Signs with Logically Flawed Messages

[webny99]

Here's a thread for discussion of - and posting pictures of - signs that don't necessarily have design errors, but are misleading or instruct motorists to settle for a sub-par alternative.

For example, a sign showing an upcoming exit as being for a certain city when there are better or faster ways to reach that city.

I think this happens fairly often, and the more you think about it the more examples you'll find. A new one popped up in the wild on Ridge Road in Webster the other day which I will photograph and add here at the earliest opportunity.

[hotdogPi]

I-93 southbound between Exit 44 (I-495) and Exit 43 (MA 133) in Massachusetts. These attractions are in downtown Lowell; anyone wanting to go to them would already have taken Exit 44A. This sign makes perfect sense approaching Exit 43 northbound but absolutely no sense southbound.



EDIT: https → http so that the image shows again

[plain]

This would definitely count as misleading.

Signs on I-95 suggesting services are available on VA 150 (Exit 67 SB, Exit 67B NB). The problem is VA 150 is a full freeway in this area (the only non-freeway section is nowhere near here and even so there's no services along that stretch either). To reach these services, one has to exit I-95 onto VA 150, then exit VA 150 onto US 1/301 where they're actually located. These signs shouldn't be here at all.

Images from GSV:



SM-S820L

[freebrickproductions]

The signs for Exit 351 on I-65 in Athens, AL, I'd say are logically flawed, as they list Huntsville as a control city for US 72, even though anyone heading north on I-65 to get to Huntsville would've already taken I-565 and anyone heading south on I-65 to Huntsville would've taken TN 7 to AL 53. In fact, US 72 isn't even a good drive once you reach Madison as it usually has pretty heavy traffic between Madison and Huntsville.

Google street view of the signs:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7785995,-86.9398161,3a,16.7y,32.44h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shNl7rT_aOoB2BfoLMGWAvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7872922,-86.939666,3a,37y,239.73h,85.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2_Tc1dvrktSMMStTW5OBrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jeffandnicole]

The signs for Exit 351 on I-65 in Athens, AL, I'd say are logically flawed, as they list Huntsville as a control city for US 72, even though anyone heading north on I-65 to get to Huntsville would've already taken I-565 and anyone heading south on I-65 to Huntsville would've taken TN 7 to AL 53. In fact, US 72 isn't even a good drive once you reach Madison as it usually has pretty heavy traffic between Madison and Huntsville.

Google street view of the signs:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7785995,-86.9398161,3a,16.7y,32.44h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shNl7rT_aOoB2BfoLMGWAvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7872922,-86.939666,3a,37y,239.73h,85.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2_Tc1dvrktSMMStTW5OBrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's still interchanges between 7 & 565 that people can get on, and then take this exit, making US 72 a logical choice for Huntsville.   In most cases, how heavy traffic is isn't a criteria in choosing a destination.  It's also a good alternative route should a problem exist on the other roads.

[freebrickproductions]

The signs for Exit 351 on I-65 in Athens, AL, I'd say are logically flawed, as they list Huntsville as a control city for US 72, even though anyone heading north on I-65 to get to Huntsville would've already taken I-565 and anyone heading south on I-65 to Huntsville would've taken TN 7 to AL 53. In fact, US 72 isn't even a good drive once you reach Madison as it usually has pretty heavy traffic between Madison and Huntsville.

Google street view of the signs:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7785995,-86.9398161,3a,16.7y,32.44h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shNl7rT_aOoB2BfoLMGWAvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7872922,-86.939666,3a,37y,239.73h,85.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2_Tc1dvrktSMMStTW5OBrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's still interchanges between 7 & 565 that people can get on, and then take this exit, making US 72 a logical choice for Huntsville.   In most cases, how heavy traffic is isn't a criteria in choosing a destination.  It's also a good alternative route should a problem exist on the other roads.

Still less logical for northbound traffic, though you are correct on southbound traffic (which I realized shortly after posting), though I'd imagine many people would probably continue onto I-565 anyways.

