NFL in Austin, TX

[Life in Paradise]

NBA Sacramento and NHL Los Angeles Kings

Interestingly, the NBA Kings were originally the Rochester Royals who, when they moved to Kansas City, changed to the Kings specifically to avoid confusion with the MLB Royals.

You missed one destination.  The Royals went from Rochester to Cincinnati from 1957-1972 when they were the Cincinnati Royals and then went to Kansas City.

[DTComposer]

NBA Sacramento and NHL Los Angeles Kings

Interestingly, the NBA Kings were originally the Rochester Royals who, when they moved to Kansas City, changed to the Kings specifically to avoid confusion with the MLB Royals.

You missed one destination.  The Royals went from Rochester to Cincinnati from 1957-1972 when they were the Cincinnati Royals and then went to Kansas City.

I was aware of that, but left it out (as well as the Kansas City-Omaha experiment) for brevity and clarity.

[ilpt4u]

A side project:  How many mascots are shared by teams of different sports in the big four North American sports, and of them, which ones are not named for the other.  IE: The baseball and football versions of the Giants are named alike intentionally.

NFL Carolina and NHL Florida Panthers
NHL Ottawa and MLB (moved and renamed) Washington Senators
MLB Texas and NHL New York Rangers
NHL Edmonton and NFL (moved and renamed) Houston Oilers
NBA Sacramento and NHL Los Angeles Kings

None of these have one named for the other as far as I know.

One example of a team named for another, though the name not being exactly the same: When the NFL Decatur Staleys relocated to Chicago, the were named the Bears as an homage to the MLB Cubs, whose stadium they used for 50 years.

Another that have the same team name, completely and currently:

NFL NY and NHL Winnipeg Jets

[ethanhopkin14]

To get back on topic, everyone that is not sure of moving from 32 teams to 40 teams because there is an odd man out city to expand to, both Chicago and New York could easily handle a second or third team respectively.  It's kinda the AFL model.  Eight teams, most in non NFL markets and a few in NFL markets....the big markets.

Anyway, the way I see a realistic London franchise and a realistic eight team expansion (again, both seem out there, but if it could get done, this is the most plausible), would be:

1) It would be in waves.  Four teams one year, and four teams 4-6 years later. 

2) With the current format of 4 divisions per conference, four teams per division, you would have to start with a Europe Division.  For this example it would be in the AFC, so AFC Europe.  London, Madrid (NFL is also big in Spain), Berlin, and the last is tricky.  Either it be Munich to capitalize on Germany's love of American Football or another London team.  Logistically this one would work easiest.  6 of the 16 (17) games would be in the same time zone (or +1).  Eight home games plus three road games in division makes 11 games played in either 0 or +1 time zone.  The other 5 (6) games will be games in the US.  Three game road trip one time with a practice facility owned by each of the four teams state side so they can stay in the US for that trip and another 2 game trip and it's done. 

3) The second wave would be North American cities that need NFL franchises.  St Louis, San Diego, Toronto and San Antonio/Austin.  This would be in the NFC.  They can be added one to each of the existing divisions, or they could create a new NFC Central.

[Bobby5280]

With the current format of 4 divisions per conference, four teams per division, you would have to start with a Europe Division.  For this example it would be in the AFC, so AFC Europe.  London, Madrid (NFL is also big in Spain), Berlin, and the last is tricky.  Either it be Munich to capitalize on Germany's love of American Football or another London team.

Munich is a pretty big city, big enough even to support an NFL class football team, but I don't think it's a big enough market to deserve one of only four European NFL teams. That's why earlier in the thread I suggested London, Berlin, Madrid and Paris. That's four teams in four different major European countries.

The Paris metro dwarfs Munich in terms of population. Out of European cities Paris' metro population of 12 million is second only to London's 14 million. London and Paris have a historic rivalry, yet are linked directly via high speed rail. Barcelona's metro population is slightly larger than that of Berlin, but Germany has the largest population in Western Europe (over 80 million). And I don't like putting 2 European NFL teams in the same country when other countries (such as Italy with Rome and Milan) wouldn't get any teams in either scenario.

