I noticed that, on the stretch of I-81 northeast of Harrisburg from I-83 to I-78, the bridges carrying it are wide enough, and the overpasses long enough, to add a third lane up to 78. I noticed traffic was heavy on that stretch, so does anyone know if PennDOT has any plans? I haven't heard of any.
I noticed the same when I returned to my home in New York two years ago.
All of Interstate 81 from Lebanon, PA to at least Interstate 77 in southeastern Virginia needs to be widened to six lanes. The cost would be staggering in the tens of billions! A very heavily traveled Interstate with many, many trucks.
I-81 doesn't go to Lebanon. :P
But I know what you mean: I-78, right?
I'd argue it should be widened from I-40 all the way to I-78, and then I-78 should be widened from I-81 to NJ.
I do agree, I travel 81 from TN to PA about a dozen times a year (I get to do this next Thursday) and yes, this highway is getting choked at places. TN is not bad but from about Wytheville north it gets bad, they are building a couple climbing lanes in VA but ultimently it needs to be widend.
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 01, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
I-78 was originally built as US 22 from exit 8 to exit 51 in the late 1950's or early 1960's, so interstate criteria did not apply to this highway. It probably started as an expressway with some at-grade intersections then was upgraded on the spot to be a freeway. Making I-78 six lanes from I-81 to Allentown would require homes and businesses to be torn down because of their close proximity to the freeway (some no more than 20 feet from the edge of the shoulder).
Some examples are the house with the ham radio antennas right next to WB I-78 around mm 12 (or 14), the businesses at exit 17, and the recently re-done area at Hamburg (exit 30). Plus, as an aside, I would hate to see the RIRO at exit 15 go, only from an historical perspective.
Quote from: amroad17 on October 02, 2012, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 01, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
I-78 was originally built as US 22 from exit 8 to exit 51 in the late 1950's or early 1960's, so interstate criteria did not apply to this highway. It probably started as an expressway with some at-grade intersections then was upgraded on the spot to be a freeway. Making I-78 six lanes from I-81 to Allentown would require homes and businesses to be torn down because of their close proximity to the freeway (some no more than 20 feet from the edge of the shoulder).
Some examples are the house with the ham radio antennas right next to WB I-78 around mm 12 (or 14), the businesses at exit 17, and the recently re-done area at Hamburg (exit 30). Plus, as an aside, I would hate to see the RIRO at exit 15 go, only from an historical perspective.
And Roadside America.
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 01, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
"in each direction" <-- I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.
Quote from: Steve on October 02, 2012, 06:42:08 PM
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 01, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
"in each direction" <-- I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.
What I meant in the post I made was the Eastbound and Westbound lanes of Interstate 78 in Pennsylvania this might help you clarify the phrase "in each direction."
Quote from: amroad17 on October 02, 2012, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 01, 2012, 09:28:05 PM
Just noticed that I-78 East and west in Pennsylvania from exit 60-75 or exit 53-1 is only 4 lanes wide in each direction and Penndot should make I-78 at least 6 lanes wide in each direction from exit 1-53 and from exit 60-75. Just like I-78 in New Jersey does have 6 lanes in each direction from the Delaware river bridge up to exit 48 in Springfield,NJ :D
I-78 was originally built as US 22 from exit 8 to exit 51 in the late 1950's or early 1960's, so interstate criteria did not apply to this highway. It probably started as an expressway with some at-grade intersections then was upgraded on the spot to be a freeway. Making I-78 six lanes from I-81 to Allentown would require homes and businesses to be torn down because of their close proximity to the freeway (some no more than 20 feet from the edge of the shoulder).
Some examples are the house with the ham radio antennas right next to WB I-78 around mm 12 (or 14), the businesses at exit 17, and the recently re-done area at Hamburg (exit 30). Plus, as an aside, I would hate to see the RIRO at exit 15 go, only from an historical perspective.
Another problem of having I-78 being 6 lanes wide from exit 60 by Center Valley,PA up to Exit 75 in Williams Township,PA was the overpass and bridges can't handle 6 lanes wide and will require a rebuild of exit 71 the PA-33 interchange to support the 6 lanes of I-78
And Roadside America.
[/quote]
I didn't say that, you did! :P
The stretch of I-78 from exit 8 to around Foglesville was part of the 4-lane US 22 and I think dates back to the early 50's, possibly late 40's It was one of the first 4 lane highways built in PA outside the Turnpike. It used to be REALY rough until sometime after I moved to TN 9 years ago and some areas were rebuilt from the ground up and some were resurfaced.
Quote from: jpi on October 03, 2012, 10:53:40 PM
The stretch of I-78 from exit 8 to around Foglesville was part of the 4-lane US 22 and I think dates back to the early 50's, possibly late 40's It was one of the first 4 lane highways built in PA outside the Turnpike. It used to be REALY rough until sometime after I moved to TN 9 years ago and some areas were rebuilt from the ground up and some were resurfaced.
