Curious old NYS reference marker

[empirestate]

Along a path in Van Cortlandt Park beside Mosholu Parkway today, I found this old reference marker off in the bushes: http://flic.kr/p/fMnZca

Mosholu Parkway is actually reference route 908F, and there's a proper modern reference marker close by:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.892754,-73.886069&spn=0.000422,0.000868&t=h&dg=opt&z=21&layer=c&cbll=40.892785,-73.886109&panoid=PnHpfreLveeA-ogsrsXlYw&cbp=12,72.59,,1,8.62

I vaguely recall there had been an earlier system in place for Region 10 marker legends than the one in use currently, but I don't really know the details. Does anybody know, or can you work it out from the legend here?

[dgolub]

Along a path in Van Cortlandt Park beside Mosholu Parkway today, I found this old reference marker off in the bushes: http://flic.kr/p/fMnZca

Mosholu Parkway is actually reference route 908F, and there's a proper modern reference marker close by:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.892754,-73.886069&spn=0.000422,0.000868&t=h&dg=opt&z=21&layer=c&cbll=40.892785,-73.886109&panoid=PnHpfreLveeA-ogsrsXlYw&cbp=12,72.59,,1,8.62

I vaguely recall there had been an earlier system in place for Region 10 marker legends than the one in use currently, but I don't really know the details. Does anybody know, or can you work it out from the legend here?

There were apparently once 2X reference markers on the Manhattan leg of the Triboro Bridge (I-278).  See http://www.empirestateroads.com/sr/refroute10.html.  I've never heard of 4X before.  I wonder whether there were any other routes with the X suffix that we don't know about.

[empirestate]

Good find; I had forgotten that was on there since I compiled that list all those years ago. :-)

What that means in the listing is that, according to the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual from which the list is derived, some or all of the markers cross-referenced in the manual have 2X as the first line of their legend, on record if not actually in the field. (From blurry Street View I do see a marker or two that looks like "2x".) In some cases the number is derived instead from field observation (my own or correspondents').

As for the markers themselves, while I am humbled to find myself among the Internet's foremost authorities on the topic (even NYSDOT has re-referenced my own writing that in turn refers to their own), there's a lot I don't know about some older practices, which makes finding answers on the Internet somewhat difficult.

[Alps]

I didn't notice any reference markers on the Triboro, from the perspective of the pedestrian path on the north side. Remember there were also 1X and 9X. While these are commonly associated with US 1 and 9, it's possible that they were just part of an X system that went from 1 to 9.

[NE2]

Remember there were also 1X and 9X. While these are commonly associated with US 1 and 9, it's possible that they were just part of an X system that went from 1 to 9.

Nah, 9X was first, signed in 1934 as a bypass around the Broadway Bridge via 207th-Bailey-225th or 230th.

[dgolub]

What that means in the listing is that, according to the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual from which the list is derived, some or all of the markers cross-referenced in the manual have 2X as the first line of their legend, on record if not actually in the field. (From blurry Street View I do see a marker or two that looks like "2x".) In some cases the number is derived instead from field observation (my own or correspondents').

Which version of the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual?  I looked through the 2004 version on the state library's web site and didn't see it in there.

[SidS1045]

[I wonder whether there were any other routes with the X suffix that we don't know about.

A portion of the Hutchinson River Parkway was signed for a time in the 1940's as NY-1X.

[empirestate]

What that means in the listing is that, according to the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual from which the list is derived, some or all of the markers cross-referenced in the manual have 2X as the first line of their legend, on record if not actually in the field. (From blurry Street View I do see a marker or two that looks like "2x".) In some cases the number is derived instead from field observation (my own or correspondents').

Which version of the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual?  I looked through the 2004 version on the state library's web site and didn't see it in there.

1998. I don't see it in there either, so I'm guessing my other sentence applies in this case. Probably this was a user contribution.

I didn't notice any reference markers on the Triboro, from the perspective of the pedestrian path on the north side. Remember there were also 1X and 9X. While these are commonly associated with US 1 and 9, it's possible that they were just part of an X system that went from 1 to 9.

You would probably not find any on the bridge itself, as TBTA wouldn't be an agency to erect them. The one I can spot in Street View is on the approach ramp:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.801238,-73.931272&spn=0.006765,0.013894&t=m&dg=opt&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.800848,-73.931351&panoid=cJKlhdnB2hJYMdx46tsWaQ&cbp=12,26.74,,0,0.9

[I wonder whether there were any other routes with the X suffix that we don't know about.

A portion of the Hutchinson River Parkway was signed for a time in the 1940's as NY-1X.

I'm pretty sure the 4X and 2X aren't actual routes in the sense of NY 1X. It seems more like some obsolete system of marking and identifying non-touring route roadways, perhaps analogous to the old 800/900 series secret routes that also appear on markers sometimes.

[vdeane]

Never seen the #X labeled markers, but I've definitely seen that old style.

[Alps]

I didn't notice any reference markers on the Triboro, from the perspective of the pedestrian path on the north side. Remember there were also 1X and 9X. While these are commonly associated with US 1 and 9, it's possible that they were just part of an X system that went from 1 to 9.

