because your car doesn't have one, the car in front of you, behind you, and on either side of you may have one. How often have you been hit by another car due to their car's computer having bugs and suddenly brakes or speeds up into you?
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PMQuote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PMI just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.
Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.
My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it. Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work. But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle. All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
I'm happy not to have to deal with the compliance red tape in a typical Northeast state, where you just have to show clean OBD-II to pass emissions. I've heard horror stories about the California smog test. On the other hand, on car forums it does irritate me a little when a poster identifies himself (it is nearly always a he) as living in Kansas and then goes on to brag about replacing the catalytic converter with a straight pipe.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PMEarlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
It really isn't anything to do with manual versus automatic. It has more to do with whether the ECM has been programmed to sense hills and hold the set speed both uphill and downhill, insofar as this is possible without added input from the driver. Toyota added this logic in the mid-noughties as (so far as I can tell) a corporate-wide decision.
Once I took a 2005 Toyota Camry over the Fred Hartman Bridge in Houston, with the cruise control set at the speed limit of 60. The cable-stayed span has a fairly steep climb and descent to clear a shipping channel. On the climb everyone else was slowing down, so I was in the left lane passing them all, at 60. On the descent everyone else was speeding up, so I was in the right lane being passed by them all, at 60.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 25, 2021, 12:12:08 AM
Once I took a 2005 Toyota Camry over the Fred Hartman Bridge in Houston, with the cruise control set at the speed limit of 60. The cable-stayed span has a fairly steep climb and descent to clear a shipping channel. On the climb everyone else was slowing down, so I was in the left lane passing them all, at 60. On the descent everyone else was speeding up, so I was in the right lane being passed by them all, at 60.
There is something remarkably comedic about the thought of you (of all people) blowing the doors off other cars in a 2005 Camry.
As long as it still has a steering wheel and at least 2 pedals on the floor, I'm good with whatever else is added.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 25, 2021, 12:12:08 AM
On the other hand, on car forums it does irritate me a little when a poster identifies himself (it is nearly always a he) as living in Kansas and then goes on to brag about replacing the catalytic converter with a straight pipe.
In our old Grand Caravan, we drove it about 100,000 miles and at least six years with the cat installed
backwards and the downstream O
2 sensor completely broken off against the heat shield. Don't hate me.
Our current vehicle has had two CEL codes for catalyst inefficiency since we bought it 4½ years and 63,000 miles ago, and even my mechanic has never even suggested doing anything to fix it.
Granted, neither instance is as egregious as installing a straight pipe. On the other hand, our American friends living in Mexico once came back to their parallel-parked vehicle to find that someone had stolen all four catalytic converters out from under it, presumably to sell them for cash. I bet it's really tempting to just bypass them!
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:32:57 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 25, 2021, 12:12:08 AM
Once I took a 2005 Toyota Camry over the Fred Hartman Bridge in Houston, with the cruise control set at the speed limit of 60. The cable-stayed span has a fairly steep climb and descent to clear a shipping channel. On the climb everyone else was slowing down, so I was in the left lane passing them all, at 60. On the descent everyone else was speeding up, so I was in the right lane being passed by them all, at 60.
There is something remarkably comedic about the thought of you (of all people) blowing the doors off other cars in a 2005 Camry.
There is something slightly comedic about Jonathan passing
anybody, for that matter...
FWIW, I slow down on steep up-hills and speed up on steep down-hills also. My general rule is that I try not to let the automatic transmission downshift more than once on inclines–twice on really steep ones. In the Missouri Ozarks, this often leaves me doing 50 in a 65. And then I have no problem letting momentum carry me up to 80 on the other side. I don't use cruise control at all on steep hills, no matter which side of the crest.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:32:57 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 25, 2021, 12:12:08 AM
Once I took a 2005 Toyota Camry over the Fred Hartman Bridge in Houston, with the cruise control set at the speed limit of 60. The cable-stayed span has a fairly steep climb and descent to clear a shipping channel. On the climb everyone else was slowing down, so I was in the left lane passing them all, at 60. On the descent everyone else was speeding up, so I was in the right lane being passed by them all, at 60.
There is something remarkably comedic about the thought of you (of all people) blowing the doors off other cars in a 2005 Camry.
I get a kick out of doing this in my little car; I downshift at the bottom of the hill, give it just a little more gas, and pass nearly everyone who started out at 75-80 and wound up at 50-55 (or less).
Quote from: jakeroot on February 24, 2021, 09:51:23 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 24, 2021, 09:09:03 PM
Don't you have an indicator or hear the brake activate and release? Because that's the indicator to know when it's working or not. It doesn't activate when you aren't expecting it - it's a user input that activates it. I use it in the Subaru all the time to prevent rollback - I press a button, the electronic parking brake engages. Once I attempt to start out, the electronic parking brake disengages and I can safely maneuver out.