[SectorZ]

I-93 southbound between Exit 44 (I-495) and Exit 43 (MA 133) in Massachusetts. These attractions are in downtown Lowell; anyone wanting to go to them would already have taken Exit 44A. This sign makes perfect sense approaching Exit 43 northbound but absolutely no sense southbound.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6303862,-71.2637621,3a,32.8y,113.32h,88.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD35O3zzrIY-0obrOTJaRig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

They do that same odd thing on 495 north, directing people to attractions in Lowell by getting off at exit 39 (MA 133) and backtracking, rather than earlier at exit 38 (MA 38) or exit 35C (Lowell Connector). Pisser part is that none of 133 is a state maintained road, where as parts of 38 and all of the Connector is, and my town is quite irritated because of that.

[jakeroot]

The biggest flaws in logic that I notice in my area are guide signs telling you to turn in whatever direction, even though it's not the fastest way for anyone in any situation.

Most egregious offender: this "TO I-5 [RT ARROW]" sign in Tacoma (city installed -- WSDOT does not use these types of signs).

If you zoom out of Street View, you can see that going straight through the intersection, and making a slight left after a block will take you to I-705 (where these signs actually lead). Following the city's sign will take you either all the way S 21st (6 blocks north to an extremely short 'left turn on green arrow only' signal (thanks to the light rail), or all the way to the actual I-5 ramps at S 27th and S 28th St's (12 or 13 blocks from the first sign). I see traffic back up every day along Pacific Ave in Tacoma. And while I'm not blaming this sign for all traffic woes, I don't see why the city insists on exacerbating the situation by telling even more drivers to use this road. The trailblazer is right next to two hotels and a convention center, and I know a lot of unfamiliar drivers use the sign.

[roadman]

I-93 southbound between Exit 44 (I-495) and Exit 43 (MA 133) in Massachusetts. These attractions are in downtown Lowell; anyone wanting to go to them would already have taken Exit 44A. This sign makes perfect sense approaching Exit 43 northbound but absolutely no sense southbound.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6303862,-71.2637621,3a,32.8y,113.32h,88.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD35O3zzrIY-0obrOTJaRig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

They do that same odd thing on 495 north, directing people to attractions in Lowell by getting off at exit 39 (MA 133) and backtracking, rather than earlier at exit 38 (MA 38) or exit 35C (Lowell Connector). Pisser part is that none of 133 is a state maintained road, where as parts of 38 and all of the Connector is, and my town is quite irritated because of that.

The Attractions signs on I-93 and I-495 you mention were installed in 2000 and 2001 under a MassHighway contract at the request of the Massachusetts Office of Travel and Tourism (MOTT) - who identified the sign locations, and were funded by a special earmark to MOTT in the Legislature's budget.  Unlike 'standard' Attractions sign applications, where the facility requests the sign directly, the individual LOGOS for inclusion on the MOTT signs were submitted by the local tourist councils, and vetted by MOTT before the sign locations and legends were forwarded to MassHighway for inclusion in the contract.

Note that MassHighway/MassDOT's current Supplemental Sign Policy normally does not permit installation of Attractions or other service signs for freeway to freeway connections, which is why the MOTT signs on I-93 direct traffic via Route 133 (Exit 43) instead of I-495 south (Exit 44B), and why the MOTT signs on I-495 direct traffic via Exit 39 (Route 133) instead of Exit 35C (Lowell Connector).  I suspect that the signs on I-495 were installed at Exit 39 instead of at Exit 38 to minimize the number of trailblazing signs required between the exit and the facility.

[roadman65]

I do not know if this counts, but in NJ they use Bedminster on I-287 which has no mention at any of its two exits.  At Exit 26 for CR 523 Spur it is signed for Lamington which is a rural community inside of the Township of Bedminster.  At Exit 29 which is the I-287 interchange there is no mention of Bedminster at all despite it being connected to its business district along US 202 via the first exit north on I-287 which are not trailblazed from I-78.

