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Author Topic: Florida  (Read 1245870 times)

realjd

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Re: Florida
« Reply #700 on: October 05, 2011, 12:15:56 PM »

I've always wondered how Google got permission to do StreetView on KSC property. Just like on a military base, you'd think they wouldn't allow it due to security concerns or something.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #701 on: October 05, 2011, 12:45:02 PM »

Have you written them to ask? Those are hideous!

They are signs indigenous to Escambia, Santa Rosa and Okaloosa Counties. I don't know why District 3 allows them, but they're horrible.

https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/florida090/us-090_eb_app_fl-742.jpg


Okay, thanks. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think I've seen that awkward design in a few places in the South Florida/Treasure Coast.

I've never liked the wider "standalone" state road shields, except on BGS. But they seem to be the de facto standard for almost all 3-digit State Roads in the past decade.

I'm getting nostalgic for the square 1982-spec shields, since Keys Shields are nearly all gone in South Florida.


SR 814 East by formulanone at Flickr
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Re: Florida
« Reply #702 on: October 05, 2011, 12:48:21 PM »

the "1982 spec" shield has been around as early as April 1977.  there is, indeed, a very brief overlap of that style of shield with "S-" prefix for state secondary routes, which were downgraded in October 1977.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #703 on: October 05, 2011, 01:52:18 PM »

Gene asked me to pass along this question:
Quote
Did they always have the do not stop blinking amber lights at the disney entrance arches?

realjd

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Re: Florida
« Reply #704 on: October 05, 2011, 02:47:55 PM »

Gene asked me to pass along this question:
Quote
Did they always have the do not stop blinking amber lights at the disney entrance arches?

I had to go look at Google StreetView to see what he was talking about. I don't recall seeing those before. Not to say they weren't there necessarily, but I don't remember them.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #705 on: October 05, 2011, 03:34:55 PM »

As a cast member, I've driven onto property many more times than I can count. The flashing lights were installed at the SR 536 / Epcot Center Dr entrance either in 2009 or 2010 if I remember correctly. There were signs in the past (with no flashing lights) that said No Stopping - Strictly Enforced as well as Emergency Stopping Only, and those are still there. The flashing lights were just added on top of them.

The entrance from Western Way (just off of SR 429 Exit 8 ) had flashing lights added too around this same timeframe. They had the signs as well.

I believe signs also exist at the World Dr and Osceola Pkwy entrances, but I'm not too sure about the flashing lights.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:37:51 PM by Ace10 »
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J N Winkler

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Re: Florida
« Reply #706 on: October 05, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »

I've always wondered how Google got permission to do StreetView on KSC property. Just like on a military base, you'd think they wouldn't allow it due to security concerns or something.

It was probably arranged through the public affairs office, which probably also detailed someone to ride in the camera car.  When I worked at Goddard Space Flight Center it was perfectly possible for members of the general public to take tours but casual visitors had to enter at the main entrance on Greenbelt Road (not through, e.g., the employees-only entrance which has its own exit off the Baltimore-Washington Parkway) and wait for someone to show them around.  At other entrances there is a badge check and everyone in a car seeking entry has to show a badge.

Military bases work a little differently.  In my experience they control by the vehicle, not the occupant.  If you are regularly on a military base (e.g. as a soldier, a civilian DOD employee, or a retiree with commissary privileges), then you can get a windshield sticker which allows you to drive on the base.  The basic sticker has the DOD seal and a six-character code (three letters and three digits).  Officers (both serving and retired) also get a blue sticker with their rank insignia in white--eagle for a full colonel, star for a brigadier general, and so on.

For civilians without a DOD connection entry is not so straightforward, but bases in general are not as buttoned-down now as they were in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.  When I visited Fort Huachuca in Arizona about eighteen months ago, I was in a borrowed car and had to stop just outside the base entrance to obtain a vehicle permit.  To do this I had to show both my driver's license and the vehicle registration.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #707 on: October 05, 2011, 05:27:51 PM »

I believe signs also exist at the World Dr and Osceola Pkwy entrances, but I'm not too sure about the flashing lights.