Hill hold is a different feature. It holds the car in place for a few moments after letting off the brake to give you time to accelerate, activating automatically at a certain incline whenever the brake pedal is depressed. It prevents rollbacks. Particularly helpful for manual drivers who are ostensibly in neutral when stopped and don't have the added benefit of being in gear all the time (which naturally causes the car to move when the engine is on in an automatic).
The Subaru hill hold is a feature that you can toggle on and off and leave it set. You don't have to press it at each hill. When it is toggled on, then the actual hill hold feature as described works on its own. I have that in mine, but it's an automatic and i can't really find a reason to use it.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on February 25, 2021, 12:20:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 24, 2021, 09:51:23 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 24, 2021, 09:09:03 PM
Don't you have an indicator or hear the brake activate and release? Because that's the indicator to know when it's working or not. It doesn't activate when you aren't expecting it - it's a user input that activates it. I use it in the Subaru all the time to prevent rollback - I press a button, the electronic parking brake engages. Once I attempt to start out, the electronic parking brake disengages and I can safely maneuver out.
Hill hold is a different feature. It holds the car in place for a few moments after letting off the brake to give you time to accelerate, activating automatically at a certain incline whenever the brake pedal is depressed. It prevents rollbacks. Particularly helpful for manual drivers who are ostensibly in neutral when stopped and don't have the added benefit of being in gear all the time (which naturally causes the car to move when the engine is on in an automatic).
The Subaru hill hold is a feature that you can toggle on and off and leave it set. You don't have to press it at each hill. When it is toggled on, then the actual hill hold feature as described works on its own. I have that in mine, but it's an automatic and i can't really find a reason to use it.
My Golf does not have any button that I can use to quickly activate or deactivate the hill hold like some vehicles, unfortunately, although I can fully disable it through the OBD port. Some cars have buttons to control the parking brake (like
seicer's vehicle, it seems), but this is unrelated to the operation of hill hold which simply maintains the brake pressure automatically until X-number of seconds has passed, or the throttle is depressed. The parking brake is quite obviously unrelated to the brake pedal.
Quote from: seicer on February 24, 2021, 09:09:03 PM
Don't you have an indicator or hear the brake activate and release? Because that's the indicator to know when it's working or not. It doesn't activate when you aren't expecting it - it's a user input that activates it. I use it in the Subaru all the time to prevent rollback - I press a button, the electronic parking brake engages. Once I attempt to start out, the electronic parking brake disengages and I can safely maneuver out.
Hill-Start Assist in my car (2014 Camaro SS) is
automatic, there's not a user input to activate it. The computer decides when to engage it. And no, the brake engaging is not audible, or at least if it is, it's not loud enough that I have ever noticed it. It displays a "Hill Start Assist is Active" message on the Driver Information Display (which is in the middle of the instrument panel), but I often don't look at the instrument panel when I am stopped except possibly to check temperature and oil pressure (which I do somewhat habitually after having a 1965 Mustang as my daily driver for years), and don't look at it terribly often when moving, either, since I have a heads-up display that shows me my speed.
So frequently, my first awareness that it has engaged is a higher-than-expected amount of resistance when I start the car rolling forward, which if I was being light on the throttle (behind someone who is accelerating slowly, perhaps), might not quite be enough and forces me to add a bit more power quickly to avoid killing the engine. It's really only a problem when it sometimes oddly decides to engage on hills that are so slight that I didn't even realize I was on a slope at all.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2021, 10:05:16 PM
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 23, 2021, 08:23:29 PM
My issue with assists is when they reach the point of taking control of the car out of my hands. I don't trust the computer to be a better driver than me. This isn't a distrust of the computer itself so much as it's a healthy distrust of the humans doing the programming, speaking as a programmer myself! Bugs happen!
But just because your car doesn't have one, the car in front of you, behind you, and on either side of you may have one. How often have you been hit by another car due to their car's computer having bugs and suddenly brakes or speeds up into you?
I've never seen an automated assist that would result in speeding up. And if such a thing exists, that would be a bad design in my opinion.
If someone in front of me brakes suddenly, it doesn't matter whether it was the computer or the driver braking, it's my responsibility as a driver to maintain a reasonable following distance so that I have time to react to their sudden braking.
I'm not responsible for what someone else's car does, but I am responsible for what my car does, and as such I want to be in control of it!
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Given my specific situation (manual transmission, very hilly city), I don't see what I would gain by being able to enable/disable hill hold on the fly.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Given my specific situation (manual transmission, very hilly city), I don't see what I would gain by being able to enable/disable hill hold on the fly.
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
The only advanced driver assistance feature my TL has is blind spot monitoring, which I've actually found useful over the years. A few months ago I was cruising on I-64 at night and didn't see another car on the road, and suddenly my blind spot monitor lit up. Right after that a car with no lights on flew past me going close to 100.
I find blind-spot monitoring very useful for larger SUVs where it can be difficult in even the best scenarios to see a clearing.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Given my specific situation (manual transmission, very hilly city), I don't see what I would gain by being able to enable/disable hill hold on the fly.
