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Author Topic: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco  (Read 6341 times)

Buck87

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 08:56:17 AM »

Sigh....

From CNN:

Japanese broadcaster apologizes after false North Korea missile alert
Quote
Japanese national broadcaster NHK issued an on-air apology Tuesday after issuing an alert incorrectly claiming that North Korea had launched a ballistic missile.

The message, received by phone users with the NHK app installed on their devices, read: "NHK news alert. North Korea likely to have launched missile. The government J alert: evacuate inside the building or underground. "
FULL ARTICLE HERE

That reminds me of this video, of a British guy in Japan reacting to a real missile launch warning:

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 05:07:37 PM »

I would go crazy if I was in Hawaii! I can't imagine being in Hawaii during this.
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ZLoth

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 08:20:21 PM »

From Business Insider:

Hawaii emergency agency password in photo sparks security criticism
Quote
On Saturday, people in Hawaii were awakened by a terrifying false alert about an inbound missile. Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency has said a worker clicked the wrong item in a drop-down menu and sent it, and that its system was not hacked.

But an Associated Press photo from July that recently resurfaced on Twitter has raised questions about the agency's cybersecurity practices.

In it, the agency's operations officer poses in front of a battery of screens. Attached to one is a password written on a Post-it note.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 09:04:29 PM »

I would go crazy if I was in Hawaii! I can't imagine being in Hawaii during this.

Pretty sure the fatman isn't throwing an ICBM at Hawaii. You have to be more worried about morons like the guy who caused this whole mess.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 11:00:33 PM »

From Business Insider:

Hawaii emergency agency password in photo sparks security criticism
Quote
On Saturday, people in Hawaii were awakened by a terrifying false alert about an inbound missile. Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency has said a worker clicked the wrong item in a drop-down menu and sent it, and that its system was not hacked.

But an Associated Press photo from July that recently resurfaced on Twitter has raised questions about the agency's cybersecurity practices.

In it, the agency's operations officer poses in front of a battery of screens. Attached to one is a password written on a Post-it note.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
At least that isn't a launch code. Those are kept under lock and key somewhere at NORAD.
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slorydn1

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 12:39:54 AM »

I see we have a world full of perfect people who have never clicked on an incorrect link, pressed the wrong button, hit the wrong key on their keyboard (etc). Between here and in the comments of the various articles I keep seeing words like moron thrown around alot to decribe the individual who clicked the wrong link on his screen, but it looks to me like the only moron was the one who designed the system so that could happen to begin with.Well him and whoever ordered that they would do a test of the system at shift change instead of the middle of the shift when an operator is most in tune with his equipment.

I am at work, and while reading the original article I kept looking at my radio interface screen with all the channel windows, and "buttons" for setting off the alarms for the different fire depts/rescue squads and I smiled-giggled actually.

We use a track ball (yep, a Missile Command style trackball for those old enough to remember them) to move the cursor around and all it takes is being off by a few mm's to wake up the wrong fire department at 3 in the morning. In 20+ years I have done just that a small number of times. Of course in my case when that happens it's a much smaller population that is being affected (one volunteer fire department versus an entire state) and I can immediately tell them to go back to sleep by simply keying up the radio and telling them to "10-22 (disregard) their alarm", and then hit the correct alarm and continue on. At worst I have caused 30-40 people to lose a little sleep and it may have cost 10-15 seconds or so in actual response to the call.

A system where you are sending out a warning to millions of people all at the same time should not be automated, at all. Someone should have to jump through all the neccesary hoops to get that message out. In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 05:09:36 AM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 10:26:04 AM »

In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 10:33:51 AM »

In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!
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kalvado

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 10:55:44 AM »

In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!
Even few days in a shelter can help to avoid most nasty fallouts. And you can get a few months worth of food, it is not that expensive. Having well and septic is not that uncommon in rural areas. Electtic power to operate all that is an issue, but I can think of some options.
Now is there a point to survive and come out to destroyed economy, disappeared infrastructure and ruined cities and people fighting for food? That is a totally different question.
Hiding may make sense in case of NK launch, they wouldn't do much harm - and situation will be treated pretty much like major hurricane or earthquake...
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 12:46:47 PM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 12:55:04 PM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Throw in too many precautions, and you delay issuance of alerts. Some precautions might require more people on hand, twiddling their thumbs between alerts (test or real).

That said, one option might be similar to the system for launching land-based ICBMs, where two people have to turn keys at the same time, and the switches are in separate locations so one person can't turn both keys.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 12:56:05 PM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2018, 12:59:50 PM »

That said, one option might be similar to the system for launching land-based ICBMs, where two people have to turn keys at the same time, and the switches are in separate locations so one person can't turn both keys.
As far as I know, US launch system is 3 out of 5 signals... Or you refer to 15a30?
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2018, 06:36:48 AM »

From Ars Technica:

The interface to send out a missile alert in Hawaii is slightly less bad
Quote
The Honolulu Civil Beat claims to have obtained a picture of the interface used to send out tests and missile alerts to the people of Hawaii, and it's not pretty.

It appears the employee who sent out the mobile and broadcast missile alert that sent Hawaii into a panic for 38 minutes on Saturday was supposed to choose "DRILL - PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" but instead chose "PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" from an unordered list of equally unintuitive and difficult-to-read options.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2018, 08:37:57 PM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.

It shouldn't take 30 seconds to read a pseudorandom number on the screen and type it.  Maybe 5 seconds, allowing for an individual in a panic.  I would say it's worth it to avoid false alarms.