If you are going to use a control city then you should use one that is well marked along the way.
.
The NJ Turnpike in Woodbridge does it with signing the Outerbridge Crossing. Instead of using Exit 11, which is the fastest way, it signed via Exit 10 which is sort of past that crossing and dog legging back.  Yes, it is direct as you transfer only to NJ 440 which goes right to it as supposed to Exit 11 which you have to use the GSP service road to NJ 184 and then after a few stop lights re-enter the freeway system on NJ 440 to the bridge.

Then coming out of Newark Airport you have both I-95 and the NJ Turnpike SB being signed two different ways.  For the interstate it is directing you via I-78 EB while the NJ Turnpike  it is signing you via US 1 & 9 and unsigned NJ 81.  Both are the same road but if you sign one for the most direct way, then sign them both.


Then some of us know too well how PennDOT signs "Trenton" on US 1 in Langhorne to get off the freeway onto I-95 N Bound while the said city is only a few miles ahead on US 1 and all freeway!  Sending you on I-95 does not only take you out of the way, but once on I-95 you have to use expressway grade NJ 29, or two lane US 206 with many stop lights, or even US 1 again.

Also in Florida we have the control city of Apopka on US 441 N Bound which is for FL 414 westbound.  However, Apopka is located 3 miles beyond the said interchange.  Once on FL 414 you are then directed by a Apopka Next 2 Exits sign with one road coming into the city from the side.  Take the second exit and find yourself past Apopka and then using the original US 441 going in the opposite direction to return to it! 

[akotchi]

Then some of us know too well how PennDOT signs "Trenton" on US 1 in Langhorne to get off the freeway onto I-95 N Bound while the said city is only a few miles ahead on US 1 and all freeway!  Sending you on I-95 does not only take you out of the way, but once on I-95 you have to use expressway grade NJ 29, or two lane US 206 with many stop lights, or even US 1 again.

This is no longer the case . . . The signs for the interstate (now 295) say Princeton.  There are no pull-through signs for U.S. 1 in this area, but the ones a few miles downstream say both Morrisville and Trenton.

Then coming out of Newark Airport you have both I-95 and the NJ Turnpike SB being signed two different ways.  For the interstate it is directing you via I-78 EB while the NJ Turnpike  it is signing you via US 1 & 9 and unsigned NJ 81.  Both are the same road but if you sign one for the most direct way, then sign them both.

November 2017 Streetview images show I-95 and the Turnpike signed together (for both directions) coming out of the terminals.  I guess the Port Authority redid the airport signing recently, which I was not aware of, and now have a few APLs.  (I've done work on the roadways around the airport, but very rarely go onto the terminal roadways.)

Your concerns (at least the ones I know about) have been noted, heard and fixed!

[NE2]

[Michael]

I drove past two sign assemblies like this yesterday!

The first one is on Solar St in Syracuse.  This sign tells you to go left to get to I-690 eastbound.  This is fine if you're traveling to the other side of downtown, but the closest ramp to I-690 eastbound is to the right.  When I saw the sign, I thought "Why are they sending you that way?  I-690 is the other way."

The second one is on West Genesee St in Camillus.  This sign tells you to go to right to get to NY 5 west.  I just assumed it was leading you to the Camillus Bypass to avoid the village of Camillus, and didn't think about it until I was typing this post.  It turns out that it's shorter and quicker to go straight through the village of Camillus than it is to turn right to get to the Camillus Bypass.

This past Saturday, I drove past another one that's always puzzled me.  In Weedsport, signs direct you to go to the second stoplight here and turn right to get to the Thruway.  It makes more sense to turn right at the first light so you won't have to turn back onto NY 34 further north.  The only explanation that makes sense to me is that it's because trucks aren't allowed to turn right at the first light.

[webny99]

Seems apropos that it's on a stop sign, since one must typically cease other activities first.

So what's the logical flaw? 

[1995hoo]

Seems apropos that it's on a stop sign, since one must typically cease other activities first.

So what's the logical flaw? 

I don't know about you, but I start another activity when I go to do that (specifically, I start reading).

[vdeane]

I drove past two sign assemblies like this yesterday!

The first one is on Solar St in Syracuse.  This sign tells you to go left to get to I-690 eastbound.  This is fine if you're traveling to the other side of downtown, but the closest ramp to I-690 eastbound is to the right.  When I saw the sign, I thought "Why are they sending you that way?  I-690 is the other way."