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
I find it remarkable that someone could drive a car for even a year without realizing it can hold itself at a 3% grade.
There is a lot of forums dedicated to people trying to turn off hill hold. Main argument is something along the lines of "if you can drive a manual properly, you don't need a computer to hold the car for you". Which is fine on the small hills around DC. Try living without hill hold in San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Duluth, etc. It's fun at first and then it just gets annoying.
Seriously: I'd love to see some of the manual drivers on this forum drive up
Marion St in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/3R8A1tSfhrEy7vpP7) during rush hour without some form of hill assist. Seattleites did it for years, to be fair...maybe that's why the "I drive manual" stickers are everywhere around here...
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 25, 2021, 07:25:25 PM
If someone in front of me brakes suddenly, it doesn't matter whether it was the computer or the driver braking, it's my responsibility as a driver to maintain a reasonable following distance so that I have time to react to their sudden braking.
But it's not a matter of laying blame. It's a matter of the accident happening in the first place.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2021, 12:56:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Given my specific situation (manual transmission, very hilly city), I don't see what I would gain by being able to enable/disable hill hold on the fly.
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
I find it remarkable that someone could drive a car for even a year without realizing it can hold itself at a 3% grade.
Being from central Oklahoma, I have no idea what a 3% grade
is. Although I probably got one once in the math class where they taught us how to do the rise over run slope equation.
For real, in Norman, I'm struggling to think of any slope more extreme than you might encounter at a freeway interchange.
For a freeway, per AASHTO, max. grades are 3% for flat terrain, 4% for rolling terrain and 5% for mountainous terrain.
Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2021, 02:33:20 PM
Quote from: Stormwalker on February 25, 2021, 07:25:25 PM
If someone in front of me brakes suddenly, it doesn't matter whether it was the computer or the driver braking, it's my responsibility as a driver to maintain a reasonable following distance so that I have time to react to their sudden braking.
But it's not a matter of laying blame. It's a matter of the accident happening in the first place.
And if I am driving correctly, the accident will not happen regardless of whether their car brakes for no apparent reason, because
I won't hit them.This actually brings me to another reason I wouldn't want my car to brake for me. I drive a performance car. It has very good brakes. If I overreact to something on the road and apply full braking when I shouldn't, there is a very good chance I will be hit from behind, because other cars can't stop as quickly as mine can. I had this situation just the other day, when someone on the Dallas North Tollway cut off the driver in front of me, who then overreacted and stepped very hard on his brakes. I had allowed a reasonable following distance, and so I was able to come to a stop safely without needing to apply full brake power. Even with this, the SUV behind me (who had not allowed enough following distance) got uncomfortably close, and the truck behind him (who was blatantly tailgating) had to swerve onto the shoulder to avoid him. If I had slammed on my brakes in this situation, there would certainly have been a multi-car pileup as the SUV behind me plowed into me and then the truck plowed into him.
There is a level of nuance and judgement involved in making these decisions. I don't doubt that computers are capable of making them... and I don't doubt that a computer is capable of doing it better than I can since the computer can calculate rate of closure and rate of deceleration, as well as braking force required, on the fly, much faster than I can. But these technologies are programmed by humans who make mistakes, and they haven't been around all that long yet. As such, I don't think they have seen enough iterations in development and improvement for me to trust them quite yet. Not when I feel very confident in my ability to avoid these situations where I would need the assist to begin with by being a responsible, careful, and defensive driver.
I don't object to the technologies on principle. In fact, I think they will probably save a lot of lives. I just want to let the technology season a little longer before I trust it enough to have such a system in the car that I drive.
As it happens, I'm not too worried about it, because when I bought my Camaro, I bought it with the intention of driving it for at least 10 years. I've had it for almost 7 now, and only have 35,000 miles on it. I love it as much now as I did the day I bought it. So... I don't expect to be replacing it anytime soon.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:01:49 PMBeing from central Oklahoma, I have no idea what a 3% grade is. Although I probably got one once in the math class where they taught us how to do the rise over run slope equation.
For real, in Norman, I'm struggling to think of any slope more extreme than you might encounter at a freeway interchange.
I can promise there are 3% grades not far from you. The segment of I-35 between SH 33 near Guthrie and SH 51 near Stillwater comes to mind--there is a place in Logan County where it climbs 50 ft in 1905 ft, corresponding to an average grade of 2.6%. This is without getting into two-lane state highways, which typically have less forgiving geometry, or segments of I-35 further away, such as the long upgrade near Turner Falls for which a climbing lane is provided.
The stylized fact (and part of the motivation for the criteria Big John quotes) is that 3% is the maximum grade at which trucks will perform more or less as if they are on a level roadway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:01:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2021, 12:56:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 10:37:24 PM
Yikes. I had no idea that some of these features (like hill hold assist) are automatic. Even worse, it can't be disabled.
Given my specific situation (manual transmission, very hilly city), I don't see what I would gain by being able to enable/disable hill hold on the fly.
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
I find it remarkable that someone could drive a car for even a year without realizing it can hold itself at a 3% grade.