Is not the I-78 Freeway from Lenhartsville to Fogelsville not up to interstate standards? Is not that the reason why the speed limit is STILL 55 mph from Hamburg to Allentown? Yes, I know from PA 100 to the PA 309 split it is urban, but from PA 100 to PA 61 is not and does not have the 65 mph.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 04, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
Quote from: jpi on October 03, 2012, 10:53:40 PM
The stretch of I-78 from exit 8 to around Foglesville was part of the 4-lane US 22 and I think dates back to the early 50's, possibly late 40's It was one of the first 4 lane highways built in PA outside the Turnpike. It used to be REALY rough until sometime after I moved to TN 9 years ago and some areas were rebuilt from the ground up and some were resurfaced.
Is not the I-78 Freeway from Lenhartsville to Fogelsville not up to interstate standards? Is not that the reason why the speed limit is STILL 55 mph from Hamburg to Allentown? Yes, I know from PA 100 to the PA 309 split it is urban, but from PA 100 to PA 61 is not and does not have the 65 mph.
The 65 mph zone used to end pretty quickly after the 22 merge. PennDOT is actively upgrading 78 for the rest of the merge, fixing shoulders, increasing median barrier height, and not quite sure what else, in order to continue raising the speed limit. Doesn't affect the travel speed one whit.
The reason it's still 55 between Hamburg and Fogelsville is because of the narrow footprint the road is on through the hilly area there. Trees are rather close to the road in some areas and it's rather curvy in some spots (from exit 35 to 40). For it to go to 65 mph, tree clearing and expanded shoulder work needs to be done.
You should have seen the area around Hamburg before it was re-done. Narrow and tight ramps around exit 30 and it felt like you were squeezing between houses just to get through there. What is there now is a 150% improvement. However, 55 mph is the proper speed for that section the way it is currently.
I just wish they'd replace the bridge over the Surekill Schuylkill River already and make give it an auxiliary lane for each direction. :bigass:
Quote from: Steve on October 04, 2012, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 04, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
Quote from: jpi on October 03, 2012, 10:53:40 PM
The stretch of I-78 from exit 8 to around Foglesville was part of the 4-lane US 22 and I think dates back to the early 50's, possibly late 40's It was one of the first 4 lane highways built in PA outside the Turnpike. It used to be REALY rough until sometime after I moved to TN 9 years ago and some areas were rebuilt from the ground up and some were resurfaced.
Is not the I-78 Freeway from Lenhartsville to Fogelsville not up to interstate standards? Is not that the reason why the speed limit is STILL 55 mph from Hamburg to Allentown? Yes, I know from PA 100 to the PA 309 split it is urban, but from PA 100 to PA 61 is not and does not have the 65 mph.
The 65 mph zone used to end pretty quickly after the 22 merge. PennDOT is actively upgrading 78 for the rest of the merge, fixing shoulders, increasing median barrier height, and not quite sure what else, in order to continue raising the speed limit. Doesn't affect the travel speed one whit.
Another thing that Penndot would do if they were to rebuild this section was to use Clearview font signs in place of the Gothic font signs from exit 51-29 if it was rebuilt and I-78 has Clearview font signs from exit 75-67 and this was done from November 2011 to June 2012.
Quote from: Roadsguy on October 05, 2012, 11:49:23 AM
I just wish they'd replace the bridge over the Surekill Schuylkill River already and make give it an auxiliary lane for each direction. :bigass:
The Surekill Expressway was named after the Surekill River.
In other parts of the state, there is a Surekill County and several Surekill Townships.
Quote from: amroad17 on October 05, 2012, 12:46:49 AM
However, 55 mph is the proper speed for that section the way it is currently.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQ0cqSDODfSh5DE8eD5z68C8l6oOIV4GkWklOh1ktjA0hoLXVuprGM_cg&hash=91cd36978f508180d3f119847bd3420d59678052)
I've driven that section, and there is no reason that it cannot be safely negotiated at 65 mph, which is the speed at which I drive it when I'm on it.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 05, 2012, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on October 05, 2012, 12:46:49 AM
However, 55 mph is the proper speed for that section the way it is currently.
I've driven that section, and there is no reason that it cannot be safely negotiated at 65 mph, which is the speed at which I drive it when I'm on it.
I have to agree with hb here. I've driven this section many times in both directions and I don't feel that 65-70 feels unsafe through there. Traffic tends to flow at that speed too, so if the majority is traveling at that speed, it can't be all that unsafe.
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
Quote from: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
I wouldn't worry about PA troopers on I-78. I've only ever seen them near it's terminus at I-81 and near the NJ border. Both instances were only once each, and I've driven both directions end-to-end at least 50 times. Also both areas are 65 mph zones. Cops have no where to sit in the 55 zones.
