Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[jeffandnicole]

Came across a new one on US-40 in Maryland yesterday.... a flashing RED arrow. The sign posted next to it stated "LEFT TURN PERMITTED AFTER FULL STOP WHEN FLASHING" or something along those lines. A quick search indicates this signal may have predated the decision to go with a yellow flasher for the same traffic control device.

Youtube to the rescue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2jZ62dLlY
Another one in Delaware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbPka-JUxo

Delaware has long used those T signal flashing reds.  They continue to install them at new locations.

[SignBridge]

Clumsy looking span-wire installations. Don't Maryland and Delaware use mast-arms at all?

[MASTERNC]

Clumsy looking span-wire installations. Don't Maryland and Delaware use mast-arms at all?

Delaware has started to use mast arms with new installations.  Maryland has a mix of mast arms and wires (even on the same road at consecutive intersections).  Again, newer installations in MD tend to be on masts.

[SignBridge]

Good to know they're modernizing, same as New York DOT.

[mrsman]

^^ I'm trying to understand the purpose of holding the through traffic but allowing permitted left turns during the conflicting walk phase... If the intersection is split phased, they could just run that crosswalk with the adjacent (opposing) through green instead. There is a slight geometric offset at the intersection, but nothing too crazy (seems like prohibiting RTOR onto SW 312th would better protect peds in the crosswalk).

EDIT: Thinking about this more... I think I get that they're trying to clear left turn traffic during the opposing through phase, so if there's no through movement on this approach then the signal need not run the second half of the split. So it's actually pretty clever. However, it looks like there are no dedicated turn lanes on this approach, so use of a FYA is still somewhat bizarre (and is this even allowed by MUTCD?).

Here's a Gmaps link: https://goo.gl/RuoQou -- each approach is single lane.

The idea with the FYA was to allow the NB 14 Ave S traffic to turn left at the same time as the crosswalk (a busy one due to a nearby school). The traditional split-phased setup conflicted with the crosswalk, so two phases were required even if both cars and pedestrians originated from the SB approach.

This setup, while intriguing, has resulted in a situation where a driver may enter and freely turn left without stopping (after giving way to pedestrians), but must stop before turning right.

I too would rather see the through movements occur at the same time (the offset is more apparent in person, but still not that crazy); evidently, the city of Federal Way must disagree on the offsets not being too crazy. I'll email my contact in the city to see what the "official" idea was.

I kind of agree with roadfro about what I beleive is the pjurpose of this signal sequence, but I thought I'd put it in my own words:

14 Ave is a narrow 2 lane road.  If there was standard signaling (RYG w/o arrows), one left turner could block all the cars behind them if there is a lot of opposing traffic - so the standard way of resolving this is to incorporate split phasing.  In regular split phasing, first the SB cars can go straight and left, and then in a completely separate phase NB cars can go straight and left.  Peds crossing on the western sidewalk will cross with SB cars and peds crossing on the eastern sidewalk will cross with NB cars.

But there is an inefficiency in this. if you are NB and want to turn left, and all the cars opposing you in the SB direction want to turn left, there is no reason that you cannot also turn left during the SB phase.  In the world of FYAs, in lead-lag signals, the lagging side will get a red light and a FYA while the lead side has green arrow and vice versa.   So this signal is applying what is commonly done for a lead-lag to a split-phase. And assuming that sightlines are clear, then there is no reason not to allow the NB car to turn during the SB signal phase.

[Now we all know that split phasing is basically a special type of lead-lag signal.  It's a lead-lag without an overlapping through phase.  Most lead-lag signals will still have the overlapping through phase as being the lengthiest phase (most time).  Some signals operate as almost split-phase with a very short overlapping phase (30 sec WB, 10 sec overlapping, 30 sec EB) for an example see Wilshire at Santa Monica in Beverly Hills, CA.  And then the split-phase, where the overlapping phase = 0 sec.  Federal Way realized this and has applied some principles for lead-lag signals to split-phased signals.]

