I don't foresee myself ever needing a new car with driver assist features

Started by RobbieL2415, February 17, 2021, 01:40:53 PM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 02:44:26 PM

It doesn't ruin my day but it's certainly discourteous. We go through all this effort to license drivers, but then don't scrutinize their driving and/or enforce the traffic laws.


In an average state, the effort is:

Pay $10 to get a permit.  Prove you are you.
Take eye exam.  Use any corrective vision option available to allow test passage.
In some states: Supervised, instructed behind the wheel training. 
In some states: Adult-supervised driving (honor system).
50 question test, half of which deals with intoxication.
Road test, done in parking lot at speeds below 25 mph.
Pay for license.

The effort to provide you harassment education, with supportive acknowledgment, at a workplace takes longer than it does to get a driver's license in this country.  And you have to take that every year or two.  A drivers license is for life.


seicer

Most perceive driving to be a right and not a privilege in this country, and any attempts to curtail this freedom - through stricter licensing requirements or mandated, thorough vehicle inspections - is often shot down.

I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

I just moved to Kentucky where the inspection was nothing more than a "that'll do" from the sheriff. So many trucks down here are jacked up with unnecessary lifts that make them a danger to others in a collision or outfitted with smokestacks. Cars with rotting frames. Lights burned out galore.

In other countries, driving is a privilege and is treated as such. Inspections can be an expensive, laborious process. Driving tests can be equally demanding and need to be taken every few years. Fines for infractions are costly.

formulanone

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Compared to 6% in Florida.

Actually, a Florida dealer can re-coup the entire sales tax of the county you live in; 6% is the base for the entire state, but it can be higher depending on your county of residence, not the county you buy it from. There might be a work-around if you want to report the taxes yourself, but it's one of the few things the dealer can't actually profit from.

I've already mentioned lots of times which features I like and don't like on this forum. I don't mind the blind-spot system (though mostly that's because I've experienced them while driving an unfamiliar car, so I would probably shut it off after a few months) and the back-up cameras (same reasons, but it assists with backing into parking spaces).

The lane-keeping garbage, cruise-control tracking, pre-collision avoidance warning beeps are just plain annoying "features" and seems like expensive beta testing for the hypothetical The Car Of The Future.

ABS has pretty much been a given for the past 20 years, traction control a standard feature for over 10 years...you really have to go for an older car to get vehicles without them. At that point, you might have less desirable choices, or you're trading the avoidance of one feature at the expense of a potentially worn-out issue which can't be avoided.

kphoger

Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.

My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it.  Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work.  But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle.  All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: formulanone on February 18, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 18, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Compared to 6% in Florida.

Actually, a Florida dealer can re-coup the entire sales tax of the county you live in; 6% is the base for the entire state, but it can be higher depending on your county of residence, not the county you buy it from. There might be a work-around if you want to report the taxes yourself, but it's one of the few things the dealer can't actually profit from.

I've already mentioned lots of times which features I like and don't like on this forum. I don't mind the blind-spot system (though mostly that's because I've experienced them while driving an unfamiliar car, so I would probably shut it off after a few months) and the back-up cameras (same reasons, but it assists with backing into parking spaces).

The lane-keeping garbage, cruise-control tracking, pre-collision avoidance warning beeps are just plain annoying "features" and seems like expensive beta testing for the hypothetical The Car Of The Future.

ABS has pretty much been a given for the past 20 years, traction control a standard feature for over 10 years...you really have to go for an older car to get vehicles without them. At that point, you might have less desirable choices, or you're trading the avoidance of one feature at the expense of a potentially worn-out issue which can't be avoided.

At the time it would have been Orange County.  The savings on taxes alone from what I recall were over $1,000 dollars compared to if I had purchased in California.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
I think driving skills are at an all-time low. No one signals, no one stops before turning on red, people cut across from the center lane to make an exit, people change lanes for no reason and many other are just flat-out lazy. No driver assist feature is going to fix that.

You sure those things used to be better?  Or that there aren't other things that used to be worse than now, but that you just don't notice?
No, but I'm sure at one point they were worse.

hotdogPi

Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kkt

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.