Quote from: signalman on October 12, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
I wouldn't worry about PA troopers on I-78. I've only ever seen them near it's terminus at I-81 and near the NJ border. Both instances were only once each, and I've driven both directions end-to-end at least 50 times. Also both areas are 65 mph zones. Cops have no where to sit in the 55 zones.
The following region will let you get away with (at least) 74 in a 55, based on numerous experiences: Start with the greater DC area. Encompass Baltimore, then spread up along the I-81 and I-95 corridors, swallowing everything in your path. Once you hit the Delaware Memorial Bridge on I-95, just use the coastline (starting with the southern outline of NJ). On the west, your line should go from Binghamton to Albany, across the top of Massachusetts, and ending up around the Portland area.
You know the section from Fogelsville to Hamburg should be redone. It should be done like I-4 was done in Lakeland, FL. New carrigeways were built for I-4 on both sides of the freeway and the old freeway was made a wider median for the new roadways. I think, if I-78 was to be widened to six lanes here, it would pay to have it done this way. Now I do not know how much blasting of rock would need to be as I am not too familiar with the topiary of the land here, as in Florida there is no bedrock and laying a bed down for freeway grading is simple. Anyway, in a world where money was no object, then I would say build a new I-78 on both sides of the existing freeway and give I-78 the interstate type of median it deserves and make it more standard for higher speeds with new lanes and less curves.
West of Hamburg, what FDOT for I-275 in Tampa would work here. That is the completely relocated the NB Lanes to the side of the former ones and left alone the SB Lanes. I am not sure if a newer wider median has been placed in the old NB Lanes from US 92 (Dale Mabry) to Downtown Tampa or what they did, but just build a new WB I-78 from Exit 29 to Exit 8 and leave the EB as is. Then the old WB lanes would become median and the former center shoulder would make a third eastbound lane.
I-81, of course, would need widening from I-78 to I-83 as you can't have I-78s three lanes narrow to two at another busy corridor joining in to add more traffic.
That should be the plan if something could be done.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 18, 2012, 10:04:05 PM
You know the section from Fogelsville to Hamburg should be redone. It should be done like I-4 was done in Lakeland, FL. New carrigeways were built for I-4 on both sides of the freeway and the old freeway was made a wider median for the new roadways. I think, if I-78 was to be widened to six lanes here, it would pay to have it done this way. Now I do not know how much blasting of rock would need to be as I am not too familiar with the topiary of the land here, as in Florida there is no bedrock and laying a bed down for freeway grading is simple. Anyway, in a world where money was no object, then I would say build a new I-78 on both sides of the existing freeway and give I-78 the interstate type of median it deserves and make it more standard for higher speeds with new lanes and less curves.
West of Hamburg, what FDOT for I-275 in Tampa would work here. That is the completely relocated the NB Lanes to the side of the former ones and left alone the SB Lanes. I am not sure if a newer wider median has been placed in the old NB Lanes from US 92 (Dale Mabry) to Downtown Tampa or what they did, but just build a new WB I-78 from Exit 29 to Exit 8 and leave the EB as is. Then the old WB lanes would become median and the former center shoulder would make a third eastbound lane.
I-81, of course, would need widening from I-78 to I-83 as you can't have I-78s three lanes narrow to two at another busy corridor joining in to add more traffic.
That should be the plan if something could be done.
That's silly. It's far cheaper to widen an existing roadway, even when it's on structure, than to built a completely new one.
The I-4 and I-275 widenings in Tampa involved clearing an entire city block for the new lanes. But they got the RNC so it's all good. (No connection. Really.)
Quote from: Steve on October 20, 2012, 01:41:50 PMThat's silly. It's far cheaper to widen an existing roadway, even when it's on structure, than to built a completely new one.
Actually, from what I gather from UK schemes, it's only cheaper in terms of planning, as you don't have to do as much of it (ie take it to enquiry if little-to-no demolition, keep it inside existing highway boundaries, etc).
The traffic management of the roadworks for widening adds a large cost that negates the land costs - it's ends up about the same per-mile to build a new 4-lane freeway as to widening a 6-lane one to 8-lanes.
Likewise new-built rail schemes cost about the same as line-speed and signalling increases. We recently spent years upgrading our main Mainline Railway, when figures for building a parallel faster line (which was going to be entirely privately funded) were not that much more expensive than the figures for the upgrade (£8billion v £10billion for new line) and the timescales about the same (7 years ish) - the upgrades ended up costing £15billion and took over 10 years. An equivalent new build scheme in a different part of the country was done on-time and under budget. We now plan on building the new line anyway, though I'd imagine that we would have had to upgrade the old route even with the new line. Again, managing the pre-existing traffic was a major headache.
Quote from: english si on October 20, 2012, 06:53:56 PM
Quote from: Steve on October 20, 2012, 01:41:50 PMThat's silly. It's far cheaper to widen an existing roadway, even when it's on structure, than to built a completely new one.