Being from central Oklahoma, I have no idea what a 3% grade is. Although I probably got one once in the math class where they taught us how to do the rise over run slope equation.
For real, in Norman, I'm struggling to think of any slope more extreme than you might encounter at a freeway interchange.
Quote from: Big John on February 26, 2021, 07:42:05 PM
For a freeway, per AASHTO, max. grades are 3% for flat terrain, 4% for rolling terrain and 5% for mountainous terrain.
Even in my own research, I found that 3% may be in excess of what actually triggers it. Even at very gentle slopes, it will hold the car.
Looking around the OKC area, some of the
loop ramps between freeways (https://goo.gl/maps/SwaJWj1nAR3kb7ko6) are easily steep enough to trigger it. Now I recognize that not everywhere has busy enough freeway ramps for this to ever become a genuine concern (although incidents could certainly cause unexpected slowdowns), but then hill hold really isn't for people in Norman. It's really designed for people who live in areas with a fair amount of traffic and at least rolling hills. So when someone from a flat area tells me this feature is superfluous or whatever, it strikes me as remarkably out of touch. If someone who didn't like it actually lived in a hilly area, even for a couple months, they'd very quickly learn to love it.
I guess it might be like me complaining about open top cars. But then Seattle isn't exactly the target audience for a cabriolet, so...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:01:49 PMBeing from central Oklahoma, I have no idea what a 3% grade is. Although I probably got one once in the math class where they taught us how to do the rise over run slope equation.
Haha, very well done. :D
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2021, 09:25:20 PM
Even in my own research, I found that 3% may be in excess of what actually triggers it. Even at very gentle slopes, it will hold the car.
Looking around the OKC area, some of the loop ramps between freeways (https://goo.gl/maps/SwaJWj1nAR3kb7ko6) are easily steep enough to trigger it. Now I recognize that not everywhere has busy enough freeway ramps for this to ever become a genuine concern (although incidents could certainly cause unexpected slowdowns), but then hill hold really isn't for people in Norman. It's really designed for people who live in areas with a fair amount of traffic and at least rolling hills. So when someone from a flat area tells me this feature is superfluous or whatever, it strikes me as remarkably out of touch. If someone who didn't like it actually lived in a hilly area, even for a couple months, they'd very quickly learn to love it.
I guess it might be like me complaining about open top cars. But then Seattle isn't exactly the target audience for a cabriolet, so...
I mean, I live in Dallas, and mine activates on hills that are, well... they're moderate hills by Dallas standards. Which means not particularly impressive by the standards of some other places. Dallas is fairly flat (though not quite as flat as some would claim). Occasionally it activates on things like the driveway in front of my garage, though, which isn't much of a slope at all. I mean, yes, if I put the car in neutral it would roll... slowly. Certainly not quickly enough to be an actual problem unless I completely ignored it. Even if someone was parked right behind me I'd be in no real danger of rolling back into them unless I was REALLY oblivious.
But I've certainly been to other places, and I lived in Yorktown Heights, NY for a couple of years, and while that isn't San Francisco, it certainly isn't flat, either! So I have some awareness of what driving in a hilly area is like, and I can certainly see how it would be an asset in those places.
Of course, I never actually said I thought the hill-start assist was superfluous. I said I don't NEED it (which is to say, I am capable of driving the car just fine without it)... but I actually do like the feature, except for the fact that it seems to be fairly inconsistent about the conditions under which it activates.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:59 AM
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
I don't think hill hold is comparable to things like advance breaking or lane keep assist. The car isn't really "doing things", it's more about what it's
not doing - namely, rolling back when moving your foot from the break to the gas. And at least on my Civic, if you really want to roll back, it will after a lag of about a second or so. It doesn't change how I drive at all, it's just a little more convenient, especially as people driving automatics don't expect the car in front of them to roll back.
Quote from: vdeane on February 26, 2021, 11:09:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:59 AM
I think the problem is when you have someone from a not very hilly city who drives the car for 10 years, then drives to Seattle and the car starts doing things of its own volition.
I don't think hill hold is comparable to things like advance breaking or lane keep assist. The car isn't really "doing things", it's more about what it's not doing - namely, rolling back when moving your foot from the break to the gas. And at least on my Civic, if you really want to roll back, it will after a lag of about a second or so. It doesn't change how I drive at all, it's just a little more convenient, especially as people driving automatics don't expect the car in front of them to roll back.
Sounds like the hill hold on your Civic doesn't apply as much brake as the hill assist on my Camaro, then, because it's definitely noticeable in that it slows the transition from being still to forward motion a bit when it's active.
It's not as pronounced as, say, leaving the parking brake on. But definitely noticeable.
Actually, I wonder if the Camaro's just takes a little longer to release than yours, and maybe that's why I notice it.
To be fair, I suspect Scott5114 doesn't often come to complete stops on freeway ramps and the I-35 mainline.
I know....I'm late to the thread...but I couldn't resist commenting here. (Hazard of my profession.)
