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Interstate 42

Started by LM117, May 27, 2016, 11:39:37 AM

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orulz

I would say a US 17 freeway (probably an interstate) is all but guaranteed from Surfside Beach (just south of Myrtle Beach) to Virginia Beach, but unlikely anywhere else. Upgrading US 17 has always been a high priority for NC. A higher priority than improving I-95, I'd dare say.


sparker

Quote from: orulz on April 24, 2018, 03:52:23 PM
I would say a US 17 freeway (probably an interstate) is all but guaranteed from Surfside Beach (just south of Myrtle Beach) to Virginia Beach, but unlikely anywhere else. Upgrading US 17 has always been a high priority for NC. A higher priority than improving I-95, I'd dare say.

Seeing as how SC NIMBY's, allied with coastal environmentalists, managed to truncate the HPC 5/I-73/74 corridor concept back from Charleston to Georgetown back in the '90's, a limited-access route using or paralleling US 17 isn't likely to extend farther south than the present south end of SC 31.  And NC has not been shy about tending to its tourist traffic, whether along the shoreline or in the Great Smokies region by extending and/or improving facilities serving those areas -- so a N-S corridor along US 17 is probably on their radar; how it would be prioritized in comparison with the plethora of existing projects on the table remains to be determined.  My guess is that spot improvements -- such as a northern extension of the New Bern US 17 bypass -- will be undertaken along with efforts to bring that section of US 70/I-42 up to standards, whenever NCDOT elects to let that project.  And "spurs" to Jacksonville and the Camp Lejeune region crop up for discussion on a regular basis -- so its not difficult to envision all those concepts being strung together for a viable corridor.   Hey, it's NC -- so anything's possible (and possibly probable!).

Bobby5280

Quote from: froggieOnly if you convert the frontage roads to one-way.  While they exist in spades in Texas, slip ramps to two-way frontage roads are generally frowned upon these days for safety reasons.

I assumed those frontage roads on either side of US-70 were one way. I can understand them being two way on the short stretches where there is only one frontage road on one side of the divided highway. Those gaps will have to be filled so there are frontage roads on both sides of the highway the entire way. Then the completed frontage roads will indeed have to be converted to one way operation for slip ramps to work. There's not enough room for the kinds of off ramps needed to connect into 2 way frontage road.

NC DOT can either build one way frontage roads through that area or they can spend a lot of money acquiring extra ROW (and the properties on it) to build traditional diamond shaped exits.

Quote from: orulzI would say a US 17 freeway (probably an interstate) is all but guaranteed from Surfside Beach (just south of Myrtle Beach) to Virginia Beach, but unlikely anywhere else. Upgrading US 17 has always been a high priority for NC. A higher priority than improving I-95, I'd dare say.

Savannah and Charleston are significant destinations along US-17. Between those two cities there are several coastal destinations for tourists. Beaufort is home to the Parris Island Marine Corps base. I can certainly see the need for an new freeway on US-17 or parallel to it to serve that traffic and also make hurricane evacuation more efficient.

US-17 between Charleston and Georgetown is mostly divided 4 lane highway. Some bypass work would be needed in the Charleston and Georgetown areas.

Quote from: sparkerSeeing as how SC NIMBY's, allied with coastal environmentalists, managed to truncate the HPC 5/I-73/74 corridor concept back from Charleston to Georgetown back in the '90's, a limited-access route using or paralleling US 17 isn't likely to extend farther south than the present south end of SC 31.

Given some of the improvement projects on US-17 itself in the Myrtle Beach area (some busy intersections being converted to freeway style exits) the powers that be in that area will eventually be forced to cave and allow better regional traffic access.

The South end of the Carolina Bays Parkway is being extended back into US-17. It would be impossible to convert US-17 South from there into a freeway. But a new alignment could veer off the parkway just past the SC-544 exit near the bridge over the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway. The new road could swing North of Bucksport and then hook into the US-701 corridor on the way SW to Georgetown and then bypass that town on its North side and then hook back into US-17 near the Georgetown airport. From there it would be a more simple upgrade process down to Charleston.