Actually, from what I gather from UK schemes, it's only cheaper in terms of planning, as you don't have to do as much of it (ie take it to enquiry if little-to-no demolition, keep it inside existing highway boundaries, etc).
The traffic management of the roadworks for widening adds a large cost that negates the land costs - it's ends up about the same per-mile to build a new 4-lane freeway as to widening a 6-lane one to 8-lanes.
But we're not talking about a new 4-lane freeway. It's a lot cheaper to widen a 6-lane freeway to 8 lanes than to build a new 8-lane freeway and then demolish the old one.
Quote from: Steve on October 20, 2012, 09:37:32 PM
But we're not talking about a new 4-lane freeway. It's a lot cheaper to widen a 6-lane freeway to 8 lanes than to build a new 8-lane freeway and then demolish the old one.
Does this change if you're flattening out vertical curvature (as was done on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando)?
Quote from: NE2 on October 20, 2012, 10:42:48 PM
Quote from: Steve on October 20, 2012, 09:37:32 PM
But we're not talking about a new 4-lane freeway. It's a lot cheaper to widen a 6-lane freeway to 8 lanes than to build a new 8-lane freeway and then demolish the old one.
Does this change if you're flattening out vertical curvature (as was done on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando)?
That becomes more like a new road, because now you're digging up the old one in order to build a new one - plus more difficult traffic control to boot.
Quote from: Steve on October 21, 2012, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 20, 2012, 10:42:48 PM
Quote from: Steve on October 20, 2012, 09:37:32 PM
But we're not talking about a new 4-lane freeway. It's a lot cheaper to widen a 6-lane freeway to 8 lanes than to build a new 8-lane freeway and then demolish the old one.
Does this change if you're flattening out vertical curvature (as was done on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando)?
That becomes more like a new road, because now you're digging up the old one in order to build a new one - plus more difficult traffic control to boot.
This will cause even more problems on I-81 from exit 66 to exit 89 where the bridges will not support the 6 or 8 lanes going towards I-78, but exit 70 (I-83) will require a rebuild if Penndot decides to widen 23 miles of I-81 from Harrisburg to Jonestown.
Quote from: signalman on October 12, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
I wouldn't worry about PA troopers on I-78. I've only ever seen them near it's terminus at I-81 and near the NJ border. Both instances were only once each, and I've driven both directions end-to-end at least 50 times. Also both areas are 65 mph zones. Cops have no where to sit in the 55 zones.
Keep in mind PA state police also Hide out by exit 67 and exit 71 since these are high traffic zones before exit 75 (last exit in Pennsylvania), and I've seen one hide by the PA-33 s to I-78 ramp and PA-412
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on November 07, 2012, 11:00:02 PM
Quote from: signalman on October 12, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
I wouldn't worry about PA troopers on I-78. I've only ever seen them near it's terminus at I-81 and near the NJ border. Both instances were only once each, and I've driven both directions end-to-end at least 50 times. Also both areas are 65 mph zones. Cops have no where to sit in the 55 zones.
Keep in mind PA state police also Hide out by exit 67 and exit 71 since these are high traffic zones before exit 75 (last exit in Pennsylvania), and I've seen one hide by the PA-33 s to I-78 ramp and PA-412
You're fine driving up to 10 over the limit.
Quote from: PAHighways on November 08, 2012, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on November 07, 2012, 11:00:02 PM
Quote from: signalman on October 12, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
I did base my opinion on when I drove my box truck through that area, sometimes with 10,000 pounds on it. I usually went about 55-60 mph through there and cars did pass me. If I was in a car, I would probably go 65 also--hopefully not getting stopped for speeding.
I wouldn't worry about PA troopers on I-78. I've only ever seen them near it's terminus at I-81 and near the NJ border. Both instances were only once each, and I've driven both directions end-to-end at least 50 times. Also both areas are 65 mph zones. Cops have no where to sit in the 55 zones.
Keep in mind PA state police also Hide out by exit 67 and exit 71 since these are high traffic zones before exit 75 (last exit in Pennsylvania), and I've seen one hide by the PA-33 s to I-78 ramp and PA-412
You're fine driving up to 10 over the limit.
You are right about this but on US-22 from 25th street up to PA-611 PA state police seem to pull over drivers who are speeding 10 over the limit because they are approaching the cemetary curve too fast this section has a speed limit between 45 to 25 mph.
I-81 is planned to be widened to three lanes in each direction from I-83 to Linglestown (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2015/11/is_relief_in_sight_for_traffic.html) (Exits 70-72) in case someone did not know already starting later this year. I noticed that no one ever added that in here.
That's one exit. Unambitious PennDOT is unambitious.
I suspect the idea here is that having a third lane extend a couple extra miles instead of both lanes from 83 quickly ending might smooth the merge up.
Although realistically if I had to make a list of "four lane interstates that badly need to be six laned", that section of I-81 is not high on it, so... eh.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
That's one exit. Unambitious PennDOT is unambitious.