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it.
And what if that feature saves you more than that amount in future insurance costs?
Auto insurance rates these days do factor in the experience of various driver-assist technologies....both the reduction in accident frequency, as well as the increased repair costs from the newer, specialized equipment.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 17, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
But if that costs me an extra $2000 then I don't want it.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
And what if that feature saves you more than that amount in future insurance costs?
Auto insurance rates these days do factor in the experience of various driver-assist technologies....both the reduction in accident frequency, as well as the increased repair costs from the newer, specialized equipment.
One of the unresolved issues in the autonomous vehicle industry is whether personal auto insurance will be able to pass the liability over to the vehicle manufacturer. For accidents occurring with the autonomous mode activated, there are concerns that insurers will be able to successfully argue that the manufacturers were previously held liable for similar accidents.
My point is not that there aren't 3% grades around here, but that people from around here are not likely to be able to understand a grade quoted as such, and thus knowing that my car is going to do something at x% grade doesn't allow me an appreciable metric to judge when the feature is going to kick in. And if I were used to its behavior on a 0% grade and expected that behavior to be consistent, then drove somewhere with hills, the inconsistency from what I was expecting could cause a problem.
Possibly. It sounds like hill hold isn't as intrusive as the other stuff mentioned in this thread. Definitely seems nice if you live in a hilly city. But if it was an option I would probably forego it because there's just plain not enough hills that I get stopped on for me to find it useful.
When I worked in San Francisco, a Utahn co-worker didn't curb the company car's wheels or set the hand brake and...we then had to replace a company car.
Another co-worker of mine from Norman, OK thought it was hilarious since he said even in OK, he was taught to curb wheels when parking on the very shallow slope in his neighborhood.
Yeah, part of the driver's test when I took it in 2006 was "pull over and park here and pretend you're on a hill". So I'm familiar with the concept of curbing the wheels, but I'm not entirely sure I remember which direction the wheels are supposed to face.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2021, 03:09:27 PM
Yeah, part of the driver's test when I took it in 2006 was "pull over and park here and pretend you're on a hill". So I'm familiar with the concept of curbing the wheels, but I'm not entirely sure I remember which direction the wheels are supposed to face.
Uphill w/ Curb - Away from the curb
Downhill w/ Curb - Towards the curb
No Curb (either direction) - Away from traffic (if you're parked on the right, turn to the right, and v.v.)
Chris
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2021, 03:09:27 PM
Yeah, part of the driver's test when I took it in 2006 was "pull over and park here and pretend you're on a hill". So I'm familiar with the concept of curbing the wheels, but I'm not entirely sure I remember which direction the wheels are supposed to face.
Just think about which way the car would go if it started going downhill.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2021, 03:09:27 PM
Yeah, part of the driver's test when I took it in 2006 was "pull over and park here and pretend you're on a hill". So I'm familiar with the concept of curbing the wheels, but I'm not entirely sure I remember which direction the wheels are supposed to face.
The theory is that if there is a curb, you turn the wheels so that the curb will help stop the car from rolling if the handbrake fails.
If there is no curb, you turn the wheels so that the car would roll in the direction away from passing traffic.
Based on my observations when I'm out walking, I'm the only person in my neighborhood who curbs his wheels. Of course, we don't have any steep hills either. I'm simply in the habit of doing it, in part because at one point DC was ticketing people who didn't and I made myself get into the habit in case I parked on a hill in DC.
Quote from: Rothman on February 28, 2021, 03:41:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2021, 03:09:27 PM
Yeah, part of the driver's test when I took it in 2006 was "pull over and park here and pretend you're on a hill". So I'm familiar with the concept of curbing the wheels, but I'm not entirely sure I remember which direction the wheels are supposed to face.
Just think about which way the car would go if it started going downhill.
This is the reason why the instructions are what they are, though be careful since it's in some ways counterintuitive. Indeed, you will sometimes see people get tripped up and turn their wheels towards the curb on an uphill - which may feel right intuitively but in fact is
worse than leaving them straight since this will steer the front of the car into the traffic lane(s).
Regarding the OP topic... I am not going to waste pixels repeating complaints that others have already lodged, however I will add one thing that does not seem to have been mentioned: the overdeployment of warning chimes.
I have rented Toyotas, for example, that will play a warning chime and pop up a message suggesting you take a break simply if you have been operating the vehicle for more than 2 hours continuously. This... no, this is not helpful.
Another common offending item is the thermometer. Outdoor temp drops below 35 or so, the car plays a loud warning chime and pops up a message saying "Caution: icy conditions possible". While the icy conditions popup is arguably helpful (and I have no problem with such a message popping up
quietly), the warning chime accompanying it is uncalled for.
As far as I am concerned, if I am driving and my car suddenly makes a loud noise, this should indicate that there is some urgent problem that requires my immediate attention - a door ajar, a seatbelt not fastened, a flat tire, an overheating engine, etc.
