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Looks like north Texas may get some higher speed limits on freewys that had speed limits reduced for environmental reasons. Good article below and there is a link in it to the full slideshow proposal details.

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/08/planners-consider-higher-speed-limits-on-several-north-texas-freeways.html/ (http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/08/planners-consider-higher-speed-limits-on-several-north-texas-freeways.html/)

The legislature passed a law in 2003 prohibiting new environmental speed limits, but not requiring removal of the existing ones.  I always thought the environmental speed limits were legally invalid, since state law specifies reasons a speed limit can be lowered and none of those reasons relates to air pollution.

Regional tollway authorities can now establish speed limits as high as 75, but this is discretionary and not mandatory.  NTTA might want to consider raising limits, especially if they're increased on other roads, in order to maintain a speed incentive.

Bout time.  No one in the DFW area does the speed limit anyway so might as well have it up as high as they drive.

They finally got the video from the RTC meeting posted online.  I'm always interested in the details.  The NTTA speed limit increases were offset, emissions-wise, by removing cash collection and the associated stop-and-go conditions.  The emissions impact from these proposed increases is small due to improvements in emission controls in the past decade.  The increase in emissions-per-mile with increasing speed is now much smaller compared with 10 years ago.  As a result, the projection is that only one ton of extra emissions per day will occur, compared with 255 tons total.  TxDOT will look for offsets, which shouldn't be too difficult, and RTC is ready to assist.

If this is implemented, speed limits across the region will change more gradually while moving closer to or further from the most urban areas.  The speed limit along I-20, which avoids the urban cores, will be 65 or 70 the whole way from Parker County to Kaufman County.

This was discussed again yesterday.  http://nctcog.swagit.com/play/09122013-589 (http://nctcog.swagit.com/play/09122013-589)  It's item 6.  There's a new set of maps with some slight differences from the previous ones.  http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/2013/09Sept/Ref.Itm_6.rtc091213.pdf (http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/2013/09Sept/Ref.Itm_6.rtc091213.pdf)

Some people wondered if the speed study results didn't reflect "unimpeded" travel but instead reflected strict enforcement.  The particular concerns are with I-45 in Ellis County, with some saying the speed limit should be 75, and I-20 in Parker County, with some saying the speed limit should be 70 all the way across the county.  The TxDOT engineer said that they have to follow the results of the speed test, but that the speed limit on I-45 could be increased to 75 later if future speed studies warrant, and that, likewise the 70 mph zone in Parker County might be extended eastward.

Michael Morris, brilliant as he always is, suggested conducting speed checks on a Saturday, when a higher proportion of traffic is travelers, rather than commuters and locals who know where the strict enforcement is done.  He prefers to get the speeds set correctly in one step so they can look at the offsets all at once, instead of doing it in two steps and having to analyze offsets and get EPA and TCEQ approval again.  He hopes that the long-distance travelers will show an 85th percentile that reflects the characteristics of the road and not locations of strict enforcement.

On the other hand, freeways that are about to go under construction were not looked at.  They'll be studied after the construction is done.  This means there may be a second round of increases, anyway.  This could result in higher 85 percentile speeds on roads where the limits are being increased in this first round.

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 14, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
Bout time.  No one in the DFW area does the speed limit anyway so might as well have it up as high as they drive.

They actually do drive the limit or below in DFW, in the far left lane, which is supposed to be the freaking fast lane!

Quote from: seanpatf on September 19, 2013, 10:26:40 PM

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 14, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
Bout time.  No one in the DFW area does the speed limit anyway so might as well have it up as high as they drive.

They actually do drive the limit or below in DFW, in the far left lane, which is supposed to be the freaking fast lane!

Each time I am up there I am driving 70 on The Dallas North Tollway in the daytime and I will get passed by several cars like I am sitting still. They have to be doing 95 or 100. I was there this weekend. Same thing happened on Dallas North Tollway and Sam Raburn Tollway.

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 25, 2013, 12:22:01 PM

Quote from: seanpatf on September 19, 2013, 10:26:40 PM

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 14, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
Bout time.  No one in the DFW area does the speed limit anyway so might as well have it up as high as they drive.

They actually do drive the limit or below in DFW, in the far left lane, which is supposed to be the freaking fast lane!

Each time I am up there I am driving 70 on The Dallas North Tollway in the daytime and I will get passed by several cars like I am sitting still. They have to be doing 95 or 100. I was there this weekend. Same thing happened on Dallas North Tollway and Sam Raburn Tollway.

I was there a week ago and I was going 80 on I-30 between FW and Dallas and I know I was passed by several cars.  Those 65mph signs get laughed at down there!!!  Might as well get them more near the speed of traffic down there which seems to be 70-80 on average....with a few 100 mph's coasting around on the DFW freeways.

There's been one more step forward.  The EPA has approved a change to the state implementation plan to recategorize environmental speed limits as transportation control measures.  The environmental rules regulating pollution control are still in place, but the pollution control will no longer be tied specifically to speed limits.  This is something that's been worked on for years, but took new significance when the statewide speed limit increased to 75, which increases the speed drop at the county lines, and makes for a bigger differential between actual speed limits and the highest that could be placed.  The RTC agenda does not show any proposed speed limit changes and emission offsets, but the wheels have turned further in that direction.  The latest information on specific proposals is upthread, although, as mentioned, some changes to those proposals, with more and bigger speed limit increases, are hoped for and may be announced in the near future.

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/2014/02Feb/Ref.Itm_3.5.rtc021314.pdf (http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/2014/02Feb/Ref.Itm_3.5.rtc021314.pdf)

Makes no sense that I-35E south of Dallas is 65 except for a few miles north of Hillsboro.

According to Michael Morris in yesterday's RTC meeting, the transportation control measures and increased speed limits may be brought for RTC action next month.  That meeting is early in the month, so potentially the TTC minute order late in the month could officially establish the speed limits, meaning the signs could start changing as soon as April.

YAY!!

The Regional Transportation Council today agreed to fund $54 million in projects aimed at easing the state's attempts to raise speed limits on scores of area highways.

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/03/txdots-plan-to-raise-speed-limits-clears-key-hurdle.html/

I was just watching today's RTC meeting.  The new plan seems to be to lift all environmental speed limits, as opposed to approving specific speed limit increases.  Obviously, due to increases in development and traffic during the past 13 years, not all speed limits that were cut will be increased.  They want to start with restoring the limits in place before, and then study possible increases to 75.  This reduces the problem caused by strict enforcement inducing artificially low speeds, since strict enforcement may prevent 85^th percentile speeds 10 mph above the speed limit even if the speed were safe.

They still have to estimate the emissions reductions from the operational improvements paid for with the $54 million and show that the reductions will offset the increase caused by higher speed limits.  The projected emissions increase is fairly small, about 0.4 tons of oxides of nitrogen per day.  While the EPA has approved the change in the method of implementation (you can raise your speed limit if you offset the emissions increase), TCEQ approval is needed before the environmental speed limits can be officially removed (you must show that these specific improvements will at least offset the emissions increases due to the speed limit increase).

Due to the removal of all environmental speed limits, there may be increases on non-freeway facilities and non-fringe area facilities, unlike what had been proposed before.  While no specific speed limit changes were discussed, it is assumed that the environmental speed limits in place will be removed, resulting in increases of 5 mph, where that's safe to do.  The changes to 75 may be staged in two steps, and the changes will take time since TCEQ has not yet given approval.

Moving along, ever so slowly...

RTC was updated on the progress yesterday.  In summary, the actual work is done, offsets are identified and calculated and the projects are funded; all that's left is formalities.  The formalities take time.  It's expected that TxDOT can start changing speed limits as early as November.

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/Item_7.rtc071014.pdf

The models they've run are based on setting the speed limits back to where they were.  This won't happen on some roads; some speed limits are now lower than the initial reduction due to traffic and development changes, and some others likely won't be increased for the same reason.  They're just using those assumptions for the models to make calculations on which to base offset requirements.  After all of this is finalized, authority over speed limits will go back to TxDOT, who will then set limits according to their normal practices, which may include increases above 2001 levels or to 75.  With this arrangement, two-step increases (65 to 70 then 70 to 75) are not problematic, as they were under the initial proposal.

The managed lanes along I-35E and I-635 will have 70 mph speed limits under the speed zone minute order this month.  At least a part of them already have Speed Limit 70 signs.  This isn't technically related to environmental speed limits, since those stretches of road didn't get environmental limits since the old speed limits weren't high enough, but it is a case of higher limits.  These are the only 70 mph speed limits on non-NTTA roads in Dallas County.

Quote from: wxfree on August 27, 2014, 12:36:35 PMThese are the only 70 mph speed limits on non-NTTA roads in Dallas County.

SH 161 between the PGBT and the PGBT Western Extension is 70mph, as is the bit of SH 121 between Sandy Lake/Grapevine Mills and the south end of the SRT.

Quote from: dfwmapper on August 27, 2014, 12:55:04 PM

Quote from: wxfree on August 27, 2014, 12:36:35 PMThese are the only 70 mph speed limits on non-NTTA roads in Dallas County.

SH 161 between the PGBT and the PGBT Western Extension is 70mph, as is the bit of SH 121 between Sandy Lake/Grapevine Mills and the south end of the SRT.

Thank you for the corrections.  I knew about SH 161, but it skipped my attention because it connects two NTTA sections.  I'd forgotten about the stretch of SH 121 you mentioned.  Those sections had lower speed limits in 2001 and no environmental limits were established there, leaving TxDOT free to increase limits when they found it suitable.

We're basically there.  It should be done in the spring.  Most of the planned changes are shown on maps in this file.  Some roads still need to be studied more.  The numbers in the squares show planned speed limits on roads that don't have environmental speed limits.  There are quite a few increases there, too.