Yes, the flashing lights are also there. We visit Disney World roughly 3-4 times a year, and we usually take the Oceola Parkway, and World Drive on occassion. In all my visits over the years, only once have I seen a family get out of their car and pose by the entrance sign. My guess is that Disney's crack legal squad suggested it, since its their roads on thier property.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #708 on: October 05, 2011, 05:40:32 PM »

Yes, the flashing lights are also there. We visit Disney World roughly 3-4 times a year, and we usually take the Oceola Parkway, and World Drive on occassion. In all my visits over the years, only once have I seen a family get out of their car and pose by the entrance sign. My guess is that Disney's crack legal squad suggested it, since its their roads on thier property.

As far as the stopping restrictions, it's a tough call. All entrances are pretty much expressway-grade, if not freeway-grade, but I doubt there's any real legislation on the books for limiting who can stop on the shoulder and under what circumstances. I believe the roads are technically owned by the Reedy Creek Improvement District, a local government agency, and not actually privately-owned by Disney. But of course, especially working there, Disney tries to dish out lots of rules that have little to no legal backing, so I doubt they'd actually press charges if one were to stop near the welcome sign.
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realjd

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Re: Florida
« Reply #709 on: October 05, 2011, 06:29:01 PM »

Yes, the flashing lights are also there. We visit Disney World roughly 3-4 times a year, and we usually take the Oceola Parkway, and World Drive on occassion. In all my visits over the years, only once have I seen a family get out of their car and pose by the entrance sign. My guess is that Disney's crack legal squad suggested it, since its their roads on thier property.

As far as the stopping restrictions, it's a tough call. All entrances are pretty much expressway-grade, if not freeway-grade, but I doubt there's any real legislation on the books for limiting who can stop on the shoulder and under what circumstances. I believe the roads are technically owned by the Reedy Creek Improvement District, a local government agency, and not actually privately-owned by Disney. But of course, especially working there, Disney tries to dish out lots of rules that have little to no legal backing, so I doubt they'd actually press charges if one were to stop near the welcome sign.

How's the speed enforcement there? Ive heard rumors of FHP clocking folks on the wide, too-slow Disney freeways, but I can't imagine Disney would be very happy about that.
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NE2

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Re: Florida
« Reply #710 on: October 05, 2011, 06:32:56 PM »

As far as the stopping restrictions, it's a tough call. All entrances are pretty much expressway-grade, if not freeway-grade, but I doubt there's any real legislation on the books for limiting who can stop on the shoulder and under what circumstances. I believe the roads are technically owned by the Reedy Creek Improvement District, a local government agency, and not actually privately-owned by Disney. But of course, especially working there, Disney tries to dish out lots of rules that have little to no legal backing, so I doubt they'd actually press charges if one were to stop near the welcome sign.
Local government agencies post signs prohibiting stopping/standing/parking all the time. Why would RCID be any different?

How's the speed enforcement there? Ive heard rumors of FHP clocking folks on the wide, too-slow Disney freeways, but I can't imagine Disney would be very happy about that.
If Disney had a problem with it they would raise the speed limits.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #711 on: October 05, 2011, 06:35:34 PM »

I've always wondered how Google got permission to do StreetView on KSC property. Just like on a military base, you'd think they wouldn't allow it due to security concerns or something.

It was probably arranged through the public affairs office, which probably also detailed someone to ride in the camera car.  When I worked at Goddard Space Flight Center it was perfectly possible for members of the general public to take tours but casual visitors had to enter at the main entrance on Greenbelt Road (not through, e.g., the employees-only entrance which has its own exit off the Baltimore-Washington Parkway) and wait for someone to show them around.  At other entrances there is a badge check and everyone in a car seeking entry has to show a badge.

Military bases work a little differently.  In my experience they control by the vehicle, not the occupant.  If you are regularly on a military base (e.g. as a soldier, a civilian DOD employee, or a retiree with commissary privileges), then you can get a windshield sticker which allows you to drive on the base.  The basic sticker has the DOD seal and a six-character code (three letters and three digits).  Officers (both serving and retired) also get a blue sticker with their rank insignia in white--eagle for a full colonel, star for a brigadier general, and so on.

For civilians without a DOD connection entry is not so straightforward, but bases in general are not as buttoned-down now as they were in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.  When I visited Fort Huachuca in Arizona about eighteen months ago, I was in a borrowed car and had to stop just outside the base entrance to obtain a vehicle permit.  To do this I had to show both my driver's license and the vehicle registration.

Military bases have been doing 100% ID checks since 9/11. The Air Force doesn't even issue vehicle passes anymore; they issue guest passes per person. In my experience as a civilian, getting onto a normal Army post is still straightforward with just a DL needed, plus a vehicle guest pass depending on the time of day and the post (but often not required). It's very different than it used to be.