Back in North America and the four other teams to bring the total up to 40, San Antonio-Austin has to be up front for consideration. That market was a finalist to get the Raiders. I'd rather see markets like San Diego and St Louis get new teams than see New York get a freaking third team or Chicago get a second one. Orlando and Portland have metros of roughly 2.5 million or more people and rank in the top 25 biggest MSAs in the US. The question is which four markets to choose. At the very least I think a qualifier for the site should require at least 2 million or more in metro population.

Putting NFL teams in Canada would seem like a decent idea if Canada didn't already have its own pro football league. Toronto and Vancouver are both giant sized, cosmopolitan cities. But with the CFL there already that raises a big question whether there is enough of a market for the NFL to compete with the CFL in those cities.

[1995hoo]

Regarding Bobby5280's final comment, I wonder whether the NFL owners view Mexico City as a more viable location than Toronto, both because of the CFL and political considerations related thereto as well as because of stadium size. The latter is even more true now that the SkyDome has been locked in the baseball configuration. BMO Field is too small for an NFL franchise, and the SkyDome would have been the smallest stadium in the league. On the other hand, Azteca is arguably too big.

Regarding European cities, Amsterdam was one of the longer-term cities in the old World League/NFL Europe.

[ethanhopkin14]

Putting NFL teams in Canada would seem like a decent idea if Canada didn't already have its own pro football league. Toronto and Vancouver are both giant sized, cosmopolitan cities. But with the CFL there already that raises a big question whether there is enough of a market for the NFL to compete with the CFL in those cities.

I would agree with you, except, even people in Canada think the CFL is a joke.  There are lots of people in Toronto particular, that only watch American college and NFL football.  I was in Toronto in October and went to a sports bar to watch the Texas/OU game on every TV in the joint, not Canadian college teams.  That night I went to the Argonauts game that night and even the people there didn't care about the game.

I know the NFL and CFL have a tight relationship and there are TV revenue deals between the leagues, and that might be the only thing that can stop the NFL from expanding there, but, the CFL doesn't have the pull the NFL does.  We know who will win that brawl.  I honestly thing Toronto is a market the NFL is very desperate to have. 

[Alps]

With the current format of 4 divisions per conference, four teams per division, you would have to start with a Europe Division.  For this example it would be in the AFC, so AFC Europe.  London, Madrid (NFL is also big in Spain), Berlin, and the last is tricky.  Either it be Munich to capitalize on Germany's love of American Football or another London team.

Munich is a pretty big city, big enough even to support an NFL class football team, but I don't think it's a big enough market to deserve one of only four European NFL teams. That's why earlier in the thread I suggested London, Berlin, Madrid and Paris. That's four teams in four different major European countries.

The Paris metro dwarfs Munich in terms of population. Out of European cities Paris' metro population of 12 million is second only to London's 14 million. London and Paris have a historic rivalry, yet are linked directly via high speed rail. Barcelona's metro population is slightly larger than that of Berlin, but Germany has the largest population in Western Europe (over 80 million). And I don't like putting 2 European NFL teams in the same country when other countries (such as Italy with Rome and Milan) wouldn't get any teams in either scenario.

As OT as this is, I don't see Paris supporting American football, but I can definitely see it in Munich.

[1995hoo]

With the current format of 4 divisions per conference, four teams per division, you would have to start with a Europe Division.  For this example it would be in the AFC, so AFC Europe.  London, Madrid (NFL is also big in Spain), Berlin, and the last is tricky.  Either it be Munich to capitalize on Germany's love of American Football or another London team.

Munich is a pretty big city, big enough even to support an NFL class football team, but I don't think it's a big enough market to deserve one of only four European NFL teams. That's why earlier in the thread I suggested London, Berlin, Madrid and Paris. That's four teams in four different major European countries.

The Paris metro dwarfs Munich in terms of population. Out of European cities Paris' metro population of 12 million is second only to London's 14 million. London and Paris have a historic rivalry, yet are linked directly via high speed rail. Barcelona's metro population is slightly larger than that of Berlin, but Germany has the largest population in Western Europe (over 80 million). And I don't like putting 2 European NFL teams in the same country when other countries (such as Italy with Rome and Milan) wouldn't get any teams in either scenario.

As OT as this is, I don't see Paris supporting American football, but I can definitely see it in Munich.

There was a reason the World League was sometimes called "NFL Deutschland" at the end (five of the six teams were located in Germany).