When warning chimes are used for non-urgent reasons, this will startle a driver who is not used to it, and once a driver does become used to it it risks losing effectiveness from overuse - such that when something actually
is urgent, the driver may not notice quickly since they will have been conditioned to largely ignore the warning chimes.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 28, 2021, 04:33:54 PM
I have rented Toyotas, for example, that will play a warning chime and pop up a message suggesting you take a break simply if you have been operating the vehicle for more than 2 hours continuously. This... no, this is not helpful.
Another common offending item is the thermometer. Outdoor temp drops below 35 or so, the car plays a loud warning chime and pops up a message saying "Caution: icy conditions possible". While the icy conditions popup is arguably helpful (and I have no problem with such a message popping up quietly), the warning chime accompanying it is uncalled for.
Subarus do this too, but the warning chime for that is more of a friendly, singular chirp. When it actually needs to warn you of something urgent, it'll loudly beep at you rapidly. Maybe Toyota should follow suit.
I try not to park on a grade, period, because curbing the tires flat-spots them. Thus, if I am obliged to park on a hill, I generally look for a relatively level street perpendicular to the slope.
The loudest sound I've ever heard come from a car was from my mom's Volkswagen Jetta. I was driving it down the interstate and out of nowhere came a very loud BEEEEEEEEP. After a few seconds of wearing off from the initial shock, I was able to find the culprit: the semi-annual TPMS light that always comes on after it gets cold in fall.
I took the next exit and pulled into a gas station to check my tire pressures. All were roughly 1-2 psi too low. I'm glad the warning light came on, but the reality is that you don't need a loud, loud noise to distract you from the interstate for a tire that's just slightly flat. For as much warning as I got, I'd expect my engine to be overheating or something.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 28, 2021, 04:33:54 PM
Another common offending item is the thermometer. Outdoor temp drops below 35 or so, the car plays a loud warning chime and pops up a message saying "Caution: icy conditions possible". While the icy conditions popup is arguably helpful (and I have no problem with such a message popping up quietly), the warning chime accompanying it is uncalled for.
My car silently displays "ICE POSSIBLE" on the radio screen (which is where the thermometer readout is). Even this always strikes me as kind of amusing/pointless, since for ice to be possible, there also has to be some sort of moisture, and the weather patterns around here make it comparatively rare that both exist at the same time. (And if they do, you'll know about it a week before it happens and may have even already partaken in a ritualistic milk/bread run.)
The Chevy Cavalier I learned to drive in didn't even have a thermometer or a compass–you had to check the weather before you left the house! And bring a map, because your Motorola Razr probably wasn't gonna be much help!
Quote from: US 89 on February 28, 2021, 04:58:40 PM
The loudest sound I've ever heard come from a car was from my mom's Volkswagen Jetta. I was driving it down the interstate and out of nowhere came a very loud BEEEEEEEEP. After a few seconds of wearing off from the initial shock, I was able to find the culprit: the semi-annual TPMS light that always comes on after it gets cold in fall.
I took the next exit and pulled into a gas station to check my tire pressures. All were roughly 1-2 psi too low. I'm glad the warning light came on, but the reality is that you don't need a loud, loud noise to distract you from the interstate for a tire that's just slightly flat. For as much warning as I got, I'd expect my engine to be overheating or something.
We've got an old car that started having problems with TP sensors going bad. The first time it happened, nobody could find the problem. Turned out, the car has five sensors on its TPMS: the one in the spare tire had died.
The biggest danger I see in the hill holding feature is if people get used to a car with hill holding and then are driving a borrowed or rented car that does not.
Quote from: kkt on February 28, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
The biggest danger I see in the hill holding feature is if people get used to a car with hill holding and then are driving a borrowed or rented car that does not.
Or worse, trying to drive off in an old fashioned stick shift.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 28, 2021, 04:47:41 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 28, 2021, 04:33:54 PM
I have rented Toyotas, for example, that will play a warning chime and pop up a message suggesting you take a break simply if you have been operating the vehicle for more than 2 hours continuously. This... no, this is not helpful.
Another common offending item is the thermometer. Outdoor temp drops below 35 or so, the car plays a loud warning chime and pops up a message saying "Caution: icy conditions possible". While the icy conditions popup is arguably helpful (and I have no problem with such a message popping up quietly), the warning chime accompanying it is uncalled for.
Subarus do this too, but the warning chime for that is more of a friendly, singular chirp. When it actually needs to warn you of something urgent, it'll loudly beep at you rapidly. Maybe Toyota should follow suit.
In some vehicles, you can mute most offending chimes or disable the warnings, such as icy conditions or for so-called fatigue.
I don't think I've ever seen one that fully ignores TPMS (as it would probably not ignore mandated items), but not every vehicle makes an audible signal.
I've never played around with hill-holding features, to be honest. I think I've had a rental or two which seemed to not roll forward at idle speeds, but I still keep my foot on the brake in an automatic, unless it's a really long stop for an active rail crossing, when I'll put it in Park.