I suspect the idea here is that having a third lane extend a couple extra miles instead of both lanes from 83 quickly ending might smooth the merge up.
Although realistically if I had to make a list of "four lane interstates that badly need to be six laned", that section of I-81 is not high on it, so... eh.
In PA, 81 between 78 and 83 does get quite crowded. Of course, that said, 78 across the Delaware River would have to be a higher priority. They're starting to address 80 through Stroudsburg but need to get the widening back to 380.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
That's one exit. Unambitious PennDOT is unambitious.
I suspect the idea here is that having a third lane extend a couple extra miles instead of both lanes from 83 quickly ending might smooth the merge up.
Although realistically if I had to make a list of "four lane interstates that badly need to be six laned", that section of I-81 is not high on it, so... eh.
For the record, this is also a precursor to the I-83 widening (http://www.i-83beltway.com/eastshoresection1.html) to six lanes (plus auxiliary lanes) from south of Union Deposit Road to I-81, currently planned to start in 2018 (though the replacement of overpasses is slated to begin later this year).
I do wonder how badly I-83 in York needs to be six-laned on that list though now that it is on the table.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 26, 2016, 08:40:18 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
That's one exit. Unambitious PennDOT is unambitious.
I suspect the idea here is that having a third lane extend a couple extra miles instead of both lanes from 83 quickly ending might smooth the merge up.
Although realistically if I had to make a list of "four lane interstates that badly need to be six laned", that section of I-81 is not high on it, so... eh.
For the record, this is also a precursor to the I-83 widening (http://www.i-83beltway.com/eastshoresection1.html) to six lanes (plus auxiliary lanes) from south of Union Deposit Road to I-81, currently planned to start in 2018 (though the replacement of overpasses is slated to begin later this year).
I do wonder how badly I-83 in York needs to be six-laned on that list though now that it is on the table.
It needs it from Mt Rose AVE to Emigsville badly, this is on the drawing board, just not sure when it will actually happen.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 26, 2016, 03:59:40 PM
I-81 is planned to be widened to three lanes in each direction from I-83 to Linglestown (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2015/11/is_relief_in_sight_for_traffic.html) (Exits 70-72) in case someone did not know already starting later this year. I noticed that no one ever added that in here.
This project has started as of this week. (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/10/drivers_face_more_construction.html)
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 26, 2016, 04:07:45 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 26, 2016, 03:59:40 PM
I-81 is planned to be widened to three lanes in each direction from I-83 to Linglestown (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2015/11/is_relief_in_sight_for_traffic.html) (Exits 70-72) in case someone did not know already starting later this year. I noticed that no one ever added that in here.
This project has started as of this week. (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/10/drivers_face_more_construction.html)
At least it sounds like there is no one-lane cattle chute work zone each way contemplated unlike I-81 passing Ravine, Schuylkill County. Pennsylvania (roughly MP 104 to MP 96).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 26, 2016, 05:26:21 PM
At least it sounds like there is no one-lane cattle chute work zone each way contemplated unlike I-81 passing Ravine, Schuylkill County. Pennsylvania (roughly MP 104 to MP 96).
From what I heard, the real problem with that work zone is that the cars and other vehicles consistently get held up behind the trucks. (especially when headed uphill, also of course any accident could close one direction completely) I do not believe that District 5 realized how much of a problem that would be.
On the other hand, there are no good alternatives in that area either. (though maybe local traffic has used PA 443 and PA 125 more than usual)
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 26, 2016, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 26, 2016, 05:26:21 PM
At least it sounds like there is no one-lane cattle chute work zone each way contemplated unlike I-81 passing Ravine, Schuylkill County. Pennsylvania (roughly MP 104 to MP 96).
From what I heard, the real problem with that work zone is that the cars and other vehicles consistently get held up behind the trucks. (especially when headed uphill, also of course any accident could close one direction completely) I do not believe that District 5 realized how much of a problem that would be.
On the other hand, there are no good alternatives in that area either. (though maybe local traffic has used PA 443 and PA 125 more than usual)
Agreed regarding northbound traffic. It looked to me like there were long queues of traffic backed up behind the northbound tractor-trailer combinations.
I drove it southbound (on the left lane of the northbound side) in the dark.
Very unpleasant, even though that side is indeed mostly downhill.
My biggest complaint is that PennDOT does not widen overpasses to allow the "wrong-way" side to have more than a gnat's eyelash worth of room over the bridges, especially challenging for larger commercial vehicles. And if PennDOT (or PTC) wants to use cattle chute work zones, it really ought to budget for at least one (ideally two) freeway service patrol trucks to be on-duty 24/7 to deal with the inevitable problems, and be able to contact state police when needed.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2016, 11:50:40 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 26, 2016, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 26, 2016, 05:26:21 PM
At least it sounds like there is no one-lane cattle chute work zone each way contemplated unlike I-81 passing Ravine, Schuylkill County. Pennsylvania (roughly MP 104 to MP 96).