Granted, because the road is narrow, one can only take advantage of the FYA if there isn't somebody ahead of you who wants to go straight.  But given that there is a dead end just to the north of the intersection, I can safely assume that there are many more NB cars that turn than go straight at this intersection.

It seems that Federal Way has incorporated an idea that I had thought of for an intersection near me that I mentioned on this post back in 2014:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg2005449#msg2005449

Well done, Federal Way.

[SignBridge]

Someone had mentioned earlier a set of bagged newly installed signals in the Westbury/Jericho area of Nassau County on Long Island. Those new signals at Jericho Tpk. (N.Y.25) and Roxbury Rd. (opp. Home Depot) went into service this week and sure enough there are new FYA's in both directions on N.Y. 25. Good job NYS DOT! This is at least the third such installation in Nassau County.

Regrettably Nassau County DPW, a huge traffic signal agency themselves, has yet to install their first FYA on county roads as far as I know, but as always, if anyone knows different, please correct me.

[Revive 755]

In the Rockford, IL area flashing yellow arrows have been installed at the US 20/Alpine Road interchange for the left turns to enter US 20.  The signs used with the FYA heads were the 'left turn yield on flashing arrow' - the type usually seen in Missouri, but not Illinois or Wisconsin.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Someone had mentioned earlier a set of bagged newly installed signals in the Westbury/Jericho area of Nassau County on Long Island. Those new signals at Jericho Tpk. (N.Y.25) and Roxbury Rd. (opp. Home Depot) went into service this week and sure enough there are new FYA's in both directions on N.Y. 25. Good job NYS DOT! This is at least the third such installation in Nassau County.

Regrettably Nassau County DPW, a huge traffic signal agency themselves, has yet to install their first FYA on county roads as far as I know, but as always, if anyone knows different, please correct me.

Piggybacking off this post

There is another new set on 25A in Huntington where it intersects with Fort Hill Rd and Loma Place, going westbound.

There previously was no signal at all.

Vew of the intersection in question
https://goo.gl/maps/N5tCpRt4mcw

This looks to be the first FYA installation in Suffolk county, and the third such on 25A alone.

NYSDOT is really stepping up its game, seems like the side by side left turn signal may very soon be extinct in new state installations except for some split phase intersections (though the right turn signals will probably not change in the foreseeable future), but I welcome the change as well.

Now only if the Nassau DPW and various Suffolk traffic agencies would get on board.

[SignBridge]

Turns out the one on Jericho Tpk at Home Depot also has an FYA coming out of the Home Depot parking lot which surprised me. You're right about NYS DOT stepping up its game. I used to think Nassau DPW was the better of the two agencies, but lately the roles seem to have reversed.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Turns out the one on Jericho Tpk at Home Depot also has an FYA coming out of the Home Depot parking lot which surprised me. You're right about NYS DOT stepping up its game. I used to think Nassau DPW was the better of the two agencies, but lately the roles seem to have reversed.

That is surprising... that shows a huge commitment by NYS

NYCDOT also needs to step up its game and use the FYA as intended, though they are a totally different animal.

[Revive 755]

Per this document, Bloomington, Illinois will soon begin installing flashing yellow arrows.

[Revive 755]

Per Pages 76 of 130 and 83 of 130 of https://www.co.mchenry.il.us/home/showdocument?id=77414, McHenry County, Illinois may be installing FYA's along their section of Algonquin Road and at the Main Street/Wilmot Road intersection.

[ilpt4u]

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I understand Bloomington, being so close to Peoria...but McHenry County kinda blows my mind. Are they using them across the border in Wisconsin? Or in Kane County? I see your earlier post about them being already installed in Rockford...ok that isn't far from McHenry County at all

[jakeroot]

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

[ilpt4u]

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

I guess I don't mind the FYA...but IL has bigger fish to fry, than spending money replacing 5 Section Towers that work just fine for the FYA

If done as regular maintenance/upgrade projects, fine

I've seen them and driven thru them in Peoria, they are across the Mississippi in Missouri. I'd call it more nostalgia than neophobia

[jakeroot]

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

I guess I don't mind the FYA...but IL has bigger fish to fry, than spending money replacing 5 Section Towers that work just fine for the FYA

If done as regular maintenance/upgrade projects, fine

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

A local city near me installed three FYAs a few years ago (many more since). The cost, all in (including rewiring, phasing, etc) was $530,000 (Puyallup project #1). Sounds like a lot, but it's chump change compared to the cost of a lot of other things.