Quote from: US 89 on February 28, 2021, 04:58:40 PM
The loudest sound I've ever heard come from a car was from my mom's Volkswagen Jetta. I was driving it down the interstate and out of nowhere came a very loud BEEEEEEEEP. After a few seconds of wearing off from the initial shock, I was able to find the culprit: the semi-annual TPMS light that always comes on after it gets cold in fall.
I took the next exit and pulled into a gas station to check my tire pressures. All were roughly 1-2 psi too low. I'm glad the warning light came on, but the reality is that you don't need a loud, loud noise to distract you from the interstate for a tire that's just slightly flat. For as much warning as I got, I'd expect my engine to be overheating or something.
Meanwhile... if you've run out of coolant, you car has overheated, and you're about to crack the engine block, all you get is a little needle that points more upward than usual.
I've owned two Pathfinders, and the TPMS hasn't worked in either one of them. So the light flashes whenever I start the car, and then it remains on constantly thereafter. Mention it to a used car dealer, and he'll probably tell you that's the case for half the cars on the lot.
Quote from: formulanone on March 01, 2021, 05:37:17 AM
I've never played around with hill-holding features, to be honest. I think I've had a rental or two which seemed to not roll forward at idle speeds, but I still keep my foot on the brake in an automatic, unless it's a really long stop for an active rail crossing, when I'll put it in Park.
Some new vehicles on the market today have a feature called Auto Brake Hold or something along the lines of that. It basically keeps your brake engaged from when you come to a full stop and take your foot off the brake pedal until you press on the gas again, so you don't have to hold it down the entire time you're waiting for a red light or stopped at a railroad crossing, etc. My car has it, and it can be helpful, but it gets extremely annoying when you're trying to inch into a parking spot by letting the car roll and stopping it with the brake, in which case I turn it off.
Quote from: kkt on February 28, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
The biggest danger I see in the hill holding feature is if people get used to a car with hill holding and then are driving a borrowed or rented car that does not.
I mean, this is potentially true of any feature once you are conditioned to its existence.
I once backed into another vehicle in a parking lot because, rather than looking behind me, I had been staring at the center console where the screen displaying the feed from the backup camera should be. Except... the rental vehicle I was driving did not have a backup camera, and I manged to not notice its absence until I heard a crunch. Oops.
Fortunately, this collision occurred at a low enough speed that there was absolutely no visible damage to either vehicle.
Quote from: formulanone on March 01, 2021, 05:37:17 AM
I don't think I've ever seen one that fully ignores TPMS (as it would probably not ignore mandated items), but not every vehicle makes an audible signal.
Yeah, mine just has a yellow light on the dash, no chime or anything. Fortunately, my car allows you to view the PSI the tire sensors are reporting, and most of the time it's just a couple pounds low. I kind of habitually ignore it enough that I'm afraid the bulb is going to burn out.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 28, 2021, 11:55:42 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 28, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
The biggest danger I see in the hill holding feature is if people get used to a car with hill holding and then are driving a borrowed or rented car that does not.
Or worse, trying to drive off in an old fashioned stick shift.
I suffered from this a few times at the hotel where I worked. While waiting at
this traffic light (https://goo.gl/maps/Q3heQLviNnxUBQKb9) to turn left, I assumed the 2005 Subaru Impreza 5-speed I was driving had hill-hold, as an older Subaru we owned from the 80s had the feature; alas, it did not, and I nearly went into the car behind me when I swapped my right foot from the brake to the throttle. I quickly caught it and performed the old slowly-release-the-handbrake trick, but it did briefly alarm me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 01, 2021, 08:13:15 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 01, 2021, 05:37:17 AM
I don't think I've ever seen one that fully ignores TPMS (as it would probably not ignore mandated items), but not every vehicle makes an audible signal.
Yeah, mine just has a yellow light on the dash, no chime or anything. Fortunately, my car allows you to view the PSI the tire sensors are reporting, and most of the time it's just a couple pounds low. I kind of habitually ignore it enough that I'm afraid the bulb is going to burn out.
My Jeep has nitrogen filled tires, which is supposedly less expansive/contractive with weather changes. So I'm hoping that it will eliminate the TPMS issues that my previous ride (Xterra) had.
Chris
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
On June 15, Scot Burner of Nashville (TN) set a Guinness world record by driving a mile in a 2017 Corvette Stingray in 1 minute 15.18 seconds–for an average speed of 48 mph. In reverse.
And this is how Scot Burner drives in reverse: "I turn around with my right hand on the passenger seat, put my left hand on the steering wheel and look out the rear window."
Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
On June 15, Scot Burner of Nashville (TN) set a Guinness world record by driving a mile in a 2017 Corvette Stingray in 1 minute 15.18 seconds–for an average speed of 48 mph. In reverse.
And this is how Scot Burner drives in reverse: "I turn around with my right hand on the passenger seat, put my left hand on the steering wheel and look out the rear window."