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/documents/Item_9.rtc111314.pdf (http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committees/rtc/documents/Item_9.rtc111314.pdf)

Loving those changes to the eastern portion of LBJ and everything in Ellis County. Next step is for NTTA to follow in Austin's footsteps and raise all the toll roads to 75 where appropriate.

Quote from: dfwmapper on November 14, 2014, 06:00:22 AM
Loving those changes to the eastern portion of LBJ and everything in Ellis County. Next step is for NTTA to follow in Austin's footsteps and raise all the toll roads to 75 where appropriate.

The maps show NTTA roads that had environmental speed limits (those that existed in 2001 and had speed limits of at least 65) as "to be studied," even where the speed limit is already 70.  NTTA had its environmental speed limits removed some years back, by offsetting emissions increases with the improved efficiency of all electronic toll collection.  The maps suggest that they're looking at further increases.  Only the ESL roads are labelled on the maps, because the maps show the disposition of ESL roads, but they're presumably also looking at the newer roads, too.

The first, as far as I've seen, of the speed limit increases has been officially adopted.  The Weatherford city council has increased the speed limit on I-20 within the city from 65 to 70, as recommended by TxDOT.  According to the most recent information I've seen, TxDOT is expected to approve speed limit increases across the Fort Worth and Dallas districts at the end of this month, including I-20 across the rest of Parker County.  Under Texas law, a city can adjust speed limits on state-maintained roads within its boundaries, although a speed limit approved by the state commission supersedes one approved by a city, so cities generally rely on TxDOT recommendations or pass ordinances affirming TxDOT minute orders so that the city can prosecute speeding offenses in the municipal courts (and thereby keep the fine money instead of losing it to the county through state law enforcing JP courts).
http://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/news/council-approves-speed-limit-change-meets-new-staff-member/article_95569fba-9c55-11e4-8269-235c61e5f953.html (http://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/news/council-approves-speed-limit-change-meets-new-staff-member/article_95569fba-9c55-11e4-8269-235c61e5f953.html)

The minute order is now available.  I've analyzed it and produced a map.  This map shows only increases in speed limit.

Yellow means 70, red diamonds mean 65, red lines mean 75.

Points of interest: 70 on US 75 will begin at Spur 366.  65 on I-35E will begin near the Mixmaster.  65 on I-30 in Dallas will begin near Fair Park.  65 on I-30 in Fort Worth will being near Hulen St. 65 on US 175 will begin at SH 310.  I-35W will be 70 all the way across Tarrant County, but existing work zone speed limits supersede that increase through work zones.

It will be neat to have all 70 or higher routes across the area both east-west and north-south.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg

I think I have this figured out now.  I'm not certain what happens when an environmental speed limit (or a regular speed limit, for that matter) is cancelled and not replaced with a new one.  I'd guess that means it goes back to what it was before.

I'm pleased to see these changes, but some seem illogical to me.
Why is I-45 in south Dallas county (semi-rural) 65mph, but I-635 and US 75 Central Expressway 70 mph? If any freeway should be 65, it is Central Expressway due to the number of ramps and tight space.

Still, I'm not complaining. I-45 was 55 mph in south Dallas County until recently, and then 60 mph all the way to Corsicana.

Link to the MO?

Quote from: dfwmapper on January 26, 2015, 07:53:10 PM
Link to the MO?

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/commission/2015/0129/14g.pdf (http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/commission/2015/0129/14g.pdf)

Some of the environmental speed limits were not cancelled.  Some of them were cancelled and replaced with the same speed limit.  Some of them were cancelled and replaced only inside city limits, to supersede any city ordinances that enacted the lower speed limit.  Some were cancelled and not replaced.  Some environmental speed limits were cancelled even though they don't seem to exist.

Some of the control section numbers used are incorrectly shown on the statewide planning map.  If you want to figure out what's been done where, you'll need to compare the minute order with these old documents that archive the enactment of the environmental speed limits.  The control section numbers in the minute order align with the ones shown in these documents.  I downloaded these from the NCTCOG web site.

This is a map that shows where the reductions were enacted, and it shows the Segment ID numbers used in the other document.  http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/ESL_Map.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/ESL_Map.pdf)

This is a list of the reductions.  This is where you see the correct descriptions of the control section numbers and mile points (note that the descriptions are approximations; the mile points are exact).
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/TXDOT%20Speeds%201201.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/TXDOT%20Speeds%201201.pdf)

Quote from: MaxConcrete on January 26, 2015, 07:15:06 PM
I'm pleased to see these changes, but some seem illogical to me.
Why is I-45 in south Dallas county (semi-rural) 65mph, but I-635 and US 75 Central Expressway 70 mph? If any freeway should be 65, it is Central Expressway due to the number of ramps and tight space.

Still, I'm not complaining. I-45 was 55 mph in south Dallas County until recently, and then 60 mph all the way to Corsicana.

That is interesting.  According to these tally sheets, at Loop 12 and north of US 175 the 85th percentile numbers are right around 70.
http://arencambre.com/txdotSpeedStudies/EPSON013.JPG (http://arencambre.com/txdotSpeedStudies/EPSON013.JPG)
http://arencambre.com/txdotSpeedStudies/EPSON014.JPG (http://arencambre.com/txdotSpeedStudies/EPSON014.JPG)

I've been there, but I'm not familiar enough with that stretch of road to know of geometrical or other challenges warranting a speed reduction below the 85th percentile.

Documents obtained from here: http://arencambre.com/blog/2014/04/10/txdot-dallas-district-to-keep-speed-trap-speed-limits/ (http://arencambre.com/blog/2014/04/10/txdot-dallas-district-to-keep-speed-trap-speed-limits/)

So if I'm reading this right, US 75 will be 70 in Dallas and Richardson, drop to 65 through Plano, then go back to 70 at the Allen city limits? I'm hoping there is some better sense applied to this like only going to 65 in Dallas/Richardson. I'm all for higher limits but cycling up and down is dumb, and the part of US 75 in Plano has way too many short merges and nasty weaving problems at the PGBT interchange. If it was increased to 70, it'll be right back before the TTC in a month asking for an emergency reduction.

Quote from: dfwmapper on January 26, 2015, 09:38:10 PM
So if I'm reading this right, US 75 will be 70 in Dallas and Richardson, drop to 65 through Plano, then go back to 70 at the Allen city limits? I'm hoping there is some better sense applied to this like only going to 65 in Dallas/Richardson. I'm all for higher limits but cycling up and down is dumb, and the part of US 75 in Plano has way too many short merges and nasty weaving problems at the PGBT interchange. If it was increased to 70, it'll be right back before the TTC in a month asking for an emergency reduction.

That's the way I read it.  Speeds from Spur 359 to the Dallas County line are not changed in this minute order.  They may plan to study that area more, or to just leave it like it is.  The Fort Worth district was a little more conservative.  I feel good about all the increases on their side.  Some of the changes on the Dallas side seem a little optimistic.  In addition to LBJ and Central, already mentioned, they're raising the limit on a curvy stretch of I-35E near the zoo.  I always thought the speed there could stand to be a bit lower.

This month's minute order fixes a problem addressed earlier, and implements another change that had been specified in the proposal but not enacted last month.  The speed limit will be 70 on US 75 from near Spur 366 to the beginning of the 75 mph speed zone.  Also, the proposal to increase the speed limit to 70 on Spur 408 and the freeway section of Loop 12 was left out last month, but included this month.  The map has been updated to reflect these changes.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg)

Didn't know if anyone was aware of it or not, but the new speed limits signs have been posted on parts of I-30 and I-635 in the Dallas Area.

On I-30, 65 MPH is now posted from just east of Fair Park in Dallas to just east of SH 205 in Rockwall. At that point, the speed limit jumps to 70 from there to the Hunt County line, where it jumps to 75.

On I-635, it is now posted at 70 from at least I-30 to the High Five. 

On US 75 south of the High Five towards downtown Dallas, the speed limit is still posted as 60 MPH.

That all I've been able to observe at the present time.

I was just about to mention new signs, too.  I-35E has signs for 75 to Waxahachie, and then 70.  The freeway portion of US 67 is posted at 70 in Ellis County, and 65 in Dallas County (I only saw as far as I-20).  70 is posted on I-20 in Dallas County and Spur 408.  Those areas are in the Dallas district.  I've seen no changes in the part of the Fort Worth district I've been to.

I didn't see any changes on US 75 between LBJ and the SRT the last few nights when I was driving on them, though I wasn't exactly paying attention to the signs either. I'll pay more attention when I drive up to Allen in a few days. They might hold off on any changes until the 2 big projects in Collin County are done.

I thought that way about the speed limit changes on I-30 in Rockwall County since there is two projects underway at Fate and Royce City, but TxDOT still raised the limit from 65 to 70 through there.

A minute order establishing a change in speed limit applies immediately, and it is required that it be acted upon as soon as practicable, unless that change is superseded by an existing order for a lower construction zone speed limit.

I-35E is posted at 65 from the Dallas/Ellis county line all the way to downtown. I didn't notice where it dropped down, but it was at least as far as the I-30 split. It really needs to drop at about Illinois though, the curves in Oak Cliff are far too sharp to be safely taken at 65. US 75 is still posted at 60 from downtown to the Plano/Allen border.

This month's minute order includes a little more.  The previously ordered increase to 65 along I-820 ended near US 377.  This month it was (will be) extended all the way to the turn south, and SH 121/183 will have a 65 mph speed limit from I-820 to where SH 121 splits.  From there, SH 183 will continue at 65 for nearly a mile to near FM 157.  These cover the main lanes that are paralleled by managed lanes (which have had speed limits set at 75).

That said, the Fort Worth district is years behind in posting new speed limits.  The increases to 75 on FM roads (ordered almost 2 years ago) have not been posted.  One increase to 75 ordered more than two years ago was not posted in February, the last time I went that way (US 67 west of Dublin).  Even emergency speed limit reductions are being neglected.  The minute orders are nice, but I wonder how long we'll be waiting for signs.