[ethanhopkin14]

With the current format of 4 divisions per conference, four teams per division, you would have to start with a Europe Division.  For this example it would be in the AFC, so AFC Europe.  London, Madrid (NFL is also big in Spain), Berlin, and the last is tricky.  Either it be Munich to capitalize on Germany's love of American Football or another London team.

Munich is a pretty big city, big enough even to support an NFL class football team, but I don't think it's a big enough market to deserve one of only four European NFL teams. That's why earlier in the thread I suggested London, Berlin, Madrid and Paris. That's four teams in four different major European countries.

The Paris metro dwarfs Munich in terms of population. Out of European cities Paris' metro population of 12 million is second only to London's 14 million. London and Paris have a historic rivalry, yet are linked directly via high speed rail. Barcelona's metro population is slightly larger than that of Berlin, but Germany has the largest population in Western Europe (over 80 million). And I don't like putting 2 European NFL teams in the same country when other countries (such as Italy with Rome and Milan) wouldn't get any teams in either scenario.

As OT as this is, I don't see Paris supporting American football, but I can definitely see it in Munich.

Yes, and this is why I picked Munich over Paris.  Yes Paris is bigger, but Germany has the bigger American Football following. Paris doesn't give a crap about the NFL.

[thspfc]

I don't see anywhere in Europe supporting NFL football. American football is American.

[Bobby5280]

Regarding Bobby5280's final comment, I wonder whether the NFL owners view Mexico City as a more viable location than Toronto, both because of the CFL and political considerations related thereto as well as because of stadium size. The latter is even more true now that the SkyDome has been locked in the baseball configuration. BMO Field is too small for an NFL franchise, and the SkyDome would have been the smallest stadium in the league. On the other hand, Azteca is arguably too big.

In order for any city to attract an NFL team, be it a new expansion team or an existing team relocating, the deal is going to hinge on a brand new stadium being built. The stadium would be the "bait" to lure the team there. There is an expectation of NFL stadiums having a sufficient number of sky-boxes and other amenities. Older existing stadiums can rarely live up to that.

For instance, San Diego lost the Chargers due to the citizens there not wanting to spend a giant amount of taxpayer dollars on a new stadium. St Louis is still paying for the Dome at America's Center, which opened 25 years ago. The stadium was renovated in 2010. But it probably doesn't measure up to current demands of NFL team owners.

I don't think Mexico City is a good fit for an NFL team, even if it is the most populated city in North America. The stadium issue is one thing. Estadio Azteca is 100% a purely soccer stadium. And it's pretty old. The thing opened in 1966. It doesn't have the modern features NFL stadiums are expected to have. Even if a very expensive new NFL stadium could be built there other bad issues remain. Mexico City is at a pretty high altitude, 7350 feet. That's a LOT higher than any other NFL city. Altitude can be enough of a differnce maker with games played in Denver at 5280 feet.

Perhaps the worst problem with putting an NFL team in Mexico City is that Mexico is practically a third world country. Mexico City is not a very safe place to run a NFL team. Players and team personnel would need top notch, trustworthy security 24/7. Corruption and crime is rampant in Mexico. American citizens can travel to certain tourist zones like Cancun relatively safely. It would be a whole other matter for NFL fans to travel to an away game to watch their team play in Mexico City. I wouldn't be farting around in Mexico City unless I was 100% fluent in Mexican Spanish, very street smart and not so white looking. There is crime in cities like Toronto, Vancouver or European cities like London, Paris and Berlin. But those are all "first world" cities with far greater relative levels of safety.

Yes Paris is bigger, but Germany has the bigger American Football following. Paris doesn't give a crap about the NFL.

Not all 12 million people in Paris, or the 50+ million others in France, think the same stereotypical snooty, anti-American way. The San Francisco Bay Area has lots of snotty, very liberal people yet that market supported the 49ers and Raiders for many years. Paris is an international city filled with people from all over the place. I think a team there could work, especially if it was marketed in the right way. A London vs Paris thing would be a natural rivalry.

The only factor that could be an argument for putting two NFL teams in Germany is the United States' direct involvement with Germany via the military bases we still operate there, not to mention all the Americans who travel between Germany and the US frequently. Here in Lawton, with it being an Army town, we have a decent number of German-born people living here. France and the US also have important history, such as the sacred cemeteries at Normandy and Marne (Belleau Wood). The French Revolution was inspired in part by the American Revolution.