I don't think KSC lets people in without a cape badge anymore, even escorted, but I'm not completely positive on that.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #712 on: October 05, 2011, 06:42:59 PM »

How's the speed enforcement there? Ive heard rumors of FHP clocking folks on the wide, too-slow Disney freeways, but I can't imagine Disney would be very happy about that.

I've seen OSCO (Orange County Sheriff's Office, but never FHP) out there on occasion, almost always at the SR 536 / Epcot Center Dr entrance. I've seen maybe one or two cars pulled over from all the times I've driven onto property. Max speed limit on Disney property is 50, but the speed is higher once on SR 536 (55 mph there). I frequently go 60 and even as fast as 70, but I do realize why the speed limit is lower: almost no one knows where they're going! And Disney isn't the best at signing destinations or directions.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #713 on: October 05, 2011, 06:44:34 PM »

Local government agencies post signs prohibiting stopping/standing/parking all the time. Why would RCID be any different?

Disney / RCID has the right to post whatever sign it wants (within reason), but since Disney nor RCID has a police force, I don't know how willing OSCO would be to cite people for stopping when a sign specifically told them not to.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #714 on: October 05, 2011, 06:50:40 PM »

The Google van was turned around at the NASA Parkway gate but, for whatever reason, allowed to continue through on Kennedy Parkway. It seems that they went to the end of Saturn Causeway (one would assume they had an area permit to pass here) and turned around (based on photos from both sides of the centerline) but perhaps only southbound on what Google calls Crawlerway.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #715 on: October 05, 2011, 06:51:52 PM »

Disney / RCID has the right to post whatever sign it wants (within reason), but since Disney nor RCID has a police force, I don't know how willing OSCO would be to cite people for stopping when a sign specifically told them not to.
Presumably the contract with OCSO covers this.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Florida
« Reply #716 on: October 05, 2011, 06:55:55 PM »

Military bases have been doing 100% ID checks since 9/11. The Air Force doesn't even issue vehicle passes anymore; they issue guest passes per person.

At least they let civilians onto air bases now--when I tried to visit the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs in 2003, I was politely refused entry.

P.S.  I just checked and there is no StreetView coverage at all within the GSFC campus--coverage continues all the way up to the guard booths and then stops.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #717 on: October 05, 2011, 07:57:45 PM »

Presumably the contract with OCSO covers this.

Probably. I keep meaning to visit the RCID building on Hotel Plaza Blvd to see where RCID's property lines end and Disney's begin. It would be good to know who has actual jurisdiction over the roads.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #718 on: October 05, 2011, 08:36:20 PM »

Probably. I keep meaning to visit the RCID building on Hotel Plaza Blvd to see where RCID's property lines end and Disney's begin. It would be good to know who has actual jurisdiction over the roads.
Don't bother; they'll charge you for the time it takes to do the research. http://paarcgis.ocpafl.org/Webmap1/default.aspx (Orange) and http://ira.property-appraiser.org/PropertySearch/ (Osceola) do a good job of showing who owns what.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #719 on: October 05, 2011, 08:43:44 PM »

Don't bother; they'll charge you for the time it takes to do the research. http://paarcgis.ocpafl.org/Webmap1/default.aspx (Orange) and http://ira.property-appraiser.org/PropertySearch/ (Osceola) do a good job of showing who owns what.

Hmmmm, interesting. Thanks for the links. I found a map of the lines somewhere but I have no idea where to find it now.

Quick off-topic question: Do Departments of Transportation normally charge for records requests like these? Like, for instance, to find maps of old alignments of routes. I see others mention that they go to DOTs to do the research, and I'm curious if the DOT charges for access to that information or not.
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Ace10

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Re: Florida
« Reply #720 on: October 05, 2011, 08:47:50 PM »

At least they let civilians onto air bases now--when I tried to visit the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs in 2003, I was politely refused entry.

Most of my experience has been with Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS. I'd always stop and have my ID checked (I am (was) a military dependent). My vehicle never had a sticker, but I do remember my parents' vehicles having stickers, though they did fall out of use.

The only other AFB I visited was Patrick near Cocoa Beach. Same procedure - though I was the passenger, and the driver had no military affiliation. Technically we were both civilians, even though I had a dependent military ID card.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #721 on: October 05, 2011, 09:02:15 PM »

On KSC you don't get past the Visitor Center on the NASA Causeway without a badge.  If you need to get on you have to go to the Badging Center and get a temporary badge-and you still have to be vouched for by someone there.