US 75 is now posted at 70mph at least between LBJ and PGBT.

Heading eastbound, LBJ goes up to 70 right where you cross under Coit.

The work zones in Rockwall County are combined into one long 65mph zone, sandwiched in between short stretches of 70.

I happened to be southbound on U.S. 75 last Sunday, past LBJ. I had to do a double take, but at least to loop 12, it was posted at 70 m.p.h., where I exited.

Looks like you guys found my web site. Has anyone driven in Plano recently? Are the speed limits really at 60, or did they at least revert to 65? Since environmental speed limits were repealed, they should at least be 65, but it doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't be 70 like the adjacent segments of US 75 in Richardson and Allen.

Quote from: Aren Cambre on May 27, 2015, 02:21:07 PM
Looks like you guys found my web site. Has anyone driven in Plano recently? Are the speed limits really at 60, or did they at least revert to 65? Since environmental speed limits were repealed, they should at least be 65, but it doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't be 70 like the adjacent segments of US 75 in Richardson and Allen.

Just got the answer from TxDOT Dallas District: this speed trap is intentional as they are about to do some construction in Plano.

Confirming, it's still posted at 60 northbound from a few feet north of where the 15th Street exit diverges to where it changes to 65 a bit north of exit 32A (formerly Frontage Rd, now the Bethany exit because of construction). Southbound it drops to 60 at the south end of the Rowlett Creek bridge, and goes up to 70 somewhere around Belt Line. Somehow there are no speed limit signs posted for several miles south of PGBT, which seems like a major oversight by TxDOT.

Finally, there's news to report in the Fort Worth district.  According to a news article, the speed limit has been raised to 70 on I-20 in Arlington.  Presumably, that means they're out making the changes across the district.  There were changes already made along I-820 but I think that area is maintained by the private company that runs the toll lanes, not the Fort Worth district.  According to the article, the signs will be changed throughout this month.

Although it doesn't relate to this topic, I'll be in the area over the weekend and will check on the 75 mph speed limits on the FM roads near Granbury.  Those were ordered more than two years ago and were not changed as of last weekend.  Maybe while they're out changing signs they'll get around to those, too.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Speed-Limits-Increasing-on-North-Texas-Highways-311522481.html (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Speed-Limits-Increasing-on-North-Texas-Highways-311522481.html)

I can personally report that much of the Fort Worth side has the signs up.  I-35W from the south has a speed limit of 70 all the way to the construction zone near I-30, and I-20 signs have been changed to west of Fort Worth.  Two-lane roads around Cresson and Rio Vista also have the new signs.  A couple of places I know didn't have the new signs Tuesday, so they're very recent.  I didn't check the north side of the district.  It takes a while to get started, but once they start it seems to go pretty quickly.

I was in Fort Worth on Thursday night and noticed that I-30 still had a speed limit posted at 60 mph from the Dallas County Line into downtown Fort Worth.

Quote from: wxfree on July 03, 2015, 05:33:11 PM
I can personally report that much of the Fort Worth side has the signs up.  I-35W from the south has a speed limit of 70 all the way to the construction zone near I-30, and I-20 signs have been changed to west of Fort Worth.  Two-lane roads around Cresson and Rio Vista also have the new signs.  A couple of places I know didn't have the new signs Tuesday, so they're very recent.  I didn't check the north side of the district.  It takes a while to get started, but once they start it seems to go pretty quickly.

I was on I-20 in Parker County last Saturday (June 27), and it was still 65 mph the whole way.

Quote from: Aren Cambre on July 04, 2015, 11:24:48 AM

Quote from: wxfree on July 03, 2015, 05:33:11 PM
I can personally report that much of the Fort Worth side has the signs up.  I-35W from the south has a speed limit of 70 all the way to the construction zone near I-30, and I-20 signs have been changed to west of Fort Worth.  Two-lane roads around Cresson and Rio Vista also have the new signs.  A couple of places I know didn't have the new signs Tuesday, so they're very recent.  I didn't check the north side of the district.  It takes a while to get started, but once they start it seems to go pretty quickly.

I was on I-20 in Parker County last Saturday (June 27), and it was still 65 mph the whole way.

OK, just traversed it again. It's 70 mph in Parker County now, then 65 mph once I think you cross 820 on the west side. Not 100% sure about that; I'm shotgun and didn't see the sign. On the east side. it's 60 mph at least through Fielder Rd. (where we are about to pass). As I-30 was 60 mph in Dallas County last Saturday, and TxDOT Dallas District is already done with its speed limit changes, I doubt the 60 MPH speed (trap) limit on I-30 midcities is changed.

The speed limit on I-20 is 70 from I-35W to at least Weatherford.  I haven't gone further east or west.  It's set to be changed to 70 all the way across the area from Parker County to Spur 557, and 75 east from there.

One of the earlier presentations to RTC suggested a possible speed limit of 65 on I-30 across nearly the whole area, minus the Canyon, but that was not included in the speed zone minute order.  I-30 will have a speed limit of 65 between I-820 and Hulen St. and east of Fair Park, and will stay at 60 in between.  A map showing the approved changes is here http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg

Yellow diamonds are 70, red diamonds are 65, and red lines are 75.

Note - My map could be wrong on I-635.  The control section numbers seem to have changed or are being shown incorrectly somewhere.  I can't tell if the 70 mph speed limit is west of I-35E or if it's between Preston Rd. (SH 289) and Garland Ave. (SH 78).

Edit - The map is now correct.

When I was down there in mid-May, I-20 had already been bumped up to 70 from the Tarrant/Dallas county line all the way east to where FM 2578 crosses over in Terrell. 75 east of that.

I-30 in Dallas County has a bunch of construction happening for the HOV->HOT conversion and the Horseshoe project, so there may not be a change through there until after all of that is done.

Regarding your chart wxfree, I-635 changes eastbound where Coit crosses over, so that's where it is for now. Coit to SH 121 will need a new speed study once construction is completed, but that will almost certainly end up at 70 as well. I've personally confirmed that every other change on your chart in Dallas District has been posted, except SH 114 which was still 60 when I drove it in May. If anyone is over on that side and can take a look, I'm sure at least a few of us are curious. Maybe I'll go for a drive next week.

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 05, 2015, 02:10:58 AM
When I was down there in mid-May, I-20 had already been bumped up to 70 from the Tarrant/Dallas county line all the way east to where FM 2578 crosses over in Terrell. 75 east of that.

I-30 in Dallas County has a bunch of construction happening for the HOV->HOT conversion and the Horseshoe project, so there may not be a change through there until after all of that is done.

Regarding your chart wxfree, I-635 changes eastbound where Coit crosses over, so that's where it is for now. Coit to SH 121 will need a new speed study once construction is completed, but that will almost certainly end up at 70 as well. I've personally confirmed that every other change on your chart in Dallas District has been posted, except SH 114 which was still 60 when I drove it in May. If anyone is over on that side and can take a look, I'm sure at least a few of us are curious. Maybe I'll go for a drive next week.

There isn't a change on SH 114.  (I think I remember a change somewhere around there, probably due to the end of construction, but it isn't associated with the ESL cancellations and wasn't mapped.)  The yellow markers are along the west end of I-635, which was one of my guesses when I was trying to figure out the control section confusion.  The map is now changed to show the conditions on the road.

Edit - It bothers me when I can't remember something.  I looked back through the minute orders and found that in February 2014 a minute order established a speed limit of 65 on SH 114 through Grapevine and Southlake.  This coincided with the completion of the rebuild.  The speed limit before wasn't high enough to warrant the environmental reduction.  There was a change in the area, but in Tarrant County and not related to ESL cancellation.

I went for a drive today, and noticed that I-635 is now posted at 65 between PGBT and SH 121. Given how wide open that part of LBJ is and how fast everyone drives, I would have expected it to be 70, but apparently not.

Realistically, the only time you could do 70 on US 75 between Dallas and McKinney is in the wee hours of the morning because traffic is really heavy at almost all hours and there is also construction.

The speed studies only count free-flow traffic. If there is a line of cars being held up by someone going really slow, only that very first car counts. If the road is fully congested like at rush hour, none of them count. The speed limit through Collin County has not yet changed, and won't until construction is complete.

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 26, 2015, 12:46:34 AM
I went for a drive today, and noticed that I-635 is now posted at 65 between PGBT and SH 121. Given how wide open that part of LBJ is and how fast everyone drives, I would have expected it to be 70, but apparently not.

That section of LBJ confused me.  Looking at all of the data, it seems that its control section number was changed since 2001.  Part of 2374-1 had an environmental speed limit cancelled, and also had a new speed limit of 70 established.  But these are two different 2374-1s.  The far east end was apparently that number before, and is now 2374-7.  It had an environmental speed limit of 60, which was cancelled and no new limit was established, so it went back to what it was before, 65.  The new 2374-1 is about from I-35E to SH 78 and part of that stretch is where the new limit of 70 was established.  The cancellation doesn't affect that part of the road because it didn't have an environmental speed limit (it had been at 60 all along).  The real kicker is that both the cancelled limit on the east end of the highway and the new speed limits that end near US 75 have the exact same ending mile point, 9.108.

I've gone over every TxDOT speed limit minute order that's online, back to 2005, and I've seen how sometimes they make no sense.  My favorite is when it's 14.708 miles from mile point 10.000 to mile point 37.247.  I can only wonder how that happened and where exactly the gap is.  But this is the biggest challenge they've given me.  I know of no other control sections that were renumbered.

I'll change my map to add the 65s in that area.

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 26, 2015, 11:54:11 AM
The speed studies only count free-flow traffic. If there is a line of cars being held up by someone going really slow, only that very first car counts. If the road is fully congested like at rush hour, none of them count. The speed limit through Collin County has not yet changed, and won't until construction is complete.