I don't see anywhere in Europe supporting NFL football. American football is American.

If you have long-established American NFL teams playing new teams in Europe all in the same league the fans will care. What they don't give a hoot about is a separate European league populated with players who couldn't make it onto a legit NFL team.

[hotdogPi]

Perhaps the worst problem with putting an NFL team in Mexico City is that Mexico is practically a third world country. Mexico City is not a very safe place to run a NFL team. Players and team personnel would need top notch, trustworthy security 24/7. Corruption and crime is rampant in Mexico. American citizens can travel to certain tourist zones like Cancun relatively safely. It would be a whole other matter for NFL fans to travel to an away game to watch their team play in Mexico City. I wouldn't be farting around in Mexico City unless I was 100% fluent in Mexican Spanish, very street smart and not so white looking. There is crime in cities like Toronto, Vancouver or European cities like London, Paris and Berlin. But those are all "first world" cities with far greater relative levels of safety.

Mexico isn't that dangerous except in the US border zone.

[1995hoo]

....

I don't see anywhere in Europe supporting NFL football. American football is American.

If you have long-established American NFL teams playing new teams in Europe all in the same league the fans will care. What they don't give a hoot about is a separate European league populated with players who couldn't make it onto a legit NFL team.

I recall when the World League began its first season, there was an article in the newspaper about it that speculated on how the European teams would draw. As to the London Monarchs, the writer said something along the lines of, "The demand for American football in London is clear, but the question remains how long Londoners will settle for the minor-league version. Probably for at least two seasons." That turned out to be pretty accurate–they played the first two seasons at Wembley and drew quite well, but then after the league suspended operations, they resumed play at White Hart Lane (Spurs' old ground), which was problematic due to the field being too small, and attendance dropped off by more than 50%.

The same writer theorized that the Frankfurt Galaxy would draw reasonably well, due in no small part to the number of American military personnel in Germany, and he was proven right because they were the only franchise to last through every season that league played. The other of the original three European teams were the Barcelona Dragons, and the writer noted that "American football is more foreign in Spain than in England and Germany."

[Bobby5280]

Mexico isn't that dangerous except in the US border zone.

There is a lot more than just the border zones that are dangerous in Mexico. Kidnappings and ransom are a big a business. Organized crime has infiltrated many city governments and police departments. If it was up to me I'd put teams in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and maybe even Calgary before even considering a Mexico team.

I recall when the World League began its first season, there was an article in the newspaper about it that speculated on how the European teams would draw.

The World League still wasn't the same thing as the concept I'm talking about. It was still a secondary, separate league apart from the American NFL teams. There was no star power in it. If you have an international NFL league that combines the established, legit NFL teams from America with perhaps 4 teams in Europe and maybe even a couple Canadian NFL teams it would be a bigger hit. Everyone would know the best football players in the world are playing in THAT league.

[1995hoo]

....

I recall when the World League began its first season, there was an article in the newspaper about it that speculated on how the European teams would draw.

The World League still wasn't the same thing as the concept I'm talking about. It was still a secondary, separate league apart from the American NFL teams. There was no star power in it. If you have an international NFL league that combines the established, legit NFL teams from America with perhaps 4 teams in Europe and maybe even a couple Canadian NFL teams it would be a bigger hit. Everyone would know the best football players in the world are playing in THAT league.

That's more or less the point the writer I cited was trying to make when he referred to how long Londoners would settle for the minor-league version.

[ethanhopkin14]

Yes Paris is bigger, but Germany has the bigger American Football following. Paris doesn't give a crap about the NFL.

Not all 12 million people in Paris, or the 50+ million others in France, think the same stereotypical snooty, anti-American way. The San Francisco Bay Area has lots of snotty, very liberal people yet that market supported the 49ers and Raiders for many years. Paris is an international city filled with people from all over the place. I think a team there could work, especially if it was marketed in the right way. A London vs Paris thing would be a natural rivalry.