You would probably not find any on the bridge itself, as TBTA wouldn't be an agency to erect them. The one I can spot in Street View is on the approach ramp:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.801238,-73.931272&spn=0.006765,0.013894&t=m&dg=opt&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.800848,-73.931351&panoid=cJKlhdnB2hJYMdx46tsWaQ&cbp=12,26.74,,0,0.9

Those ratfuckers. "Sure, photograph your 2X reference marker... for $6.50." How would I get to the 4X, next time I'm on that side of the river?

[NE2]

If you're willing to risk the NYPD you could get to that 2X from the bridge sidewalk without too much trouble.

[Duke87]

Nope. No walkway along that pair of ramps.

Also, it's $7.50 for those who do not have a NY EZPass ($5.33 for those of us who do).

[empirestate]

How would I get to the 4X, next time I'm on that side of the river?

It's on the Old Croton Aqueduct Trail in Van Cortlandt Park, where the trail runs alongside the parkway. In fact, it's where the actual words "Old Croton Aqueduct Trail" appear in this map:
http://vancortlandt.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/FVCP_map_brochure.pdf

I'm surprised it doesn't show up in Street View; it's not particularly buried. It's on the outside (east) edge of the trail, facing both it and the parkway (but not facing parkway motorists).

[NE2]

Nope. No walkway along that pair of ramps.

No, but there's one nearby and http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ma/i-90/3.html

[Alps]

Nope. No walkway along that pair of ramps.

No, but there's one nearby and http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ma/i-90/3.html

that never happened and tunnels don't count

[dgolub]

What that means in the listing is that, according to the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual from which the list is derived, some or all of the markers cross-referenced in the manual have 2X as the first line of their legend, on record if not actually in the field. (From blurry Street View I do see a marker or two that looks like "2x".) In some cases the number is derived instead from field observation (my own or correspondents').

Which version of the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual?  I looked through the 2004 version on the state library's web site and didn't see it in there.

1998. I don't see it in there either, so I'm guessing my other sentence applies in this case. Probably this was a user contribution.

I think the state library's site has going back to at least 1994.  If there's nothing in there, maybe I'll do a FOIL request and see what the oldest version they have on record is.

[empirestate]

Which version of the Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual?  I looked through the 2004 version on the state library's web site and didn't see it in there.

1998. I don't see it in there either, so I'm guessing my other sentence applies in this case. Probably this was a user contribution.

I think the state library's site has going back to at least 1994.  If there's nothing in there, maybe I'll do a FOIL request and see what the oldest version they have on record is.

If you like...I wouldn't go too crazy with it; if it's not in 1998 I doubt it would be in earlier ones (unless we're talking 1960s). Like I said, I probably got that 2X from some other source.

An easy way to get reference marker info, if you have GIS software, is from the NYSDOT inventory shapefile:
http://gis.ny.gov/gisdata/inventories/details.cfm?DSID=1112

Unfortunately that doesn't contain the oddball 2X marker, probably because it's on a TBTA roadway.

Do you have a link to the documents you're finding on the state library site?

[dgolub]

Do you have a link to the documents you're finding on the state library site?

http://www.nysl.nysed.gov/scandoclinks/ocm08157414.htm

It's the second item if you search for "Highway Sufficiency Ratings Manual" on Google.

[Roadgeek Adam]

You found the 4X.

I know there is an 8X reference marker on Fordham Road in the Bronx. I couldn't get my camera out in time to get a shot of it, and this was a couple years ago.

[dgolub]

You found the 4X.

I know there is an 8X reference marker on Fordham Road in the Bronx. I couldn't get my camera out in time to get a shot of it, and this was a couple years ago.

Where?  On the part that's presently US 1 or the part further west?

[Roadgeek Adam]

You found the 4X.

I know there is an 8X reference marker on Fordham Road in the Bronx. I couldn't get my camera out in time to get a shot of it, and this was a couple years ago.

Where?  On the part that's presently US 1 or the part further west?

Closer to the Metro-North station, right around where the road divides. Quick clarification, its on the non-US 1 portion. You have to be going westbound.

[dgolub]

You found the 4X.

I know there is an 8X reference marker on Fordham Road in the Bronx. I couldn't get my camera out in time to get a shot of it, and this was a couple years ago.

Where?  On the part that's presently US 1 or the part further west?

Closer to the Metro-North station, right around where the road divides. Quick clarification, its on the non-US 1 portion. You have to be going westbound.

So that was once maintained by NYSDOT?

[NE2]

I can't find the 8X on the Goog; the road seems to have been rebuilt recently to add bus lanes. Fordham (west to University) used to be US 1, but that doesn't mean it was state maintained.

[Duke87]

This is starting to sound like bonuses in a roadgeek video game.

Triborough Bridge! 2X!
*Van Cortlandt Park! 4X!*
**Fordham Road! 8X!!**
BROOKLYN BRIDGE! 16X!!! YOU ROCK!!

Secret level: Oyster Bay-Rye Bridge

[Roadgeek Adam]

I can't find the 8X on the Goog; the road seems to have been rebuilt recently to add bus lanes. Fordham (west to University) used to be US 1, but that doesn't mean it was state maintained.

I did the same thing, but checking my photos, I have July 24, 2011 as the date I saw it.