Through all of Collin, or just in Plano?

Last time I went through (mid-May), it was still 60 through Plano and 65 from the Plano/Allen line to the Collin/Grayson county line, just as it has been. The construction in Plano and Allen lasts until early 2017. SRT to US 380 is supposed to be done in early 2016, US 380 to south of SH 121 next month, and from there north to the current end is supposed to be done in about a year. From the end of the current construction through the FM 455 interchange is supposed to be let in December, and from that to the Grayson line will follow, so who knows when everything will be done. I might be making a trip up to Oklahoma this week so I'll confirm that they haven't change anything yet.

There is another increase on the minute order this month, on US 80.  The speed limit was already raised to 70 in Kaufman County.  This month they'll be raising the speed limit to 65 for about the first 2 miles after the split from I-30, and then 70 from there.

These increases are above the pre-ESL levels.  In 2001, the speed limit was 60 until I-635, 65 until Forney, and 70 east of there.  After this change, the speed limit will be 70 until about 2 miles before I-30, and 65 for the western end.

I made the Oklahoma trip today. Confirmed the speed limits on US 75 are as they have been. 60 through Plano, 65 from Plano/Allen line to Collin/Grayson line, 75 through Grayson except for the construction zone north of Howe and the substandard part in Sherman.

They're still working at this, gradually adding more increases.  I've updated the map to show the latest changes, including this month's minute order.

I-820 from the southern interchange with SH 121 south to I-20, 60 up to 65
US 77 south from Milford a short distance to the Hill County line, 65 up to 70
US 287 bypass around Waxahachie, 65 up to 70
SH 5 north from Anna a short distance to the Grayson County line, 65 up to 70
SH 78 from north of Blue Ridge to north of Farmersville, 65 up to 70
SH 121 from north of Melissa to Fannin County line, 65 up to 70
US 80 from east of Terrell to Van Zandt County line, 65 up to 70
Also, the 65 zone on SH 360 north of I-30 has been extended to the north end of the highway at SH 121

It appears that the speed limit along the western 9 miles of US 380 in Denton County will increase to 70.  In 2011 the environmental speed limit of 65 was cancelled and replaced with permanent speed limit of 65.  There was no change in number, but there was a change in status from a temporary speed limit reduced for environmental purposes to a permanent speed limit based on regular engineering.  The road has been upgraded from two-lane to a divided road.  The 2011 speed limit was cancelled last month.  No new limit was established, which I think means that there is no regulatory speed limit so the state default of 70 takes effect.

Due to personal curiosity, I wanted to see how the current speed limits compare with those of the late 90s, the post-55 and pre-ESL era.  A lot of the city freeways have higher speed limits now.  Most of the non-freeway roads have lower limits, either due to the 5 mph reduction being retained, or due to bigger reductions over the years for other reasons.  SHs 78 and 121 in northeastern Collin County and SH 171 in Parker County are the only two-lane highways (other than a couple of short pieces next to county lines) on which the original 70 mph speed limits were restored.

The increases on SH 121 between I-35W and I-820 and on SH 161 were implemented after those roads didn't get environmental speed limits and TxDOT later decided on the increases.  Those changes are not mapped, because they were "organic" changes unaffected by the ESL policy.  NTTA changes are not mapped (because I don't know them).

Green lines show reductions of 5 mph.  Black lines show reductions of 10 mph.  Some bigger reductions due to expansion of urban areas were not mapped.  Yellow diamonds show increases of 5 mph.  Red diamonds show increases of 10 mph.  The green circles along I-35W are where the speed limit was 55 (now 50 due to the work zone) and has been ordered increased to 70 when the work is complete, for an increase of 15 mph.  Places with no changes are not marked.  Managed lanes are not included.

Two small areas are somewhat confusing.  On the west end of US 80, there's a short unmapped increase from 60 to 65, and the mapped changes show an increase from 60 to 70 and east of I-635 an increase of 65 to 70.  Also, on US 175 the westernmost change is from 60 to 65, the red zone from about Loop 12 to I-20 is an increase from 60 to 70, and the yellow zone southeast is for 65 to 70.  Southeast from there, the speed limit was 70 before.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/eslcomps.jpg (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/eslcomps.jpg)

Quote from: wxfree on April 24, 2016, 02:11:05 AMThe increases on SH 121 between I-35W and I-820 and on SH 161 were implemented after those roads didn't get environmental speed limits and TxDOT later decided on the increases.  Those changes are not mapped, because they were "organic" changes unaffected by the ESL policy.  NTTA changes are not mapped (because I don't know them).

The SH 121 speed limit change to 65 MPH was done years ago, possibly more than 10 years ago. You are right that it was not subject to ESLs because it had a 60 mph speed limit before the silly ESL scheme started.

I've updated both maps to reflect this month's minute order, which raises the speed limit to 70 on I-635 as far west as I-35E, which is an increase of 10 mph above the old limit.  On I-635, the speed limit will be 70 from I-20 to I-35E, and then 65 to the Tarrant County line.  The Tarrant County portion is so short that no signs are posted, so the limit is effectively the same, although it's technically supposed to be 60.

Quote from: wxfree on April 25, 2016, 04:01:11 PM
I've updated both maps to reflect this month's minute order, which raises the speed limit to 70 on I-635 as far west as I-35E, which is an increase of 10 mph above the old limit.  On I-635, the speed limit will be 70 from I-20 to I-35E, and then 65 to the Tarrant County line.  The Tarrant County portion is so short that no signs are posted, so the limit is effectively the same, although it's technically supposed to be 60.

Glad they are doing that! Back in 2010, I met some civil engineers working on the I-635 redo project, and they said it has a 65 mph design speed. My personal experience with that road reinforces that design speed is just a laboratory measurement that should not control the speed limit. Now if they could just jack the tolled lanes to 85 mph... ;-)

The express toll lanes of I-635 are now posted at 75 mph. I wonder if this is the highest urban speed limit in the United States?

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHmb7eRV.jpg&hash=5c9300779bb5e21722d297e47ae07da333f7f8e9)

Quote from: Chris on April 28, 2016, 02:27:21 PM
The express toll lanes of I-635 are now posted at 75 mph. I wonder if this is the highest urban speed limit in the United States?

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHmb7eRV.jpg&hash=5c9300779bb5e21722d297e47ae07da333f7f8e9)

I hope you're OK that I totes stole this and posted it on Facebook. :-)

Quote from: Chris on April 28, 2016, 02:27:21 PM
The express toll lanes of I-635 are now posted at 75 mph. I wonder if this is the highest urban speed limit in the United States?

That depends on how you define "urban". SH 130 through Pflugerville has an 80mph limit. The LBJ TEXpress lanes weren't anywhere close to the first 75mph in Texas either. The I-820/SH 183/SH 121 TEXpress lanes were first in the DFW area, and the SH 45, 183A, and 290 toll roads in the Austin area had 75mph limits long before anything up here did.

They're still going.  This month includes a speed limit increase to 65 on I-345 between SS 366 and I-30 (the whole length of it).  The speed limit will be higher in the adjoining part of the downtown freeway loop than it is along the forested stretch of I-45 to the south.  Someone along I-45 in Dallas County must have really wanted low speed limits in order to end up with the disparities with I-635 and US 75, and now this one.

Quote from: wxfree on June 27, 2016, 07:20:55 PM
They're still going.  This month includes a speed limit increase to 65 on I-345 between SS 366 and I-30 (the whole length of it).  The speed limit will be higher in the adjoining part of the downtown freeway loop than it is along the forested stretch of I-45 to the south.  Someone along I-45 in Dallas County must have really wanted low speed limits in order to end up with the disparities with I-635 and US 75, and now this one.

Can you clarify? I-345 and I-45 in Dallas were signed at 65 MPH many months ago.

Quote from: Aren Cambre on July 05, 2016, 11:51:31 PM

Quote from: wxfree on June 27, 2016, 07:20:55 PM
They're still going.  This month includes a speed limit increase to 65 on I-345 between SS 366 and I-30 (the whole length of it).  The speed limit will be higher in the adjoining part of the downtown freeway loop than it is along the forested stretch of I-45 to the south.  Someone along I-45 in Dallas County must have really wanted low speed limits in order to end up with the disparities with I-635 and US 75, and now this one.

Can you clarify? I-345 and I-45 in Dallas were signed at 65 MPH many months ago.

Last month's minute order included a speed limit of 65 on the full length of I-345.  I check the orders every month and had not seen one establishing that speed on that road.  If the signs had already been changed, I can only guess that it was under the authority of a Dallas city ordinance, and that TxDOT is just now catching up in its minutes.  Cities have concurrent jurisdiction with TxDOT over speed limits.  I don't recall seeing any speed limit signs the last time I was there, a few months ago.

Southbound the last speed limit sign on US 75 is just before the ramp to Woodall Rodgers, and it's 70mph. The next speed limit sign, and the only one I-345, is right where the Main/Commerce ramp merges on, about 600' north of the center line of I-30 and that went from 60 to 65 between March and April 2015 based on the streetview history (https://goo.gl/maps/gknS1CS8e4s). Northbound the last sign is at the DART maintenance yard crossing just north of the US 175 merge (https://goo.gl/maps/JwtGHqtda6t), nothing on I-345, and the first one on US 75 is 70mph between the merge from Woodall Rodgers and the Haskell exit (https://goo.gl/maps/rKJiYhPbPe22). Whatever the limit was set as by the TTC before, it was never reflected via signage in the field. Also, the entire length of I-45 in Dallas County has been 65 for over a year, IIRC in the initial batch of changes, the same time it went to 70 in Ellis.