....

That's what insurance (typically "comprehensive coverage") is for.

That doesn't mean the cost doesn't exist, it just means it's spread out to everybody, even people who don't have cameras or sonars in their windshield.

1995hoo

Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
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Flint1979

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
I have the adaptive cruise control in mine and it keeps the speed that I set it at going downhill.

SSOWorld

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
I have an automatic (with adaptive) that will maintain speed in hilly terrain (using brakes automatically took keep that speed) regardless of whether its adaptive cruise or not.  Problem is it also has a hysteresis problem where it will go slow up and fast over.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

JayhawkCO

I love the adaptive cruise.  It's perfect for moderate traffic situations so you're not constantly hitting the brakes and then restarting the cruise once you're around someone going more slowly.  I can even use it in the mountains out here if there are other cars around because it will slow me down on turns to match the other cars ahead of me.  When entering a town (speedtrap) on a rural highway, if there is a car in front of you, you'll automatically drop down to the reduced speed limit.  The only time I really take it off outside of the city is for inclement weather. 

Chris

SectorZ

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.

My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it.  Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work.  But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle.  All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.

Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.

Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.

Flint1979

Quote from: jayhawkco on February 21, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
I love the adaptive cruise.  It's perfect for moderate traffic situations so you're not constantly hitting the brakes and then restarting the cruise once you're around someone going more slowly.  I can even use it in the mountains out here if there are other cars around because it will slow me down on turns to match the other cars ahead of me.  When entering a town (speedtrap) on a rural highway, if there is a car in front of you, you'll automatically drop down to the reduced speed limit.  The only time I really take it off outside of the city is for inclement weather. 

Chris
I agree. I was in the mountains last week and around Mt. Mitchell. It worked pretty good in the mountains but a few times did take awhile to speed up.

TXtoNJ

OP is going to be old and lose a step one day. Would you rather have the assist or lose your license?

jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.

My 6MT Golf has cruise control, which I use frequently, especially in school zones where I can set it all the way down to 15. From my experience, it seems to hold it right around the speed that I set, give or take a few miles-per-hour. The only awkward thing about the cruise control is trying to change gears. Many systems seem to cancel when you push in the clutch, but VW's system maintains the cruise. The car stops accelerating when you push in the clutch, and then resumes after you've finished changing gear. It's sort of like changing gear for someone else. Really odd. But it works.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: TXtoNJ on February 21, 2021, 03:05:21 PM
OP is going to be old and lose a step one day. Would you rather have the assist or lose your license?

That's assumptive, I know plenty of people who never made to what would normally be considered "old."   Also, how do you know the OP (who doesn't advertise his age) isn't "old"  already?  Also, what is your Mendoza Line for "old?"

seicer

Quote from: kkt on February 21, 2021, 11:47:14 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.

....

That's what insurance (typically "comprehensive coverage") is for.

That doesn't mean the cost doesn't exist, it just means it's spread out to everybody, even people who don't have cameras or sonars in their windshield.

$1,000 extra to "recalibrate" the system? Nah.

I have one windshield replacement per year under my plan which was needed because of where I lived (near mines) at one point. I'd go through a windshield a year. With my Subaru Outback with Eyesight, the windshield could be replaced (and Eyesight recalibrated) for just $200 (it wasn't a 100% coverage plan). They did not charge extra to "recalibrate" Eyesight - although Subaru's recalibration was more sensitive and required more work than Toyota's and Honda's systems at the time.

vdeane

Quote from: SectorZ on February 21, 2021, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.

My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it.  Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work.  But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle.  All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.

Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.

Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.
If the car frame is rusted to the point where it would fail inspection, I'd say that it's not safe.  My Mom had a car like that when I was young.  It rusted out to the point where Dad didn't trust it for anything beyond the local area (resulting in the purchase of a used Ford Taurus) years before it got to the point where it couldn't pass inspection.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

tolbs17

I never had a car but i've driven a 2017 Audi Q5 and it has park assist. I don't need (or want) any of that fancy stuff as a first driver. Cause I'm afraid that I'll crash it and I have little to no experience driving.

tq-07fan

Everyone keeps talking about Cruise Control. Is that some new feature in cars or what?  :sombrero:

Quote from: CoreySamson on February 18, 2021, 01:28:52 PM
One thing about driver assist features many of you are missing: the repair costs are comparatively higher with them than without them. For example, some new windshields have cameras in them to help with adaptive cruise and the such. But what happens when a truck in front of you throws up a rock and shatters your windshield? That could be an extra $1000 to repair your windshield because of the additional wiring and recalibration of the camera. I don't really like the sound of that.

Count me in as another person who doesn't really like driver-assist features. Much of what they help with can be at least partly mitigated by just being a safe, defensive driver. That being said, some of them seem like they would be worth it.

Here's my list of features I do and do not like:
Like:
Airbags
ABS/Traction Control
Backup Camera
Auto Emergency Braking/Warning (if it works correctly)
Don't Like:
Lane Departure Assist/Warning
Adaptive Cruise (or even regular cruise!)
Any other self-driving tech

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I wish some automaker would produce a barebones workhorse car or truck for about $20k without all these fancy features. Give me manual cloth seats, an A/C, a heater, and a fuel-efficient engine and I'll be good to go.

You've more or less summarized my current ride. 2011 Honda Civic, I got the step up from the most basic Civic offered at the time. It actually has manual door locks (and no one riding as a passenger understands that I cannot lock or unlock the doors without putting the key in the door). No Cruise Control, basic CD Player. Cloth unheated seats that adjust manually. manually adjusted mirrors. Power windows, Automatic Transmission though. Ten years and over 207k miles and runs great. I will say the Blind Spot detection would be the only thing I could have possibly used twice, but after realizing that the car had blind spots I learned and adjusted. Obviously I love it! I drive a bus so I use the mirrors for backing.


Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
Most perceive driving to be a right and not a privilege in this country, and any attempts to curtail this freedom - through stricter licensing requirements or mandated, thorough vehicle inspections - is often shot down.

I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

I just moved to Kentucky where the inspection was nothing more than a "that'll do" from the sheriff. So many trucks down here are jacked up with unnecessary lifts that make them a danger to others in a collision or outfitted with smokestacks. Cars with rotting frames. Lights burned out galore.

In other countries, driving is a privilege and is treated as such. Inspections can be an expensive, laborious process. Driving tests can be equally demanding and need to be taken every few years. Fines for infractions are costly.

My first car, which I did not have one of my own until I was in my twenties was a used 1990 Dodge Omni. It suffered the collision of the Hippies, I had hair down past my ass and so did everyone in the van that changed lanes into me, although I was driving in a Center Turn Lane. Anyways, the car was still driveable but the right quarter panel had been pushed back. The right passenger door could no longer be opened but the window still rolled down for convenient passenger entrance and egress. My dad and I Bungee Corded and Duct Taped the damaged quarter panel together and I used a 12 oz clear milk jug for a Turn Signal, also Duct Taped to the car. I also had to Duct Tape the Air Bag back into the steering wheel. In certain neighborhoods other drivers gave me the Right of Way with that car regardless of what the signals said. I told a young woman from Germany riding on Amtrak about my Omni and how it was actually street legal in the State of Ohio and her mouth dropped open... 

I've driven a rental with the lane thing and didn't much like it. If enough people complain and the auto manufacturers figure out that the market doesn't like it they will either modify it or remove it altogether. Remember Automatic Seat Belts, although they were no longer required after the side air bags came standard many people would unfasten the things so they were doing less than a regular seat belt. If people disable the Lane Departure then it is basically useless as well. Surprise, you can count me in as not wanting to pay extra for it.

