Signals/Stop Signs at Same Intersection Shawnee OK

Started by Brian556, May 07, 2018, 05:22:42 PM

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Brian556



D-Dey65


bzakharin


freebrickproductions

We have a one like that here in Huntsville. It's at the intersection of Spragins Street & Monroe Street, where Spragins Street has a stop sign, and the signals are for a bike/pedestrian crossing on Monroe Street. However, traffic on Spragins Street is only allowed to turn right. Street view isn't new enough to show the signals though, as they were put up late last year

Governors Drive & 2nd Street here in Huntsville is also kinda similar, though it lacks the stop sign. Traffic coming off of 2nd Street is supposed to only turn right as the signals are for ambulances (as the intersection is right next to an ambulance station) and pedestrians trying to cross Governors:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7197053,-86.6013408,3a,74.8y,8.45h,91.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5zkeKUTYztvSH9p5Lapk2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Revive 755

Quote from: Brian556 on May 07, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
There is a crosswalk across the major street. The signals are for the crosswalk only. The side street has stop signs.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3192912,-96.9248558,3a,75y,2.39h,101.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swxh87EtEAzaL1PfgHlSGoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think this setup is not all that rare - IIRC there are a few of these in Nebraska.

IIRC half signals became non-MUTCD compliant due to concerns with vehicles turning onto the main street from the side street while the main street traffic was stopped.

jakeroot

#5
Revival! Another city this time:

At the intersection of Roy & 1st Ave N in Seattle, two of the three approaches were controlled by a signal: northbound double left turn (yield to peds) from 1st Ave, and the westbound through movement along Roy (formerly one way). The southbound right turn from 1st Ave was a stop sign with flashing beacon, along with an accompanying "STOP FOR PEDS WHEN TURNING" sign.

Current intersection uses a signal for all approaches, and Roy is now two-way. Seattle continues to have a lot of half-signals (signalised crossings with stop signs and signals), but this is fairly unusual in having a four-way intersection where one of the "side" approaches does actually have a stop sign.


ErmineNotyours

The California version is a steady single red light with no signs.  Eventually the motorist will figure out that you can turn right on red.  I can't find an example now.  I first found an example when researching the sign "This light never turns green," but now I can't find any examples.

jakeroot

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 20, 2020, 11:23:32 PM
The California version is a steady single red light with no signs.  Eventually the motorist will figure out that you can turn right on red.  I can't find an example now.  I first found an example when researching the sign "This light never turns green," but now I can't find any examples.

I always thought that example was somewhere in New Jersey.

jamess

It looks like a legal HAWK signal settup - but without confusing drivers that dont understand what a HAWK is.

DaBigE

The cousin to the examples posted earlier:
Sidestreet Stop + Hybrid Beacon + full Bike Signals all at the same intersection: https://goo.gl/maps/Br6xD9x7Mbrs3A789
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stevashe

#10
Quote from: jakeroot on January 20, 2020, 05:30:52 PM
Seattle continues to have a lot of half-signals (signalised crossings with stop signs and signals), but this is fairly unusual in having a four-way intersection where one of the "side" approaches does actually have a stop sign.

Yes indeed there is, a typical example being 24th Ave NW & NW 61st St, with signals for the main street (24th here) and stop signs for the side street (61st) and the signal turning red to let pedestrians cross.

And I know for a fact more are coming, since I was involved in the design of this project on Lake City Way which will add two half signals, with one of them even including a bike crossing!

Scott5114

I've seen one HAWK in all of Oklahoma, and despite driving under it every day, I've never seen anyone actually activate it.
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jeffandnicole

Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2020, 01:13:32 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 20, 2020, 11:23:32 PM
The California version is a steady single red light with no signs.  Eventually the motorist will figure out that you can turn right on red.  I can't find an example now.  I first found an example when researching the sign "This light never turns green," but now I can't find any examples.

I always thought that example was somewhere in New Jersey.