When I worked there, if you forgot your badge you had to go to the Badging Center and get a temporary badge that was good for one day, technically known as a 'machine pass"...on my job we would refer to you as a "robot" if you showed up with one...
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Re: Florida
« Reply #722 on: October 05, 2011, 09:13:35 PM »

Hmmmm, interesting. Thanks for the links. I found a map of the lines somewhere but I have no idea where to find it now.
http://www.rcid.org/PDF/political%20jurisdiction%20map.base05_11.pdf also shows who owns what.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #723 on: October 05, 2011, 09:30:52 PM »

Quick off-topic question: Do Departments of Transportation normally charge for records requests like these? Like, for instance, to find maps of old alignments of routes. I see others mention that they go to DOTs to do the research, and I'm curious if the DOT charges for access to that information or not.

It varies from DOT to DOT.  Typically the access a member of the general public gets is either a matter of courtesy or is granted under the state open-records statute.  Most open-records laws allow, but do not require, cost recovery, and this gives DOTs considerable latitude in developing their own policies with regard to charging for access to records.  In my experience "Don't push your luck and you probably won't have to pay" holds true for a good many DOTs, but there are a few which are positively nasty--"We will need to look up these records, and you're going to have to pay us $X per hour," then, "If you want to look at these records, you're going to have to pay $Y an hour for a member of staff to supervise you," etc.

This said, a few general observations can be made:

*  If you want to inspect documents in person and they are relatively easy to retrieve, normally a charge won't be made.  It is courteous to ask for permission before taking digital camera copies of originals (unless posted policies say explicitly that it is allowed); I would be very surprised if it were ever refused.

*  If you want copies, you can expect to pay for paper copies at whatever the DOT considers to be its standard reprographic rates (this is true for, e.g., copies of old county maps made from Mylar originals, which I got at NMDOT a number of years ago).

*  If the document you want has been scanned or otherwise exists electronically, you may have to pay for a CD or DVD copy if the DOT has to supply the optical media.  You may be able to avoid this if you supply the media yourself, or if it is possible to transfer the data online (e.g. through FTP upload, an in-house file-hosting service, or even email if the document is small enough).

In terms of supports, at a DOT you can expect to find records on ordinary paper, drafting linen, various types of blueprint/whiteprint paper, Mylar, and microfilm (reels, sheets, aperture cards, etc.).  Some (almost certainly not all) of these will have been scanned at one time or another, producing images in varying formats, with TIFF and JPEG (in that order) being the most popular, and PDF widely and increasingly used as a container format.  XPS is also starting to appear but has not yet broken through.  For records "born digital" (created in a CAD or office productivity program), source files and PDF plots or prints may also be available.

The basic procedure is to identify the type of record you are interested in and then talk with the custodian for those records to determine what is feasible in terms of copying, scanning, inspection in person, etc.  If the records you are interested in are especially old, like route maps of state highways designated in the 1920's, you will also need to look at the DOT's and the state government's records retention policy.  Most states require that records over a certain age which are no longer in current use be turned over to a state archives agency, where they are kept and made available to researchers in a publicly accessible reading room.  DOTs tend to guard their construction plans jealously since in principle a 1910's bridge plan can be pulled out for a rehab job in 2011, but most of the planning and policy documentation tends to be shipped off to archives.

Some state DOTs are starting to make certain records available online through document management systems with Web interfaces.  MnDOT does this with survey maps and construction plans, and GDOT does it with construction plans.  This is not something that has broken through yet, however, partly because the systems that have so far been tried have not scaled very well.  Other state DOTs have "here today, gone tomorrow" models of document provision--for example, Alabama DOT puts highway construction plans online up until the date of letting, after which they vanish and then you pay $3/sheet if you want extracts of anything.  Personally I try to do what I can online, generally by mining the document management systems I have access to and also making damn sure I have my own private archive of the fly-by-night material.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #724 on: October 05, 2011, 10:14:10 PM »

but there are a few which are positively nasty--"We will need to look up these records, and you're going to have to pay us $X per hour," then, "If you want to look at these records, you're going to have to pay $Y an hour for a member of staff to supervise you," etc.
Yep - this is what RCID told me when I wanted to get copies of their ordinances.
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