Jim

Flint1979

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 21, 2021, 10:22:52 PM
I never had a car but i've driven a 2017 Audi Q5 and it has park assist. I don't need (or want) any of that fancy stuff as a first driver. Cause I'm afraid that I'll crash it and I have little to no experience driving.
The first time I let my adaptive cruise control stop on it's own I thought what if I don't stop that wouldn't be good so I had the cruise set as low as it goes 20 mph and it came to a stop. I thought it was cool.

seicer

Quote from: vdeane on February 21, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 21, 2021, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 03:29:34 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 18, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I just moved from New York where inspections are required annually at $20/vehicle. I had a check engine light on, and despite my attempts at disguising it (it was a walnut lodged in the active shutter grill), I had to have the car repaired before I could pass. But what was great is that I didn't see vehicles with smokestacks on trucks barreling black diesel soot into the air, or vehicles with aftermarket additions that made their cars unsafe to drive and unsafe to be around.

Really glad I don't live in a state that requires such.

My car has had a CEL light on since I bought it.  Two of the codes are for "camshaft position timing over-advanced", which is probably either due to an oil leak in the timing assembly or else a nearly un-diagnose-able electrical or mechanical timing issue remaining after extensive timing work.  But anyway, I don't see how such a CEL code should disqualify me from registering the vehicle.  All they mean is that the VVT has to work extra hard to correct timing.

Vehicle inspections that worry about the check engine light without any context of whether it is polluting badly or making the car dangerous is just a regressive tax on poor people.

Telling people they can't drive because of rust on the frame when the government wallpapers the roads in corrosive elements is a similar issue.
If the car frame is rusted to the point where it would fail inspection, I'd say that it's not safe.  My Mom had a car like that when I was young.  It rusted out to the point where Dad didn't trust it for anything beyond the local area (resulting in the purchase of a used Ford Taurus) years before it got to the point where it couldn't pass inspection.

I get the sentiment both ways. My still-yet-to-be-paid-off Subaru is already rusting extensively - small specs on the side here and there, brake calipers that just rusted apart after going through some deep water on a recent drive here in Kentucky, and an engine block that my mechanic (in Kentucky) thought was salvaged. I had some parts that failed to work properly because they had essentially rusted shut :(

But... maintenance of a car is something that must be taken into account over the lifetime of a vehicle. Driving is still a privilege, not a right, and while inspections are not costly in New York, the repairs to a vehicle can be but it ultimately leaves vehicles - 3 ton objects, safer for the driver and safer for other motorists. As I said before, I'm just appalled at the condition of the cars that are on the road down here in Kentucky versus New York.

(And I'm all for salt / calcium chloride reduction. They are over applied and destroy environments.)

RobbieL2415

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Earlier in the thread, cruise control was a topic. I went to the grocery store this morning and on my way through our neighborhood, I set my cruise control (not adaptive cruise) at 35 mph to keep my speed down. There are one or two decent hills and I've found over the years that if I set the cruise in my wife's car with an automatic transmission, the car will accelerate down the hills; I also found this way back when I was learning to drive in the Volvo 740 my mom then had. Yet when I set the cruise control in my car with a six-speed manual, it doesn't accelerate down the hills–it holds the speed pretty much where I set it. Wondering whether other people have found the same sort of phenomenon as to using cruise control in manual versus automatic-shift cars.
It comes down to how the cruise control is implemented and what kind of transmission you have.
Earlier CC systems were mechanical. The throttle cable would pass through a device that, when activated, would hold the cable in that position and move it forwards or backwards to adjust speed. At least that's how it worked in my '95 Buick Lesabre. There was no communication with the transmission; the throttle was simply actuated based on the voltage generated from the speed sensor. The 4T60-E on those cars was electronically controlled but it was before the CAN bus existed so systems couldn't communicate with each other.

Now, on my '07 Civic, its much different. It has an electronically-controlled throttle, so CC is implemented by the CC module directly modulating the butterfly valve. But in addition to that, because it has a CAN bus, the transmission can be commanded to upshift or downshift based on not just the engine load, but also the throttle position and vehicle speed. Even when CC isn't on, the transmission is very good at detecting when I'm going up a hill because it's constantly reading engine load values and input/output shaft speeds. And it's insanely accurate.

CC on manual transmissions -- theres not much you can do with it because of the nature of its design. All the module can really do is modulate the throttle position and hope you know when to downshift.



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