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 06, 2016, 01:26:19 AM
Southbound the last speed limit sign on US 75 is just before the ramp to Woodall Rodgers, and it's 70mph. The next speed limit sign, and the only one I-345, is right where the Main/Commerce ramp merges on, about 600' north of the center line of I-30 and that went from 60 to 65 between March and April 2015 based on the streetview history (https://goo.gl/maps/gknS1CS8e4s). Northbound the last sign is at the DART maintenance yard crossing just north of the US 175 merge (https://goo.gl/maps/JwtGHqtda6t), nothing on I-345, and the first one on US 75 is 70mph between the merge from Woodall Rodgers and the Haskell exit (https://goo.gl/maps/rKJiYhPbPe22). Whatever the limit was set as by the TTC before, it was never reflected via signage in the field. Also, the entire length of I-45 in Dallas County has been 65 for over a year, IIRC in the initial batch of changes, the same time it went to 70 in Ellis.

These are changes I was not aware of, and did not see in the minute orders.  TxDOT's policy is to coordinate with cities.  It seems Dallas made changes that were not reflected in the minute orders.  I'll have to change my map to reflect those changes.

Quote from: wxfree on July 06, 2016, 02:03:00 AMThese are changes I was not aware of, and did not see in the minute orders.  TxDOT's policy is to coordinate with cities.  It seems Dallas made changes that were not reflected in the minute orders.  I'll have to change my map to reflect those changes.

I'll bet you major $$$ that Dallas had nothing to do with it. Dallas's traffic engineering department is a joke, disregarding MUTCD and commonly-accepted engineering practices and routinely committing malparactice to frustrate and annoy drivers, such as unwarranted stop signs and lower speed limits. I think Dallas mentally got out of setting freeway speed limits when its arbitrary limits were overruled in the mid-'90s. See http://people.smu.edu/acambre/traffic2003/dallasSpeedLimitFaxes.asp (http://people.smu.edu/acambre/traffic2003/dallasSpeedLimitFaxes.asp).

Quote from: wxfree on July 06, 2016, 02:03:00 AM
These are changes I was not aware of, and did not see in the minute orders.  TxDOT's policy is to coordinate with cities.  It seems Dallas made changes that were not reflected in the minute orders.  I'll have to change my map to reflect those changes.

Is it possible that this is just another one of those oddities with the control sections like you came across with LBJ? Or a reversion to the old limits that was never updated via MO?

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 09, 2016, 11:36:46 PM

Quote from: wxfree on July 06, 2016, 02:03:00 AM
These are changes I was not aware of, and did not see in the minute orders.  TxDOT's policy is to coordinate with cities.  It seems Dallas made changes that were not reflected in the minute orders.  I'll have to change my map to reflect those changes.

Is it possible that this is just another one of those oddities with the control sections like you came across with LBJ? Or a reversion to the old limits that was never updated via MO?

Other than the LBJ confusion, I've never seen an apparently renumbered control section.  I've seen other oddities since I started paying attention during the statewide speed increase, but never another example of that.  In the minute order, the change along I-45 in Dallas County was along only 9 miles, so changes in control section numbers couldn't account for the difference in length.  The minute orders include cancelled speed zones.  The Transportation Code says that TTC may change speed limits "by order recorded in its minutes" so that appears to mean that there aren't changes by TxDOT without minute orders.  I've seen oddities over the years, variances from the minute order, that I can't explain.  This may be one of those.  My first guess would be that the change was based on a city ordinance, since the entire affected section is in Dallas, but a search of the city council records doesn't reveal an ordinance.  For now, it's a mystery.

In going back and looking through it some more, the original environmental speed limits and the cancellations of them only applied from the loop (I-20/I-635/SH 121/I-820) outwards, so they never would have applied to the northern section of I-45 to begin with. I did do a search to see if I could find any references to that control section in the MOs, and there weren't any, so I'm as stumped as you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that portion was never legally changed to 60 to begin with, and posting back as 65 was just correcting that earlier error?

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 01:48:53 PM
In going back and looking through it some more, the original environmental speed limits and the cancellations of them only applied from the loop (I-20/I-635/SH 121/I-820) outwards, so they never would have applied to the northern section of I-45 to begin with. I did do a search to see if I could find any references to that control section in the MOs, and there weren't any, so I'm as stumped as you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that portion was never legally changed to 60 to begin with, and posting back as 65 was just correcting that earlier error?

I'm nearly certain I-45 north of I-20 was 60 MPH before ESLs.

Quote from: Aren Cambre on July 10, 2016, 03:55:13 PM

Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 01:48:53 PM
In going back and looking through it some more, the original environmental speed limits and the cancellations of them only applied from the loop (I-20/I-635/SH 121/I-820) outwards, so they never would have applied to the northern section of I-45 to begin with. I did do a search to see if I could find any references to that control section in the MOs, and there weren't any, so I'm as stumped as you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that portion was never legally changed to 60 to begin with, and posting back as 65 was just correcting that earlier error?

I'm nearly certain I-45 north of I-20 was 60 MPH before ESLs.

It was.  Here's a map from 2001 showing the original ESLs.  Everything that isn't marked had a speed limit of 60 or less.  The file is no longer at the location I got it from on the NCTCOG web site, so I put it on my site.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/ESL_Map.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/ESL_Map.pdf)

On a semi-related note, here are the original speed zone minute orders going back go 1995, at the end of the 55 era.  Obviously, many have changed, but most of the ones set around DFW were still in effect in 2001.  The first one is from November, 1995 for Interstates and some urban freeways.  Mostly this is only for roads within cities.  The speed limits outside cities would go to the default of 70 and, at the time, 65 at night.  The minute order for parts inside cities was needed to change the lower limits that had been set by city ordinance.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/interstates.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/interstates.pdf)

In January 1996 the speed changes to state and US highways were made.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/shus.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/shus.pdf)

More speed limits were set in Tarrant County in February.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/tarrant96.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/tarrant96.pdf)

In June was the biggest speed zone minute order ever, setting speeds on FM/RM roads.  Remember that this list includes only parts of roads in cities, changing the limit from those set by past city ordinance, and rural parts with limits other than the default of 70/65.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/fm.pdf (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/fm.pdf)

Many limits have been lowered because of development, and many have been increased due to road improvements or changes in law (70 was the highest at the time).  But overall, these minute orders show the foundation on which the current era, post-55, speed limits are built and what they looked like pre-ESL.

Interestingly, the same part of I-45 is left out of the old minute order.  The southernmost 9.064 miles had a speed limit of 65, later lowered to 60, and recently restored to 65, while everything north of there isn't included.  Again, it would appear that the speed limit was set by city ordinance.  It's both frustrating and amusing that looking at all of this information just leads back the same question.

This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase.  The road has a ridiculous 50 mph speed limit between I-20 and I-30.  Most of that zone will have an increase to 60.  The end of the road, past University Dr., will keep the 50 mph limit.  The 60 mph zone to the south between will have a speed increase to 65.  The 70 mph zone will not change.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html)

Quote from: wxfree on August 01, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase

That's a much-needed speed limit increase. Driving 50 mph felt more like going 30mph. I'm wondering about the rationale for maintaining the 50mph limit east of University. The design is certainly suitable for a 60mph limit. I"m thinking that section will be raised to 60mph sometime in the future, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Quote from: wxfree on August 01, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase.  The road has a ridiculous 50 mph speed limit between I-20 and I-30.  Most of that zone will have an increase to 60.  The end of the road, past University Dr., will keep the 50 mph limit.  The 60 mph zone to the south between will have a speed increase to 65.  The 70 mph zone will not change.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html)

These speed limits are official now, with signs posted.

We have an update this month, with increases on I-45.  Speed limits will be 75 as far north as the Ferris city limit, about at the southern interchange with Business 45, will remain 70 in Ferris, and will increase to 70 in Dallas County as far north as I-20.  North of there the speed limit will remain at 65.

This gives I-45 the fastest approach from the south, which is suitable due to its more rural character.  The other two southern approaches have a speed limit of 70 up to the Dallas County line and then 65 north of there.  I-45 will have a limit 5 mph higher, excluding 1.8 miles in Ferris, as far north as I-20.  I'm updating the maps.  Since links to the maps are given on previous pages, and in different posts on different pages, I'll give both again here.  I've changed the red lines showing 75 mph speed limits to green circles, which are easier to see since the highways are red lines.

This map shows new speed limits that are higher than the environmental speed limits.  Red is 65, yellow is 70, and green is 75.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg)

For longer-term perspective, this map shows differences between current limits and those in place in the late 90s, before environmental limits.  There have been some impressive increases on urban freeways.  Spots mean the limit is higher, lines mean they're lower.  Yellow spots are 5 mph higher, red spots are 10 mph higher, and green spots are 15 mph higher.  Green lines mean 5 mph lower, black lines mean 10 mph lower.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/eslcomps.jpg (http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/eslcomps.jpg)

Edit -  Due to the above-noted difficulty with knowing speed limits on I-45 north of I-20, I won't know if the limit is increased to 70 there until someone reports it.  I basically never have a reason to go there myself.  If you see changes, I'd like to know.

Quote from: wxfree on February 21, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
We have an update this month, with increases on I-45.  Speed limits will be 75 as far north as the Ferris city limit, about at the southern interchange with Business 45, will remain 70 in Ferris, and will increase to 70 in Dallas County as far north as I-20.  North of there the speed limit will remain at 65.

Wow, this is great news to finally get logical speed limits on that section of I-45. For years and years going northbound I've always been on the lookout for the water tower with the illustration of the yellow jacket wasp (local mascot) on the county line to know to slow way down for the artificially low speed limit in Dallas County, and frequent radar traps.

After 3+ hours driving from Houston, motorists can now continue cruising all the way to I-20.

When was the change made? I don't mind making the trip to check but it's a waste of gas if the change was just made this month and Dallas District needs a month or two to get it up.