There's this one, for right turning traffic: https://goo.gl/maps/5VGjEHxa1tnfebtn7

Left turns get a green left arrow w/Red ball; there's no permitted straight movement. https://goo.gl/maps/ArWAn5hqDZSTfXyt6movement

Even by NJ standards, it's a very unusual configuration.

stevashe

Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 02:58:13 AM
The new one along 15th in Ballard includes a bike cut-through: https://goo.gl/maps/N8b1e5ktVqEXfoPZ9

Good find! Though the one going in on Lake City Way (at NE 82nd St) will have bike-specific signals as well (and the green bike crossing markings).

Quote from: jakeroot
I've always liked these, although I wish the signals flashed green or something, as it can be rather perplexing to witness a car apparently running a red light. Hell, a "crosswalk" sign would go a long ways.

I assume you mean at other half signal intersections that don't have the median blocking left/through movements like the one on 15th? And you know, I did propose W11-2 signs on the half signals at first, but the city commented and said to remove them, so I guess they don't think it's necessary, though the Lake City Way intersections will have medians blocking left/straight as well so it shouldn't be much of an issue.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2020, 04:03:28 AM
I've seen one HAWK in all of Oklahoma, and despite driving under it every day, I've never seen anyone actually activate it.

This.

I've seen more than one, but I've only ever seen a HAWK in use one time.  If it weren't for this forum, I wouldn't even have known what to do.
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jbnv

I'm at my office in Baton Rouge. I can't tell you where the nearest HAWK is or where to find one in Baton Rouge.
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jay8g

I'm very much of the opinion that HAWK beacons are far less intuitive than traditional/Seattle-style half signals, having seen both in action quite a bit around here (half signals in the city and HAWK beacons in the suburbs).

That being said, I'm certainly not a fan of the three-quarter signals being discussed here. Seattle does still have at least two of those around, at Leary Way NW and NW 43rd St, and at Lake City Way NE and NE 127th St. I walk through the first one frequently, and it does seem to work, but that's largely because there's almost never a car on the east leg when I'm there. The second one is a bit different for a few reasons -- it's a driveway (not a street), it doesn't have a stop sign (I guess they figured that's implied since it's a driveway), and it's got flashing beacons (3M PV beacons even!). Both cases are right turn only like Jakeroot's example above, but I still don't know why they didn't install signal heads for the fourth movement -- something like this (signal heads with flashing yellow right arrows at the bottom) seems perfect for this type of situation.

jakeroot

Quote from: jay8g on January 26, 2020, 01:56:11 AM
That being said, I'm certainly not a fan of the three-quarter signals being discussed here. Seattle does still have at least two of those around, at Leary Way NW and NW 43rd St, and at Lake City Way NE and NE 127th St. I walk through the first one frequently, and it does seem to work, but that's largely because there's almost never a car on the east leg when I'm there. The second one is a bit different for a few reasons -- it's a driveway (not a street), it doesn't have a stop sign (I guess they figured that's implied since it's a driveway), and it's got flashing beacons (3M PV beacons even!). Both cases are right turn only like Jakeroot's example above, but I still don't know why they didn't install signal heads for the fourth movement -- something like this (signal heads with flashing yellow right arrows at the bottom) seems perfect for this type of situation.

Wow, I had no idea that there were more of those three-quarter signals! The one in Lake City surprises me, as it's a more "suburban" location (large parking lots, not as many sidewalks), compared to the decidedly-urban feel of the rest (with urban areas having more unusual things, from my experience). I find them a bit problematic because, instinctively, you yield to oncoming cars when turning left. None of these three-quarter signals (past and/or present) have any sort of indication that oncoming traffic actually yields to you.

US71

Quote from: jbnv on January 24, 2020, 04:26:21 PM
I'm at my office in Baton Rouge. I can't tell you where the nearest HAWK is or where to find one in Baton Rouge.

Fayetteville, AR has them in strategic locations, but I've yet to see any here in Fort Smith.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

GaryV

We have several HAWK signals installed in our area in the last couple years.  I'm not sure how people are supposed to know what they are without massive PSA's.  They didn't even have a "Stop When Flashing" sign to let people know what they were supposed to do. 

And yes, they get very little usage, at least when I've been driving past them.

