New Jersey

[roadman65]

Well Florida has a situation where I-295 keeps the same number around the whole loop, but North becomes South and South becomes North on both ends where it meets I-95.

[vdeane]

It is bad the way they did that for sure. The first exit should be Amboy Ave/ NJ 35 North. I agree with Alps on that the U Turn Info should be on a ground mount separately.

The second exit should be NJ 35 South  and NJ 184 West with TO GSP N Bound as a control city.  The pull through should read NJ 440 South to GSP South and maybe Somerville or Morristown as a control city.

This is the worst signing I have ever seen.

I also loathe NJDOT reassigning the directions back in the late eighties from E-W to N-S as well. It worked better as an E-W Route signed. There was no confusion as far as I saw.

Yeah, that change was never great because you have a south to north and north to south direction change between 287 and 440. You can have a route change directions fine. I get that it was to stay contiguous with the New York and northern New Jersey segments, but that's still jarring.

NJDOT is generally loathe to sign any route with more than one direction. 36 and 7 are the only ones I can think of. They should've done that with 295, but alas...

I'm fine with 295 continuing its direction that it's followed for the first 67 miles. It's better than the North to South/South to North transition that used to happen when it just became 95 after the Rt 1 exit.

That's a NJ centric viewpoint. Its really what happens right after it leaves NJ that is a problem... signing a highway which is entirely north-south as east west, just to avoid the situation that existed before (which at least had the advantage of changing route numbers).

There was really no one great option to resign 95. I still personally think it would been better just to do away with an x95 and giving it an x76, which would work as it connects to I-276... when PTC finally get around to completing the interchange that is.

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

[Roadsguy]

It is bad the way they did that for sure. The first exit should be Amboy Ave/ NJ 35 North. I agree with Alps on that the U Turn Info should be on a ground mount separately.

The second exit should be NJ 35 South  and NJ 184 West with TO GSP N Bound as a control city.  The pull through should read NJ 440 South to GSP South and maybe Somerville or Morristown as a control city.

This is the worst signing I have ever seen.

I also loathe NJDOT reassigning the directions back in the late eighties from E-W to N-S as well. It worked better as an E-W Route signed. There was no confusion as far as I saw.

Yeah, that change was never great because you have a south to north and north to south direction change between 287 and 440. You can have a route change directions fine. I get that it was to stay contiguous with the New York and northern New Jersey segments, but that's still jarring.

NJDOT is generally loathe to sign any route with more than one direction. 36 and 7 are the only ones I can think of. They should've done that with 295, but alas...

I'm fine with 295 continuing its direction that it's followed for the first 67 miles. It's better than the North to South/South to North transition that used to happen when it just became 95 after the Rt 1 exit.

That's a NJ centric viewpoint. Its really what happens right after it leaves NJ that is a problem... signing a highway which is entirely north-south as east west, just to avoid the situation that existed before (which at least had the advantage of changing route numbers).

There was really no one great option to resign 95. I still personally think it would been better just to do away with an x95 and giving it an x76, which would work as it connects to I-276... when PTC finally get around to completing the interchange that is.

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

Alternatively, they could have done what PennDOT wanted to do for a while and extend I-195 around Trenton, cutting 295 back to the 195 interchange. This was also rejected by NJDOT because they didn't want to have to change all the mile markers and renumber all the exits.

They also briefly considered creating a new I-395, presumably completely replacing 295 all the way to the 195 interchange. I only saw mention of this once (I forget where exactly) and dismissed it as a typo until the 2018 "Golden Spike" road meet, when we got to visit the project office and I did indeed see I-395 listed on one of the interchange diagrams.

[famartin]

It is bad the way they did that for sure. The first exit should be Amboy Ave/ NJ 35 North. I agree with Alps on that the U Turn Info should be on a ground mount separately.