I've seen them and driven thru them in Peoria, they are across the Mississippi in Missouri. I'd call it more nostalgia than neophobia

Thank you for your honesty. I can go along with the nostalgia factor when considering the benefits of green orbs.

[empirestate]

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).

[Brandon]

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

[cl94]

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.

[vdeane]

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.

My understanding was that NY's pension fund was solvent (and one of the best in the country), unlike IL... at least at the state level.

[cl94]

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.

My understanding was that NY's pension fund was solvent (and one of the best in the country), unlike IL... at least at the state level.

Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if some of NY's debt comes from pensions. 5% of the 2018 budget is debt servicing, or about $300 million more than the total NYSDOT budget of $5 billion. Either way, NY doesn't have the money for transportation projects.

Of course, there are tons of ways we could be saving money, but that's another topic.

[jakeroot]

Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.

Sorry. Was being lazy when I wrote my first post. Meant to imply that costs are more than just signals heads (new equipment and wiring, sometimes a new mast) but are otherwise relatively inexpensive modifications.

Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).

But FYAs are not new *to roadgeeks*. You can't really be neophobic towards them. Parts of Oregon and Washington have had them for well over ten years now. Even if they're new to southern Illinois, they're not new to us.

If a bunch of old people told me they didn't want anything to do with them, that'd be a different story.

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Understandable. Do the counties rely heavily on state funds for road works?

[Throckmorton]

   
This type of signal has recently been employed in Kansas City, MO, at 85th Street and Wornall Road. It is available to northbound and southbound traffic (Wornall). I haven't noticed if it is used on 85th Street.   
   
   

[ilpt4u]

Best I know, the FYA doesn't exist in Southern IL

Yes, I've read the threads and understand that the FYA is designed to eliminate the "Yellow Trap" -- but I have never encountered a "Yellow Trap" in IL. I have in MO, but not in IL.

The FYA is approved, and it will probably be across all of IL, eventually.

Call me stubborn, but I still don't see the problem with 5 Section Tower PPLTs. They work (unless you do Lead/Lag, which opens up "Yellow Trap" scenarios).

Most Lead/Lags I have come across in IL use "Left on Arrow Only" signals instead of 5 Section Towers.

I guess in full disclosure, I see the FYA solving a problem that doesn't exist, if and only if current PPLT phasing doesn't create the "Yellow Trap" scenario

Southern IL has a couple of neat "road-geeky" things, for being a relatively rural part of the state. Got 2 adjacent exits off of I-57 in Marion that are (North to South) DDI (The Hill Ave) then SPUI (IL 13).

I lived and worked in Peoria, where the FYA has pretty much replaced many/most of the 5 Section Towers -- they work fine, but the traffic pattern and flow and signal phases really are the same as they would be on a 5 Section Tower -- just Permissive is a Flashing Yellow Arrow instead of a Solid Green Ball

[jakeroot]

I guess in full disclosure, I see the FYA solving a problem that doesn't exist, if and only if current PPLT phasing doesn't create the "Yellow Trap" scenario

It solves a problem that largely doesn't exist, but it allows for scenarios that would have previously been impossible. So lead/lag with green orbs is indeed quite rare, but a similar setup, using a dedicated left turn signal, is now possible, without a yellow trap. Lead/lag phasing has become quite common in my area. And while the busiest corridors generally don't use FYAs here (aside from a few municipalities that use the signal at all left turns), the only way municipalities could use permissive phasing, while simultaneously maintaining the lead/lag phasing, would be to utilise the flashing yellow arrow display. It's a very important part of a city's "toolbox" of traffic tools