Which is nice but doesn't invalidate anything I said about the reasons why I like my wife's rearview camera. I note that our other cars do not have them, so I certainly turn my head often enough (except backing out of our garage–I use the sideview mirrors for that). But the camera is the thing I miss the most when I drive one of the other cars.
Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
On June 15, Scot Burner of Nashville (TN) set a Guinness world record by driving a mile in a 2017 Corvette Stingray in 1 minute 15.18 seconds–for an average speed of 48 mph. In reverse.
And this is how Scot Burner drives in reverse: "I turn around with my right hand on the passenger seat, put my left hand on the steering wheel and look out the rear window."
And why should I care?
If the backup camera helps me then I'm going to use it.
Quote from: thspfc on December 29, 2022, 09:03:28 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 12:31:58 PM
I used to think a backup camera was no big deal, but I have to say I really love the one in my wife's TLX. That car also has the "proximity sensors" (my father called it "sonar"). The combination of those makes it really easy when you're pulling into a tight parallel parking spot. I don't turn my head when I park that car–I use the camera instead, and I miss it when I parallel park our other cars (well, except the convertible if the top is down, but that's just because having the top down makes it so easy to see behind you).
On June 15, Scot Burner of Nashville (TN) set a Guinness world record by driving a mile in a 2017 Corvette Stingray in 1 minute 15.18 seconds–for an average speed of 48 mph. In reverse.
And this is how Scot Burner drives in reverse: "I turn around with my right hand on the passenger seat, put my left hand on the steering wheel and look out the rear window."
And why should I care?
If the backup camera helps me then I'm going to use it.
A huge point of the backup camera is being able to see a dead spot right behind the car. There are cases with smaller people (also known as "children") walking or standing behind the car unnoticed when the car start moving. No driver skill can help with that. Taking notice of that spot while getting into the car helps but may not be enough.
One thing I've found that I like with the backup camera in my wife's TLX is that when I pull through a parking space to face out, or (much more rarely) when I back into a space, the ability to change the camera view to a straight-down view once I'm in the space is very nice because it means I can back the car right up to the line that's below the rear bumper, while not protruding in any way to the space behind the car, all so as to ensure the car is as far back in the space (and thus as far out of the drive aisle) as possible.
For the most part, not counting parallel parking, the only place where I normally back into a space is the City Center DC garage downtown, which is where we park for Capitals games–I always go to the drive aisle that leads directly to my preferred exit, and while I normally enter via the next aisle over and then pull straight through, if it's crowded I'll back in. In that particular circumstance of a popular event with a lot of people leaving at the same time, the ability to drive straight out of the spot makes a difference. In most other situations, I've never perceived much advantage to it, and as I've mentioned elsewhere I consider it disadvantageous at the grocery store because I want easy access to the trunk there.
I would be somewhat interested in knowing to what extent drivers of various ages and experience feel comfortable using a backup camera. When Ms1995hoo first got her TLX, it took me a while to overcome the muscle memory of turning my head. My mother, who is in her late 70s, never uses the backup camera in my late father's Volvo, and it has an exceptionally sharp and crisp image–she says, "I don't trust it," and I suspect part of it is the ingrained habit from 50+ years of turning her head. That's understandable. (She's a terrible parallel parker, too. I haven't looked into the feature on that car that allows it to park itself, so I don't know whether it's meant for parking spaces or parallel parking, but I'm pretty confident she's never used it either.) My mom is by no means a Luddite and uses technology for various things, which is why I suspect that muscle memory and years of habit are the determinative issues as to the backup camera.
I find it far easier to back into a parking lot space using a combination of backup camera and side mirrors than pulling in normally. This also allows me so see better when I pull out of the space since so many people have SUVs and other vehicles taller than my sedan. Backup cameras are great. I will still pull in normally if I can drive through the open space to another open space that allows me to pull out quickly like 1995hoo because it's easier and quicker.
I've never been able to confidently back up on a curve while using a backup camera–but it's easy when I'm actually looking out the rear window. For example, backing into my driveway and having to get it between the goalposts of the curb cutout from a perpendicular starting position. I actually have an easier time using my side mirrors for that purpose than a backup camera.
When backing out of the driveway I probably look forwards more than I look backwards. The driveway is straight, so as long as I'm going straight back and between the two edges, I'm fine. I only look back to make sure there's no cars coming and nothing in the way.
The only time I ever used a backup camera as a valet was to ensure I didn't hit anything behind me, like a post, another car, or concrete wall. Cameras can help you get crazy close, which is really all that matters as a valet. For everything else, like maneuvering into the stall, I just used the mirrors.
I hardly ever used the backup camera until a few weeks ago. I still use left eye over the right arm manuever, but often glance at the passenger side mirror in the process. One day in a large parking lot, I put the minivan in reverse and saw something dart into the backup camera image out of the corner of my eye when I peeked at the side mirror. A tiny little girl was running across only about 4 inches from the car, such that there was no way I could see her through the rear windshield. I've wisened up and am now using the backup camera, but it is certainly a strain to rotate back-and-forth between the two positions.