The second exit should be NJ 35 South  and NJ 184 West with TO GSP N Bound as a control city.  The pull through should read NJ 440 South to GSP South and maybe Somerville or Morristown as a control city.

This is the worst signing I have ever seen.

I also loathe NJDOT reassigning the directions back in the late eighties from E-W to N-S as well. It worked better as an E-W Route signed. There was no confusion as far as I saw.

Yeah, that change was never great because you have a south to north and north to south direction change between 287 and 440. You can have a route change directions fine. I get that it was to stay contiguous with the New York and northern New Jersey segments, but that's still jarring.

NJDOT is generally loathe to sign any route with more than one direction. 36 and 7 are the only ones I can think of. They should've done that with 295, but alas...

I'm fine with 295 continuing its direction that it's followed for the first 67 miles. It's better than the North to South/South to North transition that used to happen when it just became 95 after the Rt 1 exit.

That's a NJ centric viewpoint. Its really what happens right after it leaves NJ that is a problem... signing a highway which is entirely north-south as east west, just to avoid the situation that existed before (which at least had the advantage of changing route numbers).

There was really no one great option to resign 95. I still personally think it would been better just to do away with an x95 and giving it an x76, which would work as it connects to I-276... when PTC finally get around to completing the interchange that is.

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

Alternatively, they could have done what PennDOT wanted to do for a while and extend I-195 around Trenton, cutting 295 back to the 195 interchange. This was also rejected by NJDOT because they didn't want to have to change all the mile markers and renumber all the exits.

They also briefly considered creating a new I-395, presumably completely replacing 295 all the way to the 195 interchange. I only saw mention of this once (I forget where exactly) and dismissed it as a typo until the 2018 "Golden Spike" road meet, when we got to visit the project office and I did indeed see I-395 listed on one of the interchange diagrams.

Last I checked, 695 and 895 are both available. 395 doesn't make sense to me given its more of a loop than a spur, at least the section in question. I disliked the 195 idea since then it would have to follow one-lane ramps, which is always a no-no in my book.

295 works fine if you sign it with some sense (north-south in PA, east-west from the river to 1, south-north beyond). Certainly MD and VA have locations where junctions are signed with different cardinal sets along the beltways. Don't see why this is a problem for I-295 north of Trenton, but whatevs.

[jeffandnicole]

Alternatively, they could have done what PennDOT wanted to do for a while and extend I-195 around Trenton, cutting 295 back to the 195 interchange. This was also rejected by NJDOT because they didn't want to have to change all the mile markers and renumber all the exits.

The biggest problem with this is for a driver to continue on 195, one would need to utilize a single lane ramp.  Where this condition exists elsewhere, many people, especially those on this forums, generally disapprove of this type of routing.

They also briefly considered creating a new I-395, presumably completely replacing 295 all the way to the 195 interchange. I only saw mention of this once (I forget where exactly) and dismissed it as a typo until the 2018 "Golden Spike" road meet, when we got to visit the project office and I did indeed see I-395 listed on one of the interchange diagrams.

I liked this idea.  Creates a half-beltway around Trenton, gives it its own identity, and since most affected exits were going to be renumbered anyway, the only cost difference would've been to anything related from NJ 295's Exit 60 to Exit 67.

I still regret not being able to attend that meet.

[roadman65]

They should do what VDOT did for the awkward section of I-64 in Chesapeake, VA and just leave off the banners.

[SignBridge]

Banners? Do you mean compass directions?

LOL Yeah, they could follow German Autobahn practice around the whole region and just show route numbers and lots of city names, without directions. I wonder if that would be better or worse than what exists now.

[NJRoadfan]

Umm...I'm on I-295. *which direction?* UMM...... Phila?

[roadman65]

Umm...I'm on I-295. *which direction?* UMM...... Phila?