It would be a big project to extend the North end of the Carolina Bays Parkway across the NC state line and then make a new freeway connection into Wilmington. But there is a lot of development along the coast. Back when I was a kid and starting to get nerdy about highways I thought the corridor along or near US-17 between Savannah and Virginia Beach (and even up into Delaware) would have been the obvious location for I-99.

sparker

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 24, 2018, 11:33:19 PM
The South end of the Carolina Bays Parkway is being extended back into US-17. It would be impossible to convert US-17 South from there into a freeway. But a new alignment could veer off the parkway just past the SC-544 exit near the bridge over the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway. The new road could swing North of Bucksport and then hook into the US-701 corridor on the way SW to Georgetown and then bypass that town on its North side and then hook back into US-17 near the Georgetown airport. From there it would be a more simple upgrade process down to Charleston.

Back in SAFETEA-LU days (2005) the HPC-5 compendium that authorized I-73 & 74 in the region was amended (by a SC congressman; I don't recall his/her name presently) to include a branch extending inland more or less along US 521 from Georgetown to I-20 at Camden.  I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but it may not be beyond the realm of possiblity that the extension could be "massaged" a bit to provide access from the SC 31 freeway to at least I-95 somewhere north of the Lake Marion crossing.   Apologies for edging into marginally fictional territory, but such an extension would provide a continuous facility from the southern reaches of I-95 to US 17 points, including, of course, the Norfolk/Hampton Roads area.  That would functionally obviate objections from coastal activists while adhering to present corridor definition.   

LM117

#354
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 24, 2018, 11:33:19 PMBack when I was a kid and starting to get nerdy about highways I thought the corridor along or near US-17 between Savannah and Virginia Beach (and even up into Delaware) would have been the obvious location for I-99.

Virginia thought so too.

http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/I-99_Final_Report_-_VDOT_website.pdf
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

sparker

Quote from: LM117 on April 25, 2018, 06:59:46 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 24, 2018, 11:33:19 PMBack when I was a kid and starting to get nerdy about highways I thought the corridor along or near US-17 between Savannah and Virginia Beach (and even up into Delaware) would have been the obvious location for I-99.

Virginia thought so too.

http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/I-99_Final_Report_-_VDOT_website.pdf

And that report was released 11 years after Bud Shuster's I-99 was designated in PA!  Obviously this report wasn't, at least in that regard, particularly concerned with context!  It was interesting to read the various states' reaction (generally "yeah, we'd kinda like something like this, but...............") to the coastal corridor proposal (and per usual, only NC prospects were given more than a vague chance of actually happening!).  The only thing that one can realistically take away from this document is the closing-statement suggestion that at minimum corridor preservation be instituted in the event that financial situations changed (and the report timeframe being 2006, that hasn't yet occurred in most jurisdictions).  Otherwise, the report isn't particularly optimistic about overall corridor prospects.

US 89

#356
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 24, 2018, 03:35:10 PM
For a long time I've thought much or all of US-17 between Savannah and Virginia Beach should be upgraded to Interstate quality. Some parts, like Savannah to Charleston, would be tricky to build. That segment would provide better access to the Parris Island Marine Corps base. The Myrtle Beach area is growing. Things lead on up into Wilmington and points North.

The part between Charleston and Myrtle Beach would be especially hard to upgrade to Interstate quality. There are several segments with a lot of driveways (especially some areas of Mount Pleasant and Pawleys Island) that you'd have to use one-way frontage roads with slip ramps. For the most part, it looks like there's enough ROW for that, with the possible exception of the places listed above.

The worst part would be constructing a freeway bypass of Georgetown, which I can see two ways to do. The first would be to build a bypass to the west and north of the city, which would be a very indirect route. It would also require at least three major bridges, over the Sampit, Pee Dee, and Waccamaw River (and maybe even the Black River, depending on how far up the river it's built). The second alternative would be to directly cross Winyah Bay south of Georgetown. That would require one huge bridge, and it would likely be less environmentally friendly.

wdcrft63

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 24, 2018, 11:33:19 PM

The South end of the Carolina Bays Parkway is being extended back into US-17. It would be impossible to convert US-17 South from there into a freeway. But a new alignment could veer off the parkway just past the SC-544 exit near the bridge over the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway. The new road could swing North of Bucksport and then hook into the US-701 corridor on the way SW to Georgetown and then bypass that town on its North side and then hook back into US-17 near the Georgetown airport. From there it would be a more simple upgrade process down to Charleston.