Also, we should really get the limit lowered to like 15 just to keep the FHBs out :bigass:.

The change is expected to be ordered at the TTC meeting Thursday.  After that, it'll probably take a couple of months for the signs to be changed.  The Dallas district seems to change the signs pretty quickly.  The Fort Worth district takes longer, when they change the signs at all.  There's one from almost nine years ago, and more from one to four years ago, that they just never got around to.  They changed the signs for the removal of environmental speed limits, but took a couple of months longer than Dallas.

Yeah, remind me around the end of April and I'll make the trip south and see if anything is posted.

Which segments haven't been updated yet in Ft. Worth District? I know you probably mentioned it somewhere but searching is too difficult. Have you tried asking the district PIO? The ones I've contacted have been good about answering detailed questions, though it might take a few weeks if they need to kick it around to a few people for a definitive answer.

Quote from: dfwmapper on February 21, 2017, 11:39:00 PM
Yeah, remind me around the end of April and I'll make the trip south and see if anything is posted.

Which segments haven't been updated yet in Ft. Worth District? I know you probably mentioned it somewhere but searching is too difficult. Have you tried asking the district PIO? The ones I've contacted have been good about answering detailed questions, though it might take a few weeks if they need to kick it around to a few people for a definitive answer.

I've just happened to notice some.  Here are some of ones I remember that weren't posted as of the last time I went that way.

US 67 southwest of Dublin, 70 to 75
Loop 567 east of FM 51, 50 to 55
FM 167 south of FM 4, 45 to 35 (I saw that this one still wasn't changed today)
FM 200 west of FM 1434, 60 to 65
SH 171 south of FM 916, 50 and 60 to 55
FM 1434, 60 to 55, this was an emergency order and it was still ignored
parts of FMs 4, 51, and 56 were ordered to 75 and were never posted, those were cancelled a few years later

TxDOT is usually pretty fastidious about signing, which I appreciate.  That's why it's so noticeable when things get overlooked.  I haven't asked about it.  I have more of a wait-for-however-many-years-and-see approach.

If only every urban areas had their speed limits as high as the ones in Dallas

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

True. I've always been amazed that the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway was able to get an interstate shield on it. I guess you can thank Robert Moses for that!

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 26, 2017, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2017, 08:50:31 AM

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 26, 2017, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_278#/media/File:Interstate278enteringbrooklyn.jpg) if I go faster than 45 MPH?

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 27, 2017, 08:56:27 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2017, 08:50:31 AM

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 26, 2017, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_278#/media/File:Interstate278enteringbrooklyn.jpg) if I go faster than 45 MPH?

The 45 mph is appropriate for the BQE and Gowanus given typical traffic and geometry.

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2017, 09:01:36 AM

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 27, 2017, 08:56:27 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2017, 08:50:31 AM

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 26, 2017, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2017, 10:26:39 AM
Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_278#/media/File:Interstate278enteringbrooklyn.jpg) if I go faster than 45 MPH?

The 45 mph is appropriate for the BQE and Gowanus given typical traffic and geometry.

I'm very, very skeptical. I haven't died on the Dallas North Tollway (sample location with 50 mph advisory speed (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8474072,-96.8138022,3a,75y,183.66h,84.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr4RHAssCGqT4VD-YSOfsnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)), with a 65 mph limit, higher operating speeds, and outdated geometrics due to tight ROW?

Boy, I didn't realize how much like a NYC expressway the Dallas North Tollway was. I'm surprised that that road even has a 65mph speed limit! I'd definitely expect it to be like 50 or 55.

Quote from: compdude787 on February 28, 2017, 05:29:03 PM
Boy, I didn't realize how much like a NYC expressway the Dallas North Tollway was. I'm surprised that that road even has a 65mph speed limit! I'd definitely expect it to be like 50 or 55.

It used to be 55, but that was exposed as being an illegally low limit and a ticket trap: https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1985.asp (https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1985.asp).

Boy, people drive fast in Texas! I don't blame them though; it is a toll road, and if the tolls are set at the right price, it should experience less congestion because people won't be driving on it unless they feel that they absolutely have to.

Quote from: compdude787 on February 28, 2017, 05:35:48 PM
Boy, people drive fast in Texas! I don't blame them though; it is a toll road, and if the tolls are set at the right price, it should experience less congestion because people won't be driving on it unless they feel that they absolutely have to.

People drive fast everywhere. When you raise speed limits, the biggest change you get is increased compliance, not faster speeds.

What's everyone's rush in Texas anyway? :sombrero:

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on February 28, 2017, 06:22:08 PM
What's everyone's rush in Texas anyway? :sombrero:

To get home to our ice cold Shiner Bock  :colorful:

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on February 28, 2017, 06:22:08 PM
What's everyone's rush in Texas anyway? :sombrero:

Well, everything's bigger in Texas, so people want to get to places a bit quicker.  :-D

We have a little more this month.  The speed limit will increase from 60 to 70 along I-30 on the west side of Dallas from just west of Loop 12 to just east of Sylvan, near the Mixmaster.  This is 5.5 miles.  The first (westernmost) 2.2 miles will have a speed limit of 75 in the managed lane.

Finally. Now we just have to wait for the construction on I-35E outside of LBJ and SH 183/SH 114 to be finished so those highways can be bumped up, and I think that's everything in Dallas County.

There's an update today for northern I-35E.  It's uneven and I'm not sure it makes sense.  I haven't driven that section of road since before the rebuild started, but someone familiar with it may know why the speed limits are being set this way.

I-635 to Carrollton city limit, about 2 miles: 70
Carrollton city limit to Denton County line, about 4 miles: 65
Denton County line to Corinth city limit, about 12 miles: 70
Corinth city limit to 2 miles south of I-35, about 7 miles: 65
Last 2 miles to I-35: 70

The work continues.  This month's minute order includes a speed limit increase to 70, and 75 on the managed lanes, on SH 183 from about SH 360 to past Spur 482.  That's about 14 miles.

This month's minute order includes a speed limit increase to 70, up from 65, on the southernmost 6.5 miles of I-35E in Dallas County, from the Ellis County line to about I-20.

There have been some speed limit increases around Dallas.  The speed limit is 70 on I-35E going north from I-635, and on I-30 from west of downtown Dallas to about the Tarrant County line.  This seems to be related to completion of construction progress improving the roads.  It's unrelated to the removal of environmental speed limits, but I believe the topic is still interesting.

These later increases are related to rebuilding of the roads, not removal of environmental speed limits, but it's still on the overall topic.  This month the minute order includes an increase to 70 on I-35E from I-20 to just before the curves, near the Marsalis exit.  It also includes an increase to 70 on US 67 from just north of I-20 to I-35E.  The parallel express lanes will have a limit of 75.

From the south, staying on the main lanes, the speed limit on I-35E will be 70 from Ellis County to what I call the Zoo Curves, and on US 67 will be 70 in Ellis County, 65 at the Dallas County line to just north of I-20 where the rebuilt section starts, and then 70 on the rebuilt section to the merge.

The minute orders were strangely late.  I would have known this a week ago under normal procedures, but they weren't posted online until today.

Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

Quote from: bwana39 on January 30, 2023, 10:26:15 PM
Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

NYC isn't even in the top 25 of largest cities in the US in terms of land area.

Quote from: bwana39 on January 30, 2023, 10:26:15 PM
Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

Even if Texas's 85 mph speed limits were applied to every freeway, It would still take 10 hours to drive across the state. When you think of it, it is Amazing that America, a country founded on freedom, and longer distances, have the slowest speed limits compared to Europe. Those states act like 70-80 mph is "generous" when in reality those speed limits would be appropriate for any standard freeway and interstate highways in the middle of the wide open USA should be much higher, if not unlimited.

Quote from: bwana39 on January 30, 2023, 10:26:15 PM
Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

Hmmm.... let's fact check this...

• New York City - 302.6 mi²
• Dallas - 385.8 mi²
• Houston - 665 mi²
• Dallas County - 909 mi²

However, when we look at Metropolitan Statistical Areas which includes the suburbs....

• New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metro Area - 6,684.4 mi²
• Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metro Area - 8,268.8 mi²
• Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metro Area - 8,675.3 mi²

Quote from: MultiMillionMilerEven if Texas's 85 mph speed limits were applied to every freeway, It would still take 10 hours to drive across the state. When you think of it, it is Amazing that America, a country founded on freedom, and longer distances, have the slowest speed limits compared to Europe.

It's a lot easier to get a driver's license in the United States than it is to get a license in a country like Germany. In a nation like Germany the driver's ed courses are far more intensive. Also, Germany has far more strict rules of the road etiquette than the US. If you're on a section of the Autobahn that has no speed limit and you're driving some little econo-box putt putt car you absolutely have to get over to the right and stay well clear of the left lane(s). That way a "super car" can safely blast by going 400kph. Here in the US all sorts of jackasses will drive slow in the left lane on an Interstate as if it is their flag-waving, gun-toting, God-given right. Hell, they'll do 10-20mph under the posted speed limit to teach all the young whipper snappers a lesson. There is a lot of that nonsense going on here in Oklahoma.

The United States could probably have higher speed limits in many locations if so many of us Americans didn't drive distracted or didn't drive like selfish jerks. The way things are going we probably deserve to be punished with much slower speed limits.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PM
Here in the US all sorts of jackasses will drive slow in the left lane on an Interstate as if it is their flag-waving, gun-toting, God-given right. Hell, they'll do 10-20mph under the posted speed limit to teach all the young whipper snappers a lesson.

New England is the one exception. And the maximum speed limit is still 65 in Massachusetts.

To clarify: there are slow drivers, and there are left lane drivers, but not both. The slow drivers stay in the right lane to let those going 75-80 pass on the left. Trucks are restricted to the right two lanes, and they follow it well.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PM

Quote from: MultiMillionMilerEven if Texas's 85 mph speed limits were applied to every freeway, It would still take 10 hours to drive across the state. When you think of it, it is Amazing that America, a country founded on freedom, and longer distances, have the slowest speed limits compared to Europe.