One of them replaced a standard traffic signal at the side street, with pedestrian signals.  Now the side street has a stop sign, and the crosswalk has HAWK, and the main street has an island in what used to be the center turn lane, so you can't turn left onto the side street.  What's the sense in that?

Another, in front of senior housing, used to have a standard traffic signal with pedestrian signals.  The traffic signal was removed.  They put the HAWK in after public outcry about taking away the signal.  OK, so now the seniors have a signal to cross the main street - but the side street they have to be aware of cars that, although they have a stop sign, might not be watching for pedestrians as they try to break into the main street's traffic flow.

jakeroot

Quote from: GaryV on January 26, 2020, 01:03:46 PM
One of them replaced a standard traffic signal at the side street, with pedestrian signals.  Now the side street has a stop sign, and the crosswalk has HAWK, and the main street has an island in what used to be the center turn lane, so you can't turn left onto the side street.  What's the sense in that?

Where is the location? Other than "Southeast Michigan".

mrsman

Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2020, 03:47:24 AM
Quote from: jay8g on January 26, 2020, 01:56:11 AM
That being said, I'm certainly not a fan of the three-quarter signals being discussed here. Seattle does still have at least two of those around, at Leary Way NW and NW 43rd St, and at Lake City Way NE and NE 127th St. I walk through the first one frequently, and it does seem to work, but that's largely because there's almost never a car on the east leg when I'm there. The second one is a bit different for a few reasons -- it's a driveway (not a street), it doesn't have a stop sign (I guess they figured that's implied since it's a driveway), and it's got flashing beacons (3M PV beacons even!). Both cases are right turn only like Jakeroot's example above, but I still don't know why they didn't install signal heads for the fourth movement -- something like this (signal heads with flashing yellow right arrows at the bottom) seems perfect for this type of situation.

Wow, I had no idea that there were more of those three-quarter signals! The one in Lake City surprises me, as it's a more "suburban" location (large parking lots, not as many sidewalks), compared to the decidedly-urban feel of the rest (with urban areas having more unusual things, from my experience). I find them a bit problematic because, instinctively, you yield to oncoming cars when turning left. None of these three-quarter signals (past and/or present) have any sort of indication that oncoming traffic actually yields to you.

In my view, I also find the half-signal superior to the HAWK.  For main street traffic, they face the traditional RYG, so they will stop appropriately upon the peds signaling for the signal.  I guess since the side street traffic faces a stop sign, the side street traffic will never be able to actuate a main street red, unless a driver gets out of his car to push the button.  Of course, if a pedestrain happens to be crossing at the same time, this may benefit the side street traffic as they can take advantage of that to make it easier to go straight or even to turn as the pedestrian caused the main street traffic to stop.  But yes, legally, a side street driver could go across the intersection, even though it is jarring to the main street driver who assumes they ran a red.

The three quarter signals do indeed seem problematic.  L.A. handles this situation with a specialized singal on the fourth leg:

Look at this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0551924,-118.3863759,3a,75y,283.14h,91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2ZZeSjhAyFRjjTSScLlR2A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D2ZZeSjhAyFRjjTSScLlR2A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D213.32854%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The main street (Pico Blvd) is controlled with a standard RYG.  If you pan around, you can see that Livonia Ave is controlled by a RYG with green light illuminated.  If you pan back around to my image capture, you will notice a red signal illuminated in the middle position.  This signal is RED-Flashing RED-Yellow.  Basically, the bank parking lot traffic that is exiting sees a flashing red during the times that Livonia sees a green.  Since it is a stop sign, techinally, bank traffic must watch opposing traffic and even when going straight is supposed to yield to any Livonia traffic that turns left.  IMO, this is very weird and likely to cause accidents.  In practice, most people treat the flashing red like a green, with slightly more caution.  IMO, I'd prefer a regular RYG signal here.  To the extent that there are issues with lots of cars turning left, that can be handled with left turn arrows.  While I normally dislike split-phasing, it may be appropriate here as there is very little thru traffic where a side street leads to a bank parking lot, so not many people going straight-through, and significant amount of turning at Pico.



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