Hey VDOT uses VA Beach and Richmond.  However Richmond is signed  EB instead of WB as the EB end defaults into NB I-664 which loops back to I-64 in Hampton.

https://goo.gl/maps/Gz5RECwFRd1BAEa58

https://goo.gl/maps/FnCJVMyfUbHwt9Km8
Here's another banner less I-64 assembly.  Add US 17 North to EB unbannered I-64.
Talk about confusing. Yet locals get by.

[Rothman]

This thread's gone all fictional.

[roadman65]

This thread's gone all fictional.

No we are talking about number anomalies on roadways that exist already.

[Rothman]

This thread's gone all fictional.

No we are talking about number anomalies on roadways that exist already.

No, people are throwing around all sorts of ideas about what NJ should do.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/DAnpo79i9fSSYjKZA

This would work on I-295 in Ewing and Lawrence Townships. Use Camden and Philadelphia underneath the shields.

[famartin]

Don't see why this wouldn't work at various locations... (particularly at US 1 and NJ 29)
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3740038,-76.7500704,3a,75y,143.67h,88.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.4478%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0356904,-77.1446543,3a,75y,154.56h,93.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYHp4ijx42SEUDd_2ZyZ2Dw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[roadman65]

Don't see why this wouldn't work at various locations... (particularly at US 1 and NJ 29)
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3740038,-76.7500704,3a,75y,143.67h,88.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.4478%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0356904,-77.1446543,3a,75y,154.56h,93.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYHp4ijx42SEUDd_2ZyZ2Dw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Indiana on their beltway also changes cardinal directions.  The change in PA is most confusing as the road don't run east-west at all.   They seemed to playing in South Carolina's playbook who loves to sign some E-W routes as N-S

[jeffandnicole]

This thread's gone all fictional.

No we are talking about number anomalies on roadways that exist already.

No, people are throwing around all sorts of ideas about what NJ should do.

Or really, what NJ should have done, and rehashing the same argument from 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 19 months ago, etc..

What no one has proven: Have people have actually been confused about their direction of travel due to the cardinal direction posted.

[akotchi]

Don't see why this wouldn't work at various locations... (particularly at US 1 and NJ 29)
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3740038,-76.7500704,3a,75y,143.67h,88.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DLr5Q0a6E_TLj_yAoQYEt4w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.4478%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0356904,-77.1446543,3a,75y,154.56h,93.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYHp4ijx42SEUDd_2ZyZ2Dw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That is how the local road signing is formatted now at the interchanges on either side of the Scudder Falls Bridge (Taylorsville Road and NJ 29).

[NJRoadfan]

Folks tend to forget the Atlantic City Expressway did exactly this. Only recently did it start posting East/West on trailblazers. The shield banners used to say "PHILA" and "SHORE POINTS".

https://goo.gl/maps/jRLK5UkTNRhdoQyo6
https://goo.gl/maps/m6hBv3ZTvsfw64Wm7

[Alps]

This thread's gone all fictional.

No we are talking about number anomalies on roadways that exist already.

No, people are throwing around all sorts of ideas about what NJ should do.

This does not equate to Fictional. This is trying to solve a real problem on a real road.

[storm2k]

It is bad the way they did that for sure. The first exit should be Amboy Ave/ NJ 35 North. I agree with Alps on that the U Turn Info should be on a ground mount separately.

The second exit should be NJ 35 South  and NJ 184 West with TO GSP N Bound as a control city.  The pull through should read NJ 440 South to GSP South and maybe Somerville or Morristown as a control city.

This is the worst signing I have ever seen.

I also loathe NJDOT reassigning the directions back in the late eighties from E-W to N-S as well. It worked better as an E-W Route signed. There was no confusion as far as I saw.

Yeah, that change was never great because you have a south to north and north to south direction change between 287 and 440. You can have a route change directions fine. I get that it was to stay contiguous with the New York and northern New Jersey segments, but that's still jarring.

NJDOT is generally loathe to sign any route with more than one direction. 36 and 7 are the only ones I can think of. They should've done that with 295, but alas...