It would be a big project to extend the North end of the Carolina Bays Parkway across the NC state line and then make a new freeway connection into Wilmington. But there is a lot of development along the coast. Back when I was a kid and starting to get nerdy about highways I thought the corridor along or near US-17 between Savannah and Virginia Beach (and even up into Delaware) would have been the obvious location for I-99.

The Carolina Bays Parkway is being extended to SC 707, but there's no plan, as far as I know, to extend it to US 17.

NCDOT has a feasibility study on the extension of the north end of the Parkway to connect to US 17.
https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/CBP/

There's a plan to remove the one at-grade intersection on the US 17 bypass of Shallotte, but, as far as I know, there aren't any other plans to upgrade US 17 to a freeway between Wilmington and SC.

orulz

The reason I don't think anything's going to get built in SC is that SC's gas tax is just too low. They just don't have the money to make improvements like these. NC has (I think) the highest gas tax in the south but by golly we have the rural freeways to show for it.

US 89

Quote from: orulz on April 25, 2018, 11:17:59 PM
The reason I don't think anything's going to get built in SC is that SC's gas tax is just too low. They just don't have the money to make improvements like these. NC has (I think) the highest gas tax in the south but by golly we have the rural freeways to show for it.

You can tell who has more road money just by driving across the state line and comparing. I remember crossing from SC into NC on a shitty road which turned into a well-maintained, smooth road.

sparker

Quote from: roadguy2 on April 25, 2018, 11:42:36 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 25, 2018, 11:17:59 PM
The reason I don't think anything's going to get built in SC is that SC's gas tax is just too low. They just don't have the money to make improvements like these. NC has (I think) the highest gas tax in the south but by golly we have the rural freeways to show for it.

You can tell who has more road money just by driving across the state line and comparing. I remember crossing from SC into NC on a shitty road which turned into a well-maintained, smooth road.

So -- what's the gas tax rate in other Seaboard states such as VA, GA, etc.?  Besides the SC example, might provide at least a partial explanation for policy differences.

LM117

Quote from: michealbond on April 26, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
From 2013, but not much has changed. Sorry for such a large picture size!



SC's gas tax was raised to 18 cents, which took effect at the beginning of this year. It was one of the first things the SC legislature did after Nikki Haley left office...
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Rothman

I believe NJ had a tax hike, too.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

RoadPelican

I think the gas tax rate for NC went down slightly in the last few years.  NC uses a formula where the gas tax is based on the price of a gallon of gas, the lower the gas price the lower the tax and vice versa.  I believe the current rate is around 34 cents/gallon with a floor of 30 cents/gallon.  The 30 cent floor was passed by the legislature sometime in 2015 when gas went from $3.50/gallon down to under $2.

froggie

Quite a bit has actually changed since 2013.  Besides what was mentioned for other states, Virginia lowered their per-gallon gas tax rate but also began a percentage tax rate for gas at the wholesale level.  Vermont, New Hampshire, and Minnesota have also changed their gas tax rates.

wdcrft63

Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2018, 03:45:29 PM
Quite a bit has actually changed since 2013.  Besides what was mentioned for other states, Virginia lowered their per-gallon gas tax rate but also began a percentage tax rate for gas at the wholesale level.  Vermont, New Hampshire, and Minnesota have also changed their gas tax rates.

The American Petroleum Institute has complete and up-to-date information on gas tax rates here:
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas/consumer-information/motor-fuel-taxes

Bobby5280

That table has Oklahoma ranked #49 in the nation on fuel tax rates. Oklahoma's fuel tax is going up 3¢ per gallon for gasoline and 6¢ for diesel as a result of House Bill 1010xx. For the first year money from the tax hike will go into education -particularly to fund very long overdue pay raises for teachers. Next year the fuel tax increase will go into the Rebuilding Oklahoma Access and Driver Safety fund. Some of the state income tax money that had been going into the ROADS fund will go into education. Hopefully the increase in ROADS funding will speed up the reduction of repairs on roads and bridges in critical need of repair.

Quote from: wdcrft63The Carolina Bays Parkway is being extended to SC 707, but there's no plan, as far as I know, to extend it to US 17.