The second one is on West Genesee St in Camillus.  This sign tells you to go to right to get to NY 5 west.  I just assumed it was leading you to the Camillus Bypass to avoid the village of Camillus, and didn't think about it until I was typing this post.  It turns out that it's shorter and quicker to go straight through the village of Camillus than it is to turn right to get to the Camillus Bypass.

This past Saturday, I drove past another one that's always puzzled me.  In Weedsport, signs direct you to go to the second stoplight here and turn right to get to the Thruway.  It makes more sense to turn right at the first light so you won't have to turn back onto NY 34 further north.  The only explanation that makes sense to me is that it's because trucks aren't allowed to turn right at the first light.

The last one is probably the trucks.  The other two look to be a case of directing people to get to the freeway as quickly as possible.

[GenExpwy]

The ones that bug me are on I-86 around Bath NY. Before exits 38 eastbound and 39 westbound are supplemental signs:

Keuka Lake
NEXT 2 EXITS

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3616309,-77.3493515,3a,15y,176.08h,90.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAb0Jg4-kY8P9b-GO_5_B4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The point being that from either exit, you drive to the intersection of Washington and Liberty Streets in Bath, then take NY 54 north to Keuka Lake at Hammondsport. The second exit in either direction is just backtracking, which is especially stupid eastbound.

Satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.333023,-77.3087652,4596m/data=!3m1!1e3
Second exit eastbound: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3514373,-77.3453718/42.351741,-77.3046797/@42.33325,-77.3300361,4599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-77.2832849!2d42.315283!3s0x89d1adfddcdb48ef:0x704f2c44c82daa3b!1m0!3e0

[roadman65]

What about the Garden State Parkway S Bound  to US 22 E Bound?  Its more logical to use Exit 141 to Vauxhall Road E Bound and then right onto US 22 E Bound, yet signs guide you to exit at US 22 W Bound and make the complicated U Turn through the ramps leading to and from NJ 82 E Bound.

Even going the other way from US 22 W Bound to the Parkway NB, signs tell you to exit at Vauxhall Road WB and then enter the ramp to the Parkway.  So why not do the opposing movement the same exact way?

[J N Winkler]

Seems apropos that it's on a stop sign, since one must typically cease other activities first.

So what's the logical flaw? 

I don't know about you, but I start another activity when I go to do that (specifically, I start reading).

There is apparently research which suggests that the normal time for defecation, from start to finish, is 12 seconds across pretty much the entire animal kingdom.

[jbnv]

I don't know if this counts, but the first possible example that occurs to me are the I-12 westbound guides that direct you to "I-10 WEST Baton Rouge" all the way up to the western terminus of I-12, when you're already in Baton Rouge. In fact, by the time you reach the terminus, you've already been in Baton Rouge for several minutes.

It's not helpful because you're approaching the Baton Rouge Expressway, three lanes of fast-moving traffic where you will have to figure out in short order that if you are going to Lafayette, you need to be in the left lane, and if you are going downtown, to the airport or to Natchez you need to be in the right lane. However, there's no indication of this rather vital fact until about two miles before the I-110 split. (Furthermore, if you're going downtown, you'll have to pick from one of several leftward exists shortly past the 10-110 split.)

Now, let's say you are coming in from the east and going to downtown Baton Rouge. You're looking for a "downtown" indicator. You get to the I-12 terminus.

"I'm going downtown--why does it say I-10 west goes to Baton Rouge? Aren't I already in Baton Rouge? Well, I'm not going to New Orleans, so west I go."

"OK, now we're going to---Lafayette? No, I need to go downtown, which of these lanes goes downtown?" (You probably know that you need I-110, and that I-110 will probably split off on the right, but there's no indication whether you can sit in lane 2 to get downtown, or whether you have to move to lane 3. Worse, lane 5 peels off at College Dr. and lane 4 peels off at Acadian Thruway, facts that make your life at this point much more complicated because you're dodging people weaving from I-10 westbound to College and Acadian and people from I-12 westbound weaving to the leftmost lanes to hightail it out of town.)