From what I heard, the real problem with that work zone is that the cars and other vehicles consistently get held up behind the trucks. (especially when headed uphill, also of course any accident could close one direction completely) I do not believe that District 5 realized how much of a problem that would be.
On the other hand, there are no good alternatives in that area either. (though maybe local traffic has used PA 443 and PA 125 more than usual)
Agreed regarding northbound traffic. It looked to me like there were long queues of traffic backed up behind the northbound tractor-trailer combinations.
I drove it southbound (on the left lane of the northbound side) in the dark. Very unpleasant, even though that side is indeed mostly downhill.
My biggest complaint is that PennDOT does not widen overpasses to allow the "wrong-way" side to have more than a gnat's eyelash worth of room over the bridges, especially challenging for larger commercial vehicles. And if PennDOT (or PTC) wants to use cattle chute work zones, it really ought to budget for at least one (ideally two) freeway service patrol trucks to be on-duty 24/7 to deal with the inevitable problems, and be able to contact state police when needed.
I don't see how you widen overpasses, unless you mean just shifting the barrier over a foot or two. It is
very expensive to do any structural work.
Quote from: Alps on October 29, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
I don't see how you widen overpasses, unless you mean just shifting the barrier over a foot or two. It is very expensive to do any structural work.
I concede the expense (having never designed a bridge or bridge deck replacement due to lack of technical expertise), probably into seven figures even for a "simple" bridge widening (though Maryland has frequently widened bridges as part of a deck replacement or bridge replacement project, even when the adjacent sections of road are not being widened).
Of course, in my fantasy world, there would be no cattle chute work zones at all.
But because the bridges usually have right-hand shoulders in the "right" direction (and if they don't, I presume FHWA requires those to be added), it certainly seems they could follow your advice and "bulge" the barrier over at underpasses to give the wrong way side a little more room, which PennDOT does not seem to do.
Here is an update on the I-81 widening from Exits 70-72. (ABC27, also mentions the work on I-83, this link is also posted in the (http://abc27.com/2017/04/16/two-major-road-projects-kicking-off-in-dauphin-county/) general PA thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2410.msg2218658#msg2218658))
Quote from: Alps on October 29, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
I don't see how you widen overpasses, unless you mean just shifting the barrier over a foot or two. It is very expensive to do any structural work.
Sometimes another issue can be clearance on the roadway below. For drainage reasons, there might be a gradual downward slant on both sides (with the middle being slightly raised) - Widening it a few feet on either side would have to continue that slope (even if VERY gradual). I don't know how often this might be a problem, but I remember reading, some years ago, that being a reason they couldn't just widen the Freedom Rd. overpass over the PTC in Cranberry (which they're just going to replace with a complete wider structure in a couple of years - with a little higher clearance I would guess)
I-81 SB was three lanes from Exits 72-70 when I drove it Sunday. The third lane comes from the merge of the ramp from Exit 72 onto the interstate south of the interchange. The ramps from Mountain Rd onto I-81 SB merge together now before that ramp merges onto I-81 SB.
NB still has work that needs to be done but a third lane makes it most of the way to Exit 72 now.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 31, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
I-81 SB was three lanes from Exits 72-70 when I drove it Sunday. The third lane comes from the merge of the ramp from Exit 72 onto the interstate south of the interchange. The ramps from Mountain Rd onto I-81 SB merge together now before that ramp merges onto I-81 SB.
NB still has work that needs to be done but a third lane makes it most of the way to Exit 72 now.
So does the former left lane of I-81 SB now become an exit only lane for I-83? On I-81 SB, is there now a lane shift required for both lanes to continue on I-81 SB after I-83?
As construction winds down for winter, I-81 to be three lanes near Harrisburg
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/11/as_construction_winds_down_for.html#incart_river_mobile_home
HTC6525LVW
Quote from: jemacedo9 on November 01, 2017, 07:28:36 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 31, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
I-81 SB was three lanes from Exits 72-70 when I drove it Sunday. The third lane comes from the merge of the ramp from Exit 72 onto the interstate south of the interchange. The ramps from Mountain Rd onto I-81 SB merge together now before that ramp merges onto I-81 SB.
NB still has work that needs to be done but a third lane makes it most of the way to Exit 72 now.
So does the former left lane of I-81 SB now become an exit only lane for I-83? On I-81 SB, is there now a lane shift required for both lanes to continue on I-81 SB after I-83?
The answer to your first question is yes. The former right lane of I-81 SB becomes the left lane through the I-83 interchange so you would not have to shift lanes from that lane.
That's a heavy enough traffic split that I don't see it being that huge of a deal.
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.
I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.
Quote from: Strider on November 03, 2017, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. It's TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, it's fine.
I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.