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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2018, 08:48:28 PM »

I don't know how that system is designed. But, if I was designing a system that had major impact requiring immediate action, I better make sure that there is a confirmation AND that confirmation requires that the user enter in a code that is randomly generated AND cannot be copied/pasted such as text in a graphic and/or external authentication. It's a boy-cries-wolf scenario: If you put out too many false alarms, then a real alarm gets ignored.

But that requires effort, which requires money, which means....

That is a good idea Zloth!  Getting in an extra step will help avoid fat-fingering errors.

Rick
There is no time for that. Total flight time from NK to Hawaii would be in 12-15 minutes ballpack. There is a single digit number of minutes between launch information being confirmed, target determined - and actual impact. You propose to steal 30 seconds out of that time - which means it is a no-go. 
Missiles over the north pole have longer lead time, so POTUS has about 15 minutes to push the red button - including all confirmations. But that is much higher action threshold and much quicker result.

It shouldn't take 30 seconds to read a pseudorandom number on the screen and type it.  Maybe 5 seconds, allowing for an individual in a panic.  I would say it's worth it to avoid false alarms.


I'd hope there's an RSA token code (or equivalent) required to enter this kind of thing in. They take 3-5 seconds.

Either that, or the app was working fine, and a text banner popped up at just the wrong time... :P
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2018, 11:50:37 PM »

From The Verge:

Here’s how Hawaii’s emergency alert design led to a false alarm
Quote
While the state has not named its software provider, evidence suggests it is an Idaho-based company called AlertSense, a FEMA-approved company that says it works with clients in states around the country. The audio version of the alert broadcast in Hawaii was posted on the company’s website. The first image released by Hawaii also appears similar to example software provided to The Verge by AlertSense. For instance, the word “templates” appears above the alert options in AlertSense’s software, and is barely visible in the first image issued by the state. (A local TV station in Hawaii independently came to the same conclusion.) The Verge’s review of the program suggests that functionally there is only a one-click difference between sending a test and a live alert.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2018, 12:17:52 AM »

From Vox:

Hawaii’s false alarm revealed the stunning flaws in our emergency alert system
An expert explains just how convoluted the system that tells us if we’re in danger really is.
Quote
Hawaiian authorities have said that the mistake was a matter of human error: An official just clicked the wrong link on their computer screen. But the fact that one person’s errant mouse click led to panic made a lot of people wonder: Just how reliable is the country’s emergency alert system, anyway? If that could happen in Hawaii, could it happen in Washington, DC? How does this whole thing even work?

To find out, I contacted retired Rear Adm. David Simpson, who served as the chief of the Federal Communications Commission’s Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau from 2013 to 2017. He’s seen firsthand how the federal government works with states, local communities, and broadcasters to disseminate alerts about natural and man-made disasters.

It turns out that the US’s emergency management alert system is actually made up of a bunch of separate systems, many of which are underfunded. This means that many emergency officials are working with unsophisticated software, which can lead to mistakes like the one in Hawaii.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2018, 08:15:59 PM »

In the case of a nuclear attack, I am not sure why we really need any warning at all. Unlike many natural disasters where there are very real steps we can take to protect ourselves and our families but with a nuclear holocaust there is no point. I'm with english si, he's right when he said that you are either going to be vaporised or you are going to die a gruesome death by radiation poisioning. You just aren't going to be able to get far enough away in the available amount of time to do anything meaningful in a survival sense so why get everyone in a panic?

The house I grew up in had a bomb shelter in the basement, with foot-thick concrete walls and door and an escape hatch in the ceiling.  Are you telling me there would have been no point in going down there?

How long you planning on surviving down there?  Even if it was safe from the initial attack, you need to eat, drink, pee and poop.  And if you didn't have electric, you'll either be in total darkness or have extremely limited lighting with candles or flashlights. Don't forget the matches and batteries!

Remember that there were plenty of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that survived those blasts. There was even one man who survived both.

Obviously if you are sufficiently close to the point of detonation you're toast, but there are plenty of people outside of that radius - people who won't be vaporized but will be irradiated - to whom the alert can mean the difference between life and death.

The correct action to take if you receive such an alert is to find the nearest basement to get into and locate yourself as close to the middle of the building as you can. The more walls between you and outside, the better - block as much of the radiation as possible.

True, you cannot survive in there forever, but you do not need to. After 24-48 hours the level of radiation in the air outside will have dropped low enough for you to leave your sheltered spot and evacuate away from the blast.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2018, 10:37:52 PM »

Makes me wonder about the people who can't return to Bikini Atoll because of the radiation from the nuclear blasts there decades ago.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2018, 09:03:51 AM »

Makes me wonder about the people who can't return to Bikini Atoll because of the radiation from the nuclear blasts there decades ago.
Atomic bombs are lumped into one group - but actually have many technology variables which affect things big time. Long term contamination is usually an unwanted consequence for military applications - except for most crazy unrealized Cold War era projects where burning out enemy territory along with your own was an option. Contamination is usually a sign that not all available energy was released - so a bigger explosion was available, but not realized.
A lot of test sites suffer from failed testing - where charge did not achieve desired effect, or a dirty technology that was tested for the sake of test.
It is somewhat similar to Hiroshima and Nagasaki being perfectly safe in terms of explosion consequences - but Chernobyl or Fukushima (or Hanford) will be a problem for centuries to come.
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Re: Hawaii Missile Alert Fiasco
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM »

https://xkcd.com/1946/

Don't forget to mouse over the cartoon.
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