I'm fine with 295 continuing its direction that it's followed for the first 67 miles. It's better than the North to South/South to North transition that used to happen when it just became 95 after the Rt 1 exit.

That's a NJ centric viewpoint. Its really what happens right after it leaves NJ that is a problem... signing a highway which is entirely north-south as east west, just to avoid the situation that existed before (which at least had the advantage of changing route numbers).

There was really no one great option to resign 95. I still personally think it would been better just to do away with an x95 and giving it an x76, which would work as it connects to I-276... when PTC finally get around to completing the interchange that is.

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

The only state that ever did that was Connecticut when it signed the original CT Turnpike E-W but even that gave way to N-S cardinals after a while. Plus, 95 would have gone N-S in a general sense if they had built the Somerset Freeway. That would have been a non-starter as 95 is N-S from the Keys to the Canadian border even if it does travel in a more E-W orientation in some sections.

[jeffandnicole]

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

The only state that ever did that was Connecticut when it signed the original CT Turnpike E-W but even that gave way to N-S cardinals after a while. Plus, 95 would have gone N-S in a general sense if they had built the Somerset Freeway. That would have been a non-starter as 95 is N-S from the Keys to the Canadian border even if it does travel in a more E-W orientation in some sections.

95 between DC and Philly is more East-West than North-South as well. The section in Cecil County MD is almost a wrong way direction as its nearly perfectly East-West there.

[roadman65]

The direction situation could have been solved were NJ willing to sign former I-95 as east-west.  Then NJ could sign their portion is north-south without that issue.  But no, NJ had to have a stick up its rear, and now we have a very north-south route signed east-west in PA to avoid south becoming north and vice-versa at the border.

The only state that ever did that was Connecticut when it signed the original CT Turnpike E-W but even that gave way to N-S cardinals after a while. Plus, 95 would have gone N-S in a general sense if they had built the Somerset Freeway. That would have been a non-starter as 95 is N-S from the Keys to the Canadian border even if it does travel in a more E-W orientation in some sections.

95 between DC and Philly is more East-West than North-South as well. The section in Cecil County MD is almost a wrong way direction as its nearly perfectly East-West there.

That's like I-94 between Chicago and Milwaukee but E- W  running N-S instead. Even with the redundant I-41 to upgrade US 41, I don't think it confuses people either.

[bzakharin]

Folks tend to forget the Atlantic City Expressway did exactly this. Only recently did it start posting East/West on trailblazers. The shield banners used to say "PHILA" and "SHORE POINTS".

https://goo.gl/maps/jRLK5UkTNRhdoQyo6
https://goo.gl/maps/m6hBv3ZTvsfw64Wm7

On the ACE I think cardinal directions together with control cities work just fine. One can argue whether "Atlantic City" is better than "Shore Points", but the former follows the rules whereas the latter does not

[roadman65]

Atlantic City Expressway needs to update their signs. I don't think they have ever had a major sign replacement ever. Many still use upper case letters on them and the cloverleaf at the Parkway has been long overdue.  Plus the Exit 2 guides with Atlantic City via Black Horse Pike is so old.  Just sign the thing " US 40-322 East- Albany Avenue"  and use Downbeach and Margate City as supplemental control points on separate sign.

[vdeane]

I wouldn't equate the situation with I-95 in CT and I-94 south of Milwaukee with I-295.  Those routes are overall as signed, even if that section doesn't match.  The way I-295 is signed doesn't get you one set of directions on the route (it changes at the border), and it doesn't get you accurate directions (the PA portion is perpendicular to how it's signed).  It doesn't solve anything over signing PA properly and having it be east-west in NJ on the portion that was formerly I-95.  In fact, it makes things worse and pushes the problem from NJ to PA, something that seems to be a trend with this whole affair, going all the way back to the cancellation of the Somerset Freeway.  It basically acts as half a beltway around Trenton, and beltways routinely change directions, for good reason.