I never said anything about snooty or stereotypical French people.  I am the one that has always gone to bat for French people because I have met so many very friendly French people in my travels to France.  In fact, the only time I have seen them unpleasant was not to me, but to an American tour bus filled with high school/college age girls that jumped out, were very loud and obnoxious, screamed "like" and "oh my god" constantly, acted over the top valley girl and complained that Paris wasn't like the US.

All that to say, the NFL just isn't on most French people's radar.  It was rare to get NFL games on the TVs in Paris, save from one Irish bar I found in St. Michelle.  In London, it's very easy to watch an NFL game on TV, and it will be an average bar, not a sports bar.  I could be wrong, its diverse enough, but in my travels it seems Germany cares more about the sport than France. 

[ethanhopkin14]

Mexico isn't that dangerous except in the US border zone.

There is a lot more than just the border zones that are dangerous in Mexico. Kidnappings and ransom are a big a business. Organized crime has infiltrated many city governments and police departments. If it was up to me I'd put teams in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and maybe even Calgary before even considering a Mexico team.

I recall when the World League began its first season, there was an article in the newspaper about it that speculated on how the European teams would draw.

The World League still wasn't the same thing as the concept I'm talking about. It was still a secondary, separate league apart from the American NFL teams. There was no star power in it. If you have an international NFL league that combines the established, legit NFL teams from America with perhaps 4 teams in Europe and maybe even a couple Canadian NFL teams it would be a bigger hit. Everyone would know the best football players in the world are playing in THAT league.

Crime is an issue, yes, but one more important note about Mexico.  There is a huge gap between the upper class and the poverty stricken.  There is no middle class.  You are either filthy rich or dirt poor, and no in between.  The NFL is run on TV contracts and ticket/merchandise/concessions.  With no middle class, who will pay the $20 parking and $150 per ticket?  Who is going to afford cable to pay for the TV contracts, even though that's distributed, the Mexico City team will be dragging behind.  Even a $20 baseball ticket is way more than some Mexicans make in a month. 

[Konza]

Let me throw out that if the Canadian government would allow the NFL to place a team in Canada there would almost certainly have been at least one there by now.

It's kind of like why there is a required minimum Canadian content on Canadian TV and radio.  If the Canadian government relied on the market to protect Canadian culture, there would be a lot less Canadian culture than there now is.  The CFL is part of that.

The European expansion concept is an interesting one to ponder.  You would want the international teams to develop rivalries with each other; you would also want to minimize travel.  In a 40 team league, does that mean 10 divisions of 4, or 8 divisions of 5?  Anything I've read indicates that European teams would also have a US "base"  where they could train between games in North America.  Similarly, you would have to think the league would develop something similar in Europe so a US based team wouldn't have to return home between European games.

I wouldn't sell Mexico City short.  It's the largest city in North America, and if the right people were in charge they could probably make it work.  Again:  think TV markets.  Either São Paulo or Rio might also work as an International NFL city.

[1995hoo]

Recall the Canadian Parliament was set to pass a statute in the 1970s that effectively kept the WFL out of Toronto. The WLAF in 1991 and 1992 wasn't deemed a problem (there was a team in Montreal) because it was a spring league that played 10 games and so didn't compete with the CFL.

[NWI_Irish96]

This is all a really fun exercise, but there isn't the talent available to field 36 competitive teams, let alone 40, and football is becoming less popular at the youth level. Smaller colleges are probably going to start dropping football.

The XFL was working until COVID shut it down. A well-run spring league can do well, and that's what should come back in 2022 using the cities being discussed here.

[ethanhopkin14]

This is all a really fun exercise, but there isn't the talent available to field 36 competitive teams, let alone 40, and football is becoming less popular at the youth level. Smaller colleges are probably going to start dropping football.

The XFL was working until COVID shut it down. A well-run spring league can do well, and that's what should come back in 2022 using the cities being discussed here.

We all know a lesser league has great window dressing that fades very quick.  Would you like to see the London Xs play the Berlin Ys and exclusively those teams, or would you like to see London Xs play the Berlin Ys on Sunday, then next Sunday the London Xs play the New York Giants?

To your point about the talent level, yes I agree.  I think there is a lot of bad football in the NFL anyway.  Does it matter that we have 4 bad teams now and 8 in the future?  Besides, every expansion in every major North American sport has been rebutted with dilution of talent as a con.  Hasn't stopped anyone yet.

