Northway Stub - Plans to Utilize?

[webny99]

I was considering posting this in fictional, but I figured we'd probably end up talking more about the history than the future.

So, is it just me, or would it not be an obvious solution to the entire Thruway Exit 24 situation near Albany, to just tie the Northway stub south of Exit 1 directly into the Thruway? After several searches, I couldn't find any proposals or discussion of such on the forum, but when looking at the macro view, it just pops out as a surprisingly simple and all-encompassing solution. This would just be two new ramps, one from the NB Thruway to the stub, and one from the stub to the SB Thruway.

A few questions:
(1)Why wasn't this interchange built to connect the stub and the Thruway in the first place?
(2)Has there ever been serious plans/consideration given to utilize this?
(3)ROW does not appear to be an issue, but once the Thruway goes AET, is there a higher chance of this connection being built?

[kalvado]

heard quite a few rumors. Tolls are one obvious problem, Western aka US20 overpass may be another expensive item.

[mrsman]

I believe the spread of AET will eventually (when funding is allocated) lead to more interchanges on the Thruway and simplification of some of the ramps, where it is busy.  While I do not expect every double trumpet to be replaced, the interchanges around Albany between the thruway and interstate highways do merit some work given the volume of traffic exiting.  I do expect to eventually see a direct connection there and some elimination of some of the other ramps at Thruway/90 and 87/90.

[kalvado]

I believe the spread of AET will eventually (when funding is allocated) lead to more interchanges on the Thruway and simplification of some of the ramps, where it is busy.  While I do not expect every double trumpet to be replaced, the interchanges around Albany between the thruway and interstate highways do merit some work given the volume of traffic exiting.  I do expect to eventually see a direct connection there and some elimination of some of the other ramps at Thruway/90 and 87/90.

just remember that Thruway just burnt a fortune on a new bridge, and new non-essential construction would be on a backburner for a while.

[Ben114]

Any project here would definitely smooth out the corners if coming from or going to the I-87 portion of the Thruway.

[froggie]

(2)Has there ever been serious plans/consideration given to utilize this?

Yes, two proposals actually.  The long-ago 1960s plans proposed a freeway adjacent to and paralleling the Thruway to the north, connecting the Northway stub to the spur (not the toll booth) at the south end of 787.  Val has a map of this somewhere on her webpage.

The second "proposal" was moreso an alternative that was under study.  About 15 years ago, NYSTA and NYSDOT conducted a study on Thruway tolling in the Capital District and how to improve operations at Exits 23, 24, and 25.  The main options studied involved adding 2 or more mainline barriers (one south of 23, the other west of 25A) and removing or revising ramp/interchange tolls in the process.  Amongst some of these alternatives were options adding a direct ramp from the north/westbound Thruway to the northbound Northway (southbound would have either been omitted or built elsewhere and not on the Northway spur).  Depending on the mainline barrier option chosen, this ramp would have either been "free" or would have been EZPass only.

As for whether or not to post this in fictional, it was discussed there 4 years ago.

[vdeane]

I always wonder about ROW constraints with this.  The area around the stub is pretty developed.  Plus it's not just the flyover ramps to the Thruway - there needs to be some kind of access to US 20 as well.

Yes, two proposals actually.  The long-ago 1960s plans proposed a freeway adjacent to and paralleling the Thruway to the north, connecting the Northway stub to the spur (not the toll booth) at the south end of 787.  Val has a map of this somewhere on her webpage.

http://nysroads.com/planned.php (bottom of the page)

[WNYroadgeek]

Plus it's not just the flyover ramps to the Thruway - there needs to be some kind of access to US 20 as well.

You could make an argument that there should be access to Crossgates Mall, too (though I suppose using US 20 for that would suffice).

[kalvado]

Plus it's not just the flyover ramps to the Thruway - there needs to be some kind of access to US 20 as well.

You could make an argument that there should be access to Crossgates Mall, too (though I suppose using US 20 for that would suffice).

There is some insane amount of ramps over first 2 miles of northbound Northway:
-2 entrances from Western (E,W)
-entrance from Crossgates
-exit to free I-90 E
-Exit to Thruway (will have to stay as I-90W)
-Merge from Thruway
-Merge from free I-90
-2 pairs of exit 2 ramps
for a total of 11 ramps.

Even with a direct connection between I-87 Thruway to I-87 Northway you cannot remove any of those. Adding more... Left exits are not kosher, so I cannot see that happen - although left exit to Crossgates/Western/Washington may be a good idea.

[vdeane]

Heck, even maintaining existing might be hard in this scenario.  There isn't room for that loop ramp, for example.

Probably can get away without adding NB access to/from Crossgates.  Most people heading out from the mall head north or east rather than west or south.  Access via US 20 would probably work for traffic heading up the Thruway.  Trouble is, even adding ramps for US 20 access to/from the south would hit ROW issues.

[RobbieL2415]

What if you moved the northbound Thruway traffic to the Northway and then have it bend west to the current toll barrier?  That would eliminate the need for the crossover at exit 24 as you could instead have a loop ramp from 87S to the Northway and I-90.  The remaining Northway stub past the split would have four lanes north instead of two up to the exit 1 complex.

[Alps]

What if you moved the northbound Thruway traffic to the Northway and then have it bend west to the current toll barrier?  That would eliminate the need for the crossover at exit 24 as you could instead have a loop ramp from 87S to the Northway and I-90.  The remaining Northway stub past the split would have four lanes north instead of two up to the exit 1 complex.

I can't even begin to envision what you mean, but just connecting 87 to the Northway would eliminate a "crossover".

[RobbieL2415]

What if you moved the northbound Thruway traffic to the Northway and then have it bend west to the current toll barrier?  That would eliminate the need for the crossover at exit 24 as you could instead have a loop ramp from 87S to the Northway and I-90.  The remaining Northway stub past the split would have four lanes north instead of two up to the exit 1 complex.

I can't even begin to envision what you mean, but just connecting 87 to the Northway would eliminate a "crossover".

Here's a very rough sketch of what I mean. Red line is Northway northbound only. Blue line on the right is Thruway northbound. Current Thruway carriageway becomes southbound only.  Blue line on the left is for Thruway southbound to Northway/I-90E.
http://imgur.com/gallery/oMd6tKn

[Alps]

Now I understand. You're referring to weaving along I-90 mainline between the Thruway and Northway. But your concept would just introduce weaving along I-87 NB... somewhere along the line, something's gotta give.

[Rothman]

Crossgates developer also helped fund the ramps to and from the mall.  Wonder if that arrangement would cause issues with any proposal to utilize the stub.

Shoot, I'd be happy with a better lane arrangement and signage coming SB on the Northway into Exit 1.

[kalvado]

Crossgates developer also helped fund the ramps to and from the mall.  Wonder if that arrangement would cause issues with any proposal to utilize the stub.

Shoot, I'd be happy with a better lane arrangement and signage coming SB on the Northway into Exit 1.

WOW!!!
I had an impression everyone at NYSDOT is using a helicopter, and that is why simple problems never get any attention...