It's a lot easier to get a driver's license in the United States than it is to get a license in a country like Germany. In a nation like Germany the driver's ed courses are far more intensive. Also, Germany has far more strict rules of the road etiquette than the US. If you're on a section of the Autobahn that has no speed limit and you're driving some little econo-box putt putt car you absolutely have to get over to the right and stay well clear of the left lane(s). That way a "super car" can safely blast by going 400kph. Here in the US all sorts of jackasses will drive slow in the left lane on an Interstate as if it is their flag-waving, gun-toting, God-given right. Hell, they'll do 10-20mph under the posted speed limit to teach all the young whipper snappers a lesson. There is a lot of that nonsense going on here in Oklahoma.

The United States could probably have higher speed limits in many locations if so many of us Americans didn't drive distracted or didn't drive like selfish jerks. The way things are going we probably deserve to be punished with much slower speed limits.

Yeah well then the focus should be on better driver training than lowering speed limits. And I always follow the keep right laws. Even the couple times in my life I hit 110-120 mph, I wasn't in the left lane. But on roads in the middle of nowhere, not much skill is required to drive 80-90 mph in a straight line. There aren't even enough cars to justify the whole left/right passing things. You just go around a car and that's it. On Long Island this is pretty much respected. Plenty of times traffic is a little congested at 50 mph and the HOV lane/Left lane is wide open.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PMIt's a lot easier to get a driver's license in the United States than it is to get a license in a country like Germany.

I have yet to see credible evidence that has anything to do with perceived differences.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PMIf you're on a section of the Autobahn that has no speed limit and you're driving some little econo-box putt putt car you absolutely have to get over to the right and stay well clear of the left lane(s).

Watch some YouTube videos of autobahn driving. It's not quite the nirvana that some make it out to be.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PMThere is a lot of that nonsense going on here in Oklahoma.

Every part of the USA has good drivers and bad drivers. No area is special. Drivers in your area drive like drivers in my area, too.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 31, 2023, 03:09:12 PMThe way things are going we probably deserve to be punished with much slower speed limits.

There is next to no decent evidence that lower speed limits make roads durably safer. While not formally tested (as far as I can tell), there are reasonable theories to why higher limits can encourage more courteous driving.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 07:34:11 PM
No road with traffic lights should ever be posted at higher than 40 mph.

I think someone needs to get out of the Northeast.

I dare you to drive this (https://goo.gl/maps/Mjcitsy5zHHB2iPn8) at 40 mph and see how painfully slow it feels. For the record, that is posted at 45 and average traffic speed tends to be somewhere closer to 50-55 mph.

Even NH 111 between Salem and Kingston is posted at 50, as are the seven southernmost miles of MA 125 (south of MA 114).

There's a traffic light, and low visibility over that hill.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 07:34:11 PM
Exactly, and the irony is they post speed limits far too high on local roads where it is actually dangerous to speed. No road with traffic lights should ever be posted at higher than 40 mph. Limited Access Highways however, should be posted at 80-90 mph, with rural interstates unlimited. But, I do think all curves on highways that you can kind of feel the G force when going around, should be set at 45 mph with speed cameras.

Wait, so the Texas 70 mph roads with stop lights...should be dug up and thrown away?

ALL ROADS that have an anecdotal report of G-forces on curves--45 mph and automated ticketing machines? Are you serious?

Are you trolling us?

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 09:47:17 PM
You're telling me there are stop lights on roads with 70 mph speed limits?? How are you supposed to stop in time if starts changing?

Yes!

Typically, there are advance warnings of an impending yellow and a lengthy yellow. I've been through several and I am not dead yet.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 09:47:17 PMBy G forces I mean if you feel the pressure while navigating the curve at the normal speed limit, then that's a signal that the speed limit should be lowered significantly for that curve and strict enforcement implemented.

Can you share evidence to substantiate that existing standards for determining curve advisory speeds are inadequate?

Quote from: Aren Cambre on January 31, 2023, 09:38:39 PM

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 07:34:11 PM
Exactly, and the irony is they post speed limits far too high on local roads where it is actually dangerous to speed. No road with traffic lights should ever be posted at higher than 40 mph. Limited Access Highways however, should be posted at 80-90 mph, with rural interstates unlimited. But, I do think all curves on highways that you can kind of feel the G force when going around, should be set at 45 mph with speed cameras.

Wait, so the Texas 70 mph roads with stop lights...should be dug up and thrown away?

ALL ROADS that have an anecdotal report of G-forces on curves--45 mph and automated ticketing machines? Are you serious?

Are you trolling us?

Yeah he is.  I don't know why we all still entertain his bullshit.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 09:47:17 PM
You're telling me there are stop lights on roads with 70 mph speed limits?? How are you supposed to stop in time if starts changing?

Oh, it gets better. There's a light on US 84 near Shallowater, TX (https://goo.gl/maps/97JPaw5FKMNXMuZa7). Wanna guess the limit there? 75 mph.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:13:12 PM
It's common sense. Advisory speed limits are unenforceable, so they are basically asking drivers to send their cars flying off the road flipping into the air. Essentially, if a road manages to change its direction 90 degrees within half a mile, the speed limit should be at least 20-30 mph lower around that curve than on any straight stretches of the highway. People flying around curves at highway speed is what causes the most accidents.

So because an advisory speed limit isn't legally binding, it doesn't exist at all? I guess all 50 state DOTs and local agencies are wasting metric shitloads of money posting all those yellow diamond warning signs, then...

If you drive too fast around a corner and you fuck up and go off the road, that's on you and that's driving too fast for conditions, which you can get a ticket for anyway. Don't need a number on a sign to tell you that.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:32:43 PM
And at speeds greater than 50 mph you can't stop in time for a traffic signal unless you can see it at least 1/3 if a mile away.

Uhh, the stopping distance at 50mph is around 13-14 car lengths depending on what source you look at. That's about 200 feet... or 0.038 miles.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:47:10 PM
(assuming 8 seconds to come to complete stop)

It does not take 8 seconds to stop from 50.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:32:43 PM
For the record I totally support that raising of speed limits in Texas, but I don't see the big deal with gradually lowering the speed limit as you approach a curve, placing a few speed cameras at the points of curvature...

I give it no more than 14 days before a Texan blows the camera away with a shotgun.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:13:12 PM
Advisory speed limits are unenforceable

Massachusetts State Police (or possibly the various city police forces within Massachusetts) has tried to enforce them. I'm thinking of one exit ramp in particular.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 31, 2023, 10:17:31 PM

Quote from: Aren Cambre on January 31, 2023, 09:38:39 PM

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 07:34:11 PM
Exactly, and the irony is they post speed limits far too high on local roads where it is actually dangerous to speed. No road with traffic lights should ever be posted at higher than 40 mph. Limited Access Highways however, should be posted at 80-90 mph, with rural interstates unlimited. But, I do think all curves on highways that you can kind of feel the G force when going around, should be set at 45 mph with speed cameras.

Wait, so the Texas 70 mph roads with stop lights...should be dug up and thrown away?

ALL ROADS that have an anecdotal report of G-forces on curves--45 mph and automated ticketing machines? Are you serious?

Are you trolling us?

Yeah he is.  I don't know why we all still entertain his bullshit.

I think it's more of a matter of his naivete knowing no bounds combined with stubborness based upon such.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 30, 2023, 10:42:13 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on January 30, 2023, 10:26:15 PM
Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

Even if Texas's 85 mph speed limits were applied to every freeway, It would still take 10 hours to drive across the state. When you think of it, it is Amazing that America, a country founded on freedom, and longer distances, have the slowest speed limits compared to Europe. Those states act like 70-80 mph is "generous" when in reality those speed limits would be appropriate for any standard freeway and interstate highways in the middle of the wide open USA should be much higher, if not unlimited.

First off, since Germany was used as comparison, Texas is approximately 1.9 times bigger than Germany (https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/texas-usa/germany). However, Germany has more people (83.2 million in 2021) than Texas (29.53 million in 2021). When we look at the population density maps (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Texas_population_map.png), we see the following areas on the east side of Texas:

• Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metro Area - 7,759,615 (26.3%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US19100-dallas-fort-worth-arlington-tx-metro-area/)
• Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metro Area - 7,206,841 (24.4%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US26420-houston-the-woodlands-sugar-land-tx-metro-area/)
• San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX Metro Area - 2,601,788 (8.8%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US41700-san-antonio-new-braunfels-tx-metro-area/)
• Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown, TX Metro Area - 2,352,426 (8.0%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US12420-austin-round-rock-georgetown-tx-metro-area/)
• McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX Metro Area - 880,356 (3.0%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US32580-mcallen-edinburg-mission-tx-metro-area/)
• Corpus Christi, TX Metro Area - 422,778 (1.4%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US18580-corpus-christi-tx-metro-area/)

When we combine the numbers, you have 21,223,804 living on the major metropolitan areas on the east side of Texas, or about 71.9% of the population. You can trace DFW, San Antonio, and Austin on the map as they are all connected by Interstate 35. Go west of I-35, and the density is extremely low, and the land is flat and dry. Add in El Paso, TX Metro Area which has a population 871,727 (2.95%) (https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US21340-el-paso-tx-metro-area/), and you are looking at the 74.8% of the Texas population in those Metro areas. I could also add in Tyler and Waco Texas to nudge up the numbers a little more, but you get the point. Loving County, Texas is the lowest populated county in the continental United States, although most counties in Texas are small in terms of land area compared to other western states.