Oops. I guess I didn't look closely enough where that South extension was ending in Google Earth. I confused SC-707 for US-17.

sparker

#367
Well -- the map and associated data displayed above tells quite a story about available revenue for road improvement or expansion.   Sorry that I hadn't put those particular dots together before chiming in about building new facilities (particularly new Interstate mileage) in states lacking the fiscal means to undertake discretionary projects.  If a jurisdiction simply lacks the wherewithal to undertake projects that wouldn't faze adjoining states with considerably higher rates, then that's a matter that needs to be resolved within the political and/or administrative mechanisms of the state itself.   Just goes to show that everything needs to be addressed in context.

orulz

Yes. If you ever wonder why NCDOT is so bent on putting interstates everywhere, take note that NC has gas taxes in line with Illinos or Michigan, but roads last longer (due to weather/salt) and construction costs are lower (fewer unions).

LM117

“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Henry

Quote from: orulz on May 01, 2018, 12:24:15 PM
Yes. If you ever wonder why NCDOT is so bent on putting interstates everywhere, take note that NC has gas taxes in line with Illinos or Michigan, but roads last longer (due to weather/salt) and construction costs are lower (fewer unions).
And I wouldn't be surprised if they trolled our Fictional section for their new highway ideas either, because I do remember reading some proposals there long before they actually came to be.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

sparker

Quote from: Henry on May 24, 2018, 09:38:22 AM
Quote from: orulz on May 01, 2018, 12:24:15 PM
Yes. If you ever wonder why NCDOT is so bent on putting interstates everywhere, take note that NC has gas taxes in line with Illinos or Michigan, but roads last longer (due to weather/salt) and construction costs are lower (fewer unions).
And I wouldn't be surprised if they trolled our Fictional section for their new highway ideas either, because I do remember reading some proposals there long before they actually came to be.

Whether or not our threads are the actual source of the NC Interstate impetus, the fact remains that pretty much all viable suggestions (US 74 from Columbus to Rockingham, US 17 overall) either have already been incorporated into Interstate corridors or are part of the overall state improvement plan (similar in concept to the original California "freeway & expressway" plans dating back to '59).  NCDOT has a master plan, and they're sticking to it as funding and in-state political pressure dictates.  Contrast this to their immediate northern neighbor, with a gas tax rate well less than half of NC's, and a commonwealth-driven policy process that favors "bottom-up" or locally promulgated projects over new freeway mileage (understandable given persistent funding shortfalls).  That in itself underscores the probability that new NC Interstate mileage may, for the time being, simply terminate at the state line.   

LM117

The US-70 Corridor Commission has posted the Director's Report for March & April. The minutes from February's meeting still haven't been posted yet.

http://www.super70corridor.com/wp-content/uploads/Mar_Apr_2018-Directors-Report.pdf

Highlights:

–Kinston Bypass
Draft Environmental Impact Statement–Summer 2018
Select Preferred Alternative–Fall 2018
Final Environmental Impact Statement–Winter 2020
ROW acquisition–2022
Construction–2025

–US-70/Willie Measley Road interchange near La Grange
Finding of No Significant Impact–Fall 2018
ROW acquisition–2023
Construction–2024
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

froggie

Also mentioned this in the North Carolina thread, but the Raleigh News & Observer is reporting that the state won a Federal grant to widen two sections of I-95 (on each side of Fayetteville) and also upgrade two sections of US 70 to Interstate-grade.  The US 70 sections are "from the U.S. 70 Bypass near Selma east to Pondfield Road near Princeton, while the other section runs from a proposed interchange at Thurman Road, south of New Bern, to the planned Havelock Bypass."

LM117

Quote from: froggie on June 06, 2018, 06:06:12 AM
Also mentioned this in the North Carolina thread, but the Raleigh News & Observer is reporting that the state won a Federal grant to widen two sections of I-95 (on each side of Fayetteville) and also upgrade two sections of US 70 to Interstate-grade.  The US 70 sections are "from the U.S. 70 Bypass near Selma east to Pondfield Road near Princeton, while the other section runs from a proposed interchange at Thurman Road, south of New Bern, to the planned Havelock Bypass."

:clap:
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette



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