Large-enough cities passed over for control-city status

[Shoppingforfood]

However, I-64 does not enter VA Beach as US 13 does, so I-64 is more justified than Route 13.

I-64 does indeed enter Va Beach, though only for about 3 miles or so (about 1 1/2 miles on either side of Indian River Rd). Images from GSV:



SM-S820L

Fair enough.

[michravera]

Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Is Davis really that big?

No, it is a mid-sized farm town, much smaller than Sacramento or Oakland.  It has a UC campus.  No reason for it to be a control city.

I believe that Davis *IS* used as a control city (and a logical one at that) on southbound CASR-113. It is also used as a destination on at least one or two distance signs west of Sacramento.

The purpose of control cities is to give *direction* as well as destination information.

I don't know the entire process by which all of the control cities in California were selected, but "Santa Ana" and "San Diego" were used as names for the freeways themselves (in some cases for 30 or 40 years) before being adopted as control cities.

[roadfro]

I-11    I-10 to I-40
Phoenix  - SB Only
Wickenberg
Kingman  - NB Only

I-11      I-40 to I-15
Kingman  - SB Only
Needles  - SB Only
Hoover Dam
Boulder City
Las Vegas  - NB Only

I-11      I-15 to I-80
Las Vegas  - SB Only
Tonapah
Reno  - NB Only

The only cities on that list that should really be used are Vegas, Reno, and Phoenix.

I would sign Kingman, but only on signs with 2 control cities.

Well, at present, only ~2 miles of I-11 exists and is open to traffic, so the whole list is hypothetical... (But if I-11 were active now, signing Needles doesn't make sense...)

[Roadgeekteen]

Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

[thspfc]

Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
I will leave you with a few numbers.
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

[webny99]

Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
...
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

When you mention it being relative, keep in mind that it should be relative to distance as well as the size of the city. Of course Ann Arbor is much smaller, but it's also much closer. Ann Arbor is a significant regional destination, and much of the traffic on I-94 is probably going there.

In other words, your argument would make sense if we were talking about Gary instead of Ann Arbor, because Gary is comparable to Chicago in terms of distance, while Ann Arbor isn't. I'm fine with Chicago being used, but Ann Arbor isn't "ridiculous". You can make a reasonable case for it.

[Roadgeekteen]

Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
I will leave you with a few numbers.
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

I'm not saying ditch Chicago, just putting Ann Arbor on some signs would be fine.

[hotdogPi]

Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

[JayhawkCO]

Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

[hotdogPi]

Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

[webny99]

Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

I did a double-take at first too, but it made sense once I figured out the 35 and 260 are the distances from Detroit. You're essentially assigning values to the two cities (using distance and population) to find out which one is more relevant as a control city.

Relevant to my point below:

When you mention it being relative, keep in mind that it should be relative to distance as well as the size of the city. Of course Ann Arbor is much smaller, but it's also much closer.

[kphoger]

I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

Did I do this right?

Saint Paul, MN (measuring from I-694)
Eau Claire = 161k/75² = 29
Madison = 654k/250² = 10

Des Moines, IA (measuring from I-80)
Ames = 89k/26² = 132
Minneapolis = 3.6M/237² = 64

This may be an imperfect solution...

[SkyPesos]

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

[webny99]

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

[Roadgeekteen]

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

[webny99]

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

Haha, the math is easy, it's probably just plugging in to the formulas that you're confused by. Here goes:

x = p/d²
p = population of Ann Arbor = 350k
d = distance from Detroit to Ann Arbor = 35 miles
x = 350k/35²
x = 286

x = p/d²
p = population of Chicago = 9.5M
d = distance from Detroit to Chicago = 260 miles
x = 9.5M/260²
x = 141

286 > 141  ∴  Ann Arbor > Chicago (obviously, this isn't perfect)

Wow, that brought back some memories. I probably haven't done math like that since I was your age.

[Roadgeekteen]

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

Haha, the math is easy, it's probably just plugging in to the formulas that you're confused by. Here goes:

x = p/d²
p = population of Ann Arbor = 350k
d = distance from Detroit to Ann Arbor = 35 miles
x = 350k/35²
x = 286

x = p/d²
p = population of Chicago = 9.5M
d = distance from Detroit to Chicago = 260 miles
x = 9.5M/260²
x = 141

286 > 141  ∴  Ann Arbor > Chicago (obviously, this isn't perfect)

Wow, that brought back some memories. I probably haven't done math like that since I was your age.

I get it now.

[SkyPesos]

Metro Population of Detroit: 4,296,250
Distance from Dayton to Detroit via I-75: 209 mi
x = 4296250/209^2
x = 98.355

Metro Population of Toledo: 641,816
Distance from Dayton to Toledo via I-75: 149 mi
x = 641816/149^2
x = 28.909

Guess I should email ODOT to skip Toledo and sign Detroit from Dayton on NB I-75, with this as proof.

[webny99]

I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

[thspfc]

I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

" This is a very relevant statistic, until it doesn't support my side of the debate, then it's irrelevant."

[webny99]

I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

" This is a very relevant statistic, until it doesn't support my side of the debate, then it's irrelevant."

Huh? I already said it was an imperfect statistic, but even then, it does support my side of the Chicago/Ann Arbor debate.

As for Detroit/Toledo, I didn't have a side on that debate. I didn't even know there was a debate about that until just now.

[Rothman]

What madness has gotten into the lot of you?

[SkyPesos]

As for Detroit/Toledo, I didn't have a side on that debate. I didn't even know there was a debate about that until just now.

I was just toying around with the formula. If you have cities A, B and C, with cities B and C close together, and both far from A, and C was a much larger city than B, then city C would 'win' out with the formula over B. This is why I specifically picked Toledo and Detroit from Dayton.

[zachary_amaryllis]

for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

[hotdogPi]

for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

Same with I-93 in Massachusetts (and still is the case): Concord NH is posted, not Manchester NH. Manchester is both closer and larger.