Getting back to the original point, once you enter Baton Rouge, the guide signs should say "Downtown / Lafayette" instead of "Baton Rouge." As you approach the terminus, the guide signs should direct Lafayette-bound traffic to lanes 1 and 2 and downtown-bound traffic to lanes 2 and 3. And there's no reason they can't indicate lanes 4 and 5 are exit only all the way back at the terminus. You're not going to know that until you get past the terminus and suddenly find the left lanes packed solid.

(Wow, that ended up longer than I expected.)

[Michael]

While looking around on Google Maps earlier, I thought of this thread when I saw a sign that I drove by recently in North Syracuse that's both right and wrong (I may or may not live in Alanland).  This sign and the sign closer to the intersection are technically correct, but the ramp they're directing you to is for NY 481.  You have to go southbound on NY 481 for a half mile to get to I-481.

After turning onto Bear Rd, all three signs (1, 2, 3) don't have "TO" banners on them, so they're technically wrong.

I only noticed the first sign in the bunch since I don't need them because I know the area, and I was paying attention to my driving.

[roadman]

This would definitely count as misleading.

Signs on I-95 suggesting services are available on VA 150 (Exit 67 SB, Exit 67B NB). The problem is VA 150 is a full freeway in this area (the only non-freeway section is nowhere near here and even so there's no services along that stretch either). To reach these services, one has to exit I-95 onto VA 150, then exit VA 150 onto US 1/301 where they're actually located. These signs shouldn't be here at all.

Images from GSV:



SM-S820L

What is the total distance from the signs to the services, and how difficult is it to get back onto I-95 from those services?  Unless Virginia's sign policy has a specific prohibition on service signing for freeway to freeway connections, it's possible these signs satisfy the "convenient re-entry to the highway in the same direction" provision of the MUTCD.

[plain]

This would definitely count as misleading.

Signs on I-95 suggesting services are available on VA 150 (Exit 67 SB, Exit 67B NB). The problem is VA 150 is a full freeway in this area (the only non-freeway section is nowhere near here and even so there's no services along that stretch either). To reach these services, one has to exit I-95 onto VA 150, then exit VA 150 onto US 1/301 where they're actually located. These signs shouldn't be here at all.

Images from GSV:



SM-S820L

What is the total distance from the signs to the services, and how difficult is it to get back onto I-95 from those services?  Unless Virginia's sign policy has a specific prohibition on service signing for freeway to freeway connections, it's possible these signs satisfy the "convenient re-entry to the highway in the same direction" provision of the MUTCD.

The Raceway gas station is the only one in the immediate vicinity of the VA 150/US 1 interchange. The other two are about a mile past that, and the restaurants are about a mile past those.

When VA 150 was widened to 6 lanes in that area, I was working for the contractors VDOT used to do it (happened at the same time VA 895 and its bridge was being constructed). There were quite a few people who stopped along the construction zone (smdh!!!) to ask us where these places were at. The most damning incident was this old couple who made it all the way to the SR 637 exit before they pulled up while I was jackhammering and asked me where the Hardees was. I don't understand why these signs are still in place. Had no idea this was allowed.

[roadman]

The Raceway gas station is the only one in the immediate vicinity of the VA 150/US 1 interchange. The other two are about a mile past that, and the restaurants are about a mile past those. 

Thanks for the info.  So, what is the approximate distance a driver on I-95 must travel between the signs and the services to access them, and how difficult would it be for them to return to I-95 to continue in the same direction?  Assuming there are no "freeway to freeway connection" restrictions in VA's sign policy, those should be the key factors in determining whether or not having signs on I-95 at this location is reasonable and appropriate.

[roadman65]

If I am not mistaken gas stations should be within a mile, but food and lodging can be further.  Campgrounds can be as far away as 10 miles.

However, in Florida on I-4 before the I-4 Ultimate removed the Exit 80 sign for gas, the Wawa which is more than 2 miles away got a mention on it.  So maybe the rules have changed.