As far as I know, there is only one stretch of road in Texas with a 85 MPH speed limit, and that's State Highway 130 for a 41 mile stretch. You will see 80 MPH on I-20 for 89 miles between Monohans and I-10 as well as a 432 mile stretch on I-10 between El Paso and  Kerrvile.... partially because there isn't much traffic and the highways are built for it. Otherwise, it's more 70-75 MPH (as if anyone really drives the speed limit).

Quote from: 1To clarify: there are slow drivers, and there are left lane drivers, but not both.

Here in Oklahoma there are plenty of motorists who drive in the left lane and go slow at the same time. It doesn't matter if it's a city street or a turnpike with a posted 80mph speed limit. "Oh the speed limit is 80? Let's drive 50."

A couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit. I can't tell if OHP has actually been stopping any vehicles for such offenses. I've literally seen troopers pass slow pokes on the right and then just keep going. It's clear the police are playing favorites over who to stop. The only way they're going to stop a slow poke for disrupting the flow of traffic is if the slow poke is also weaving around, appearing to be drunk driving.

Quote from: Aren CambreI have yet to see credible evidence that has anything to do with perceived differences.

American car accident deaths are 3 times higher per capita than than in Germany. The rate averages just over 12 per 100,000 people in the US and just under 4 per 100,000 in Germany. Teens in Germany can't drive alone before their 18th birthday.

Quote from: Aren CambreThere is next to no decent evidence that lower speed limits make roads durably safer.

I'm not arguging for speed limits to be lowered. But it is an undeniable fact many Americans routinely drive at unsafe speeds. They're either driving well above the posted speed limits or driving too fast for road conditions. Take a curve too fast and laws of physics will get involved. Just look at all the car accidents happening this week via all the icy weather across Texas, Arkansas and parts of Oklahoma. When the roads are icy and I have to drive on them I'm always far more worried about other doofus idiots driving too fast near me than I am about the ice.

The Dallas-Fort Worth metro is really bad with that issue. The amount of car accidents happening there this week is epic. But, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby. People just don't like driving carefully. Because driving with caution is for pussies. That's our culture.

Quote from: 1 on February 01, 2023, 06:55:37 AM

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 10:13:12 PM
Advisory speed limits are unenforceable

Massachusetts State Police (or possibly the various city police forces within Massachusetts) has tried to enforce them. I'm thinking of one exit ramp in particular.

These two laws appear to exist in every state: a law requiring speeds to be at or below the numeric speed limit and another law requiring speeds to be reasonable and prudent. It may be feasible to ticket a motorist over disregard of an advisory speed limit using the latter under the assumption that the advisory speed is a rational indicator of the maximum possible reasonable and prudent speed for that road (and in my experience, it almost never is).

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AM
Here in Oklahoma there are plenty of motorists who drive in the left lane and go slow at the same time.

You're not special. Welcome to every part of the USA.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMA couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit.

Around a decade ago, I got a complete dataset of TxDPS tickets going back several years. Next to no tickets were for this. I doubt OK would be different.

Traffic policing is about easily prosecutable technical fouls--mainly speeding tickets--in support of revenue, pretext stops, or "look I am doing productive work". Safety is not a priority. Therefore, things that could enhance safety do not get much attention, such as lane courtesy.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMAmerican car accident deaths are 3 times higher per capita than than in Germany. The rate averages just over 12 per 100,000 people in the US and just under 4 per 100,000 in Germany. Teens in Germany can't drive alone before their 18th birthday.

First, you're using a bad statistic as it doesn't account for exposure. A far better stat is vehicular fatalities per x miles driven. That figure is about 75% higher in the USA than Germany, not 3X. While +75% isn't great, it's not 3X.

Second, you're creating a false correlation. You need to link driver education to safety (to support your original premise that Germany's extensive drivers-ed red tape causes safer roads), and you have yet to present any evidence substantiating that.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMBut it is an undeniable fact many Americans routinely drive at unsafe speeds.

It is easily deniable. When you dig into the numbers and ask "did speed cause a crash", you're looking at a single-digit percent of fatal wrecks. That is not evidence of a speeding epidemic.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMJust look at all the car accidents happening this week via all the icy weather...

Stop there. icy weather = unusual situation in the warm-weather states you mention. Bad support of a premise of overspeed the other 363 days of the year when that unusual situation is not present.

This isn't to say that more crashes in icy weather is a wonderful thing. Rather, it is that you are supporting your premise in an unsound and easily dismissible way.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMBut, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby.

Evidence?

Quote from: Aren CambreYou're not special. Welcome to every part of the USA.

Hey, new guy, you're only 20 posts in and already sounding like a rude troll.

Quote from: Aren CambreSecond, you're creating a false correlation. You need to link driver education to safety (to support your original premise that Germany's extensive drivers-ed red tape causes safer roads), and you have yet to present any evidence substantiating that.

What is your evidence that more intensive drivers education (what you call "red tape") doesn't matter? You're grilling me as if I'm personally the keeper of US vs European driving safety stats. Whatever I think does zero to prove your point, even if I just ignored you (which might be a good idea the way this "conversation" is going).

It is a fact German motorists have to learn more techniques of driving than people in the US. Our driver's ed courses here in the US are pretty remedial. That translates into those German motorists being better prepared for driving in adverse conditions.

This looks like a legitimate argument, not a troll. Don't bite the newbies.

Quote from: Aren Cambre on February 01, 2023, 01:50:01 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMA couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit.

Around a decade ago, I got a complete dataset of TxDPS tickets going back several years. Next to no tickets were for this. I doubt OK would be different.

Traffic policing is about easily prosecutable technical fouls--mainly speeding tickets--in support of revenue, pretext stops, or "look I am doing productive work". Safety is not a priority. Therefore, things that could enhance safety do not get much attention, such as lane courtesy.

We in Colorado also have the "keep right except to pass" law on rural freeways, and I can concur that here our police tend to not enforce that law. My former boss once got in an argument with a state trooper when my boss was pulled over for "erratic driving" for weaving around slow left lane campers. He demanded that the cop give the impeding drivers tickets for breaking the left lane law. He had no luck getting the trooper to change his mind and got the ticket.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 03:20:18 PMWhat is your evidence that more intensive drivers education (what you call "red tape") doesn't matter?

The burden of proof falls on the person arguing for a point. The point that was advanced is that more driver's education means safer roads.

"Because Germany" is not proof. It arbitrarily anoints just one of many possible factors as The Only Relevant Factor^TM.

To say that the doubter has to provide evidence is an argument from ignorance fallacy.

Again, where is proof that more driver's education causes safer roads?

If we were to throw a new burden on the public, and that burden does not help with the problem, then all we have done is divert scarce, precious time and energy on a useless measure. That cannot make roads safer.

Armchair quarterbacking does not make roads safer. Evidence-backed measures might.

Exactly, and I am sure many American Drivers have the same experience as German Drivers after a fairly short amount of time, even if they weren't taught in their precious driving schools (the failure rate is 28% for the road test, so much for better driver education). Let's see:

1st Aid Class? Check, I got a B in a college level comprehensive kinesiology course that went into the basics of almost every emergency situation. And it was a full semester, not 9 days of 45 min each LOL

Minimum hours of practice. I probably had a least 1000 hours under my belt before taking the road test, including in the rain/night/urban driving.

Yearly Eye Exam? Check, I wear glasses so obviously.

Road signs? If I was born in Germany I am sure those would be just as easy as here.

Higher percentage of questions to pass theory test? Check! I only got 2 wrong out of 20, I think you pass with a 90% score in Germany. Same for the road test, I think I did 1 error, which resulted in a similar 90% score.

So what else do I need to be able to drive faster? I too, am tired of that same old driver training argument. After 117,000 miles in my life I think I am just as qualified.

^ Yet driving 75 mph on a desert two lane road in the middle of nowhere is extremely dangerous.

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2023, 09:16:01 PM
^ Yet driving 75 mph on a desert two lane road in the middle of nowhere is extremely dangerous.

No, but the issue is when the speed limit on this: (55 mph)

180 NY-27
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lwwi1SLAtiZmd2cV8

is the same as the speed limit on this: (55 mph)

Sunrise Hwy
https://maps.app.goo.gl/A2rkMrTLKgymK64G9

^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2023, 09:19:08 PM
^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

I know, but what's so weird is that NY being so conservative about highway speed limits, you would think they would want any local route to be 25 mph with speed cameras. It's completely backward even in their own system of reasoning.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 01, 2023, 11:29:08 AMThe Dallas-Fort Worth metro is really bad with that issue. The amount of car accidents happening there this week is epic. But, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby. People just don't like driving carefully. Because driving with caution is for pussies.

That's why both of my vehicles have a dash cam installed... because of the "other guy". I tried looking up the percentage of uninsured motorists in the DFW area, but the data is either several years out of date and/or is coming from legal firms. The number I see thrown around is 16%, but again, what year is that number from and what is the source?

The fact is that a car only checks that you can start it up (usually with a key). It does not check to see if you own the car or have a valid drivers license, insurance, or registration. It just doesn't mean you can legally drive the vehicle. And, if someone isn't legally driving the vehicle and following the laws regarding license, insurance, and registration, what makes you think they care about driving carefully on the roadways.

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 01, 2023, 09:26:35 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2023, 09:19:08 PM
^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

I know, but what's so weird is that NY being so conservative about highway speed limits, you would think they would want any local route to be 25 mph with speed cameras. It's completely backward even in their own system of reasoning.

That's New York City, not state.

With the exception of the Long Island freeways, they seem to post high where allowed. There's a good amount of 65 mph freeway mileage throughout the state, and 55 mph surface mileage.

Rural interstates should at least be allowed to 70 mph, and surface routes to 60 or 65 mph, but that's out of the DOTs control.

It has to be something with that particular district possibly, and reluctancy to post anything above 55 mph.

I agree it's backwards. Both of those freeways on Long Island should be 65 mph, which would be allowable by current law.