Only during typical weekday morning and afternoon metropolitan peak commuting hours?
Or at what other times as well?
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2017, 01:46:19 PM
Quote from: Strider on November 03, 2017, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on November 03, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
I usually travel I-81 between I-76 and I-84. Its TERRIBLE between I-83 and I-78, usually takes us 30-40 minutes just to get between the two, only to go 19 miles. Past I-78, its fine.
I agree. I-81 between I-83 and I-78 is usually TERRIBLE every time I travel between these interstates. I-81 needs to be 6 lanes between these two.
Only during typical weekday morning and afternoon metropolitan peak commuting hours?
Or at what other times as well?
It is slow midday weekdays and weekend days...just a lot of volume, including a lot of trucks. It definitely could be 6 lanes from I-83 to I-78. I think that I-81 south of PA 581 through/past Carlisle is pretty heavy also.
I've only experienced congestion on this section once and it was raining, so I chalked it up to the weather. I don't think I've ever driven that section in the peak direction during commuting hours, and I'd most certainly avoid doing so if at all possible. If I ever passed through on a weekend, it was either early in the morning or after dark. I guess I've been lucky overall. Although, I do know that if PennDOT deemed it necessary to be 6 lanes then it's been needed for a long time :sombrero:
I lived in Harrisburg for a couple of years around 2005, and I don't recall the stretch of I-81 between I-83 and I-78 to be the major (all caps and bold type) traffic trouble spot that people are claiming it to be. As I recall, traffic would slow to a crawl in the vicinity of the I-81/I-83 interchange, and while traffic was typically heavy up through the Linglestown Road interchange (PA 39), it was generally flowing at or near posted speeds, even during rush hours. If there was an incident, however, traffic would start to mount very quickly. North of Linglestown Road up through the I-78 split was almost always a fast ride.
Scanning through Google Maps' typical traffic, I see only one major trouble area. Southbound I-81 tends to back up–both during the morning and afternoon peaks–between Linglestown Road and I-83. The worst day and time appears to be Friday at 4:30 p.m., when traffic starts to slow approaching PA 39 and is at nearly a standstill between that interchange and the Linglestown/Paxtonia exit. But once you get beyond the merge area from I-83 NB to I-81 NB, I can't find a corresponding backup northbound on any day at any time. And both directions are green from Grantville to I-78 on all times, all days of the week.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4464/38112748312_2d21e56558_b.jpg)
I should have clarified slow: in this case, hard to maintain 55/65 for that entire stretch. it's a lot of speeding up to 65 and then slowing down for pockets of truck traffic. The volumes are high enough that 45/50 seems to be the general speed. So...may be that Google maps shows green; but I wouldn't call it free-flowing either.
It should be six lanes out to 78, but you could make a case for 8 between 83 and 39 (and 22/322 to 83).
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow". Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.
Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split? Sure. Is it warranted because of congestion? Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow". Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.
Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split? Sure. Is it warranted because of congestion? Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.
45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.
Get out of New Jersey and check out what some other DOTs consider, Steve...for example, 45 is MnDOT's standard threshold for gauging hours of congestion in the Twin Cities.
I may have erred in saying "most standard definitions", but MnDOT isn't the only place I've seen 45 referenced. There are also plenty of other measures of congestion besides LOS.
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 12:40:18 PM
Get out of New Jersey and check out what some other DOTs consider, Steve...for example, 45 is MnDOT's standard threshold for gauging hours of congestion in the Twin Cities.
I may have erred in saying "most standard definitions", but MnDOT isn't the only place I've seen 45 referenced. There are also plenty of other measures of congestion besides LOS.
I'm just going by the Highway Capacity Manual and standard traffic engineering practice, as well as my professional observations. Sorry, but I have to pull that card at some point. Also, what you might tolerate in an urban setting is different from semi-rural such as 81.
Quote from: Alps on November 05, 2017, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow". Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.
Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split? Sure. Is it warranted because of congestion? Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.
45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.
I
strongly concur. 45 MPH on a road with a posted limit of 55 MPH or better (I don't remember what the limits are on I-78 westbound approaching I-81 or on I-81 southbound approaching I-83 are) is not a good thing, and I think it likely that that LOS D/E tends to lead to crashes.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 05, 2017, 07:55:06 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 05, 2017, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
^^ If it's going at least 45, then by most standard definitions it's "free flow". Drivers may not agree (clearly you don't), but 45 MPH is a general speed threshold for whether congestion is occurring or not.
Would it be nice to have 6 lanes up to the 78 split? Sure. Is it warranted because of congestion? Based on comments in this thread plus my own observations, I'd say no.
45 mph is not the "threshold for congestion." About 5 mph below the speed limit is when operations are noticeably degraded. That would roughly correspond to the LOS D/E threshold. Even if you still have traffic moving at that point, you warrant an additional lane. In my experience, I-81 clearly warrants another lane.