[mgk920]

One thing also regarding Canada is that for the longest time, there has been a sort of 'gentleman's agreement' between the NFL and the CFL that the NFL would not infringe on the CFL's 'turf'.  Now, should the CFL implode, I would not object to NFL teams being set up in several larger Canadian cities, such as Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton.  I do note that for a while, the NFL Buffalo Bills related to Toronto much like the Packers did to Milwaukee when they played home games at Milwaukee County Stadium.

As for Mexico, I can see a team in Monterrey, NL before I can see one in Mexico City.

Mike

[NWI_Irish96]

This is all a really fun exercise, but there isn't the talent available to field 36 competitive teams, let alone 40, and football is becoming less popular at the youth level. Smaller colleges are probably going to start dropping football.

The XFL was working until COVID shut it down. A well-run spring league can do well, and that's what should come back in 2022 using the cities being discussed here.

We all know a lesser league has great window dressing that fades very quick.  Would you like to see the London Xs play the Berlin Ys and exclusively those teams, or would you like to see London Xs play the Berlin Ys on Sunday, then next Sunday the London Xs play the New York Giants?

To your point about the talent level, yes I agree.  I think there is a lot of bad football in the NFL anyway.  Does it matter that we have 4 bad teams now and 8 in the future?  Besides, every expansion in every major North American sport has been rebutted with dilution of talent as a con.  Hasn't stopped anyone yet.

You're right, it hasn't stopped anyone yet, as in none of the other leagues who have seen the NFL vacuum up more and more of their fans.

The NFL model is built more on getting you to watch games not involving your favorite team, so quality of play and competitiveness matter more.

[Bobby5280]

Let me throw out that if the Canadian government would allow the NFL to place a team in Canada there would almost certainly have been at least one there by now.

The Canadian government hasn't stood in the way of Major League Baseball, the National Hockey League or the National Basketball Association. All three organizations at least have teams in Toronto. Obviously the NHL has multiple Canadian teams along with a bunch of American ones.

One key reason why the NFL has historically never considered placing a team in Canada is weather and how that conflicts with the NFL season schedule. The CFL starts its seasons up in June and they end in November before the start of winter. And even in November the weather gets bad enough. A Canadian NFL team would have to play in an indoor stadium and even on artificial turf (unlike the retractable fields on which the Arizona Cardinals and Las Vegas Raiders play).

This is all a really fun exercise, but there isn't the talent available to field 36 competitive teams, let alone 40, and football is becoming less popular at the youth level. Smaller colleges are probably going to start dropping football.

Smaller colleges, particularly NCAA Division II schools, are dropping football because of cost. It has very little to do with lack of talent. Here in my city our local college, Cameron University, dropped its football program in 1992. It was a reasonably successful program. The Aggies won a NAIA Division I national title in 1987. But the sheer cost of the program, combined with Title IX regulations, made it financially unsustainable. Plenty of locals gripe about it. The university staff simply resonds "if you guys can find $14 million per year to run a team and corresponding Title IX obligations then we can bring back football." No one has the money for that.

Plenty of D1 schools are having trouble making ends meet with their football programs. Only the most popular D1 schools, such as Alabama, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, etc rake in lots of money with their football programs via tickets, merchandizing and donations.

Other sports, such as soccer, are gaining popularity and stealing kids away from football at the grade school and high school levels. Football is notorious for all the injuries that happen in the sport, both at the high school and college levels. Coaches have been prosecuted for player hospitalizations and deaths via heat exhaustion/stroke.

The NFL would be really pushing it by adding more teams. Other professional sports leagues have comparable numbers of teams to what the NFL has now. There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball, 31 in the National Hockey League, 30 in the NBA and 27 in Major League Soccer. The NFL has 32 teams now. I couldn't see it going to 36 or 40 without a serious realignment of divisions and placing at least 4 teams in Europe. The current schedule is long enough as it is; adding another week or two would be ridiculous. Even though I think there is plenty of talent out there (especially world-wide), an elite-level athlete's body can take only so much punishment.

As for Mexico, I can see a team in Monterrey, NL before I can see one in Mexico City.

Monterrey is small compared to Mexico City. And in some respects it's even more dangerous. The farther North you go in Mexico the more it is controlled by the drug cartels.