I strongly concur. 45 MPH on a road with a posted limit of 55 MPH or better (I don't remember what the limits are on I-78 westbound approaching I-81 or on I-81 southbound approaching I-83 are) is not a good thing, and I think it likely that that LOS D/E tends to lead to crashes.
Like Steve said, what you might tolerate in an urban setting is different from semi-rural such as 81. Some these discussions about rural Interstate congestion compare it to what might be tolerated on an urban freeway, and I would make the same distinction, for example while 70,000 AADT may be tolerable on a 4-lane urban freeway, even 45,000 AADT would be problematic on say a 50-mile section of 4-lane rural Interstate highway and the kind of rolling backups might happen in peak hours on a long section of highway.
Quote from: billpa on November 01, 2017, 01:15:12 PM
As construction winds down for winter, I-81 to be three lanes near Harrisburg
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/11/as_construction_winds_down_for.html#incart_river_mobile_home
HTC6525LVW
Both directions of I-81 are now three lanes from I-83 to Mountain Rd (Exits 70-72) as of Monday. (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/11/3_lanes_of_i-81_now_fully_open.html#incart_river_index)
Before Monday, it was three lanes up to the exit to Exit 72A but the third lane ended about 1/4-1/2 mile before.
With a virtual public meeting (https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1219) ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting (https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1219) ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.
There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 17, 2020, 08:45:42 PM
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.
The excuse about needing toll plazas to dispense tickets and collect cash between the Turnpike and intersecting "free" freeways no longer applies, since the entire PTC network is now cashless. But I doubt that the PTC and PennDOT have much interest in bypassing Breezewood-style non-connections.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 17, 2020, 08:45:42 PM
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.
I think that they would make sure the I-81/US 11 interchange at Exit 52 stayed if a direct connection was built between I-81 and the PA Turnpike. I am not so sure about the I-76 one though economic interests may win in this entire battle anyway.
Quote from: Crown Victoria on September 17, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting (https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1219) ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.
There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.
I know the bridges are being widened in the Wyoming Valley, but is there a project page or timetable for widening? It's gotten pretty rough that I've taken the Turnpike to bypass stoppages and congestion during peak times.
Quote from: seicer on September 18, 2020, 10:11:03 AM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on September 17, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
With a virtual public meeting (https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1219) ongoing regarding the I-81 corridor south of I-78 as a whole, I propose changing this thread into a general I-81 thread for either this entire corridor or even all of PA.
There's definitely enough going on (or proposed to happen at some point) along I-81 in PA to warrant expanding this thread. Expanding at least to include the corridor from Maryland to I-78 should happen, but considering there's also a lot of work lined up in the Wyoming Valley, calling this thread I-81 in PA is not without merit.
I know the bridges are being widened in the Wyoming Valley, but is there a project page or timetable for widening? It's gotten pretty rough that I've taken the Turnpike to bypass stoppages and congestion during peak times.
If there's a project page for the Wyoming Valley I-81 work, I'm not aware of it. However, I do know there's the project announced last December around the 81/309 interchange near Wilkes-Barre, as well as the Scranton Beltway work with the Turnpike. There was a project also lined up at one time to widen from Moosic to Dunmore, but as far as I'm aware that's not imminent. Of course all these projects could be changed/delayed with the current situation we're in.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 18, 2020, 09:12:14 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 17, 2020, 08:45:42 PM
Any chance they could add an interchange between Interstate 81 and the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike? Although if they did that, they might have to close both highways' interchanges with US 11 due to the existing exits' proximity to Interstate 81 crossing over the Interstate 76/Pennsylvania Turnpike.
I think that they would make sure the I-81/US 11 interchange at Exit 52 stayed if a direct connection was built between I-81 and the PA Turnpike. I am not so sure about the I-76 one though economic interests may win in this entire battle anyway.
PTC needs to finish the 95/295/276 interchange first before they can begin spending 50 years building a direct connection to I-81.
That said, perusing the area there seems to be plenty of room to build such an interchange without disrupting too much else. The existing turnpike interchange with US 11 would be fine since you'd have well over half a mile between gore points. The I-81 interchange would need to be braided to avoid weaving.
The saving grace with the turnpike now being permanently cashless is you can just build the interchange like it's between two ordinary freeways and throw up a couple gantries across the turnpike mainline on either side to determine who's entering or exiting. No more need for any sort of double trumpet design.
Plus only building an East to north and south to west ramps would likely cover 60% of the movements.
Quote from: Duke87 on September 19, 2020, 01:56:38 PM
That said, perusing the area there seems to be plenty of room to build such an interchange without disrupting too much else. The existing turnpike interchange with US 11 would be fine since you'd have well over half a mile between gore points. The I-81 interchange would need to be braided to avoid weaving.
Yes, that would be the simple and likely superior way to do it considering the existing high speed setup for US11's exit. However, I doubt that's what the PTC will do.